Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 83

Thread: The Neverused Tier

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Brasil
    Posts
    83

    Default

    I saw a Starmie set on PO the other day and it looks like it could work:
    Staryu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover
    - Cosmic Power
    - Scald

    The reason why one might choose Staryu over say, Wartortle to spin is because of two things (if not more). Starmie has reliable recovery in the move recover (derp) and also has natural cure which makes it good to eat up status. Unlike its big brother Starmie, it's purely water. By no means can this poke go offensive but it does its job well.
    I also saw someone use this set, but Toxic>Cosmic Power. NU dose have more than a few spinners, but most have little use outside of spinning, but they all have there niches:
    Wartortle has good bulk with Eviolite.
    Starmie sucks up status and has a good form of recovery.
    Armaldo has SD, good bulk and attack.
    Baltoy has Immunity to spikes, Toxic Spikes and taks low damge from Stealth Rock.
    Cryognal( I think it is NU) has Great Spd and SpDef.
    Delibird is um... immune to sleep and toxic/spikes....
    Spinda.... has a ok movepool?
    Tentacool has good Special Bulk, ok SPd and sucks up Toxic Spikes
    Tyrogre has noting good about him (that I know of) awfull stats.
    Torkal has SR Bulk and a good movepool.

  2. #52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 5221A View Post
    I saw a Starmie set on PO the other day and it looks like it could work:

    I also saw someone use this set, but Toxic>Cosmic Power. NU dose have more than a few spinners, but most have little use outside of spinning, but they all have there niches:
    Wartortle has good bulk with Eviolite.
    Starmie sucks up status and has a good form of recovery.
    Armaldo has SD, good bulk and attack.
    Baltoy has Immunity to spikes, Toxic Spikes and taks low damge from Stealth Rock.
    Cryognal( I think it is NU) has Great Spd and SpDef.
    Delibird is um... immune to sleep and toxic/spikes....
    Spinda.... has a ok movepool?
    Tentacool has good Special Bulk, ok SPd and sucks up Toxic Spikes
    Tyrogre has noting good about him (that I know of) awfull stats.
    Torkal has SR Bulk and a good movepool.
    here's the thing though: what would a competent player (in other words, not a random ladder idiot) use?
    i meant to reply to the whole rapid spin issue because i saw the mention of tentacool and all i can say is that it is nothing near usable in my opinion.
    but anyway, i'll just make my general statement now that there's more on it.

    eviolite spinners are just so pathetically weak that it's not even worth it to even try to use them. they follow the same fate as defensive alomomola and amoonguss do--too many things set up on them.

    wartortle is 48th in usage stats. the good news: it's being used less. the bad news: it's still being used enough to warrant such a high and undeserving place. wartortle does not deserve to have the usage that it has for the reason i stated above. rapid spin? can't beat all spinblockers. it can beat golurk?

    choice band golurk (4 hp / 252 atk):
    choice band earthquake: 208-246 (64.59 - 76.39%) -- guaranteed 2hko
    scald: 146-174 (45.62 - 54.37%) -- 48.83% chance to 2hko

    utility golurk (76 hp / 252 atk):
    earthquake: 139-165 (43.16 - 51.24%) -- 4.69% chance to 2hko
    dynamicpunch: 112-132 (34.78 - 40.99%) -- guaranteed 3hko
    scald: 146-174 (43.19 - 51.47%) -- 6.25% chance to 2hko not including leftovers

    maybe, but not if wartortle is weakened; even then, an earthquake (or hey, why not the unusual no guard dynamicpunch for the extra 50/50?) will dent wartortle to where it's easily picked off by whatever comes in next. wartortle's purpose was to spin, but even against golurk, it's likely that it probably couldn't even get to spin because it'll be at too low of an hp afterward.

    now back to my point about being easily setup on, eviolite rapid spin users either have to forego a large amount of defensive investment in order to break substitutes of certain key threats, or they just have to hit shit damage and still lose. wartortle has haze. okay, cool. things like sub bu braviary still maintain a substitute in tact with good health as it brave birds wartortle or whatever wants to try to switch in. the spinner boost defenses. things like sub bu braviary or even sub sd offensive lickilicky (yes, it's actually a usable anti-metagame threat against walls) still do their job by matching defense with attack. it's not worth it to use a weak rapid spinner when it most likely means handing the match over just because you're letting something boost up.

    if you had to choose one, maybe tentacool. but then again, toxic spikes are useless in nu with all the amoonguss and skuntank running around. i never understand why people set them up on me when i'm clearly running one of the two. it's just so idiotic.

    for non-eviolite rapid spinners that are still shaky: spinda and delibird. delibird is self-explanatory; for spinda, it gets walled by ghosts. i'm assuming standard is rapid spin / superpower / return / sucker punch. golurk gets a free substitute or just takes nothing from an unboosted sucker punch. misdreavus gets to will-o-wisp and/or heal bell. haunter gets to sub and disable.

