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Thread: Unpopular opinions about Pokemon manga

  1. #101
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    ^ Why would/should there be a confrontation between Anabel and Palmer?

    Palmer's a much better character than her btw.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    I would've made 'Emerald' an alias or a nickname or something. It would've worked with all of the other Pokedex holders anyway because Ruby was the only one he had met before and would've known his real name.
    I wonder why they'd go to the trouble of making a new character. Did they not see potential in Wally?

    BTW, I don't hate this but why is it that every dex holder is coincidentally named after a color or a gem? Kinda of a big coinkidink, huh?

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    I wonder why they'd go to the trouble of making a new character. Did they not see potential in Wally?

    BTW, I don't hate this but why is it that every dex holder is coincidentally named after a color or a gem? Kinda of a big coinkidink, huh?
    Because they wanted to make a dexholder that was completely unlikable in every sense of the word, and create some worrisome plotholes that could've easily been avoided due to this character? I don't know. I'm sure they had only the best of intentions when creating and writing Emerald. Unfortunately, it just didn't work out.

    Don't you know? Being named after a color or gem is the #1 requirement for obtaining a Pokedex in Adventures world. Oak said so himself. Trufax.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Because they wanted to make a dexholder that was completely unlikable in every sense of the word, and create some worrisome plotholes that could've easily been avoided due to this character?
    That's pretty subjective since some like Emerald. Guess that's a real unpopular opinion.

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  5. #105
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    Well, I've started writing the fanfiction I've been thinking about doing for the past couple of days. Link is in my sig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    That's pretty subjective since some like Emerald. Guess that's a real unpopular opinion.
    Exactly. I actually like Emerald a lot. Heck, I enjoyed his whole chapter. I'm sure there are many people who disagree...but I really enjoyed that arc. ^^;


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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Also I wonder why Wally still couldn't be Emerald like it was his surname. Wally Emerald or Mitsuru Emerald could've worked. It'd be similar to Platinum and it's not like Kusaka isn't known for this where he foreshadow an future arc based on a game that wasn't released then. Inadvertently or otherwise.
    That could worked with Kyouhei's and Mei's name in Adventures.
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  8. #108
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    Wally. I am still bitter with how they treated Wally. He should have been the third Hoenn Pokedex holder. He was in the original magazine publications. Heck, they could have given the name Emerald somehow like in relation to his hair or the color of all of his Pokemon. Especially now that we have Cheren and Bianca, it makes me even more sad about Wally's treatment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionickai001 View Post
    Wally. I am still bitter with how they treated Wally. He should have been the third Hoenn Pokedex holder. He was in the original magazine publications. Heck, they could have given the name Emerald somehow like in relation to his hair or the color of all of his Pokemon. Especially now that we have Cheren and Bianca, it makes me even more sad about Wally's treatment.
    Have you read anything on the intranets lately? People hate the way Wally was just a filler for Emerald. Not exactly unpopular.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    That's pretty much what mine would be as well. I think I'll start looking into it once I'm done reading the volumes (I'm on 38 now), so I don't want to give up all of my "secrets" I guess. I have a bunch of plans, though.

    Not all leaders have to be leader-like? Umm...kinda contradicting logic there lol. If you want to be a good leader at least, you have to have some kind of leadership skills. But then again Anabel didn't have any so..

    Oh, but I absolutely hated the whole fake suit thing. How the hell did Gold figure out how to make a fake suit nobody knew anything about? Sure it was badass but it was also a gaping plothole.
    I'll have to check it out then.

    I meant that one doesn't have to (always) act like a leader to be a good one. One can be calm and lead while not acting one would think a leader would. Sorry about that.

    True, but I dunno. I just like the idea of Gold running around trying to be a bad guy. Didn't they figure out about Guile somehow? Maybe someone saw him and described him? I dunno, it's another thing they sorta waved their hand with. The good guys need a good spy so they can know about these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    I don't really have much to retort with you here. What I meant was Blue was written as the rival/"the lancer" I guess and not as someone who'd really fit being the hero of an arc. Plus he had already pretty much reached the peak of his (very minimal) development at the end of RGB so I don't see much happening in that department either if he was Yellow's star. Sure, I guess it could've been done, but the writers decided to make him a mentor character to Yellow instead. Those few chapters where they were training together were excellent btw.
    I just don't see how he isn't fit. Nor do I see why a brand new character is needed for such a plot. He shared some of the spotlight with Red in RGB and wasn't too bad to read. He's mostly a substitute hero not a permanent one. TV Tropes supports this under The Lancer trope:

