“...This is a tricky problem, huh. I really, really want to see the other Heroes... and if it works out, I want to make friends with them! If I made friends with six Heroes, I’d be an awesome mage! We could even conquer the world!”
-Flatt Escardos, Fate Strange Fake3DS Friend Code: 1306-5187-6204
I can make such ridiculous claim because for the past month or so nearly every thread has been about Iris and her Dragonite.
I just wish things would go back to the way they were. Is that so bad?
Wow ... there's a lot of controversy here from such a lite convo O.o
Will try to make this fast ...
Spoiler:- Stuff bout Iris Directed at G-A:
You want to keep this up then I will gladly go along with it. If there's a problem with us talking here then maybe we should move to another thread.
To me, Excadrill could have beat Beartic and Mamoswine just as easily as Dragonite could. People hype Dragonite up as if it's this godly pokemon. All it has going for it is it's Deux Ex Machina bulkiness (Tanking Ice Beam which Dragonite is 4x weak to? Really?) and a diverse movepool.
Though Dragonite DOES make Togekiss look good in terms of how it was done. The only problem I have with Iris is that all of the pokemon she gets were disobedient. Emolga was lazy(?), Excadrill was very depressed and Dragonite doesn't listen to Iris' commands. I guarantee that if Iris gets a fifth pokemon, it will be disobedient. If the writers are going to give her pokemon, be somewhat original with how you make them instead of having 3 pokemon which were disobedient at some point.
firstly i would say that excadrill & Beartic are about as strong as eachother.But i think it must be remebered that excadrill dosn't have that great of a battle record it lost to beartic and then after some training managed to draw with it,Just about managed to beat dewott(owned by burgundy who isn't the best trainer.) and pikachu(who had a major type disadvantage and no really effective moves to use against excadrill). Beartic dosn't have a perfect record either in addition to drawing with a excadrill that hadn't trained for two years it was was very nearly beaten by a joltik.So simply put dragonite beating beartic meerly demosnstrates it is resonably strong and thats especially true if it got a critical hit which was why it vs beartic was a one hit ko.Dragonites next two battles will show it's not as overpowered as the hype.
However i have noticed your point about iris so far only axew hasn't disobeyed her although it is true,1 hing to consider they each have disobeyed for different reasons so far(excadrill-dented pride, emolga-laziness and dragonite-dosn't feel it need to).So hopefully if she catches something else it won't be disobediant because there won't be a reason for it to be.Hopefully.
You can't compare Krokorok and Axew. Krokorok has been shown as a competent wild Pokemon since it's intro way back in BW003. It was shown to battle Pikachu a few times, battled a couple of Gym Leaders, participated in a Tag battle, etc. Evolution is the next step to it's development given it's shown past screen-time. The event is appropriate (Pokémon train, and get stronger to evolve), and builds on elements introduced previously. It makes sense with Krokorok's character. This evolution is not being used to compensate for a lack of development like Iris getting Dragonite, or Axew learning Outrage out of the blue while not being shown to be able to handle any trainer Pokemon before hand.And I'm not "calling out" Krokorok ... I'm just saying that it's a DEM asspull win. You know what else is a Dem asspull Win? Axew going into outrage mode and winning that match ... and any big match that's won as a result of a Pokemon learning a move or evolving in the middle of the battle when they couldn't have otherwise won.
Vs Random Trainer with Druddigon: derp Attack, attack, attack.
Vs Drayden: Derp Attack, attack attack, attack.
Vs Georgia: Derp attack, attack, attack, attack
Vs Stephan: *gasp stragety*
Vs Ash: Here, Ash actually used strategy, using spins to increase power of Iron Tail. What did Iris do the entire match? Lol, attack, attack, attack, attack.
Vs Burgundy: Again, here Burgundy used strategy. Shooting water down the hole so Excadrill couldn't dig(and no, dig-a-hole is not a strategy). Also using the move Revenge as a strategy. Once again what did Iris do the entire match? Attack, attack, attack, attack.
Vs Masaomi: Attack, attack, attack, attack.
So, yes I pay attention to her battles just fine. There's no real depth, or strategy in the way she battles.
Last edited by Graham Aker; 12th August 2012 at 5:43 AM.
She wants to be a Dragon Master ... which means she has to train and learn how to connect with different dragon types, right?
But there's a problem with giving her another Dragon Type, she has to raise Axew and the people behind the show have clearly said that there's problems with having him evolve so we shouldn't expect that to happen anytime soon.