    the only viable ones are armaldo and torkoal. armaldo can set up swords dance or stealth rock. it's not completely weak and can run various types of investment to beat what it needs to. i'm still not really in favor of armaldo though, because it's still extremely shaky against golurk and misdreavus. for torkoal, it can set up stealth rock too, but even rapid spin smashkoal is better than wartortle or any other eviolite user. shell smash as drifblim, golurk, or misdreavus comes in, kill them, then have a free opportunity to spin since torkoal will still have decent health. misdreavus isn't ohko'd, but it does a poor amount with shadow ball after the white herb. haunter outspeeds +2 torkoal, but what's not to say that you're not coming in on a fire blast?

    also, if cryogonal was nu (it moved up to ru right before bw2 was released), it would be the almost on every team, charizard usage would go up, certain hazard setters would probably be used a bit less, and so on. nobody gives a crap about cryogonal being weak to stealth rock. it's immune to other hazards, can recover it off, and doesn't care about any special attacker. it even has the speed and offensive presence to be threatening. therefore, you can go offensive or defensive with cryogonal and beat any ghost type in nu.
    and side note, cryogonal (alongside kabutops) is the best spinner in ru. it's like 6th in usage or something? people caught on to its usefulness while nu is now stuck with sub-par spinners.

    there's my two cents on rapid spinning in nu. :)

    tl;dr, wartortle, baltoy, staryu, and tentacool suck. do not use them. they're all weak.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,151

    Default

    Wartortle gets Foresight, meaning it can "beat" all spin blockers. In terms of pure Rapid Spinning it is unquestionably the best at getting rid of hazards. The Smogon analysis for Wartortle is pathetic, not mentioning Foresight once (aka one reason Hitmontop is so good in UU). While it lacks the offense of Armaldo, the defenses of Torkoal, and Leftovers / SR from either it is absolutely a superior spinner. It also has a wide movepool beyond just spinning (much more than the other two).

    With Wish support Wartortle can last a very, very long time.

    You can't seriously call Wartortle bad when Tentacool is as bad, if not worse. What does Tentacool do that Wartortle doesn't? Toxic Spike? As you said, useless in a tier full of Poison types. It auto-absorbs Toxic Spikes too, but I'm sure you can find some other Poison to run on your team.

    It isn't a GOOD Pokemon, but NU doesn't really have any good spinners.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Brasil
    Posts
    83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    It isn't a GOOD Pokemon, but NU doesn't really have any good spinners.
    That is why I mentiond Spinda (not Delibird, thats was just for lulz), I mean it sucks, A LOT.
    Wartortle has huge bulk and a huge movepool, thats what you get from being around since 1st gen. And like I said, few spineers have use outside of spinning, but those few that do all have something difrent, amog the best Wartotle is there. It is set up bait, but if you are paranoied with that use Seismic toss, only (around) 27 Pokés subs are not broken (if investead) that are in NU, around 12 are used and around 4 commonly carry Sub in there move set. Of those 4 only Braviary and Thorth's subs are not broken by Scald. And Forsight helps with Ghosts. So I don't find it set up bait and like BH said it can last long with Wish support (don't forget Heal Bell). It also has base 80 deffeniise, bosted futher by Eviolite. It also has a great water typing.
    But to contray what I said above about common in NU is not true, NU is unexpected. Every thing CAN shine there, that is what makes it so fun. It is a tire where Charzizard is vaible then you know that the tire is ment to use new things.
    Take Politoed for example, it was vaible in NU gen 4, it also was vaible in UU. Now look at it, one ability made it the 4th most used poke in OU. A lot of usable Toed sets existe, form support to Speced. Same for Tauros set or Ursaring or Seaking sets. Heck I have swept with LO Seaking and been killed by Pikachu Light Orb. NU is made to try Scarfed Shuckle and CB Caterpei.
    Just my weird 2 cents on Wartortle and NU

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Poo
    Posts
    96

    Default

    I don't think you should pass NU off as a 'joke' tier designed to make silly sets for rubbish Pokemon. It can be very competitive and equally as awesome.

    As for Wartortle, it is, for reasons mentioned by others, unquestionably the best spinner in NU. However, I find that there are so many things you need to consider in NU, that Wartortle can never really find a place in my team. It needs Wish Support, and although there are plenty of great Wish Passers in NU, I don't like using any of them and can never make any work out either.

    Ice Cold Fire

  6. #56

    Default

    I wouldn't say Wartortle is the best spinner in NU, just that it's pretty much the only one that will spin provided you're running Foresight. From my experience, Armaldo is undoubtedly the best spinner due to the fact that it's an excellent offensive threat, and its pretty bulky as well. It can also set up its own hazards as a bonus, if you're ever into that sort of thing.

