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Thread: Unpopular opinions about Pokemon manga

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    He stated that characters should develop over time and that Crystal does not do so, not that Crystal has no personality.
    Actually, he did say that (unless I suddenly suffered brain damage recently). In addition to the former so you were correct there.
    Last edited by matt0044; 27th February 2013 at 9:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Actually, he did say that (unless I suddenly suffered brain damage recently). In addition to the former so you were correct there.
    He did say, "to be honest, most of the older characters don't have much characterization beyond their stereotypes". Yes, he did say that Crystal has no personality afterward, but the general impression I got from reading his post is that the earlier characters in Pokemon Adventures have little characterization. you equated characterization to development, so I decided to set you straight.

    You are right that Crystal is very characterized, but she is not very developed.

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    ^I was just saying that his claim about... you-know-what wasn't true. Everything else was his own valid opinion. Although Crystal's presentation in the series was probable less than desirable, I do think that the "lack of character development" aspect isn't always bad as it is in this case. Isn't always.
    Last edited by matt0044; 28th February 2013 at 1:50 AM.

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    Huh, I was always under the impression that Crys developed because she had to start over. While she started off seemingly "perfect" I rather liked that when she felt down and tied her arms together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00poke_maniac View Post
    Huh, I was always under the impression that Crys developed because she had to start over. While she started off seemingly "perfect" I rather liked that when she felt down and tied her arms together.
    this guy gets it. but more below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Backstory does not equal development. Backstory can be a force that leads to character development, but the two things are not the same. Backstory usually falls under "characterization". Characterization is the setting up of a character through their speech, thoughts, appearances, motivations, and actions. Having three jobs falls under this category, her personality (which never changes) falls under this category, her "sensibility" falls under this category, and being a "career woman" falls under this category. How Emerald reacts to Crystal does not give her development, it gives Emerald characterization.
    backstory doesn't mean development sure. but it forms personality, and what we saw of crystal on her introduction was that she was a teenager who had a firm hold on reality and what her life was, unlike gold who had no direction and silver who was only pointing towards revenge. personality is not character development since personality only changes or improves through character development, and i was talking about personality here not character development, but sure i'll humor you. yeah redundancy whoo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Crystal never developed before, during, or after the story. She was very characterized, but never developed. A character cannot have character development before the story even starts. Character development always happens inside the story. If it happens outside of the story we are being told then it is characterization because it is setting her up for the story we are told.
    right, and the whole re-training to kick pokeballs never happened. sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Characters in stories always need to develop. If a character is already developed before the story even starts, then that character will not be interesting. Crystal is "boring" (I'm using your words here and not the ones I would necessarily use) because she leaves the adventure as the exact same person she was when she started. Dynamic characters (characters that develop over time) are better than static characters (characters that do not develop) because we get to compare who they were at the beginning to who they now are at the end. Character development is the pay off of the conflict that they go through. If they do not develop, then we have no payoff and no reason to care.
    see this is where lots of western media influence rears its ugly head. hollywood has influenced us that character development has to have a dark emo part somewhere in the middle. crystal has developed over time, she wasn't the nagger she originally was, she got over her fear of failure, and what do you know, we have had character development in a few panels!

    I can't bring a Pokemon who's not strong at all!
    You've got mega watts of courage in this small body.

    she accepted someone who she thought wasn't strong, because she came to value courage. if that isn't character dev then i dunno what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    He did not make that argument and the parallel you thought of was also really bad. He stated that characters should develop over time and that Crystal does not do so, not that Crystal has no personality.

    It does not matter what medium we are experiencing the story through, characters should always change and develop within the story. Your comparison makes it seem like you believe that the medium that we experience the story through allows the author to ignore certain literary practices that are required of a good story. Genre is not an argument.
    but he did make that argument, that crys had no personality.

    they're both linked, and crys had a developed personality sure. but what you don't get is that kusaka pressed her 'reset' button when he gave her that failure sub-arc of hers. we learn that she's basically a perfectionist afraid of failure, so she was afraid to try again until her mom set her straight, cue training montage. isn't that character development, to overcome fear of failure and failure itself? you may argue "but she's the same person so there's no character development".... no. she did, she started over and it made her into a new person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    see this is where lots of western media influence rears its ugly head. hollywood has influenced us that character development has to have a dark emo part somewhere in the middle. crystal has developed over time, she wasn't the nagger she originally was, she got over her fear of failure, and what do you know, we have had character development in a few panels!

    they're both linked, and crys had a developed personality sure. but what you don't get is that kusaka pressed her 'reset' button when he gave her that failure sub-arc of hers. we learn that she's basically a perfectionist afraid of failure, so she was afraid to try again until her mom set her straight, cue training montage. isn't that character development, to overcome fear of failure and failure itself? you may argue "but she's the same person so there's no character development".... no. she did, she started over and it made her into a new person.
    And that's one of the things I hate. People won't look farther than what their eyes see.