    "In the event that The Hero of the team is unable to lead, or the team temporarily has no Hero, The Lancer steps in. Sometimes, he's forced to take the position against his will. Either way, this plot is used to contrast the hero's leadership style against what the lancer's would be. A frequent ending for this plot is for The Lancer to gladly give up the reins of power while The Hero often notes that the team will be in excellent hands the next time he is absent. "

    So, how again, is Green not fit for the arc? Let's remember what the Yellow arc is about: Red goes missing, someone goes to find him, and in the process ends up meeting his old friends and stopping the big bad. Most of that Green can do perfectly: He goes to find Red, learns about the big bad's plot, finds Red, meets his friends and meets up with Blue, they go to the final level, meet the TR leaders, and beat the big bad with Blue. And this is with only taking a few liberties. In essence, you still keeping the evil!E4 plot along with the missing Red subplot and the returning GLs subplot. All of which doesn't need Yellow to do them.

    Considering his development consisted of learning ~two things, it's a matter of beefing up his personality and dealing with (new) issues and any Red issues. I can see the hardest part would be developing him, though since it can't be too little or too much... Could Green lead a long and big story on his own? It would be pretty damn hard to do so due to his personality. Could he be used for a short time until he gets his other half? Heck yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Except no. Sapphire was Ruby's rival, yes. But her adventure was given just as much focus as Ruby's was so she was also a main hero of the arc as well. With Blue and Silver, they were only written as foils to Red and Gold and focus was only given to their journeys when they met up with the main hero of the story at the time. R/S decided to do things differently and follow both character's stories at the same time. Whether that's what the writers should've done with Blue and Silver as well is opinion I guess.
    What's focus have to do with it? She was still a foil to Ruby and was written that way. The lack of focus doesn't mean that if they were given more they won't work. It's still all how you write the characters and use them. We aren't simply cutting and pasting here; the Yellow arc was too much made around Yellow. Considering how Ruby ended up being the main hero and Sapphire getting regulated to the sidelines, it's very easy to make her just like Green and Silver in terms of focus. The whole thing is that RS did do it; it had a rival as a main protag and leading half the story. If Sapphire can do it, so can Green just easily. Just because he was a foil first doesn't mean he can't become a main protag. Being a foil doesn't block you from becoming something. There are foils that are main protags and heroes all the time in media.

    If it was Silver, then yeah, I could understand since it doesn't seem to care for or respect Gold that much, as a friend or rival (their "rivalry" doesn't even get a freaking conclusion. I'm not even sure if they're friends). But, Green is shown to care, at least, a bit about Red and is pretty observant about him in GSC. So, it doesn't make sense on how little he seems to care in Yellow that he can't go off to find him. They were friends by then and even if they weren't, the respect would still be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Well it was pretty much a one-panel "blink and you miss it" deal, but in Gold's letter Oak explains that Green told him about Silver.

    His parents died when he was young, and he was shuffled to different relatives he hadn't met before and were jerks that didn't want a kid or whatever. He eventually came across the Trick Master...somehow. I can't even remember. And I just finished reading the Emerald arc yesterday...
    No wonder. I can't ever remember about that letter...

    Really? I completely thought he ran away from an orphanage at a young age and wandered Hoenn... I remember a beach and him drawing with the Trick Master suddenly appearing, but I don't know how Emerald got there. Wow... and I thought I was bad. I think we should completely call Emerald's backstory as junk and continue forgetting about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    I wonder why they'd go to the trouble of making a new character. Did they not see potential in Wally?

    BTW, I don't hate this but why is it that every dex holder is coincidentally named after a color or a gem? Kinda of a big coinkidink, huh?
    Kusaka likes his OCs, perhaps. Or it just didn't come to him to somehow work the word "Emerald" into Mitsuru's name. (I didn't think of making it a last name either.)

    It's all the rage, don't you know?

    At any rate, I like your idea of Emerald being a surname (a nickname is fine too). It works.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilchibi_pichu View Post
    I'll have to check it out then.