    The thing about Wartortle is that I think it's treated far too harshly. I honestly think it's just a case where a couple people say Wartortle is bad, and then everyone starts jumping on the "Wartortle is the worst thing since moldy sliced bread" bandwagon. There are two main complaints I hear about it, neither of which is as big a problem as everyone makes it out to be. The first is that it's setup bait, and why is that? Mainly because of its low SpA and therefore a weak Scald. It does fail to do a lot of damage to plenty of setup sweepers, and those with a Sub that can survive a Scald just terrorize Wartortle. The solution? Run Seismic Toss! Seriously, by the way some people talk, there's something inherently taboo about running Seismic Toss on this thing. Blissey, Chansey, and Dusclops all get away with it in their respective tiers. Deoxys-D and Xatu also use its twin, Night Shade, at times. There's also Haze, which honestly should shut this argument down on its own. No setup sweeper sets up on a Wartortle with Haze. There's also Yawn, which is a really underrated move. Due to the 5th Gen Sleep mechanics, Yawn effectively forces a switch or knocks out a Pokemon. If you predict a dangerous switch-in or a spin blocker, Yawn it. I can't tell you how many times I've deterred a spin blocker and got a spin off because they didn't want to fall asleep. It also stops any setup sweeper without Substitute.

    The other main rejection is that Wartortle doesn't get past spin blockers. In all honestly, neither do Armaldo and Torkoal, which have been both called better spinners. Torkoal doesn't really get past Misdreavus without a burn or Yawn, which is exactly what people criticize Wartortle for. It also gets OHKOd a small percentage of the time by CB Golurk's Earthquake with no prior damage (not likely, since Torkoal's main purpose is getting rid of the hazards that will obviously hurt it), while physically defensive Wartortle survives a 2HKO most of the time. Armaldo doesn't really beat Golurk without Aqua Tail, which is going to cost you either one of its STABs or Earthquake/Superpower, it's primary coverage moves. It doesn't beat Misdreavus outright either without a Lum SD set or something. Wartortle isn't like them, though. It's not that it gets past spin blockers, it's just that it doesn't care. This means that if you run one set to take on one spin blocker, you're pretty much open to the other.

    BH pretty much gave the details, but Foresight on Wartortle is a HUGE advantage. Since none of the spin blockers can OHKO it (besides some weird Specs Haunter running Thunder), it will get the spin off if it Foresights the Ghost on the switch. On a team I was using a little while back, I ran Foresight Wartortle as a spinner and to tank random moves, and it never failed to spin unless I played badly and wasted its HP switching in and out of stuff. I don't see why people don't emphasize Foresight on Wartortle. I mean, it's a slash on Blastoise's premier spinner set in UU, and it just gets an AC mention on Wartortle's analysis. BH already said this, but it's also the reason why Hitmontop is such a reliable spinner. It doesn't get past spin blockers either, but that never stopped it.

    No, Wartortle isn't the best. But I'd easily say that it's the second best next to Torkoal (who still has to deal with pitiful special bulk, terrible defensive typing, and a weakness to Stealth Rock), and I can assure you that it's nowhere near as bad as people are making it out to be.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,151

    Default

    Wartortle is the best at getting rid of hazards (though Armaldo can also do this decently enough) as there isn't much you can do against Foresight. It isn't really setup bait as it has Haze and Yawn (though it is a "free switch in" for anything that doesn't mind a weak Scald or burn).

    However more teams work easily with Armaldo or Torkoal. You can't just slap Wartortle on a team and hope it works.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Poo
    Posts
    96

    Default

    I think you may have kinda contradicted yourself a bit there, JF, although I get where you're coming from.

    The problem I have with Armaldo is that it does die far too quickly and if you do tailor it to be an offensive threat, this is even more so, and, if you tailor it defensively it can't do much damage, which kinda defeats the main reason you'd take it over Wartortle. The main problem I've seen with Armaldo is its inability to do much to Golurk. Golurk is certainly one of the most used spinners from my experience, and Armaldo is just set-up bait for it, if you encounter such a set.

    Wartortle though, as you say, has a great movepool that allows it to come up trumps against most things that'd endanger other spinners. Seismic Toss and Yawn is a great combo, since the former deals with most Sub-users and Yawn deals with anything that doesn't have Substitute. In additon, Golurk never likes going up against Wartortle because it hates scald. There's a lot of competition for Wartortle's moveslots, but most combinations work pretty well, it's just a case of what your team needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    However more teams work easily with Armaldo or Torkoal. You can't just slap Wartortle on a team and hope it works.
    But this. It's what I was on about before, you have to add Wartortle into your Team Building pretty early on, or it doesn't work out.