    I guess that's something most people don't think off. character development happen in different ways and some of them aren't that noticeable as others.
    Both you and Pokemanaic make a point. Crys developed more than what we think.

    When Crystal was completely down about her failure to understand and capture Suicune, she lost self-confidence and her ability to capture a Pokemon. Her mom had to get her some sense back in that brain of hers.
    Which was her drive for her character development.

    All the Pokedex owners had a character development in a different way.
    Red, Gold, Yellow and Sapphire got it from traveling and meeting different people.
    Blue, Silver, White and Black got it from facing their trauma or past. well for Black and White for it the feeling of having their trust in their Pokemon broken, but I see that as traumatic.
    Crystal, Green, Ruby (on the harsh way) got it from failing. Crystal when she failed to capture Suicune, Green when he lost to Red in the Pokemon league and Ruby when he lost the beauty contest and chased poor Mimi away.
    The Sinnoh trio and Emerald got one through friendship. Platinum opened up to Dia and Pearl and Emerald did that with Ruby and Sapphire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    this guy gets it. but more below.
    No he doesn't, but I'll entertain you for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    backstory doesn't mean development sure. but it forms personality, and what we saw of crystal on her introduction was that she was a teenager who had a firm hold on reality and what her life was, unlike gold who had no direction and silver who was only pointing towards revenge. personality is not character development since personality only changes or improves through character development, and i was talking about personality here not character development, but sure i'll humor you. yeah redundancy whoo!
    Crystal has personality, yes, but she has no development.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    right, and the whole re-training to kick pokeballs never happened. sure.
    That was not development, that was an 80s montage without the awesome music. She never learns from it and goes back to being the way she was before immediately afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    see this is where lots of western media influence rears its ugly head. hollywood has influenced us that character development has to have a dark emo part somewhere in the middle. crystal has developed over time, she wasn't the nagger she originally was, she got over her fear of failure, and what do you know, we have had character development in a few panels!

    I can't bring a Pokemon who's not strong at all!
    You've got mega watts of courage in this small body.

    she accepted someone who she thought wasn't strong, because she came to value courage. if that isn't character dev then i dunno what is.
    No, that is not the influence of western media, that is just an aspect of good story telling as it has evolved over the years. Development doesn't have to be dark and emo, it just has to exist. There must be a negative part of her personality that we SEE her get over in some fashion.

    Do we see how she became less of a nagger?

    Was it established in some way that she had a fear for failure before it actually happened?

    In the context of what happened with Mega, it seems more like Crystal is testing Mega before she lets it join her team. It could have been development if it had happened over a longer period of time, but it all happened in the same setting and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    but he did make that argument, that crys had no personality.
    I probably did misspeak there, I will give you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    they're both linked, and crys had a developed personality sure. but what you don't get is that kusaka pressed her 'reset' button when he gave her that failure sub-arc of hers. we learn that she's basically a perfectionist afraid of failure, so she was afraid to try again until her mom set her straight, cue training montage. isn't that character development, to overcome fear of failure and failure itself? you may argue "but she's the same person so there's no character development".... no. she did, she started over and it made her into a new person.
    Resetting a character and bringing them back to where they were is not development. A character reset can be used for character development if it serves in moving the character further than they were before the reset, see Rocky III or the episode "Always a Chance" in Power Rangers in Space, but only if the character learns from it all. How did Crystal become a new person? She went back to being a perfectionist, she went back to being a bad nagger, and she went back to kicking people in the face for no good reason at all. You can say that she got over "fear of failure", but I never got the impression that that was a problem with her to begin with.

    Something that is contrived is something that appears to come out of nowhere. It has no build up or post explanation and is there to move the plot along. It exist because an author is unable or incapable to connect ideas in a meaningful or proper way.

