Originally Posted by RDSchley
I just read this and laughed. So now you're going to open up by saying, "I'm right, admit you're wrong!" Lol, learn how to have a rational argument or just stop.
I'll run it by the rest of the group very simply and explain why using close combat in Psychic form is a bad idea.
Oh goodie, and I'll correct every mistake you make along the way.
If you need recovery that badly, just use ChestoRest or Wish support. Like I said earlier (which you probably ignored, go figure), stop assuming that Meloetta must be played like other Psychic types. Meloetta is not Reuniclus. It does not play like Reuniclus. Stop trying to equate it to Reuniclus.
Slow mons generally get away with being slow because they have some form of recovery. Meloetta does not. No, it's not fast. Stop saying it is. 90 speed is not going to get you to sweep.
Lol, let's recap this, shall we?
You: Meloetta is slow.
Me: It's not slow. Base 90 speed is decent, above average even.
You: Meloetta is not fast. Stop saying it is.
I never said Meloetta was fast, just plenty fast enough. And let me ask you something. Any competent player will tell you that Pokemon like Mamoswine, Rotom-W, and Heatran are capable of sweeping teams, so what makes you think that an even faster Pokemon like Meloetta isn't?
As for playing defensively, just drop that it's going to be played that way. It cannot recover and it has horrible resistances (Psychic, and an immunity to ghost).
Oh, another strawman! Quote where I said that you should play it defensively. You know which sets I've mentioned? Hone Claws stallbreaker (offensive), SubCM (offensive), and for the P. forme, mixed attacker (offensive). I'll I've said about Meloetta defensively is that it has insane special bulk to compliment its decent speed and high SpA.
Quit putting words in my mouth. They taste terrible.
2. Relic Song is bad. If you are relying on a 20% chance to sleep then there is no reasoning with you. I guess I should rely on Ancient Power to give me the 1+ boosts. It's a straight up gimmick. Yeah, its cool when it does sleep but if that is what you are using it for then you're going to lose.
Again, it would really help to read my posts instead of assuming what I said. I said specifically that no one said you should be relying on that 20% sleep chance. That sleep ratio is not the reason to use Meloetta and does not make Relic Song a great move, but it makes it dangerous for any Pokemon to switch into that isn't a Ghost type or immune to sleep.
3. Tyranitar is not switching in on Meloetta. Period. Why do you keep trying to insist someone is going to switch tyranitar into this thing? You song like a fool saying that.
You do realize that you were the one to suggest Tyranitar would switch into Meloetta, right? I think that makes you the "fool." All I said is that with Close Combat, Meloetta has a much easier time getting past Tyranitar, which is usually the bane of most Psychic types. That's all.
Ow, that must hurt, shooting yourself in the foot like that.
I guess since you insist on using Relic Song as a reliable sleep inducing move that the 'skill level' of the people you play against would sadly switch tyranitar into this thing.
Two problems here. First, another strawman. I specifically have said that Relic Song should not be relied on as a sleep move, but you insist I said it should anyways. Not even surpised at this point, to be honest. Next you just throw ad hominem at tme and try to say that I just fight low skilled people. Amongst all this, you have yet to make a solid point.
This scenario is like switching Salamence into Mamoswine because you suspect an EQ not an Ice Shard. So I have no idea what on earth you are talking about here.
Again, your idea, not mine. As a matter of fact...
Originally Posted by Me in my last post
Funny how you insulted zerofield on his reading skills in that other thread and then fail miserably to actually read my last post.
4. Resistances do in fact matter. Why are steels used to much? Resistances. Stats are great but resistances are almost better in every situation. Latias has much better resists thus making Latias bulkier against those types. But again, this is Apples to Oranges. Latias is played entirely differently do it being, you know, fast.. oh and has recover... and operates in all kinds of Weather... something Meloetta can't say it does.
Yes, resistances do matter. I never said they didn't, just that the Normal/Psychic typing isn't the end of the world for Meloetta. If lack of resistances are that much of an issue, why is Reuniclus OU? Or Blissey and Chansey? Or Snorlax last Gen? Sometimes raw stats and a niche is all you need, but again, you are going to blow up every weakness you see to such an extent that you make a Pokemon sound like crap when it isn't. And how exactly is Latias operating in weather more easily than Meloetta? The only real advantage it has is using Surf in the Rain. Yay.
5. Meloetta is predictable. I'm starting to think you don't know what it means. It'll carry Relic Song if it wants to switch, Psychic-attack, A fighting move and filler. What else is there? Thunder? Energy Ball? Trick Room is done with better mons but I guess it's possible. Just fear psychic stab and it's almost guaranteed to carry a fighting move of some kind since it needs some way of getting through steel types.
So just by looking at it on team preview, you can pretty much tell what set it's running? Because when you say "predictable," that's what you imply. Let's look at your example a while ago.