    Ice Cold Fire

  9. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Dewott
    I think you may have kinda contradicted yourself a bit there, JF, although I get where you're coming from.
    I don't see how. Nothing in that post is really contradictory. Unless you think my position on Armaldo being the best spinner and my defense of Wartortle are contradictory, but even then I never said Wartortle was the best, just that he's not the worst spinner in NU like many claim him to be.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Neptune, New Jersey
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Of all the 4th gen to 5th gen changes, NU made the most healthy change. No more hippotas+regirock please! Entry control remains low prioty in the tier, since the available spinners are hard to fit on most teams. Luckily the tier lets people experiment with things like dedicated clerics (rest without sleeptalk+an arometherapy/heal bell poke) and the still underateed double dance+red card. i'll use this exampe.
    armalado@ Red card
    adamant nauture 192 hp/252 speed/60 atk
    sword dance
    rock polish
    rock slide
    x-scissor

    This thing(or kingler...) punishes teams damaged by stall in ways you would never dream of in higher tiers, because the free turn of set up, courtesy of its bulk and the things that will swich out of him, can give it the strength it needs to handle the remnants of the opponet's team after your rhydon/ammongus/lickilicky core begins to falter.
    Beyond Names: everything has a counter.
    Beyond Names: its called hax.
    Tuan Sixtus: Color is a stupid gimmick that only amateur film makers use.
    Villain of Time: Even though he is a bot, he is better than the rest of you, because he believes that he is alive.
    Villain of Time: Please note that in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Collector's Edition I actually do have red blood.

  11. #61

    Default

    How does one set up shuckle in this tier


    http://xat.com/VenenoOsicurdad
    come here and well Idk

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Deep Ocean
    Posts
    2,033

    Default

    Just gonna talk about some random poke in this tier
    Beartic suffers mediocre defense and terrible speed. But it function pretty well as a sweeper in rain, taking his good 110 attack into consideration. Yeah it has weakness to SR and stuff, but it can stilll do magic.

    What do you guys think? Is this the wrong place??.

    Credits to Sworn Metalhead

    ASB Squad

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by woebegonenick View Post
    How does one set up shuckle in this tier
    Sadly shuckle isn't even good in NU..


    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Oak
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.
    Shortcut to damage calculator

  14. #64

    Default

    so it looks like absol may be moving up to ru in two days.

    skuntank will have to pick up its slack in place of absol although it has already been quite high in usage. i've always favored skuntank for its nice bulk and being able to use taunt easier anyway.

    musharna is going to have an easier time now too. it can start running hidden power ground instead of signal beam now on non-heal bell sets to hit skuntank since that's the only common dark type left that's being used and the only one that really uses a stab pursuit anyway. i have more thoughts on this but i think i'll wait and see what drops down.

  15. #65

    Default

    I may not be the most experienced RU player in the world, but something's telling me that Metang might drop. Just a feeling.

    Seriously, though, Metang might actually be a welcome addition in NU this time. Before it moved up to RU, it sucked. Now...well, it still sucks, but at least now it's one of the few Pokemon to take on Zangoose and Cincinno...sorta.

    Roselia might also drop if last month's stats are of any indication. That might be a neat addition, since it would give us another decent Toxic Spikes and Spikes user, especially since the only good user of both right now is Garbador (and to some extent, Omanyte). I guess the main problem, though, is that Roselia would be competing for a spot with Amoonguss due to their similar typing.

    Scolipede and Rhydon have been considered to drop by some people, and they might be really neat additions. Scolipede would definitely have the best combination of [Toxic] Spikes support and offensive presence of anything in NU, and Rhydon would just be a great new Pokemon for checking stuff like birds and the avid Normal types.

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Deep Ocean
    Posts
    2,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I may not be the most experienced RU player in the world, but something's telling me that Metang might drop. Just a feeling.

    Seriously, though, Metang might actually be a welcome addition in NU this time. Before it moved up to RU, it sucked. Now...well, it still sucks, but at least now it's one of the few Pokemon to take on Zangoose and Cincinno...sorta.

    Roselia might also drop if last month's stats are of any indication. That might be a neat addition, since it would give us another decent Toxic Spikes and Spikes user, especially since the only good user of both right now is Garbador (and to some extent, Omanyte). I guess the main problem, though, is that Roselia would be competing for a spot with Amoonguss due to their similar typing.

    Scolipede and Rhydon have been considered to drop by some people, and they might be really neat additions. Scolipede would definitely have the best combination of [Toxic] Spikes support and offensive presence of anything in NU, and Rhydon would just be a great new Pokemon for checking stuff like birds and the avid Normal types.
    :O Metang was in RU?! *wide eyes* guess it didn't get a lot of usage then unlike Lanturn :P

    But can anyone link me to the Smogon website where tiers are changed? Thanks.