    I don't recall Crystal actually having a problem with the fear of failure until she actually failed. If there is no previous evidence of this problem, then the plot built around it is contrived. If she said things like "I can't fail this", or "I refuse to lose" before that, then you could make that argument. I, however, don't remember Crystal ever bringing that up until she actually failed. If that was a part of her personality and previous characterization, then it should have been foreshadowed earlier to clearly establish the "man vs self" conflict. Foreshadowing makes events in the future more believable. Otherwise, the conflict is "man vs contrived sub-plot". Her sub-plot/character arc (if you could call it that) is a contrived voyage that serves only to get her to the Whirl Islands, meet Gold and Silver, and continue the over-arching plot of the series (at that time).

    Does Crystal have a personality? Yes.
    Is it a good one? Kinda.
    Does Crystal have plots and sub-plots that flow out of her motivations? Yes.
    Are some of them contrived? Very much so.
    Does Crystal have character development? No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    No, that is not the influence of western media, that is just an aspect of good story telling as it has evolved over the years. Development doesn't have to be dark and emo, it just has to exist. There must be a negative part of her personality that we SEE her get over in some fashion.

    Do we see how she became less of a nagger?

    Was it established in some way that she had a fear for failure before it actually happened?

    In the context of what happened with Mega, it seems more like Crystal is testing Mega before she lets it join her team. It could have been development if it had happened over a longer period of time, but it all happened in the same setting and round.
    i skipped all the unnecessary things. now let's start dissecting your opinion:

    a. see what i was getting at? you said development doesn't have to be dark and emo, and yet you contradict yourself with the very next line stating that there must be some negative part of her that we see her get over in some fashion. this, my friends, is what i meant by hollywood rearing its ugly head. i'll explain more later.

    b. yes she became less of a nagger. you forgot all the times she's berated gold about his not-well-thought-of plans in gsc and emerald, and how she's put her trust in him in HGSS. but i guess you missed that didn't you.

    c. development is development, no other way around it. it means progress. see, we're looking at it differently. here, i'll provide an example.

    1. you see development like a city upgrading its technology, infrastructure, and government. say, like new york city. over the years it has built itself from the log cabins of the 1600s to the metal skyscrapers of today. that's you.
    2. i on the other hand, view development as not only that, but it also counts when a city is destroyed by natural or man-made causes, such as typhoons and sorts. everything in sight is wiped, but the people build again, fresh off a clean slate, picking themselves back up and improving on what was previously built.


    THAT up there also counts as development, it's just that the point of improvement is back at the starting line. crystal underwent the same development koga, bruno, will, and karen did. their slate got wiped clean with a chance of a new life and the initiative to improve oneself. there's the negative part you said, but you imagine it like some kind of epiphany like they do on the avengers, spiderman, dark knight rises, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Resetting a character and bringing them back to where they were is not development. A character reset can be used for character development if it serves in moving the character further than they were before the reset, see Rocky III or the episode "Always a Chance" in Power Rangers in Space, but only if the character learns from it all. How did Crystal become a new person? She went back to being a perfectionist, she went back to being a bad nagger, and she went back to kicking people in the face for no good reason at all. You can say that she got over "fear of failure", but I never got the impression that that was a problem with her to begin with.
    explain where, with scans. kicking people in the face means gold and it means they've gotten closer in terms of friendship. score 1 for development!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Something that is contrived is something that appears to come out of nowhere. It has no build up or post explanation and is there to move the plot along. It exist because an author is unable or incapable to connect ideas in a meaningful or proper way.

    I don't recall Crystal actually having a problem with the fear of failure until she actually failed. If there is no previous evidence of this problem, then the plot built around it is contrived. If she said things like "I can't fail this", or "I refuse to lose" before that, then you could make that argument. I, however, don't remember Crystal ever bringing that up until she actually failed. If that was a part of her personality and previous characterization, then it should have been foreshadowed earlier to clearly establish the "man vs self" conflict. Foreshadowing makes events in the future more believable. Otherwise, the conflict is "man vs contrived sub-plot". Her sub-plot/character arc (if you could call it that) is a contrived voyage that serves only to get her to the Whirl Islands, meet Gold and Silver, and continue the over-arching plot of the series (at that time).
    are you the kind of reader who needs everything to be spelled out for you? red learned the meaning of losing and learned from it, but he never said anything on the lines of "i'm unbeatable". green(boy) learned the meaning of caring for your pokemon, but he never said anything on the lines of "my training program is perfect". sometimes things are implied, and i think you know that.