Whats the problem? Well, if she gets a baby dragon like Dratini that's somehow better at battling than Axew is then that kinda really makes him look bad and takes his thunder. If she has a dragon that evolves before Axew that also makes him look bad seeing as he wants to evolve but because of how hard it would be to animate Fraxure outside the ball that likely wont happen until the tail end of the series. They also want to promote the games where Iris is the champ and prodigy which is clear in how they handle her a lot of the time. So it's understandable that they would want to give her a strong, fully evolved Dragon that was marketable and would present her with different problems and wouldn't steal thunder from her baby.
So no, I don't think they did it souly to make her look super strong. I think it was done to give her a different angle to work on with a different dragon type that wouldn't get in the way of her raising Axew.
If it evolves as a means to beat an other-wise unbeatable enemy in it's "dire hour" and succeeds then it's DEM. Plan and simple. It's just as DEM as a Pokemon learning a beastly move in the middle of battle that turns the tables in it's favor. This cartoon is RUN on DEM battles, like a ton of anime and Manga are. Here's an example of it evolving and winning without it being DEM ...You can't compare Krokorok and Axew. Krokorok has been shown as a competent wild Pokemon since it's intro way back in BW003. It was shown to battle Pikachu a few times, battled a couple of Gym Leaders, participated in a Tag battle, etc. Evolution is the next step to it's development given it's shown past screen-time. The event is appropriate (Pokémon train, and get stronger to evolve), and builds on elements introduced previously. It makes sense with Krokorok's character. This evolution is not being used to compensate for a lack of development like Iris getting Dragonite, or Axew learning Outrage out of the blue while not being shown to be able to handle any trainer Pokemon before hand.
It's training with Ash before the battle, evolves (Or it battles in the round before that one and evolves after it wins that match), goes into the battle fully evolved and beats Dragonite.
I'm just saying it's a DEM asspull win. Many people who don't even like Iris or Dragonite have called it such ... and that's just the nature of this show. Heck, I see tons of fans who arnt happy that Ash relies so much on DEM-evolutions in BW.
Spoiler:- attack attack attack:
Giving someone a fully evolved Pokemon in their said goal is a short-cut, to avoid them having to show them raise strong Pokemon on their own. Given how sparse Iris development already is, it's safe to say that this was only done because she's near the end of her run and didn't have a single fully evolved Pokemon of her desired type. It's even further emphasized by the fact the issue with Dragonite is solved very quickly, to avoid the "hassle" of what could have been a somewhat decent story-line for Iris.Whats the problem?
No, mid battle evolution's aren't automatically bad writing. When you have a mid-battle evolution that is backed by a good story, character, and believable development then it's not DEM. It's not out of the blue, given we actually have seen Krokorok enough times to justify it's evolution. By comparison Roggenrola had no battle-screen time, had no established character, and nothing to justify it's evolution.It's training with Ash before the battle, evolves (Or it battles in the round before that one and evolves after it wins that match), goes into the battle fully evolved and beats Dragonite.
I'm just saying it's a DEM asspull win. Many people who don't even like Iris or Dragonite have called it such ... and that's just the nature of this show. Heck, I see tons of fans who arnt happy that Ash relies so much on DEM-evolutions in BW.
Deus ex Machina is a previously unintroduced element in a story that solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a contrived way. We've know about Sandile/Krokorok for a while now. Unlike Roggenrola there is logical progression with Krokorok. He appears as a decently strong wild Pokemon, battles Pikachu a few times, evolves, has a Tag Battle with Pikachu, is caught, get's beaten in a gym battle, trains, wins a gym battle, pushed against the wall/struggles, and evolves to get a win. Again, the evolution here is the result of development and not used to circumvent it like Roggenrola's evolution. Krokorok's evolution is not the result of luck, it is based on what we've previously seen from Krokorok's development. And sorry, but I've only see you be the one to call this a "DEM asspull" win. Alot more people had a problem with Dragonite than they do with Ash's Krokorok evolving.
You clearly can't see that her entire battle style largely revolves around just completely overpowering her opponent, through constant attacks. She's clearly not as creative as Ash, or even Cilan (when not using Crustle) when it comes to battling. It has nothing to do with bias. You don't see her taking advantage of the battlefield, pulling out combinations, etc. against the majority of the trainers she's faced this saga. Iris just isn't very creative. Plain and simple.*snip*
Last edited by Graham Aker; 12th August 2012 at 4:58 PM.