    So Um.. I'm curious if Beartic is actually usable in NU? Or is ice cream better?

    Credits to Sworn Metalhead

    ASB Squad

  17. #67

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I may not be the most experienced RU player in the world, but something's telling me that Metang might drop. Just a feeling.

    Seriously, though, Metang might actually be a welcome addition in NU this time. Before it moved up to RU, it sucked. Now...well, it still sucks, but at least now it's one of the few Pokemon to take on Zangoose and Cincinno...sorta.

    Roselia might also drop if last month's stats are of any indication. That might be a neat addition, since it would give us another decent Toxic Spikes and Spikes user, especially since the only good user of both right now is Garbador (and to some extent, Omanyte). I guess the main problem, though, is that Roselia would be competing for a spot with Amoonguss due to their similar typing.

    Scolipede and Rhydon have been considered to drop by some people, and they might be really neat additions. Scolipede would definitely have the best combination of [Toxic] Spikes support and offensive presence of anything in NU, and Rhydon would just be a great new Pokemon for checking stuff like birds and the avid Normal types.
    metang can technically counter zangoose and cinccino so it's given a niche there, but yeah it would have absolutely no use otherwise. it's outclassed with dual screens and stealth rock setting. it's just that with a lack of offensive presence, it's easily set up on (unless explosion!). uninvested base 75 is weak.

    roselia was around at like round 0 i think? it doesn't check fighting types well at all which is really disappointing. a lot of the special attackers are water types (with ice beam) or psychic types, so i don't really think it works out that well despite the special bulk. a hazard setter with sleep powder is definitely niche though.

    scolipede and rhydon would be great additions. not much else to be said. i just think that scolipede suffers from being able to set hazards while abusing a monstrous swords dance set. if you try to have the best of both worlds (spikes and swords dance; toxic spikes are out of the question), there will definitely be a lacking coverage move.
    Quote Originally Posted by OceanicLanturn View Post
    :O Metang was in RU?! *wide eyes* guess it didn't get a lot of usage then unlike Lanturn :P

    But can anyone link me to the Smogon website where tiers are changed? Thanks.

    So Um.. I'm curious if Beartic is actually usable in NU? Or is ice cream better?
    metang was forced up to ru from the last tier changes. since ru has a really small number of battles each month, it's easy to mess up the stats. that's basically what happened; there was a small group of people using metang to the point where it moved up to ru even though it was practically a piece of crap in both tiers. unlike metang, lanturn actually has a niche in ru since it checks moltres and grants a slow volt switch.

    beartic and vanilluxe are pretty bad in my opinion. beartic is obviously the more viable one, but it absolutely needs aqua jet and swords dance or else it completely loses to alomomola and anything that's faster than it pre-rain. because of that, it also relies on an outside rain setter which is kind of a crutch. it's almost certain that beartic will take a hard hit or get hit with toxic which will shorten its sweep with life orb. and if you're not using rain, you're basically using an inferior physical attacker of any sort.

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,077

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by woebegonenick View Post
    How does one set up shuckle in this tier
    In all honesty, Shuckle's better in OU than NU but it's outclassed there and you have to play it very carefully but when played well, it works beautifully. Here are not just one but two examples. Surprisingly, it's gimmicky strategies work well in double battles (max defences with Guard Split, it also has access to Gastro Acid for Slaking and Regigigas).
        Spoiler:- 3DS friend-code:

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Singapore.
    Posts
    1

    Default

    I would personally like to use Gigalith in an NU team, but so far all i've got is him as a stealth-rocker. (Due to sturdy, he's likely able to pull off a stealth rock before getting KO-ed unless facing off against something with mold breaker or the like.) I know he's a mono-rock type with terrible special attack and defense stats, but physically offensive wise, he ain't that bad. Any idea what i can run him as OTHER than (just) a stealth-rocker?

    Btw, am new to all these competitive battling things.
    *INSERT RANDOM SIGNATURE HERE*

  20. #70

    Default

    tier shift gave nu MIGHTY METANG
    Quote Originally Posted by Nvache0067 View Post
    I would personally like to use Gigalith in an NU team, but so far all i've got is him as a stealth-rocker. (Due to sturdy, he's likely able to pull off a stealth rock before getting KO-ed unless facing off against something with mold breaker or the like.) I know he's a mono-rock type with terrible special attack and defense stats, but physically offensive wise, he ain't that bad. Any idea what i can run him as OTHER than (just) a stealth-rocker?