    crystal was afraid of failure. look at these scans.

    hey i'm crystal, i'm proud of my capturing skills, she even says "SHOW OFF", here's a free demo
    she does everything in her power to capture suicune not just because of curiosity, but also because of pride
    she's starting to fail now
    eusine's failed for years and he still has the drive to go after suicune
    yet only after 1 failure, she fails in the skill she's so proud of. see, she even says "I CAN'T DO IT" after only ONE failure.

    if that doesn't tell you that she's a perfectionist who stumbles at the first rock in the road (aka afraid of failure) then you need help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Does Crystal have a personality? Yes.
    Is it a good one? Kinda.
    Does Crystal have plots and sub-plots that flow out of her motivations? Yes.
    Are some of them contrived? Very much so.
    Does Crystal have character development? No.
    you need to stop with this "contrived plots" idea because in essence all plots are contrived. they're happening because there's a story to be written. if you think everything in crystal's story is convenient then hey, let's nitpick all the other books too!

    let's start with the famous illiad! how convenient was it that an arrow struck achilles on the spot where he was vulnerable? how convenient was it that voldemort gave a piece of his being to harry effectively giving harry potter a total of 2 lives? how convenient was it that aragorn was an unsung king of gondor, so that gathering all those spirits for the final battle was a cinch?

    pokemon special is not perfect i admit, but to say that crystal's arc doesn't feel natural and because of that it means she doesn't have any development whatsoever is a load of tripe. open yourself to a new part of storytelling, which is why i find asian work to be fascinating nowadays, simply because they have a different way of presenting things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamingflower View Post
    And that's one of the things I hate. People won't look farther than what their eyes see.

    I guess that's something most people don't think off. character development happen in different ways and some of them aren't that noticeable as others.
    Both you and Pokemanaic make a point. Crys developed more than what we think.

    When Crystal was completely down about her failure to understand and capture Suicune, she lost self-confidence and her ability to capture a Pokemon. Her mom had to get her some sense back in that brain of hers.
    Which was her drive for her character development.

    All the Pokedex owners had a character development in a different way.
    Red, Gold, Yellow and Sapphire got it from traveling and meeting different people.
    Blue, Silver, White and Black got it from facing their trauma or past. well for Black and White for it the feeling of having their trust in their Pokemon broken, but I see that as traumatic.
    Crystal, Green, Ruby (on the harsh way) got it from failing. Crystal when she failed to capture Suicune, Green when he lost to Red in the Pokemon league and Ruby when he lost the beauty contest and chased poor Mimi away.
    The Sinnoh trio and Emerald got one through friendship. Platinum opened up to Dia and Pearl and Emerald did that with Ruby and Sapphire.
    yes, you understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    i skipped all the unnecessary things. now let's start dissecting your opinion:

    a. see what i was getting at? you said development doesn't have to be dark and emo, and yet you contradict yourself with the very next line stating that there must be some negative part of her that we see her get over in some fashion. this, my friends, is what i meant by hollywood rearing its ugly head. i'll explain more later.

    b. yes she became less of a nagger. you forgot all the times she's berated gold about his not-well-thought-of plans in gsc and emerald, and how she's put her trust in him in HGSS. but i guess you missed that didn't you.

    c. development is development, no other way around it. it means progress. see, we're looking at it differently. here, i'll provide an example.

    1. you see development like a city upgrading its technology, infrastructure, and government. say, like new york city. over the years it has built itself from the log cabins of the 1600s to the metal skyscrapers of today. that's you.
    2. i on the other hand, view development as not only that, but it also counts when a city is destroyed by natural or man-made causes, such as typhoons and sorts. everything in sight is wiped, but the people build again, fresh off a clean slate, picking themselves back up and improving on what was previously built.


    THAT up there also counts as development, it's just that the point of improvement is back at the starting line. crystal underwent the same development koga, bruno, will, and karen did. their slate got wiped clean with a chance of a new life and the initiative to improve oneself. there's the negative part you said, but you imagine it like some kind of epiphany like they do on the avengers, spiderman, dark knight rises, etc.
    A "negative" part of a persons personality does not mean "dark and emo". A negative part of a persons personality can range from too much apathy to too much sympathy. From a personality that is too mean to a personality that is too nice. A "negative" part of a person's personality can also be too much of an otherwise good quality. That is not a contradiction as much as it is a confusion of terms. My bad on that one.