I never said DEM was "Bad writing" for a series like Pokemon. I mean, it's generally seen as bad writing but Pokemon isn't a series one links to "good/ decent writing" to begin with. It's a device that's used for dramatic effect, to make a dynamic shift in a battle and entertain the viewers. Given the nature of the demographic (kids and preteens) and genre (anime action adventure) "good writing" by normal standards shouldn't be expected. That's why this show has non-sense like "Thunder Armor/ AIM FOR THE HORN/ Finish this with False Swipe/ Now, SPIN TO DODGE!/ Counter shield!". It's like Bleach or Naruto ... it loves making it's battles more dynamic through dramatic DEM.No, mid battle evolution's aren't automatically bad writing.
Someone used Google!When you have a mid-battle evolution that is backed by a good story, character, and believable development then it's not DEM. It's not out of the blue, given we actually have seen Krokorok enough times to justify it's evolution. By comparison Roggenrola had no battle-screen time, had no established character, and nothing to justify it's evolution.
Deus ex Machina is a previously unintroduced element in a story that solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a contrived way. We've know about Sandile/Krokorok for a while now. Unlike Roggenrola there is logical progression with Krokorok.
But someone forgot to look a lil harder. There's more than one type of DEM. There's 4 with shades between them. Batman can have all the build up in the world of being super smart ... still gonna be DEM when he pulls out just the right gadget from his belt in his dire hour. Ichigo can be shown training an in the hyperbolic time chamber with his dad ... still gonna be DEM when he beats Aizen with the "Final Getsuga". If a character's being beaten in a "no win" situation and suddenly gains some new power or strength that allows them to turn the tables it's DEM. Some unknown, unforeseen force has been introduced to save that character. "Bu bu but!" No, it's pretty simple. If Ash wins that battle because of that evol and not because of some awesome logical game-plan it's DEM.
Too bad, I could look those post up for you but I don't have the energy to look for post from a week or 2 ago just for you to ignore :PAnd sorry, but I've only see you be the one to call this a "DEM asspull" win. Alot more people had a problem with Dragonite than they do with Ash's Krokorok evolving.
You're judging her based on how she uses Excadrill in these battles which you look at in a bias manner. Lets look pass how she uses attacks to deflect and counter other attacks. Lets forget the context of the battles and the decisions made in them. Let's forget that she battles with different Pokemon in different ways (Diva for example. She had to use her differently then she uses Axew or Excadrill ... which shows how she uses her Pokemon's strengths in battle).You clearly can't see that her entire battle style largely revolves around just completely overpowering her opponent, through constant attacks. She's clearly not as creative as Ash, or even Cilan (when not using Crustle) when it comes to battling. It has nothing to do with bias. You don't see her taking advantage of the battlefield, pulling out combinations, etc. against the majority of the trainers she's faced this saga. Iris just isn't very creative. Plain and simple.
so wha do you think is ash vs trip going to start in this episode or the next one?
-XY, already better than Best Wishes.xD
Pokemon Y Team:
3DS FC: 1993-7360-7585
What! What do you mean Sally Nobody can pick locks and escape the prison with a bobby pin. WTF! We're in the 12th episode and we didn't learn about this sooner. DEM! DEM! Even though nothing in the previous eleven episodes contradict her being able to pick locks.
Look I'll agree to an extent that I don't like how Ash is going to beat Iris. Mamoswine seemed like it was pretty even with Dragonite. And yet Krokorok isn't being given the same courtesy and is evolving and somehow seemingly OHKO's Dragonite, I mean sure maybe the Manga Adaptation is wrong, I really hope it is.
But Krokorok's evolution itself isn't DEM since it makes sense enough. And evolution when you're pushed to your limits is definitely not an unknown, unforeseeable force.
I mean after all how many countless times do we see this happening. There's clearly a precedence.
If Sally Nobody was able to pick a lock in the first episode of the first season. You're not going to call it DEM when she picks a lock in the season finale and manages to save everyone. It's been introduced to her character that she can pick locks.
Likewise "pushed to your limits and evolving" is a precedence in the Pokemon anime. So it's not an unknown unforeseeable circumstance, at least not for us audiences.
Because there is a difference between not liking how something turned out and calling what happened DEM.
You can dislike how it went down all you want, but it's still not DEM.