    Btw, am new to all these competitive battling things.
    gigalith isn't really that good because pretty much anything else with similar roles outclasses it by doing a little more. you're really not going to find it in any other role outside of stealth rock utility. at best it could run a rock polish or choice band set but at +2 it's still not really fast and its offensive movepool is limited to moves that common things such as alomomola don't mind.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,151

    Default

    Metang is bad in RU, but it has some niche uses in NU.

    With Eviolite and a Specially Defensive spread it ends up with 60 / 159 / 145 defenses. Special Defense EVs allows Metang to switch in on Kadabra, Haunter, Gardevoir, and Exeggutor with ease and Pursuit them. Metang has fantastic typing to take on Cinccino, Armaldo, Zangoose, Swellow and a ton of other things. It sets up Stealth Rocks which isn't particularly impressive, but nothing else in NU gets Steel typing, Pursuit and Rocks all in one package. When it did its job it can Explode, hopefully taking something else with it. It is a great Psychic, Ghost, Rock and Normal check, incredible defensive pivot, Pursuit utility, and a reliable source of rocks. No it can't be slapped on any random team but it is FAR better than people give it credit for.

  22. #72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Metang is bad in RU, but it has some niche uses in NU.

    With Eviolite and a Specially Defensive spread it ends up with 60 / 159 / 145 defenses. Special Defense EVs allows Metang to switch in on Kadabra, Haunter, Gardevoir, and Exeggutor with ease and Pursuit them. Metang has fantastic typing to take on Cinccino, Armaldo, Zangoose, Swellow and a ton of other things. It sets up Stealth Rocks which isn't particularly impressive, but nothing else in NU gets Steel typing, Pursuit and Rocks all in one package. When it did its job it can Explode, hopefully taking something else with it. It is a great Psychic, Ghost, Rock and Normal check, incredible defensive pivot, Pursuit utility, and a reliable source of rocks. No it can't be slapped on any random team but it is FAR better than people give it credit for.
    metang shouldn't be capitalizing on its special defensive side. its main niche now that it's back in NU is to check fraxure, cinccino, and zangoose without being fucked by close combat/other fighting move (unlike mawile, klang, bastiodon, and probopass).

    252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Metang (+Def): 26% - 31% (87 - 103 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Metang (+Def): 23% - 27% (75 - 89 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

    252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Metang (Neutral): 37% - 43% (120 - 142 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Metang (Neutral): 32% - 37% (105 - 123 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    it's only specifically there to stop zangoose, imo. that's it. because if you didn't care about zangoose, you'd be better off using another check to normal and flying types. checking those is just a little bonus from metang.
    from those calcs, it seems to take hits from zangoose comfortably without the investment, but it may not be enough because it doesn't really suffice when the zangoose user can simply just switch out of easily-resisted moves. compounded with the fact that hazards may be up, specially-defensive metang is dead by the second time it comes in. sometimes (even with a fully defensive spread), metang might not even win simply because of the user playing his/her zangoose smartly. however, all you need is to get off one hit on zangoose. it doesn't matter if it's only coming off of an uninvested 75 base attack and if it doesn't exactly kill. that's all you need because it just makes it infinitely easier to kill zangoose afterwards. even if the zangoose user tries to keep switching out of metang, toxic/hazards are bound to rack up. but for that to be ensured, you need the extra few switch-ins which is only granted by a fully defensive spread.

    now the issue with metang is that you're going to be running something along the lines of stealth rock / meteor mash / earthquake / filler. options are explosion, bullet punch, pursuit, etc. bullet punch mostly helps you take on fraxure since metang can only 3-4HKO depending on the item (choice band or eviolite), but it also ensures that you can scare out or punish any zangoose or cinccino. explosion is only specifically to prevent being set up on since metang has mediocre coverage and attack; with that being said, explosion won't be doing a lot of damage and it'll usually be in the face of a substitute of the common things that set up on it. pursuit is painfully weak and even something like musharna laughs at it and wouldn't mind setting up on metang even if it 4x resists psychic. this is why i wouldn't even begin to think about metang as a somewhat dedicated trapper/pursuit user (except for hitting zangoose switching out) that opts for special defensive investment.

    also, i'm just typing this out as i think, so now that i look at it, metang is better off using meteor mash against gardevoir because pursuit is weak:
    0Atk Metang (Neutral) Pursuit vs 0HP/0Def Gardevoir (Neutral): 23% - 28% (66 - 78 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
    0Atk Metang (Neutral) Pursuit vs 236HP/0Def Musharna (Neutral): 12% - 14% (54 - 64 HP). Guaranteed 8HKO.
    0Atk Metang (Neutral) Pursuit vs 236HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 8% - 10% (38 - 46 HP). Guaranteed 12HKO.

