You are right that Crystal is very characterized, but she is not very developed.
^I was just saying that his claim about... you-know-what wasn't true. Everything else was his own valid opinion. Although Crystal's presentation in the series was probable less than desirable, I do think that the "lack of character development" aspect isn't always bad as it is in this case. Isn't always.
Last edited by matt0044; 28th February 2013 at 1:50 AM.
Huh, I was always under the impression that Crys developed because she had to start over. While she started off seemingly "perfect" I rather liked that when she felt down and tied her arms together.
“...This is a tricky problem, huh. I really, really want to see the other Heroes... and if it works out, I want to make friends with them! If I made friends with six Heroes, I’d be an awesome mage! We could even conquer the world!”
-Flatt Escardos, Fate Strange Fake3DS Friend Code: 1306-5187-6204
I can't bring a Pokemon who's not strong at all!
You've got mega watts of courage in this small body.
she accepted someone who she thought wasn't strong, because she came to value courage. if that isn't character dev then i dunno what is.
they're both linked, and crys had a developed personality sure. but what you don't get is that kusaka pressed her 'reset' button when he gave her that failure sub-arc of hers. we learn that she's basically a perfectionist afraid of failure, so she was afraid to try again until her mom set her straight, cue training montage. isn't that character development, to overcome fear of failure and failure itself? you may argue "but she's the same person so there's no character development".... no. she did, she started over and it made her into a new person.
I guess that's something most people don't think off. character development happen in different ways and some of them aren't that noticeable as others.
Both you and Pokemanaic make a point. Crys developed more than what we think.
When Crystal was completely down about her failure to understand and capture Suicune, she lost self-confidence and her ability to capture a Pokemon. Her mom had to get her some sense back in that brain of hers.
Which was her drive for her character development.
All the Pokedex owners had a character development in a different way.
Red, Gold, Yellow and Sapphire got it from traveling and meeting different people.
Blue, Silver, White and Black got it from facing their trauma or past. well for Black and White for it the feeling of having their trust in their Pokemon broken, but I see that as traumatic.
Crystal, Green, Ruby (on the harsh way) got it from failing. Crystal when she failed to capture Suicune, Green when he lost to Red in the Pokemon league and Ruby when he lost the beauty contest and chased poor Mimi away.
The Sinnoh trio and Emerald got one through friendship. Platinum opened up to Dia and Pearl and Emerald did that with Ruby and Sapphire.
Enter the world of imagination:
Do we see how she became less of a nagger?
Was it established in some way that she had a fear for failure before it actually happened?
In the context of what happened with Mega, it seems more like Crystal is testing Mega before she lets it join her team. It could have been development if it had happened over a longer period of time, but it all happened in the same setting and round.
Something that is contrived is something that appears to come out of nowhere. It has no build up or post explanation and is there to move the plot along. It exist because an author is unable or incapable to connect ideas in a meaningful or proper way.
I don't recall Crystal actually having a problem with the fear of failure until she actually failed. If there is no previous evidence of this problem, then the plot built around it is contrived. If she said things like "I can't fail this", or "I refuse to lose" before that, then you could make that argument. I, however, don't remember Crystal ever bringing that up until she actually failed. If that was a part of her personality and previous characterization, then it should have been foreshadowed earlier to clearly establish the "man vs self" conflict. Foreshadowing makes events in the future more believable. Otherwise, the conflict is "man vs contrived sub-plot". Her sub-plot/character arc (if you could call it that) is a contrived voyage that serves only to get her to the Whirl Islands, meet Gold and Silver, and continue the over-arching plot of the series (at that time).
Does Crystal have a personality? Yes.
Is it a good one? Kinda.
Does Crystal have plots and sub-plots that flow out of her motivations? Yes.
Are some of them contrived? Very much so.
Does Crystal have character development? No.
a. see what i was getting at? you said development doesn't have to be dark and emo, and yet you contradict yourself with the very next line stating that there must be some negative part of her that we see her get over in some fashion. this, my friends, is what i meant by hollywood rearing its ugly head. i'll explain more later.
b. yes she became less of a nagger. you forgot all the times she's berated gold about his not-well-thought-of plans in gsc and emerald, and how she's put her trust in him in HGSS. but i guess you missed that didn't you.
c. development is development, no other way around it. it means progress. see, we're looking at it differently. here, i'll provide an example.
- you see development like a city upgrading its technology, infrastructure, and government. say, like new york city. over the years it has built itself from the log cabins of the 1600s to the metal skyscrapers of today. that's you.
- i on the other hand, view development as not only that, but it also counts when a city is destroyed by natural or man-made causes, such as typhoons and sorts. everything in sight is wiped, but the people build again, fresh off a clean slate, picking themselves back up and improving on what was previously built.