Ash did not go into that battle knowing it would evolve, it was a completely conveniently placed power up that results in his win. It may be common in this cartoon ... but that's because it's an over-used plot device in a cartoon geared towards children. As I explained, it's used for "dramatic effect" and to make the fights seem more dynamic and entertaining. And as I said, I'm happy it happened that way. It's pretty much a guaranteed win when a Pokemon evolves in the middle of a battle seeing as ... that always happens when a Pokemon evolves in battle. It doesn't automatically put them above the Pokemon they beat seeing as it's an unexpected turn of events in their world and that alone can turn the tables.
Last edited by Col-Erase; 13th August 2012 at 5:19 AM.
Is it DEM when a fighter is pummelling another fighter who can't seem to fight back to suddenly get a lucky break and make an amazing comeback, when it was so certain that he was just going to lose just moments before?
Evolution is there, accessible to the Pokemon.
Evolved Pokemon are more powerful than their unevolved forms, the game taught us that. So clearly it would be no wonder why Krookodile would do better than it's pre-evolved form.
Now something like Pikachu evolving into Raichu and beating an opponent, now that's DEM because evolution isn't accessible to Pikachu without a thunderstone.
Krokorok evolves by level up. And we've seen Pokemon evolve in mid-battle through training.
We've seen Pokemon evolving because of emotional reasons. We've seen Pokemon evolving because they were pushed in the corner, and most likely a powerful surge of adrenaline rushes through their body to induce evolution.
Evolution isn't merely a great power that steps in. We've had the anime tell us that Pokemon can refuse the evolutionary process. We've had the anime tell us that Pokemon can induce evolution if they want to evolve at the moment.
It's a tool that they can use. A last resort tool.
An unevolved Pokemon has moves and abilities to use at their disposal. And should that fail them, why wouldn't they be able tap in the power to evolve for that boosted strength and potentially a new move?
Isn't that what people in a war do?
Let's assume for a moment that there's some giant monster creature out there in New York State United States. So the army fires missiles, bullets, mortar shells at this giant monster creature and yet no effect. Are you really arguing that it's DEM that the president ordered a fighter jet from Maine to fly to New York and deliver a nuclear warhead that just so happens to kill the monster.
Because that's what you seem to be arguing, if it's not right there, in the sense that Ash can say "Krokorok EVOLVE!" and Krokorok does evolve that it's some great "powerful" force that solves unsolvable problem. Even though I would compare evolution to that fighter jet in a few states over it's accessible but not immediately accessible.
But isn't that like arguing that a Pokemon that knows Ice beam and three electric attack going up against a grass/ground Pokemon, that ice beam is DEM since it's a great force that solves unsolvable problem.
And before you argue, this hypothetical situation is without knowing that ice attacks do great harm to a grass/ground Pokemon and electric attacks have no effect on a ground Pokemon. No matter how many times electric moves don't work on the ground Pokemon you finally use your ice attack and the Pokemon gets knocked out.
You could only argue that if and only if you knew Batman didn't always keep Shark Repellent on his belt for all we know it could be a staple item because Batman had a horrible experience with sharks at one point, and always wants shark repellent even if he's stopping crooks rob a bank.Like Batman and his belt of DEM. It makes PREFECT sense that Batman would have XYZ in their world ... but it's still DEM when he just so happens to have Shark Repellent at just the right time when he didn't expect to be around sharks.
After all there is saying. "Expect the Unexpected."
And thus I would argue that any place/location that can hold large amounts of water to contain sharks could very well contain sharks. Even if the likelihood depends on whether or not there are actual sharks, it's always better to be prepared than not.
Isn't that why people are supposed to have emergency kits in their vehicle? I mean no one expects to be caught in the middle of a sudden blizzard that causes them to crash and get stuck. Is it DEM that there just so happens to be a blanket in the back seat, warm enough to keep you warm until the blizzard passes?
Plus in real life, I can even attest to the saying "Why didn't I think of it sooner?" So I wouldn't argue that a "lightbulb" moment at the last minute to escape is considered DEM.
After all it's hard to think rationally and intelligently when you're about to be killed by a table saw. And who knows possibly you don't need to use the "convenient escape item" to escape. Maybe the ropes weren't tight enough, why go straight to the laser pen when the more likely action you're going to perform the action of struggling with the ropes.
Of course this analogy is getting way off base here.
But my point is evolution is accessible to the Pokemon. Trainers really can't control when their Pokemon evolve unless stone induced evolution, or maybe trade evolution. So arguing that Ash doesn't know evolution is going to happen, doesn't make it any less accessible.