    True, but I dunno. I just like the idea of Gold running around trying to be a bad guy. Didn't they figure out about Guile somehow? Maybe someone saw him and described him? I dunno, it's another thing they sorta waved their hand with. The good guys need a good spy so they can know about these things.
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    I...really don't think so. My memory is foggy because I pretty much sped-read Emerald, but I know Oak was aware that someone else was after Jirachi, but there was nothing to indicate that they knew anything about the suit of armor at all. Or nothing I can recall, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilchibi_pichu View Post
    I just don't see how he isn't fit. Nor do I see why a brand new character is needed for such a plot. He shared some of the spotlight with Red in RGB and wasn't too bad to read. He's mostly a substitute hero not a permanent one. TV Tropes supports this under The Lancer trope:

    "In the event that The Hero of the team is unable to lead, or the team temporarily has no Hero, The Lancer steps in. Sometimes, he's forced to take the position against his will. Either way, this plot is used to contrast the hero's leadership style against what the lancer's would be. A frequent ending for this plot is for The Lancer to gladly give up the reins of power while The Hero often notes that the team will be in excellent hands the next time he is absent. "

    So, how again, is Green not fit for the arc? Let's remember what the Yellow arc is about: Red goes missing, someone goes to find him, and in the process ends up meeting his old friends and stopping the big bad. Most of that Green can do perfectly: He goes to find Red, learns about the big bad's plot, finds Red, meets his friends and meets up with Blue, they go to the final level, meet the TR leaders, and beat the big bad with Blue. And this is with only taking a few liberties. In essence, you still keeping the evil!E4 plot along with the missing Red subplot and the returning GLs subplot. All of which doesn't need Yellow to do them.

    Considering his development consisted of learning ~two things, it's a matter of beefing up his personality and dealing with (new) issues and any Red issues. I can see the hardest part would be developing him, though since it can't be too little or too much... Could Green lead a long and big story on his own? It would be pretty damn hard to do so due to his personality. Could he be used for a short time until he gets his other half? Heck yeah.
    Lol I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about this or something. I will say though that Yellow was a first generation game, and Blue is based on the rival of the first gen games. The anime was going really strong at the time (it was the basis for Yellow after all) and Blue had an anime counterpart in Gary, who at that point in the anime had pretty much done nothing but act like a jerkass every time he appeared. So, it would seem a bit odd to a child, especially one who was a big fan of the anime, to pick up a Pokemon manga they saw at the store and see a storyline with someone who looked exactly like Gary as the hero. I suppose it could've been done, but I don't know...that's just my thought process lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilchibi_pichu View Post
    What's focus have to do with it? She was still a foil to Ruby and was written that way. The lack of focus doesn't mean that if they were given more they won't work. It's still all how you write the characters and use them. We aren't simply cutting and pasting here; the Yellow arc was too much made around Yellow. Considering how Ruby ended up being the main hero and Sapphire getting regulated to the sidelines, it's very easy to make her just like Green and Silver in terms of focus. The whole thing is that RS did do it; it had a rival as a main protag and leading half the story. If Sapphire can do it, so can Green just easily. Just because he was a foil first doesn't mean he can't become a main protag. Being a foil doesn't block you from becoming something. There are foils that are main protags and heroes all the time in media.

    If it was Silver, then yeah, I could understand since it doesn't seem to care for or respect Gold that much, as a friend or rival (their "rivalry" doesn't even get a freaking conclusion. I'm not even sure if they're friends). But, Green is shown to care, at least, a bit about Red and is pretty observant about him in GSC. So, it doesn't make sense on how little he seems to care in Yellow that he can't go off to find him. They were friends by then and even if they weren't, the respect would still be there.
    Focus has everything to do with it. Compare how frequent Blue showed up in the RGB vs. the frequency Sapphire appeared in RS. She and Ruby were written to be foils to one another, yes, but she was also given many other characters to interact with on her quest, which was given just as much focus as Ruby's quest had. Unlike Blue, who never interacted on-screen with anyone of importance in the RGB arc besides Red until the third volume (well, I guess Koga too, in Pokemon Tower). And of course the Yellow arc was written too much around Yellow, it was her arc. She was the hero. And like I said, Blue getting as much focus as Red in RGB is a matter of opinion I suppose, but it does bring up my earlier point with the jerk rival getting equal billing to the hero.