THAT up there also counts as development, it's just that the point of improvement is back at the starting line. crystal underwent the same development koga, bruno, will, and karen did. their slate got wiped clean with a chance of a new life and the initiative to improve oneself. there's the negative part you said, but you imagine it like some kind of epiphany like they do on the avengers, spiderman, dark knight rises, etc.
crystal was afraid of failure. look at these scans.
hey i'm crystal, i'm proud of my capturing skills, she even says "SHOW OFF", here's a free demo
she does everything in her power to capture suicune not just because of curiosity, but also because of pride
she's starting to fail now
eusine's failed for years and he still has the drive to go after suicune
yet only after 1 failure, she fails in the skill she's so proud of. see, she even says "I CAN'T DO IT" after only ONE failure.
if that doesn't tell you that she's a perfectionist who stumbles at the first rock in the road (aka afraid of failure) then you need help.
let's start with the famous illiad! how convenient was it that an arrow struck achilles on the spot where he was vulnerable? how convenient was it that voldemort gave a piece of his being to harry effectively giving harry potter a total of 2 lives? how convenient was it that aragorn was an unsung king of gondor, so that gathering all those spirits for the final battle was a cinch?
pokemon special is not perfect i admit, but to say that crystal's arc doesn't feel natural and because of that it means she doesn't have any development whatsoever is a load of tripe. open yourself to a new part of storytelling, which is why i find asian work to be fascinating nowadays, simply because they have a different way of presenting things.
Chapter 9 of Write Great Fiction - Plot and Structure by James Scott Bell says: "What makes a plot truly memorable is not all of the action, but what the action does to the character. We respond to the character who changes, who endures the crucible of the story only to emerge a different person at the end...What deepens a plot is when characters grow. Events happen and should have an impact on the characters. Are there novels where the characters don't change? Sure. But these are not usually classified as 'enduring'...Your lead character should be a different person at the other end of the arc." [Emphasis not mine].
How I view character development is not my opinion, it is the actual way that writers develop good characters. Resetting a character does not in any way meet these guidelines. Characters that do not change are not memorable.
Everything you showed either did not actually show any foreshadowing to her failure and character flaws (some didn't even have the words you used to describe them at all), or it showed this during or after the her failure (meaning it wasn't foreshadowing). Therefore, my point still stands.
Not all plots are contrived. Some plots write themselves when settings and characters are created. As I said, "Something that is contrived is something that appears to come out of nowhere. It has no build up or post explanation and is there to move the plot along. It exist because an author is unable or incapable to connect ideas in a meaningful or proper way." These kind of contrivances are things that happen in the plot and not in the creation of the plot. These have no build up, foreshadowing, or post explanation (unlike the examples you gave which had build up, foreshadowing, or post explanation [the latter for that Harry chap where it was established earlier on, but we didn't know that it applied to him until afterward]).
Crystal kicking Gold should not be viewed as "they've gotten closer in terms of friendship". Here in the real world, we call that "physical abuse". Guys, you need to stop thinking that how she treats Gold is a funny thing to watch. Your reaction to it is starting to creep me out. Could you please stop? For me?
Yes, I like to nitpick, but I don't think that it is as bad as people say it is. It is an essential aspect of higher criticism; something which most people in the academic world hail to be a good thing. I am more than happy to talk about the strengths of the Manga as a whole, but when there is something that needs to be brought up, I will bring it up. Could I use some work in my presentation? Sure, I am fairly new at the art of criticism and analysis, but that is just me. That doesn't mean that nitpicking in itself is a bad thing.
If you really think that most of what I said factors into personal taste, then you really shouldn't let it get to you.
Note: All emoticons exist for the sole purpose of avoiding the Online Disinhibition Effect. Let's try to be nice and not flame each other (that goes double for me).
Last edited by Trutown; 1st March 2013 at 5:25 AM.
here, i'll even use a person's view on how a story is made:
Kurt Vonnegut's How to Write a Short Story: Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To hell with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.
does that mean though that mr. vonnegut here speaks fact? because according to his logic sherlock holmes, nancy drew and hardy boys aren't pieces of fine literature at all.
i presented crystal in links which conveyed some with a little sarcasm, and some with truth. i'll make it literally clear for you.
"I fought with a very strong Pokemon today. I can't capture anymore. I can't do it, mum."
you can see that she even understands what eusine feels, seeing as she has pride in her capturing skills too. take note she sees team rocket as "competitors" and not as "evil goons".
Crystal: I don't usually do this.
Eusine: I guess you're really .... using an attack you don't normally use.
Crystal: Don't you feel the same way? .... I'm sure you'd hate to let Suicune land in their hands.
eusine might be a 1-dimensional character who loves kissing crystal's hand, but there's no denying he's gotten over failure/isn't afraid of failure.
Crystal: Where're you going?
Eusine: To go after Suicune of course.
take note he's been doing that for years.
africans (especially tribal minded ones) practice female circumcision by placing a piercing into you-know-what. i perceive this as physical abuse, but to them it's a rite of growing up. who am i to say it's bad because i see it as bad? there's no absolutes in this world unless it destroys all of us, and crystal hitting gold signifies friendship is no different to superman and batman's friendship, even if batman's only ever considered supes as a "working partner".
tl;dr open your mind to other cultures. your culture and environment you grew up on isn't the one absolute, and it applies here.
I think this is not directly connected about the culture something.