    Chapter 9 of Write Great Fiction - Plot and Structure by James Scott Bell says: "What makes a plot truly memorable is not all of the action, but what the action does to the character. We respond to the character who changes, who endures the crucible of the story only to emerge a different person at the end...What deepens a plot is when characters grow. Events happen and should have an impact on the characters. Are there novels where the characters don't change? Sure. But these are not usually classified as 'enduring'...Your lead character should be a different person at the other end of the arc." [Emphasis not mine].

    How I view character development is not my opinion, it is the actual way that writers develop good characters. Resetting a character does not in any way meet these guidelines. Characters that do not change are not memorable.

    Everything you showed either did not actually show any foreshadowing to her failure and character flaws (some didn't even have the words you used to describe them at all), or it showed this during or after the her failure (meaning it wasn't foreshadowing). Therefore, my point still stands.

    Not all plots are contrived. Some plots write themselves when settings and characters are created. As I said, "Something that is contrived is something that appears to come out of nowhere. It has no build up or post explanation and is there to move the plot along. It exist because an author is unable or incapable to connect ideas in a meaningful or proper way." These kind of contrivances are things that happen in the plot and not in the creation of the plot. These have no build up, foreshadowing, or post explanation (unlike the examples you gave which had build up, foreshadowing, or post explanation [the latter for that Harry chap where it was established earlier on, but we didn't know that it applied to him until afterward]).

    Crystal kicking Gold should not be viewed as "they've gotten closer in terms of friendship". Here in the real world, we call that "physical abuse". Guys, you need to stop thinking that how she treats Gold is a funny thing to watch. Your reaction to it is starting to creep me out. Could you please stop? For me?

    Yes, I like to nitpick, but I don't think that it is as bad as people say it is. It is an essential aspect of higher criticism; something which most people in the academic world hail to be a good thing. I am more than happy to talk about the strengths of the Manga as a whole, but when there is something that needs to be brought up, I will bring it up. Could I use some work in my presentation? Sure, I am fairly new at the art of criticism and analysis, but that is just me. That doesn't mean that nitpicking in itself is a bad thing.

    If you really think that most of what I said factors into personal taste, then you really shouldn't let it get to you.

    Note: All emoticons exist for the sole purpose of avoiding the Online Disinhibition Effect. Let's try to be nice and not flame each other (that goes double for me).
    Last edited by Trutown; 1st March 2013 at 5:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    How I view character development is not my opinion, it is the actual way that writers develop good characters. Resetting a character does not in any way meet these guidelines. Characters that do not change are not memorable.
    and i suppose mr. bell here speaks for all writers. i don't buy it. you say that your view of character development is fact because a writer agrees with your side, and that resetting one isn't development. way to ignore my "building a city" analogy though.

    here, i'll even use a person's view on how a story is made:

    Kurt Vonnegut's How to Write a Short Story: Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To hell with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.

    does that mean though that mr. vonnegut here speaks fact? because according to his logic sherlock holmes, nancy drew and hardy boys aren't pieces of fine literature at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Everything you showed either did not actually show any foreshadowing to her failure and character flaws (some didn't even have the words you used to describe them at all), or it showed this during or after the her failure (meaning it wasn't foreshadowing). Therefore, my point still stands.
    no, you just refuse to see them in my POV. i even said that sometimes foreshadowing wasn't needed as they were implied in their personalities, but you disregarded them. here's your other problem: you see things too literally.

    i presented crystal in links which conveyed some with a little sarcasm, and some with truth. i'll make it literally clear for you.

    "I fought with a very strong Pokemon today. I can't capture anymore. I can't do it, mum."

    you can see that she even understands what eusine feels, seeing as she has pride in her capturing skills too. take note she sees team rocket as "competitors" and not as "evil goons".

    Crystal: I don't usually do this.
    Eusine: I guess you're really .... using an attack you don't normally use.
    Crystal: Don't you feel the same way? .... I'm sure you'd hate to let Suicune land in their hands.


    eusine might be a 1-dimensional character who loves kissing crystal's hand, but there's no denying he's gotten over failure/isn't afraid of failure.