Originally Posted by You
So according to your example, a player might switch Tyranitar into Meloetta only to find themselves face to face with the P. forme. Now they have to switch out, waste momentum, and send something in to take a Close Combat or hope the opponent doesn't "over predict" and kill the switch in. Sounds like a big misprediction and possible misprediction to follow. But if Meloetta were predictable, that kind of thing wouldn't happen.
Honestly, just look at it. If it runs Relic Song, it becomes a fast physical sweeper with Normal/Fighting typing. When it's not, it's a special tank with Normal/Psychic typing. But until you see it, you have no idea which one it will turn out to be. It doesn't get much more unpredictable than that. So really, stop using the predictablility argument. It's terrible.
What exactly does this thing threaten?
I thought the term "stallbreaker" would have clued you in. And the P. forme has the greatest combination of speed and offense of any Pokemon in OU. Put the pieces together.
Or fully check in the OU metagame that other mons do better?
It's probably the greatest Gengar counter in the world, which is kinda cool.
What about it's bulky-ness? Again, specially, it's pretty good but needs wish support and/or heal bell. In which case I ask why even bother and stick to Blissey or Jirachi or Latias or a host of many other specially bulky mons that share it's typings.
Jirachi and Latias are weaker. Jirachi is considerably less bulky on the special side. Latias doesn't get past Tyranitar without HP Fighting. Blissey for offense...lol.
How does it fair in weather?
Lol, Rain support is great for it. It lets it run a 120 bp Thunder with a 60% to paralyze whatever it hits.
I see the potential sure, but honestly, the OU metagame is flooded with bulky psychics and normals already.
5 Psychic types that could even be somewhat considered bulky, and 2 Normal types. Flooded, you say?
As for just pure power, I've already listed a host of other mons that do it. You even provided Latias which now that I think about it, can do Meloetta's job better too.
I must have missed that, seeing as how you have yet to name one Psychic type as powerful as Meloetta. Reuniclus is close, but I've already mentioned the issues with that.
What pray-tell do you want Meloetta to switch in on? Ghost moves? Weak-sauce special moves? Just an example, lets say that yes, Meloetta 99% of the time scares Tyranitar off. A Fireblast from a Tyranitar still does about 30% to a max hp, 0 sp.def investment Meloetta. That is before Rocks, and Sandstorm damage.
Hmm, good question. What could the Pokemon with greatest special bulk of any OU Pokemon bar the pink blobs possibly switch into?
I'm sure you'll whine that this is not the right way to use Meloetta then please provide me a stat spread that is logically sound. I guess 252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP?
Originally Posted by Blue Harvest
Quoting for truth.
So, again a standard tyranitar, a pokemon in which Meloetta would love to switch in on, cannot scare standard mixed-attacker Tyranitar out because it cannot 1hKO it with close combat like you suggested. Close combat only does about 65-77%. with the -1 def/sp def on Meloetta, this puts it in danger of being crunched to death.So you cannot come in on tyraniter who Fire Blasts you (brings you down to 70%) then try to scare it out with a close combat. You'll only do 70% then it'll crunch you on the same turn, possibly killing you. I didn't run the calcs on the incoming crunch against a meloetta with -1 def from CC use. I think it's safe to assume it would KO a 64% (Sandstorm damage) Meloetta, but even if it didn't, I don't think your meloetta would be of much use anymore after that hit.
Lol, now I know you haven't played with Meloetta. You don't switch Meloetta into Tyranitar, silly. You use Close Combat to beat Tyranitar if it tries to come in and stop you. If you know what you're doing, you should hopefully have at least one Hone Claws up, which ensures the OHKO. And what item are you running exaclty? A 4 Atk +0 LO Close Combat does 82.18% - 97.03% to 252/4 Tyrnaitar, an 58% chance to OHKO after SR.
Sorry, Meloetta isn't that great. That calcs proved it against your scenario.
No offense, but your calc was terrible. You pretty much gave yourself the best scenario without actually researching what items and strategies Meloetta actually runs, or how to use it.
I'm sure you'll say something about relic song or Switching into something else but in all honesty, you're not selling Meloetta very well. and you haven't provided a moveset that is plausible or provided any calcs against things that would truly fear Meloetta, I have... and they don't look good for it. Yeah it can 1hko some things but again and again and again.. why use this thing over X? Stop dodging the question and give me a reason to use this thing over Latias, Blissey, Reuniclus, Terrakion, Lucario, Chansey, Jirachi, heck Metagross?
Here's a collection of quotes by yours truly.
As for your Reuniclus comparison, Meloetta's 100/77/128 bulk is actually better than Reuniclus's 110/75/85 bulk, and it also has an awesome ability in Serene Grace.
Terrakion has twice the weaknesses Melotta has, and two of Meloetta's weaknesses are hardly common. Meloetta also has the advantage of a much higher speed stat, letting it outspeed Pokemon like Latios, Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Dugtrio, and Alakazam, all of which can be threats to Terrakion.