It's just an expression of like Ice Age, guys push each other to express concern.
(And we can see this plot in the OP of Pokemon anima High Touch, Dawn push Ash instead.)
And here is to express Crys's awkward state.
Speaking from an Asian prospective, it is true that when ever a guy annoys a girl, she usually end up hitting him;then she laugh afterwards.Its this kind of family bonding that we Asian have after spending a lot of time with each other.If you step into an Asian classroom; you will always see this.
This is what we call teasing.
Believe it or not, I used to agree with everything you said once. Then I took a literature analysis class at University and learned otherwise. This is a stance that the overwhelming majority of writers take on characters.
If the "girls kicking guys" thing is supposed to be a prevalent thing in their culture, that does not make it any better. I have every right to criticize it. People outside of Western cultures criticize Western Culture all of the time. That is how we all (that is to say, mankind) point out our flaws and learn from them, by seeing what other people say about us.
I do understand what I am criticizing. Pokemon Adventures is a Pokemon comic book series. That still doesn't make your point accurate. When literature teachers analyze literature, they do so with a very open mindset. If they "don't understand the scope", it is because the author is unable to convey the scope and ideas in a proper or meaningful way.
I have great respect for other cultures, but when other cultures (even my own) do things that are wrong then we should call them out on it. I don't believe that my culture is absolute and I can think of many things that are wrong with my culture. I appeal to a higher authority here, the higher idea of "rightness" and "wrongness".
Let's take a look at her attempt on Lugia. Crystal was at ground level when she kicked the ball. Lugia is seventeen and one tenths feet tall (approximately 5.2 meters tall). Let's assume that she is twenty feet away at the least and that Lugia is standing straight up (a 90 degree angle). She would have to kick the ball 26.3 feet up in the air at a 70.74 degree angle.
Now we don't actually have the extra numbers to find the amount of force behind the kick (we don't have the mass of a pokeball, how fast she accelerated it [though it would have to be pretty fast], the velocity of her kick, or how stiff her body was at the time), but we can get some other observations. The picture seems to show it moving at a fast and constant rate. She is a smaller person than an average soccer/football player (since she is eleven), so the acceleration and velocity of her kicks would be higher than a regular person.
Even without all of the data, we can conclude that she has incredible strength in her legs. Kicking someone with that strong of a leg wouldn't necessarily break someone's bones, but it would leave a very large bruse. After the doing it for the first time, you would think that she would realize that she can really hurt someone doing that and stop.
Are we talking about Crystal still? The last thing I read was Crystal kicking Gold in the face. I thought it was done for humor reasons. Is there another reason behind the kick that I missed? You guys have been typing really long and detailed stuff on...whatever that I couldn't follow.
Parena or Serecham both equal Serena+Pancham! Sereevee or Serevee equals Serena+Eevee!
Lol what is wrong with you guys? The kick is comedic, lol. Also, this IS Pokemon. Not the real world.
This is a a manga guys. No need to throw in the calcs or anything.
Credits to Sworn Metalhead
it's like telling gordon ramsay, 15 michelin starred chef, that his food sucks because he's an arsehole. it has no basis whatsoever in context yet you still do it because you can. double standard much? does his attitude translate to how good the food he prepares is? does it make sense, that you "respect other cultures" but you condemn their practices which are part of their culture? you would be a very very bad diplomat trutown.
crystal kicking gold is played for humor, that's it. it's part of her personality, it's part of who she is. we've strayed far from our topic, it seems we're treading on dangerous moral middle ground here lol. it's a minefield, and it's partly my fault for laying them.
i'll provide another example: arabs at work hate people who do a great job and passing the credit to another. at japan meanwhile, workers love that. if i were to do a series about a factory worker who saves his company by pulling the strings from behind the shadows and sell them to the middle east, my series would certainly fail. if i sold it in japan the opposite would most likely happen. THIS is called the difference between cultures, and i know you'll understand. this is a generalization btw, with all things constant, before you throw me under the bus.
my points again are:
-crystal has a developed personality, no two ways about it.
-nothing is absolute, character development included. fiction-wise, the only things absolute are the ones that can be measured (grammar, spelling, format). nothing else.
-pokespe is made for kids, which is why your interpretation of "bodily harm" doesn't work when it's played for laughs. i don't see any japanese feminist movement petitioning whoever's publishing pokespe to shut it down because of gold's supposed broken bones.
-ronald weasley had a reset button. rowling pressed it in book seven. are you going to say he's not a developed character too?
tl;dr you're reading too much into this .. but what can i say, i'm getting the impression you don't read everything i type anyway. i feel sad but hey this is the internet. for all i know you're trolling me, and if you are you're doing a great, great job.
Last edited by e9310103838; 2nd March 2013 at 10:56 AM.
@jasper222 I like this guy. He can be rude and stand-off but I admire how he doesn't give in. I wish I had such tenacity and way with words when it comes to these kind of matters.
@Trutown & @Honeyichigo You must really hate a lot of cartoons then.
Last edited by matt0044; 2nd March 2013 at 1:56 PM.