And again in regards to Axew's outrage, I wouldn't call that DEM for the simple fact, that Pokemon can use up to nine moves during a battle where the opposing trainer is using 6 Pokemon, just by game logic. Granted nearly impossible circumstances, but game logic, says if the right circumstances were to work, a Pokemon can use nine moves. Sure if we use game logic, then Axew would've had to defeat a Pokemon to learn outrage to use it against Golett, but without knowing how Pokemon learn moves, we can't exactly say that it's the same in the anime and thus Pokemon can learn moves during battle. For all we know the move might have actually already existed but maybe it wasn't accessible because it wasn't quite there, knowing how to use the move was incomplete, it was like at 50% but couldn't be used because it wasn't all there. Maybe as Axew was, being pushed into absolute fear of being attacked, instead of inducing evolution maybe the adrenaline filled in the missing 50% of the move allowing it to use.
Again we don't know how Pokemon learn their moves. We can't really understand how a Pokemon learns moves naturally. The only thing I can think of is that, the moves are there (but are like only at 1%), there just has to be conditions that need to be satisfied.
I mean move tutor moves make sense. Watching a Pokemon using a move makes sense. Upgrading moves make sense.
But in-game as well as the anime some moves naturally or TM or egg move, a Pokemon learns a move that's like learning French but with not having heard French before. So like I said the only way to rationalize is the blueprints are there coded within the Pokemon, just certain circumstances need to be satisfied in some fashion to use said moves.
So basically don't confuse bad writing or unfavorable writing with DEM.
This whole debate about evolution in mid-battle being DEM is utterly ridiculous. Someone mentioned the real life example of what adrenaline can allow humans to do in moments of duress that they normally wouldn't be able to do. Pokemon battles, particularly gym battles, or important battles such as in these tournaments, mean just as much to the Pokemon battling as to their trainers, and the fact that the Pokemon wants to win, for it's trainer, ads to that intensity. In a real life sense, these are the moments when Adrenaline would be kicking in like mad. It has always made more sense to me that evolution would happen in a moment of passion or great need, when the Pokemon has reached it's limit in the pre-evolved stage and requires that boost in strength, power, whatever. The show doesn't take into account the "experience" factor when it comes to evolution, as the games rely on. If anything, the Anime is more realistic in that sense then the games, there isn't a magic number for relate-able things in real life. Does it make the battle more dramatic, yes, evolution on it's own is exciting, does it turn the tide of the battle, more often then not yes, but that's the point of the evolution in the first place. Thinking back to when Chimchar evolved into Monferno, his evolution was one of the few examples when his evolution didn't lead to victory. In other situations, a Pokemon evolved just after battling, such as when Charmander evolved. That evolution was more from the build up of all Charmander had just done in a very short amount of time, he was on the high of an Adrenaline rush. I guess the big point is, in the show, evolution comes quite often as a need, when there's really no other way to continue in the moment.
As to this whole debate about Iris catching Dragonite, why is this so controversial to people. Iris didn't intentionally go seeking out a Dragonite, it just happened to be something she ran into. She put herself in harms way to protect it, and ensured it's treatment. She gained it's trust/respect. Did her capture give her a pre-determined powerhouse, yes, but so what, why is that such a big deal to people? It's clear from these battles in the tournament, Iris and Dragonite still are going to have issues that will need resolved, which will build on their story and relationship beyond this tournament. As powerful as Dragonite is, clearly it isn't unbeatable, as it will loose to Krokodile. If Iris had gotten an unbeatable Pokemon, then fine, yeah, everyone's issue with the capture would make sense, but Dragonites have been beaten before, they'll be beaten again. Iris's Dragonite will win some and loose some. The capture happened, whether you like it or not, it's time to let it go and just go with it.
Okay, so I come back after more then a week of absence, and the sillyness still isn't over.. Well, at least I didn't miss any of it :P
Answer to all the bad things in the world: Give up on trying to make everything better. Hence, accepting it for what it is. YOLO! <- Click the link and daw.. -.-
So I would rather Trip either use a different Pokemon. Or someone else falls to Serperior than Leavanny. And if it's not Krookodile/Leavanny then I hope it's whatever potential 2nd round Pokemon Ash uses because at least it would've gotten a win.
I doubt want Unfezant to be used against Serperior either. Pignite is the only acceptable type advantage Pokemon that should lose to Serperior.