    I've never really thought of that before re: the bold, but I guess that's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilchibi_pichu View Post
    Really? I completely thought he ran away from an orphanage at a young age and wandered Hoenn... I remember a beach and him drawing with the Trick Master suddenly appearing, but I don't know how Emerald got there. Wow... and I thought I was bad. I think we should completely call Emerald's backstory as junk and continue forgetting about it.
    Lol @ the bold. I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    I...really don't think so. My memory is foggy because I pretty much sped-read Emerald, but I know Oak was aware that someone else was after Jirachi, but there was nothing to indicate that they knew anything about the suit of armor at all. Or nothing I can recall, anyway.
    I don't think Ookido even knew that much. Rereading a summary, it looks like Crystal found out, somehow, and told him. Still not enough time to make a suit by then, though. Alas, another nifty idea ruined by bad planning/writing. I really thought Gold made that suit work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Lol I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about this or something. I will say though that Yellow was a first generation game, and Blue is based on the rival of the first gen games. The anime was going really strong at the time (it was the basis for Yellow after all) and Blue had an anime counterpart in Gary, who at that point in the anime had pretty much done nothing but act like a jerkass every time he appeared. So, it would seem a bit odd to a child, especially one who was a big fan of the anime, to pick up a Pokemon manga they saw at the store and see a storyline with someone who looked exactly like Gary as the hero. I suppose it could've been done, but I don't know...that's just my thought process lol.
    I suppose, heh. At least, now I get where you coming from. Green and Red really seemed like a mix of anime and games, but by Yellow Kusaka seemed do a 360 on Green which made him less like Shigeru and added a new character, so children that were fans of the anime would probably still feel odd about it. I mean, no Satoshi/Red with a Pikachuu? I would be pretty confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Focus has everything to do with it. Compare how frequent Blue showed up in the RGB vs. the frequency Sapphire appeared in RS. She and Ruby were written to be foils to one another, yes, but she was also given many other characters to interact with on her quest, which was given just as much focus as Ruby's quest had. Unlike Blue, who never interacted on-screen with anyone of importance in the RGB arc besides Red until the third volume (well, I guess Koga too, in Pokemon Tower). And of course the Yellow arc was written too much around Yellow, it was her arc. She was the hero. And like I said, Blue getting as much focus as Red in RGB is a matter of opinion I suppose, but it does bring up my earlier point with the jerk rival getting equal billing to the hero.
    I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. So, Sapphire had more focus in her arc. How does that change the fact that she's still a rival-type character similar to Green and that she shows rivals can be main protags and a hero? Green just didn't get that chance and probably would be more similar to Sapphire if he did in RGB. I was saying that because it sounded like you thought I would copy&paste Green into Yellow's role. I don't really want Green to share the focus equally in RGB since it'll be mostly a waste. I did want him to appear more, though. I think it would be important for RGB to be mostly about and on Red's journey so we have a basis when the main protag changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    I've never really thought of that before re: the bold, but I guess that's true.
    It's sorta disappointing, in a way. They had some interesting chemistry and I'm curious to what they think of each other. It can't be friendship since that would be out of the blue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilchibi_pichu View Post
    I don't think Ookido even knew that much. Rereading a summary, it looks like Crystal found out, somehow, and told him. Still not enough time to make a suit by then, though. Alas, another nifty idea ruined by bad planning/writing. I really thought Gold made that suit work.

    I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. So, Sapphire had more focus in her arc. How does that change the fact that she's still a rival-type character similar to Green and that she shows rivals can be main protags and a hero? Green just didn't get that chance and probably would be more similar to Sapphire if he did in RGB. I was saying that because it sounded like you thought I would copy&paste Green into Yellow's role. I don't really want Green to share the focus equally in RGB since it'll be mostly a waste. I did want him to appear more, though. I think it would be important for RGB to be mostly about and on Red's journey so we have a basis when the main protag changes.

    It's sorta disappointing, in a way. They had some interesting chemistry and I'm curious to what they think of each other. It can't be friendship since that would be out of the blue.
    Well then, how the bloody hoo-ha did Crystal find out about it? And where did they find the necessary materials to replicate it? It's still a gaping plot hole that will most likely be forgotten forever. Again, the only reason they probably did it was to make Gold look cool. Which is fine, but they should've put more thought into it. Really, Gold and Crystal just appeared out of absolutely nowhere for Emerald's climax and they just conveniently knew all of the answers on how to beat Guile. I hated it. Where is the conflict if we can just pull these two out of nowhere with no explanation to beat the bad guy? It was just poor writing. Not to mention Gold acted too much like a smug wiseass, which actually made me dislike him a little bit and made me want to see his plan fail. He fell down my favorites list after I reread Emerald. Which was a good thing for Pearl and Diamond.

    Because you can't just call Sapphire "the rival" for that arc as easily as you can Blue for the original arc, because her journey was half of the storyline. You can just as easily call her the heroine and Ruby "the rival." Or, you call them both the heroes, because that's exactly what they were. The only reason Blue was allowed existence was to serve as Red's rival. That is _it_. He served no other purpose when the manga started out (this was before the manga started developing an overall plotline, mind you, and it was pretty much Red's random Pokemon Adventures).

    They did have an interesting relationship, and it should've been devloped more. It really wasn't developed _at all_ past the point of Gold chasing Silver to the Lake of Rage and they were chucked out of the storyline for two books. So, yeah it's pretty hard to just accept them as being "friends" nowadays, because there was never anything written to develop their relationship to that level. Sorta like Red and Blue. We're just supposed to "accept" that they're friends, because the manga just says so.
    Last edited by Weedy Spyze; 23rd July 2012 at 7:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    They did have an interesting relationship, and it should've been devloped more. It really wasn't developed _at all_ past the point of Gold chasing Silver to the Lake of Rage and they were chucked out of the storyline for two books. So, yeah it's pretty hard to just accept them as being "friends" nowadays, because there was never anything written to develop their relationship to that level. Sorta like Red and Blue. We're just supposed to "accept" that they're friends, because the manga just says so.
    They were rivals at one point but that sort of dissolved once the whole Lake of Rage...Gold and Silver were on the same side. Before that they were almost enemies. I find it sad that you guys don't see them as friends...

        Spoiler:- Because Gold clearly does:


    And besides that Silver started to break down when he thought Gold died. He clearly cares about him, even if he doesn't want to admit it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 00poke_maniac View Post
    They were rivals at one point but that sort of dissolved once the whole Lake of Rage...Gold and Silver were on the same side. Before that they were almost enemies. I find it sad that you guys don't see them as friends...

        Spoiler:- Because Gold clearly does:


    And besides that Silver started to break down when he thought Gold died. He clearly cares about him, even if he doesn't want to admit it.
    Yeah, but the thing is, we never really saw them develop into friends, or Silver develop into someone who cared about Gold. They were just rivals, and then the plot didn't need their rivalry any more, so they defaulted to friends, basically.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyichigo View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is, we never really saw them develop into friends, or Silver develop into someone who cared about Gold. They were just rivals, and then the plot didn't need their rivalry any more, so they defaulted to friends, basically.
    Exactly. I wouldn't fuss over it if their relationship developed into friendship in a believable way. A nice storyline where they both begin to understand and like each other would've been a nice read. But the manga decided it was a better idea to throw both characters into the trash basically after the Lake of Rage, only to dig them back out two volumes later and then not develop their relationship anymore at all.

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    i wonder how Kusaka is gonna handle Mei,Kyouhei and that other guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Exactly. I wouldn't fuss over it if their relationship developed into friendship in a believable way. A nice storyline where they both begin to understand and like each other would've been a nice read. But the manga decided it was a better idea to throw both characters into the trash basically after the Lake of Rage, only to dig them back out two volumes later and then not develop their relationship anymore at all.
    It's because of how the arc was handled. I already talked about it, OVER 9000! lines to follow can't lead to much character development. That's actually the 'greater problem' I have with that arc. Kusaka focused too much on the plot and so, the characters suffered with that.

    I don't know if anyone agrees with me on this, but I think the reason Red and Green didn't get that development was because the RGB arc was too small. Which pratically led to the same thing as the GSC arc. There was little space, so it had to be filled with plot (leaving no space for character development).
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    This whole "No character development" thing is similar to Dragon Ball (Z) where the characters do change but not in the sense that they're each focused on individually. It's sorta just like life itself which I think is very nice. This is how life works, after all. Our own developments as people are subtle even to ourselves, and that's how a character should grow in my opinion. Character driven stories are nice too but plot driven stories aren't guaranteed to always be bad.

    Okay, granted we could’ve seen the characters develop more visibly in RGB, Y and GSC but again it’s like with the Dragon Ball (Z) Manga where you don’t really see the characters develop outright but you can feel that they're growing up all the same. It's also like in real life when you outgrow certain habits you had when you were young. You look back and sometimes ask yourself, "What was I thinking?" in embarrassment. Kuririn changed from a cocky coward with a snarky attitude to a braver but not so tough fighter with a good sense of humor (if you watch Kai). Goku matured from a wild jungle boy to a grown adult who's still kinda immature but far less than before (no more Pat Pat for one). Piccolo changed from an evil demon to a gruff but friendly ally thanks to Gohan and the bond they formed when training for the Saiyan. Speaking of which, Vegeta had a very gradual change from a villain in the Saiyan Saga to an anti-hero in the Freeza Saga to a good (well, better) guy in the Buu Saga (as signified by Porunga reviving him when everyone good is wish back to life before Buu’s defeated). His rivalry with Goku even becomes less hostile and he become a family man with Bulma. The development isn't made clear until the characters themselves or someone else realizes it and points it out. That’s when the reader gets thinking and sees how the characters changed in ways they hadn’t taken much note of.

    PokeSpe does this and the Anime did this with Paul too. I can see why others might not find this very appealing but to each their own. We all would love to see when and where and how a character grows, but mature audiences will appreciate it better if they can figure it out for themselves. It's closer to home that way if you ask me.
    Last edited by matt0044; 24th July 2012 at 4:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomNamikaze View Post
    It's because of how the arc was handled. I already talked about it, OVER 9000! lines to follow can't lead to much character development. That's actually the 'greater problem' I have with that arc. Kusaka focused too much on the plot and so, the characters suffered with that.

    I don't know if anyone agrees with me on this, but I think the reason Red and Green didn't get that development was because the RGB arc was too small. Which pratically led to the same thing as the GSC arc. There was little space, so it had to be filled with plot (leaving no space for character development).
    You're pretty much right here. Even after they were rescued, Silver and Gold were still barely in the damn book at all because we had so many more different things we had to read about and their journeys (and Crystal's at this point as well) were just put completely on hold, never to be brought up again. The horrible, terrible, absolutely-nothing-positive-about-this-crap Suicune subplot was mostly to blame for this. The gym leader tournament was another big offender to cut off the heroes' screentime. While a nice idea in theory, it didn't work as well as it could have in execution.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    This whole "No character development" thing is similar to Dragon Ball (Z) where the characters do change but not in the sense that they're each focused on individually. It's sorta just like life itself which I think is very nice. This is how life works, after all. Our own developments as people are subtle even to ourselves, and that's how a character should grow in my opinion. Character driven stories are nice too but plot driven stories aren't guaranteed to always be bad.

    Okay, granted we could’ve seen the characters develop more visibly in RGB, Y and GSC but again it’s like with the Dragon Ball (Z) Manga where you don’t really see the characters develop outright but you can feel that they're growing up all the same. It's also like in real life when you outgrow certain habits you had when you were young. You look back and sometimes ask yourself, "What was I thinking?" in embarrassment. Kuririn changed from a cocky coward with a snarky attitude to a braver but not so tough fighter with a good sense of humor (if you watch Kai). Goku matured from a wild jungle boy to a grown adult who's still kinda immature but far less than before (no more Pat Pat for one). Piccolo changed from an evil demon to a gruff but friendly ally thanks to Gohan and the bond they formed when training for the Saiyan. Speaking of which, Vegeta had a very gradual change from a villain in the Saiyan Saga to an anti-hero in the Freeza Saga to a good (well, better) guy in the Buu Saga (as signified by Porunga reviving him when everyone good is wish back to life before Buu’s defeated). His rivalry with Goku even becomes less hostile and he become a family man with Bulma. The development isn't made clear until the characters themselves or someone else realizes it and points it out. That’s when the reader gets thinking and sees how the characters changed in ways they hadn’t taken much note of.

    PokeSpe does this and the Anime did this with Paul too. I can see why others might not find this very appealing but to each their own. We all would love to see when and where and how a character grows, but mature audiences will appreciate it better if they can figure it out for themselves. It's closer to home that way if you ask me.
    Well I don't watch Dragon Ball Z, but from what I'm reading here it looks like you're talking about how the characters themselves changed. We're talking about how the relationship between two different characters (in this case, Gold and Silver) changed, which is a completely different topic. Honeyichigo pretty much hit the nail on the head--they were originally supposed to be rivals, but then the plot didn't need their rivalry anymore, so they just defaulted to friends with no explanation. You don't just magically become friends with an enemy overnight. And you can't say that "oh, their relationship got better off-screen" either because that's a cop-out and lazy writing. That's what the manga did with these two, though, which was pretty unsettling.