    Crystal: Where're you going?
    Eusine: To go after Suicune of course.


    take note he's been doing that for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Not all plots are contrived. Some plots write themselves when settings and characters are created. As I said, "Something that is contrived is something that appears to come out of nowhere. It has no build up or post explanation and is there to move the plot along. It exist because an author is unable or incapable to connect ideas in a meaningful or proper way." These kind of contrivances are things that happen in the plot and not in the creation of the plot. These have no build up, foreshadowing, or post explanation (unlike the examples you gave which had build up, foreshadowing, or post explanation [the latter for that Harry chap where it was established earlier on, but we didn't know that it applied to him until afterward]).
    and crystal's plot was writing itself as soon as she went on her journey. your point is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Crystal kicking Gold should not be viewed as "they've gotten closer in terms of friendship". Here in the real world, we call that "physical abuse". Guys, you need to stop thinking that how she treats Gold is a funny thing to watch. Your reaction to it is starting to creep me out. Could you please stop? For me?
    no, you stop. how about opening your mind to different things? i definitely said that i was interested in asian literature and it always has this girl hitting guy because of whatever stupid thing guy has done trope. it's present in the original mulan epic, romance of the 3 kingdoms, etc. pokespe being an asian work is no exception to this rule.

    africans (especially tribal minded ones) practice female circumcision by placing a piercing into you-know-what. i perceive this as physical abuse, but to them it's a rite of growing up. who am i to say it's bad because i see it as bad? there's no absolutes in this world unless it destroys all of us, and crystal hitting gold signifies friendship is no different to superman and batman's friendship, even if batman's only ever considered supes as a "working partner".

    tl;dr open your mind to other cultures. your culture and environment you grew up on isn't the one absolute, and it applies here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    Yes, I like to nitpick, but I don't think that it is as bad as people say it is. It is an essential aspect of higher criticism; something which most people in the academic world hail to be a good thing. I am more than happy to talk about the strengths of the Manga as a whole, but when there is something that needs to be brought up, I will bring it up. Could I use some work in my presentation? Sure, I am fairly new at the art of criticism and analysis, but that is just me. That doesn't mean that nitpicking in itself is a bad thing.

    If you really think that most of what I said factors into personal taste, then you really shouldn't let it get to you.
    sometimes nitpicking is a bad thing, especially when you only see things your way. lots of theses being presented towards PhD professors are being rejected simply because the jurors cannot understand the presentee's scope of work. to criticize, nitpick, and analyze you must first understand the work you're trying to nitpick, look at it from other points of view, and from the way you've impressed yourself upon me i can say you barely understand anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    no, you stop. how about opening your mind to different things? i definitely said that i was interested in asian literature and it always has this girl hitting guy because of whatever stupid thing guy has done trope. it's present in the original mulan epic, romance of the 3 kingdoms, etc. pokespe being an asian work is no exception to this rule.

    africans (especially tribal minded ones) practice female circumcision by placing a piercing into you-know-what. i perceive this as physical abuse, but to them it's a rite of growing up. who am i to say it's bad because i see it as bad? there's no absolutes in this world unless it destroys all of us, and crystal hitting gold signifies friendship is no different to superman and batman's friendship, even if batman's only ever considered supes as a "working partner".

    tl;dr open your mind to other cultures. your culture and environment you grew up on isn't the one absolute, and it applies here.

    I think this is not directly connected about the culture something.

    It's just an expression of like Ice Age, guys push each other to express concern.

    (And we can see this plot in the OP of Pokemon anima High Touch, Dawn push Ash instead.)

    And here is to express Crys's awkward state.

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    Speaking from an Asian prospective, it is true that when ever a guy annoys a girl, she usually end up hitting him;then she laugh afterwards.Its this kind of family bonding that we Asian have after spending a lot of time with each other.If you step into an Asian classroom; you will always see this.

    This is what we call teasing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    and i suppose mr. bell here speaks for all writers. i don't buy it. you say that your view of character development is fact because a writer agrees with your side, and that resetting one isn't development. way to ignore my "building a city" analogy though.

    here, i'll even use a person's view on how a story is made:

    Kurt Vonnegut's How to Write a Short Story: Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To hell with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.

    does that mean though that mr. vonnegut here speaks fact? because according to his logic sherlock holmes, nancy drew and hardy boys aren't pieces of fine literature at all.
    I did not quote James Scott Bell because he agrees with me, I quoted him because he convinced me of the position that he holds. I actually partly agree with Vonnegut, but I would say that it depends on genre (and I am pretty sure that he would agree if we were to ask him in person).

    Believe it or not, I used to agree with everything you said once. Then I took a literature analysis class at University and learned otherwise. This is a stance that the overwhelming majority of writers take on characters.

    If the "girls kicking guys" thing is supposed to be a prevalent thing in their culture, that does not make it any better. I have every right to criticize it. People outside of Western cultures criticize Western Culture all of the time. That is how we all (that is to say, mankind) point out our flaws and learn from them, by seeing what other people say about us.

    I do understand what I am criticizing. Pokemon Adventures is a Pokemon comic book series. That still doesn't make your point accurate. When literature teachers analyze literature, they do so with a very open mindset. If they "don't understand the scope", it is because the author is unable to convey the scope and ideas in a proper or meaningful way.

    I have great respect for other cultures, but when other cultures (even my own) do things that are wrong then we should call them out on it. I don't believe that my culture is absolute and I can think of many things that are wrong with my culture. I appeal to a higher authority here, the higher idea of "rightness" and "wrongness".

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    Quote Originally Posted by iGotNoiPad View Post
    Speaking from an Asian prospective, it is true that when ever a guy annoys a girl, she usually end up hitting him;then she laugh afterwards.Its this kind of family bonding that we Asian have after spending a lot of time with each other.If you step into an Asian classroom; you will always see this.

    This is what we call teasing.
    Teasing is one thing. Kicking someone in the face is another. Especially given that Crystal is supposed to have incredibly strong legs from all that arms-tied Pokeball-kicking she does.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyichigo View Post
    Teasing is one thing. Kicking someone in the face is another. Especially given that Crystal is supposed to have incredibly strong legs from all that arms-tied Pokeball-kicking she does.
    Even though it's meant to be played for laughs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyichigo View Post
    Teasing is one thing. Kicking someone in the face is another. Especially given that Crystal is supposed to have incredibly strong legs from all that arms-tied Pokeball-kicking she does.
    Exactly. If we take the evidence we have and look at how far she can kick a pokeball, how much power she can put behind it doing so, and how much accuracy she has with propulsion, we can see how much strength she has in her legs.

    Let's take a look at her attempt on Lugia. Crystal was at ground level when she kicked the ball. Lugia is seventeen and one tenths feet tall (approximately 5.2 meters tall). Let's assume that she is twenty feet away at the least and that Lugia is standing straight up (a 90 degree angle). She would have to kick the ball 26.3 feet up in the air at a 70.74 degree angle.

    Now we don't actually have the extra numbers to find the amount of force behind the kick (we don't have the mass of a pokeball, how fast she accelerated it [though it would have to be pretty fast], the velocity of her kick, or how stiff her body was at the time), but we can get some other observations. The picture seems to show it moving at a fast and constant rate. She is a smaller person than an average soccer/football player (since she is eleven), so the acceleration and velocity of her kicks would be higher than a regular person.

    Even without all of the data, we can conclude that she has incredible strength in her legs. Kicking someone with that strong of a leg wouldn't necessarily break someone's bones, but it would leave a very large bruse. After the doing it for the first time, you would think that she would realize that she can really hurt someone doing that and stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Even though it's meant to be played for laughs.
    "Played for laughs" does not always mean "funny" or "okay". In fact, it often enough is something that hasn't been thought out very well at all and is becomes creepy or unsettling when you actually think about it. See, for example, all those bad harem-comedy series where the girls punch the one guy through walls or whatever and no one ever cares.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyichigo View Post
    "Played for laughs" does not always mean "funny" or "okay". In fact, it often enough is something that hasn't been thought out very well at all and is becomes creepy or unsettling when you actually think about it. See, for example, all those bad harem-comedy series where the girls punch the one guy through walls or whatever and no one ever cares.
    Must be a cultural thing with lots of Anime/Manga doing it. Eh, I'm never one to take things like these so seriously (though I hate how overused they can get).
    Last edited by matt0044; 2nd March 2013 at 3:24 AM.

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    Are we talking about Crystal still? The last thing I read was Crystal kicking Gold in the face. I thought it was done for humor reasons. Is there another reason behind the kick that I missed? You guys have been typing really long and detailed stuff on...whatever that I couldn't follow.
    Parena or Serecham both equal Serena+Pancham!

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    Lol what is wrong with you guys? The kick is comedic, lol. Also, this IS Pokemon. Not the real world.