    exeggutor's in between those two i guess. i know that's assuming it stays in, but gardevoir can wear down metang significantly depending on its set. if it's offensive, metang is 2HKO'd with hazards i think?; if it's using will-o-wisp, then metang is even worse off. i believe some subcm variants run a little bulk so if you pursuit expecting a switch, gardevoir gets +1 or +2 for free. now the bigger issue here is that musharna doesn't care what metang throws at it and won't mind setting up to +6 even if psychic is pitifully weak against steel/psychic (some use signal beam though). that's a 1v1 situation though; tl;dr of this little psychic-pursuit comparison is that musharna still gets off scott-free. you're still going to need a better musharna check since it's a top-tier threat that champs hits thrown at it. yes i know that metang with pursuit may be geared more towards the frailer psychic/ghosts types aforementioned, but with the need for a musharna (why not defensive misdreavus too?) check around, having something like both skuntank and specially defensive pursuit metang is really redundant... you can run pursuit, but you might as well go physically defensive.

    and lastly, ignoring the fact that it has explosion, there comes the things that can come in on its weak and/or resisted attacks such as ludicolo, mantine, gorebyss, sub bulk up braviary, SMASHKOAL, and many, many, many other set-up sweepers. all five being extremely dangerous threats with two of them being prominent, top-tier ones. yeah i know this is kind of irrelevant since this isn't my main focus, but these are just considerations for why metang needs to be used carefully. amoonguss can at least do something back to a few of them (ones that don't use sub or super-effective stab moves).

    now main tl;dr, metang isn't good nor bad. but for it to not completely suck, it should never run special defense or else you're running an inferior anything really. it has a very small niche in severely weakening zangoose (and fraxure to a lesser extent) that absolutely needs the max defense to do so. and that's the only niche it should be filling.

    and i seriously can't believe i typed up all this over metang.

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Deep Ocean
    Posts
    2,033

    Default

    Since Metang dropped back to NU, is it appropriate to say that it is a viable Pokemon in rain? Is rain actually any good in NU?

    I'm just wondering if this set is actually usable, on a rain team of course

    Metang @ Eviolite
    Calm (+def -spatk)
    252 def/252 HP/4 atk
    - Magnet Rise
    - Rain Dance
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Bullet Punch

    Practically leaves Metang with no weakness for five turns

    Credits to Sworn Metalhead

    ASB Squad

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OceanicLanturn View Post
    Since Metang dropped back to NU, is it appropriate to say that it is a viable Pokemon in rain? Is rain actually any good in NU?

    I'm just wondering if this set is actually usable, on a rain team of course

    Metang @ Eviolite
    Calm (+def -spatk)
    252 def/252 HP/4 atk
    - Magnet Rise
    - Rain Dance
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Bullet Punch

    Practically leaves Metang with no weakness for five turns
    Don't use magnet rise.. it kinda sucks.. "no weakness=/= best pokemon ever see eelektross.

    it can set up rain but it is for offense mainly and you are not using damp rock with that set so it isn't that great.
    Also calm lowers sp.attack and boosts sp.defense I think you meant impish nature.


    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Oak
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.
    Shortcut to damage calculator

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by locket View Post

    metang shouldn't be capitalizing on its special defensive side. its main niche now that it's back in NU is to check fraxure, cinccino, and zangoose without being fucked by close combat/other fighting move (unlike mawile, klang, bastiodon, and probopass).

    252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Metang (+Def): 26% - 31% (87 - 103 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Metang (+Def): 23% - 27% (75 - 89 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

    252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Metang (Neutral): 37% - 43% (120 - 142 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Metang (Neutral): 32% - 37% (105 - 123 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    it's only specifically there to stop zangoose, imo. that's it. because if you didn't care about zangoose, you'd be better off using another check to normal and flying types. checking those is just a little bonus from metang.
    from those calcs, it seems to take hits from zangoose comfortably without the investment, but it may not be enough because it doesn't really suffice when the zangoose user can simply just switch out of easily-resisted moves. compounded with the fact that hazards may be up, specially-defensive metang is dead by the second time it comes in. sometimes (even with a fully defensive spread), metang might not even win simply because of the user playing his/her zangoose smartly. however, all you need is to get off one hit on zangoose. it doesn't matter if it's only coming off of an uninvested 75 base attack and if it doesn't exactly kill. that's all you need because it just makes it infinitely easier to kill zangoose afterwards. even if the zangoose user tries to keep switching out of metang, toxic/hazards are bound to rack up. but for that to be ensured, you need the extra few switch-ins which is only granted by a fully defensive spread.