Not only is Reuniclus slower than Christmas, it's less bulky and less powerful. It also somewhat struggles to get past Tyranitar since it has low speed and relies on a shaky Focus Blast, while Meloetta breezes by with Close Combat.
Scarf Terrakion is a revenge killer. Meloetta's P. forme is built to sweep mid to late game. They're two different Pokemon with two different roles. Not only that, but Scarf Terrakion lacks the power that Meloetta with a Life Orb has, cannot switch moves, and struggles to sweep teams when it's trapped into one move.
The only other OU Psychic types that even come close as special tanks are Reuniclus and Latias. Neither of them has quite the power or special bulk that Meloetta has, and each has other problems that keep it from outclassing Meloetta. That's what Meloetta does. It's a Psychic type special tank, and one that can get past Tyranitar without leaning on an unreliable Focus Blast or a puny HP Fighting.
It's designed to have strong offense while also taking advantage of strong bulk. It's speed and slightly higher SpA give it a stronger offensive presence than Reuniclus, and it has WAY more power than Jirachi. There's a reason that specially offensive Jirachi is so rare.
Because those other Pokemon don't have the speed that Meloetta has (again, there are 8 Pokemon between Terrakion and Meloetta-P in regards to base speed), they don't threaten with the occasional sleep, and they often have problems with Pokemon like Skarmory and Gliscor that Meloetta doesn't have.
Yeah, pretty much. And [Lucario's] walled by Ghosts without Crunch and Gliscor without Ice Punch.
[Terrakion is] still slower, still issues with Skarmory and Gliscor unless you run SD/CB and those base 110-120 Pokemon unless you run RP/Scarf.
These are all reason I've given, plus you might find some others in this post if you would just read it. I never dodged the question. You've just been dodging the answers.
It doesn't form any spectacular combos (like scizor+Rotom-W) as far as I know either. Honestly I'm trying my best here to think of a way to use this thing and I'm not seeing it. Rain team? It gets Thunder but so do a lot of other pokemon.. maybe? How about double or triples? It sets up Trick Room.
I'm tired of naming the sets that myself and many DW players have actually found to work. If you keep ignoring the tried and true sets that I keep mentioning, then what point is there in even bringing this up again?
It DOES learn Work Up which may be useful to it... So maybe Relic Song, Close Combat, Work up, Psychic(Shock)? Without recovery it'll be hard pressed to really boost but I guess this is plausible. You could even replace Relic Song with Shadow Ball/Hidden Power to get around Reuniclus/other psychics and just go with that. But then what does it threaten with this set? What can it come in on, threaten, then set up without being checked? Tyranitar is a no go as stated above. Lucario I guess. I'm not running calcs on nearly every pokemon in OU but do you really want to switch this thing in on something you don't resist, take a chunk of damage then attempt to boost with only 90 speed? I'm not so sure I would. Maybe some wouldn't mind but I don't like the idea of slowly being chipped away or being punched in the face by a possible Scizor praying I can sweep off of +1 atk/sp atk with only 90 speed. I know some mons get away with it but generally thats because they are really bulky/have recovery of some kind (gliscor)/have resistances/ability that supports the sweep/etc.
Relic Song pretty much is a setup move that does a little damage and might put something to sleep. Why would you run Work Up and Relic Song? No wonder you think Meloetta sucks! You don't have the foggiest clue how to use it! As far as switch ins, many Pokemon like Tentacruel, Jellicent, Gengar, and Blissey might use special attacks that are ineffective against Meloetta that it wouldn't mind switching in on. But just because Meloetta has great bulk doesn't mean you should switch it in every chance you get. That bulk is great for letting it survive some attacks from would-be revenge killers, something that frailer Pokemon like Lucario cannot do. If you waste its valuable health trying to switch in every now and then, you're just using it wrong.
Shadowball/Shadowclaw/Hidden Power whatever/Thunder/Energy ball
Any other decent sets that may possibly work no matter how sub-par Meloetta is?
For once, you almost come up with a decent set, but no.
252 SpA, 4 Atk, 252 Spe
This is one of the Meloetta-A sets that myself and many DW players, people who actually know what they're doing, have found tried and true. It breaks key members of stall teams down the middle, which is great for balanced offensive teams.
232 Atk, 84 SpA, 192 Spe
And this is one of the best ways to use Meloetta-P. Throw around Close Combats, kill Skarm and Jellicent with Thunder (or TBolt outside of Rain) and Gliscor with HP Ice. They're also useful if you want to remain in Aria forme, in which case Psychic is just a great STAB to have. It also nails Gengar in P. forme, who is also immune to Close Combat.
edit: it doesn't even resist poison. lol
This was either a joke, a bad trolling attempt, or really dumb. I'm having a hard time deciding which.