    This is a a manga guys. No need to throw in the calcs or anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    Are we talking about Crystal still? The last thing I read was Crystal kicking Gold in the face. I thought it was done for humor reasons. Is there another reason behind the kick that I missed? You guys have been typing really long and detailed stuff on...whatever that I couldn't follow.
    Yes, it's humor just for this......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    I did not quote James Scott Bell because he agrees with me, I quoted him because he convinced me of the position that he holds. I actually partly agree with Vonnegut, but I would say that it depends on genre (and I am pretty sure that he would agree if we were to ask him in person).

    Believe it or not, I used to agree with everything you said once. Then I took a literature analysis class at University and learned otherwise. This is a stance that the overwhelming majority of writers take on characters.
    if that's the case then i say your professor is a hipster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trutown View Post
    I do understand what I am criticizing. Pokemon Adventures is a Pokemon comic book series. That still doesn't make your point accurate. When literature teachers analyze literature, they do so with a very open mindset. If they "don't understand the scope", it is because the author is unable to convey the scope and ideas in a proper or meaningful way.

    I have great respect for other cultures, but when other cultures (even my own) do things that are wrong then we should call them out on it. I don't believe that my culture is absolute and I can think of many things that are wrong with my culture. I appeal to a higher authority here, the higher idea of "rightness" and "wrongness".
    and i say you are a really contradictory person. i'm really laughing now. i mean seriously, you say you respect other cultures, but you condemn them for their practices that in your eyes seem wrong. there's something wrong with that. girls hitting guys in a comedic fashion has always been played for laughs in asian (particularly japanese) culture and it's no different in pokespe.

    it's like telling gordon ramsay, 15 michelin starred chef, that his food sucks because he's an arsehole. it has no basis whatsoever in context yet you still do it because you can. double standard much? does his attitude translate to how good the food he prepares is? does it make sense, that you "respect other cultures" but you condemn their practices which are part of their culture? you would be a very very bad diplomat trutown.

    crystal kicking gold is played for humor, that's it. it's part of her personality, it's part of who she is. we've strayed far from our topic, it seems we're treading on dangerous moral middle ground here lol. it's a minefield, and it's partly my fault for laying them.

    i'll provide another example: arabs at work hate people who do a great job and passing the credit to another. at japan meanwhile, workers love that. if i were to do a series about a factory worker who saves his company by pulling the strings from behind the shadows and sell them to the middle east, my series would certainly fail. if i sold it in japan the opposite would most likely happen. THIS is called the difference between cultures, and i know you'll understand. this is a generalization btw, with all things constant, before you throw me under the bus.

    my points again are:

    -crystal has a developed personality, no two ways about it.
    -nothing is absolute, character development included. fiction-wise, the only things absolute are the ones that can be measured (grammar, spelling, format). nothing else.
    -pokespe is made for kids, which is why your interpretation of "bodily harm" doesn't work when it's played for laughs. i don't see any japanese feminist movement petitioning whoever's publishing pokespe to shut it down because of gold's supposed broken bones.
    -ronald weasley had a reset button. rowling pressed it in book seven. are you going to say he's not a developed character too?

    tl;dr you're reading too much into this .. but what can i say, i'm getting the impression you don't read everything i type anyway. i feel sad but hey this is the internet. for all i know you're trolling me, and if you are you're doing a great, great job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyichigo View Post
    Teasing is one thing. Kicking someone in the face is another. Especially given that Crystal is supposed to have incredibly strong legs from all that arms-tied Pokeball-kicking she does.
    played for laughs. can't believe you took it to another level though and added calcs on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper222 View Post
    played for laughs. can't believe you took it to another level though and added calcs on it.
    In fact, Crystal's legs not pose a problem completely, taking into account PMSP has a lot of people of strange force, like Ruby (he pulled Mr. Briney only one hand), Sapphire (she pulled Ruby), Mr. Briney (he fished three Wailmers at the same time), Gold, Silver (they take turns carried Jasmine when they are 11 years old, run, and throw her), etc. lol
    Last edited by e9310103838; 2nd March 2013 at 10:56 AM.

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    @jasper222 I like this guy. He can be rude and stand-off but I admire how he doesn't give in. I wish I had such tenacity and way with words when it comes to these kind of matters.

    @Trutown & @Honeyichigo You must really hate a lot of cartoons then.
    Last edited by matt0044; 2nd March 2013 at 1:56 PM.

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