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    ^Oh, I was talking about in general and nothing specific. Sorry.

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    I thought what they did with Gold and Silver's rivalry was alright but it became apparent that couldn't stick with their rivalry with something bigger than than two looming over the horizon. They eventually had to work together whether they be friends or still rivals.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Izanagi View Post
    I thought what they did with Gold and Silver's rivalry was alright but it became apparent that couldn't stick with their rivalry with something bigger than than two looming over the horizon. They eventually had to work together whether they be friends or still rivals.
    It was okay but nothing perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    It was okay but nothing perfect.
    I didn't think handled it perfectly either but I didn't expect it to be.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Well then, how the bloody hoo-ha did Crystal find out about it? And where did they find the necessary materials to replicate it? It's still a gaping plot hole that will most likely be forgotten forever. Again, the only reason they probably did it was to make Gold look cool. Which is fine, but they should've put more thought into it. Really, Gold and Crystal just appeared out of absolutely nowhere for Emerald's climax and they just conveniently knew all of the answers on how to beat Guile. I hated it. Where is the conflict if we can just pull these two out of nowhere with no explanation to beat the bad guy? It was just poor writing. Not to mention Gold acted too much like a smug wiseass, which actually made me dislike him a little bit and made me want to see his plan fail. He fell down my favorites list after I reread Emerald. Which was a good thing for Pearl and Diamond.
    That plot hole is so big I wonder how the editor didn't catch it... I'm just going with the idea that secretly Crystal is some kind of spy. Less headaches. Agreed; if they were going to practically do everything themselves why bother sending Emerald to do it? Didn't the Brains say that Emerald was such a distraction that they missed something odd was going on? Gold didn't bother me too much, but his dialogue is so bad in Emerald. I still like him more than Diamond and way more than Pearl, though. xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    Because you can't just call Sapphire "the rival" for that arc as easily as you can Blue for the original arc, because her journey was half of the storyline. You can just as easily call her the heroine and Ruby "the rival." Or, you call them both the heroes, because that's exactly what they were. The only reason Blue was allowed existence was to serve as Red's rival. That is _it_. He served no other purpose when the manga started out (this was before the manga started developing an overall plotline, mind you, and it was pretty much Red's random Pokemon Adventures).
    Good point; can't argue there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weedy Spyze View Post
    They did have an interesting relationship, and it should've been devloped more. It really wasn't developed _at all_ past the point of Gold chasing Silver to the Lake of Rage and they were chucked out of the storyline for two books. So, yeah it's pretty hard to just accept them as being "friends" nowadays, because there was never anything written to develop their relationship to that level. Sorta like Red and Blue. We're just supposed to "accept" that they're friends, because the manga just says so.
    Pretty much. At least RGB kinda showed how Green and Red could become friends and had a tiny, tiny lead up to it. Gold and Silver practically got nothing that would suggest them ending up as friends and have Silver cry for Gold at the end felt OOC. (Green wanting to take Silver to jail was out of place too, for that matter.) What, did MoI made them become friends when Crys was off trying to seduce Suicune?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomNamikaze View Post
    It's because of how the arc was handled. I already talked about it, OVER 9000! lines to follow can't lead to much character development. That's actually the 'greater problem' I have with that arc. Kusaka focused too much on the plot and so, the characters suffered with that.

    I don't know if anyone agrees with me on this, but I think the reason Red and Green didn't get that development was because the RGB arc was too small. Which pratically led to the same thing as the GSC arc. There was little space, so it had to be filled with plot (leaving no space for character development).
    You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I also agree with you on RGB. Plus, not only was RGB small, but also rushed a lot. It was like half way through Kusaka decided he wanted to do something different along with Red's trainer journey and the arc, especially the characters, really suffered for it. It wouldn't be so bad, since it was his first, if he developed them in later arcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izanagi View Post
    I thought what they did with Gold and Silver's rivalry was alright but it became apparent that couldn't stick with their rivalry with something bigger than than two looming over the horizon. They eventually had to work together whether they be friends or still rivals.
    That would be fine if it was done correctly. They should of gone back to being rivals and how they were before Crystal appeared. I think Kusaka forgot they were supposed to be rivals and just stopped caring.
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