    now the issue with metang is that you're going to be running something along the lines of stealth rock / meteor mash / earthquake / filler. options are explosion, bullet punch, pursuit, etc. bullet punch mostly helps you take on fraxure since metang can only 3-4HKO depending on the item (choice band or eviolite), but it also ensures that you can scare out or punish any zangoose or cinccino. explosion is only specifically to prevent being set up on since metang has mediocre coverage and attack; with that being said, explosion won't be doing a lot of damage and it'll usually be in the face of a substitute of the common things that set up on it. pursuit is painfully weak and even something like musharna laughs at it and wouldn't mind setting up on metang even if it 4x resists psychic. this is why i wouldn't even begin to think about metang as a somewhat dedicated trapper/pursuit user (except for hitting zangoose switching out) that opts for special defensive investment.

    also, i'm just typing this out as i think, so now that i look at it, metang is better off using meteor mash against gardevoir because pursuit is weak:
    0Atk Metang (Neutral) Pursuit vs 0HP/0Def Gardevoir (Neutral): 23% - 28% (66 - 78 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
    0Atk Metang (Neutral) Pursuit vs 236HP/0Def Musharna (Neutral): 12% - 14% (54 - 64 HP). Guaranteed 8HKO.
    0Atk Metang (Neutral) Pursuit vs 236HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 8% - 10% (38 - 46 HP). Guaranteed 12HKO.

    exeggutor's in between those two i guess. i know that's assuming it stays in, but gardevoir can wear down metang significantly depending on its set. if it's offensive, metang is 2HKO'd with hazards i think?; if it's using will-o-wisp, then metang is even worse off. i believe some subcm variants run a little bulk so if you pursuit expecting a switch, gardevoir gets +1 or +2 for free. now the bigger issue here is that musharna doesn't care what metang throws at it and won't mind setting up to +6 even if psychic is pitifully weak against steel/psychic (some use signal beam though). that's a 1v1 situation though; tl;dr of this little psychic-pursuit comparison is that musharna still gets off scott-free. you're still going to need a better musharna check since it's a top-tier threat that champs hits thrown at it. yes i know that metang with pursuit may be geared more towards the frailer psychic/ghosts types aforementioned, but with the need for a musharna (why not defensive misdreavus too?) check around, having something like both skuntank and specially defensive pursuit metang is really redundant... you can run pursuit, but you might as well go physically defensive.

    and lastly, ignoring the fact that it has explosion, there comes the things that can come in on its weak and/or resisted attacks such as ludicolo, mantine, gorebyss, sub bulk up braviary, SMASHKOAL, and many, many, many other set-up sweepers. all five being extremely dangerous threats with two of them being prominent, top-tier ones. yeah i know this is kind of irrelevant since this isn't my main focus, but these are just considerations for why metang needs to be used carefully. amoonguss can at least do something back to a few of them (ones that don't use sub or super-effective stab moves).

    now main tl;dr, metang isn't good nor bad. but for it to not completely suck, it should never run special defense or else you're running an inferior anything really. it has a very small niche in severely weakening zangoose (and fraxure to a lesser extent) that absolutely needs the max defense to do so. and that's the only niche it should be filling.

    and i seriously can't believe i typed up all this over metang.
    You're very close minded there buddy. In the game of Pokemon there are many different options for each set depending on your team.

    A while ago I made an NU stall team. Turns out I was very weak to offensive Psychics and Haunter, particularly those that could break through Lickilicky (which was most of them...). I needed that slot to set up Stealth Rocks. I wasn't particularly weak to Braviary / Swellow but more checks are always nice. Turns out switching Metang from Phys Def to Sp Def solved all those problems.

    Metang @ Eviolite
    Impish
    252 HP / 16 Defense / 240 Special Defense

    Meteor Mash
    Pursuit
    Stealth Rock
    Bullet Punch / Earthquake / Explosion

    First off I never once mentioned Musharna lol. Metang doesn't beat that (though it can wear down non-CM variants I guess, and at least set up rocks on it). Its goal was never to hard counter much, just force things out and rack up Pursuit damage (which with hazards and LO, quickly either turned into a KO or put it in Bullet Punch range). Bullet Punch is great to help compensate for Metang being so weak. Earthquake was good back when Magmortar was NU but it also beats Magneton. Explosion does solid damage I guess but I didn't like using it on stall. Explosion works better on most teams though.

    You mention it being 3HKOed by Zangoose yet completely ignore that due to the Def drop from CC Metang beats it. Oh and even with a SP Def spread LO Cinccino 5HKOs and Fraxure 3HKOs (but seriously Fraxure?... #103 | Fraxure | 1.977%... no one uses it). Special Defense lets Metang laugh at Haunter, Kadabra, Exeggutor, and Gardevoir (LO +1 Focus Blast 2HKOs my spread ~40% of the time factoring in Accuracy but a Careful spread shrugs it off). It switches in on most birds without any difficulty, barring the occasional BU Braviary or a few crits. Even CB Braviary only 4HKOs.

    Anyhow I'm not going to waste any more time on Metang. I'm not saying Special Defensive is the best, or only spread, just that it works.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •