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Thread: Original regions

  1. #26
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    @ JX:

    It seems that my discussion is out of sync with yours. And I dislike your way of answering by quoting the bits and pieces which deforms the meaning of the whole paragraph.

    I'm not here to discourage writers to write fanfic of fan-created Pokemon, I was just analyzing why writers don't tend to write fic of fan-created Pokemon.

    Just like I had said before, creating an original world is one thing, creating original human characters is one thing, and creating original Pokemon is another thing. As I see that you mix the issue of Pokemon with human being because they are both "characters" in a fic. Well, it is true to certain extent, but they are in fact two technically distinctive kinds of characters which serves different functions in the fic, hence they should be treated differently. Don't try to blend these three issues together, because they are not the same.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    It seems that my discussion is out of sync with yours. And I dislike your way of answering by quoting the bits and pieces which deforms the meaning of the whole paragraph.
    I'd hate to say it, but yeah, out-of-sync is right. For these two points in particular, really:

    1. If it did distort your meaning, I apologize. But keep in mind that that's simply my way of responding to people (i.e., not unique to the way I'm conversing with you); sometimes, there are specific points in a paragraph that I want to address. This doesn't mean that I'm blowing off or attempting to distort the other points made in the same paragraph. I try as hard as I can to address the main point of what you're saying (as I see it) in what I say when I quote. If I missed the point, bring it up by quoting me back. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that I got your basic meaning in one go.

    2. You're accusing me of doing the exact same thing you're doing to my posts. That earlier post of mine was responding to your accusation that I was going overboard by letting you know you missed the point and the point was X. (X being that list at the end of my post before that.) If you want to make the discussion personal, be careful in responding to your opposition.

    The main issue, though, is that I think you're focusing too much on how I say things instead of what I'm saying. I've already addressed thoroughly why the two points (fan Pokémon and fan characters) are fundamentally the same; I really don't know what else I can add because, honestly, I could just copy and paste my arguments to create a valid response to this discussion. But I'd like to think I'm also not that much of a jerk, so I won't. All I can ask is that if you want to argue against my points, please address them instead of restating your opinion, which incidentally is subjective and vague in your last post, if you don't mind me saying. What makes the two distinctive in your view, for example? How and why are they different? I've been extremely specific (or as specific as I can be) as to how they're the same or so similar that many fans normally don't see a discernible difference between fakemon and canonmon, but you don't really address any of those points that I made. If you want to say that they're not the same, then explain why you say they're not the same (preferably using arguments that I can't refute the way I have been so far by bringing up canon examples and other examples in fandom). It would help the discussion immensely, not only to offer a different perspective but also to potentially add to whatever list of tips we're constructing in creating fan-created regions.

    Otherwise, your theory as to why fakemon fic isn't popular is a decent one, but like I said earlier to Dragonfree, if it's true, then that's sad that our fandom pre-judges work by authors who want to expand on canon. But even beyond that, I don't think that many people really consider Game Freak when it comes to fakemon because, as you and I have both mentioned earlier, fakemon is insanely popular in the fan art realm. Why doesn't it translate to the fanfiction realm, then?

    Beyond that, my main point still stands concerning fakemon. If your theory is correct and if the fandom itself discourages fakemon fic by encouraging readers to pre-judge a story's quality based solely on whether or not it contains multiple fakemon (as opposed to judging a story's quality based on how it's actually written), then that's something we should work to correct.
    Last edited by JX Valentine; 27th July 2012 at 6:34 AM.

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  3. #28
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    Though, just a question: Why are fan-made Pokemon called “fake”mon while fan-made characters are called “original characters?” Aren’t they both just as “fake” or “original” as the other? Or is this term just a holdover from other parts of fandom? (I hope I don't sound like I'm reading too much into this by this question. I guess it's just that since I like writing, I spend a lot of time thinking about how word-choice alone influences one's opinion on something.)
    I'd be extremely surprised if anyone could actually offer a definitive answer to this question, but for me, anyway, it's got to be the delicious punniness of "fakemon" alongside "pokemon." It's just two letters off! Sometimes I read it as "fakémon" to amuse myself. You just can't do that with "origmon," or any other portmanteau you'd want to make out of "original pokémon"--and "original pokémon" is definitely a drag to type out, so it would have to get shortened somehow (to "OP" if nothing else). "Fakemon" comes pre-condensed and is easy to type.

    I'm totally with you on enjoying thinking about why certain words win out over others, or why some just seem to "sound right" when others don't. Fandom is great for that, since it's such a rapidly-evolving place that's constantly churning out its own jargon.

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    I'd imagine "fake Pokémon" comes from the fact that back in the day fake Pokémon weren't usually honest creative projects by fans, but rumoured Pokémon that were purported to exist on the actual game. When people were making a distinction between real Pokémon and those rumours, calling them "fake" made sense, because they were fake and not real; the focus was on the claim that these were actual Pokémon, not on who actually made them up. And even honest creative projects would get passed around and purported to be real, or people would misunderstand them to be real if they weren't clearly stated to be "fake".

    Meanwhile, there wasn't the same kind of flood of supposed original characters rumoured to be in the game that weren't really; original characters were always created by artists and writers who honestly stated them to be original characters.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Just like I had said before, creating an original world is one thing, creating original human characters is one thing, and creating original Pokemon is another thing. As I see that you mix the issue of Pokemon with human being because they are both "characters" in a fic. Well, it is true to certain extent, but they are in fact two technically distinctive kinds of characters which serves different functions in the fic, hence they should be treated differently. Don't try to blend these three issues together, because they are not the same.
    Maybe this is because I’ve just recently joined Serebii, but I don’t see much of a difference between creating original Pokémon and original human characters. To me they’re just OCs. Some of the elements might be different but when you get to the core of it they’re just a character created by the writer.

    I get that you’re talking about creating a species instead creating a member of a species but what if I’m writing fantasy? Am I only allowed to use creatures that have already been created (example dragons and unicorns)? Since saying that I am only allowed to use previously created fantasy creatures is very restrictive to me as a writer. I know that it is not the same thing, but it seems like the same general concept. As long as the species is well written, kept consistent, and incorporated into the story well I don’t see any issue with creating your own species of Pokémon.

    I guess what I’m saying is that a work of fiction shouldn’t be judged on whether something is included, but rather on how it is worked into the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Please remember, we fanfic writers write fanfic because we loved the canon work. Fan artist creates original fan-made Pokemon also because they loved the canon Pokemon. But very seldom we write fanfic of fan-made Pokemon because the love for Fakemon is only second after the canon Pokemon. If one is not interested in Fakemon from the first place, then one will not write fanfic of Fakemon.
    Wait, now I’m really confused. What is the difference between someone making fan art and someone writing a fanfic about original pokémon? That seems kind of bizarre that in one part of fandom it is ok to create your own pokémon but is not in this other one.
    Last edited by Tigereye13; 28th July 2012 at 12:57 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigereye13 View Post
    Maybe this is because I’ve just recently joined Serebii, but I don’t see much of a difference between creating original Pokémon and original human characters. To me they’re just OCs. Some of the elements might be different but when you get to the core of it they’re just a character created by the writer.
    You had answered your own question.
    Yeah, it is true that Pokemon and human are both characters, creating original Pokemon and creating original human characters is literally meaning creating original characters. But the point is the different role they play in the Pokemon World, which results in different treatment. And that subtle differences was in fact the key point to separate original human character and original (fan-created) Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigereye13 View Post
    I get that you’re talking about creating a species instead creating a member of a species but what if I’m writing fantasy? Am I only allowed to use creatures that have already been created (example dragons and unicorns)? Since saying that I am only allowed to use previously created fantasy creatures is very restrictive to me as a writer. As long as the species is well written, kept consistent, and incorporated into the story well I don’t see any issue with creating your own species of Pokémon.
    That depends on are you writing fiction or fanfiction. Please understand that there are differences between the two. If you are writing fictions, no one will restrict your mind of imagination.
    Well, though, there are no solid rules written in stone that fanfic writer must used only what was provided by the canon when writing their fic. But when writing fanfic, there exist some kind of invisible boundaries in every writers mind, which somehow restrict the writers (and the reader as well) to stick to canon. If the fanfic writer go beyond that boundary, it will be like one had alienated him/herself from the main group. It is not anything about bad or wrong, because everyone has the freedom to go beyond that boundary if they wanted to, but normally very few will try to do so because of the loneliness one might experience if they go beyond it. So if you feel you have the guts to go beyond that canon boundary, you are really free to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigereye13 View Post
    What is the difference between someone making fan art and someone writing a fanfic about original pokémon? That seems kind of bizarre that in one part of fandom it is ok to create your own pokémon but is not in this other one.
    I guess the main difference is the visualizability in fan art section and fanfic section. If you designed your own original Pokemon, one single illustration will talk more than one hundred words. Where I suppose that is the major reason why Fakemon is not popular among fanfic because you cannot visualize it, no matter how well you describes it.
    Well, if one could provide the illustration of that Fakemon in your story, it may still work. The rest of your fic will depends on your skill as a writer.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    You had answered your own question.
    What question did I self-answer there? I don’t recall asking one that was answered by what I said there.


    Yeah, it is true that Pokemon and human are both characters, creating original Pokemon and creating original human characters is literally meaning creating original characters. But the point is the different role they play in the Pokemon World, which results in different treatment. And that subtle differences was in fact the key point to separate original human character and original (fan-created) Pokemon.
    I just don’t get why one would be more off limits than the other. With both you would need to have them be well written, kept consistent in what they can do, and be incorporated into the story well.



    That depends on are you writing fiction or fanfiction. Please understand that there are differences between the two. If you are writing fictions, no one will restrict your mind of imagination.
    I know that they are different from each other, but I was using fantasy as an example for something that was of a similar concept. Pokémon are in a sense fantasy creatures. And if someone can write an original pokémon within the rules of the Pokémon universe, shouldn’t they be allowed to create their own pokémon?



    Well, though, there are no solid rules written in stone that fanfic writer must used only what was provided by the canon when writing their fic. But when writing fanfic, there exist some kind of invisible boundaries in every writers mind, which somehow restrict the writers (and the reader as well) to stick to canon. If the fanfic writer go beyond that boundary, it will be like one had alienated him/herself from the main group. It is not anything about bad or wrong, because everyone has the freedom to go beyond that boundary if they wanted to, but normally very few will try to do so because of the loneliness one might experience if they go beyond it. So if you feel you have the guts to go beyond that canon boundary, you are really free to do so.
    This boundary sounds like it would be very dependent from person to person. Some people might say that you can’t change canon pairings, others that you can’t create OCs, or that people shouldn’t create their own pokémon, and the list can go on.

    By saying that the writer must stick to canon, doesn’t that mean that no one should make original regions or original human characters since they are not part of canon?



    I guess the main difference is the visualizability in fan art section and fanfic section. If you designed your own original Pokemon, one single illustration will talk more than one hundred words. Where I suppose that is the major reason why Fakemon is not popular among fanfic because you cannot visualize it, no matter how well you describes it.
    Well, if one could provide the illustration of that Fakemon in your story, it may still work. The rest of your fic will depends on your skill as a writer.
    But isn’t everyone going to visualize an OC a bit differently than each other? If I describe a character with “short, brown hair” aren’t people going to come away with different ideas about how the person’s hair will look? Different shades of brown ranging from light to dark along with what different people might interpret as different lengths for short. I don’t see how a pokémon would be that different since each reader will come away with some variances.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    That depends on are you writing fiction or fanfiction. Please understand that there are differences between the two. If you are writing fictions, no one will restrict your mind of imagination.
    Well, yes. A Pokémon fic is going to be about Pokémon. But this doesn't mean it has to be limited to existing species. A writer can be a fan of the concept of a magical pet able to use moves of various types, can be carried around in a ball, and may be able to transform into a different creature under certain circumstances. Often, young people travel through a region with these creatures and use them in contests of strength or skill against other trainers. The very inclusion of new species with every generation (to me anyway) makes it seem intuitive that a new region could or would include new monsters native to that area.

    Creating a new creature to fill this slot doesn’t mean they aren’t writing about Pokémon, they’re just adding a new addition to the concept of Pokémon rather than using one that Gamefreak made. Even the regional Dexes don’t include the same species all the time – they’re as rotated in and out as the characters and regions. What makes it Pokémon is how the creatures work, not their inclusion in an official list of 649 species (that will no doubt continue to be added to in canon).
    But when writing fanfic, there exist some kind of invisible boundaries in every writer’s mind, which somehow restrict the writers (and the reader as well) to stick to canon. If the fanfic writer go beyond that boundary, it will be like one had alienated him/herself from the main group. It is not anything about bad or wrong, because everyone has the freedom to go beyond that boundary if they wanted to, but normally very few will try to do so because of the loneliness one might experience if they go beyond it. So if you feel you have the guts to go beyond that canon boundary, you are really free to do so.
    What “goes too far” over the boundary is different for different readers, so I don’t get where all this talk of “alienation” and shunning is coming from. Again, not liking fakemon (or anything else in fanfics that might cross one’s boarder of what is and isn’t acceptable) is fine, but I’m not sure why it’s treated like a taboo.

    There’s no set standard in fanfics that the inclusion of “new” stuff can include X and Y, but cannot include concept Z. Yes, writers need to respect the established canon, (i.e. you probably shouldn’t say that Unova takes place on the moon or that Darkrai is suddenly a Fire-type) but when it comes to new additions, I just don’t see why an entire region/country/continent with its unique culture, politics, and history is just par for the course but a new animal is something over the boundary.
    I guess the main difference is the visualizability in fan art section and fanfic section. If you designed your own original Pokemon, one single illustration will talk more than one hundred words. Where I suppose that is the major reason why Fakemon is not popular among fanfic because you cannot visualize it, no matter how well you describes it.
    But what if a person is more comfortable with describing something with words than with their drawing abilities? What if you’re creating a new creature that isn’t a Pokémon for a story? You have to describe those, too. What if you want to do more with your creation that have it be something to look at but rather also want to show how it moves, how it explores the world around it, how a trainer might find the experience of raising one?
    Well, if one could provide the illustration of that Fakemon in your story, it may still work. The rest of your fic will depends on your skill as a writer.
    You can write an alien creature for an original science fiction story without having to provide an illustration, so why would a new species in a fanfic require it?

    I’m not trying to say it’s bad to not like fakemon, I just want to demonstrate why I think they would not in and of themselves be bad in a story.
    Last edited by Ememew; 28th July 2012 at 3:55 AM.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigereye13 View Post
    Maybe this is because I’ve just recently joined Serebii, but I don’t see much of a difference between creating original Pokémon and original human characters. To me they’re just OCs. Some of the elements might be different but when you get to the core of it they’re just a character created by the writer.
    When you're talking about the core of things, yeah, both original Pokémon and original human characters (original aliens, original animals, what have you) are just original characters. And it's not each of those different categories of original characters themselves that make readers associate different categories with different roles. It's the way the author uses these different categories of original characters in their stories that makes the reader associate these categories with different roles.

    For example, a story that is focused on the journey of a trainer in an original region but with hardly any focus on original Pokémon doesn't necessarily need all those fine details that a story focused on the interaction between original Pokémon and human characters would need. In one story, the original Pokémon's roles are not that vital; in the other, their roles are critical.

    I get that you’re talking about creating a species instead creating a member of a species but what if I’m writing fantasy? Am I only allowed to use creatures that have already been created (example dragons and unicorns)? Since saying that I am only allowed to use previously created fantasy creatures is very restrictive to me as a writer. I know that it is not the same thing, but it seems like the same general concept. As long as the species is well written, kept consistent, and incorporated into the story well I don’t see any issue with creating your own species of Pokémon.
    I don't, either. As another example, if an author makes a Pokémon that, by its description, one assumes it's a dragon, but the author actually intends for it to be a unicorn, either that author has not described the Pokémon well enough, or the reader doesn't know the characteristics of the majority of dragons in literature. Whatever the reason, most of the time, it's how good the connection between an original Pokémon and an already-existing element of something can be seen that determines whether or not that original Pokémon is "good."

    But sometimes, what the author wants to create is far too different from anything that the reader has an image of already in their mind. The author may not want the reader to associate their Pokémon with something that the reader already knows about. But the reader doesn't know that, so the reader is likely to associate that author-created Pokémon with something that they already know about anyway. And it's that exact ability to associate two different things (or lack thereof) that can determine whether or not a reader thinks a Pokémon is "good".

    The difficulty of having that association be there for the majority of readers is extremely difficult, and I think that's why original Pokémon are discouraged from being in stories. But, as you say, as the story continues, the chances of those Pokémon being intertwined well in the story increases, which can really bring the Pokémon to life. Unfortunately, upon reading the first few chapters of a story in which originally-created Pokémon aren't described adequately to begin with, readers are hesitant to continue reading the story.

    I guess what I’m saying is that a work of fiction shouldn’t be judged on whether something is included, but rather on how it is worked into the story.
    I agree. But at the same time, if original Pokémon are included, they should be adequately brought to life so the reader can envision what is happening.

    Wait, now I’m really confused. What is the difference between someone making fan art and someone writing a fanfic about original pokémon? That seems kind of bizarre that in one part of fandom it is ok to create your own pokémon but is not in this other one.
    Fundamentally, with fan art (drawings, specifically), all you have to see is the actual artwork. It's there, and you see it. Whether or not it's evocative of any emotion in you, it's still that same piece of artwork.

    But with both art and fiction, it's some form of medium (an image, a video, text) that, again, a viewer can associate things with. It's just the media used that is different. So since with both you can expect the same viewer-work interaction, it should be okay to create original Pokémon using either art or fiction. (It's just the method the author or artist has to characterize the original Pokémon that's different, but that's another point.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    You had answered your own question.
    Yeah, it is true that Pokemon and human are both characters, creating original Pokemon and creating original human characters is literally meaning creating original characters. But the point is the different role they play in the Pokemon World, which results in different treatment. And that subtle differences was in fact the key point to separate original human character and original (fan-created) Pokemon.
    The role [original human characters and original Pokémon] play in the Pokémon world, though, isn't defined by what already exists; it's defined by the author. In a story that focuses mostly on traveling trainers and not so much on Pokémon, of course the role of trainers in the story is magnified more than that of the Pokémon. But if it's a story solely about the Pokémon, then the role of Pokémon is much bigger when compared to those of the human characters.

    But it's this exact flexibility in role that allows the description of original Pokémon vary. In the first story, for example, the description could be rather unseen, and the story could still be great. Whereas in the second, much of the description would have to be focused on the Pokémon in order for the story to be acceptable. Either way, if the reader can successfully envision what is happening, then it's a sign that the story is good.

    That depends on are you writing fiction or fanfiction. Please understand that there are differences between the two. If you are writing fictions, no one will restrict your mind of imagination.
    Well, though, there are no solid rules written in stone that fanfic writer must used only what was provided by the canon when writing their fic. But when writing fanfic, there exist some kind of invisible boundaries in every writers mind, which somehow restrict the writers (and the reader as well) to stick to canon. If the fanfic writer go beyond that boundary, it will be like one had alienated him/herself from the main group. It is not anything about bad or wrong, because everyone has the freedom to go beyond that boundary if they wanted to, but normally very few will try to do so because of the loneliness one might experience if they go beyond it. So if you feel you have the guts to go beyond that canon boundary, you are really free to do so.
    By definition, Pokémon fan fiction is fiction that uses elements of the Pokémon world with which to tell the story. Canon is one of these elements. An author doesn't have to use all of those elements. They can use some existing Pokémon and an existing region or two, but no existing characters, for example.

    In the same way, an author can decide to use an already-existing character in their story. But by using that character, the author has to consider all the canon that the character brings with them. The author doesn't necessarily have to use all that canon in their story, but it may be that ignorance of canon that may tell a reader whether or not the story appeals to them.

    I guess the main difference is the visualizability in fan art section and fanfic section. If you designed your own original Pokemon, one single illustration will talk more than one hundred words. Where I suppose that is the major reason why Fakemon is not popular among fanfic because you cannot visualize it, no matter how well you describes it.
    Well, if one could provide the illustration of that Fakemon in your story, it may still work. The rest of your fic will depends on your skill as a writer.
    What you say is definitely true.

    Which, to be honest, I find really unfair. I don't really find it right to dismiss fan fiction as "bad" just because the reader can't visualize a Pokémon's design immediately upon finishing a chapter of a story.

    As far as original regions go, the author should be able to describe them as well as they describe original Pokémon. If an author does try to incorporate both, they should know what their readers expect. All of this is much easier said than done, of course.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal
    I guess the main difference is the visualizability in fan art section and fanfic section. If you designed your own original Pokemon, one single illustration will talk more than one hundred words. Where I suppose that is the major reason why Fakemon is not popular among fanfic because you cannot visualize it, no matter how well you describes it.
    I understand that writing within a fandom carries different expectations than writing something original, and that there are (perfectly valid) reasons for people to prefer the canon over new things. But why is how well you can "visualize" something new vs something canon a part of the problem? If I make up an alien species for my original science-fiction story, but I don't have a picture to go with it, according to this statement people "cannot visualize it, no matter how well I describe it", or at least will never be able to visualize my aliens as well as they can visualize something like a grey or a xenomorph. That is probably quite true; popular culture has planted a firm picture of little green/gray men in the human mind, whereas my aliens have no such prior associations. I absolutely do have to put more effort into describing my aliens and bringing them to life than I would if I just used greys. But no one is telling people who write about original aliens that they should stop and stick to greys and xenomorphs because it's easier to get mental pictures of those creatures. Why is it okay for the fandom to suggest to fakemon authors that they should stick to canon pokémon just because it's easier?

    (No, no one here has said that all fakemon authors should outright give up on writing fakemon ever again, but the reasons being cited for why people won't read fakemon fic suggest more or less the same thing. People are saying "I won't read your stuff just because it takes more work on your part to convey it and more work on my part to visualize it"; that, imo, translates to "It's not worth trying because no one wants to put the effort into it". When was the last time you said the same thing to a sci-fi author?)

    Yes, there are inherent challenges in making a fakemon enjoyable using only prose. No one denies that it takes more effort to give a clear mental image through words than through a picture. But it's a challenge that is entirely possible to overcome, and it'd be nice if the fanfiction community were more open to giving authors the chance to prove that they can instead of condemning the subject those authors enjoy as the source of the problem. If the only reason someone doesn't like fakemon in fanfic is that their previous experiences with them have been poorly-thought out, why can't they consider giving the subject matter another shot with an author they think does a better job?

    Alternatively, since it's entirely possible that an author is perfectly competent but happens to struggle with fakemon for whatever reason, why is that any different from an author who's great at writing action but bad at dialogue? Why not offer the struggling author advice for improving the part they have difficulty with, then enjoy the results of their improvement in that area, instead of dropping an otherwise enjoyable read entirely or blaming dialogue itself as a bad thing about stories?
    Last edited by Phoenixsong; 28th July 2012 at 8:20 AM.
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    It is no use in describing like this.

    This discussion had become more like a political discussion between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats. Each had different viewpoints and they are conflicting each other.

    Unfortunately, seems like I'm standing on the right-wing.
    Last edited by Crystal; 28th July 2012 at 2:14 PM.
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    Yeah, I talked with Crystal about this, and I REALLY don't get the militant aggressiveness of the pro-Fakemon side (not everybody, but some of them). The difference here is that no one on the anti-Fakemon side is telling anybody what they have to like or being borderline-insulting about it. This is really going to go round and round for ever, and I haven't felt any great urge to engage in it since my last reply because, unlike the pro-Fakemon side, I don't have a great cause for my opinion where I feel I must change everyone's minds. You like Fakemon? Great, go read and write them. You don't like Fakemon? Great, read and write what you do like. Why is that so hard to go with?
    Last edited by Sid87; 28th July 2012 at 2:35 PM.


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    EDIT: Let me rephrase that and try again.

    I apologize if anything I've said is coming across as militant. I haven't really had an earnest discussion about fanfic in a while, so it's entirely possible that I got carried away. I will try not to get so emotional about my argument next time.

    Yes, this is something I'm passionate about; yes, I think it would be nice if more people would give it a chance. I also wholeheartedly agree that, ultimately, if you don't like something then you don't like it and should not bother with reading it. I know more than one reason has been cited for people not liking fakemon or why they're harder to understand, and I have not argued and won't argue with those reasons because I agree that many of them are valid. But if you outline something as a problem with a concept, you're implying that fixing that problem would change your opinion of that aspect of that concept. I, in turn, have suggested (however irritably, and again I apologize) that it is in fact possible to fix those problems, and so now am asking whether you agree that that would cause you to consider giving the concept another chance. If it still would not matter to you individually, so be it. I am simply interested in hearing opinions from the "anti-fakemon" group on that matter, which so far haven't really been given unless I've seriously misread something.
    Last edited by Phoenixsong; 28th July 2012 at 6:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    Why is that so hard to go with?
    Because you said yourself that there are people on the anti-fakemon side who automatically assume that works with multiple fakemon in them don't describe them well by default when you said this:

    But do I have very little interest in a story revolving around several fakemon because I don't think they'll be fleshed out very well,
    That's the point that we're talking about. It's not about whether or not you like them. It's about whether or not you judge someone's work without reading it.

    Seriously, that's all we're saying. Don't judge a person's work before you read it. Don't assume that a writer can't handle multiple fakemon in one story. Yes, it's a challenge, but you can't assume that a writer can't handle those kinds of things for the same reason why no one assumes in this fandom that a writer can't handle multiple original characters.

    That and basically everything Phoenixsong said.

    And I'm sorry for the biting tone of this post. It's just that I've said that it wasn't about liking them and all about whether or not readers were being fair to writers multiple times (as well as the effects that would have on a writer who wants to tackle multiple fakemon, only to be confronted with a community of people who automatically say their work is sub-par compared to everything else in this fandom, even if that's not what they think they're doing), and you guys are still assuming I'm forcing you to like something you don't? Really? It's fine if you want to bow out of the conversation for any reason (even if it's because you feel like you can't convince us to see things your way), but you don't have to guilt-trip your opposition and twist their words in the process. :|
    Last edited by JX Valentine; 28th July 2012 at 7:37 PM.

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    **cough**

    Let's get back on topic then before this thread became personal emotion flaming.

    The OP asked the question of why writers do not tend to write Pokemon fic in original region and/or original Pokemon (Fakemon). This question should then divided into two parts of 1) original region and 2) original fan-created Pokemon.

    I was interested by this question as a general question about the writing habit of most Pokemon fanfic writer (which include myself as well). I personally don't oppose original regions, because I'm writing a fic about it as well. But I am unfortunately on the anti-Fakemon side when came to fanfic (though fan art is fine for me). Therefore I was merely analyzing the reason why writers don't tend to write fics of Fakemon based on my understanding. Though by doing so won't make me want to write fic of Fakemon, and I will not encourage the ones who don't want to write it from the first place to write such fic. This is more about question of interest of all Pokemon fanfic writer, just like it was said by Sid87.
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    First: My apologies if I said anything that offended anyone. It was never my intent to force people to write fakemon, or even read about them if they don't want to. Just to say that I don't think one's story or ability as a writer should be judged solely by the decision to include them.

    Second: I think the problem here is that we've been trying to tackle the "fakemon issue" from the readers' side when the original question was more about the writers' end of a story. From the writers' perspective, I suppose people write about what they're comfortable including in a story. Some people may stick entirely to canon, while others may include original creations (be they characters, regions, or even species of Pokemon).

    What an author is comfortable with writing comes from multiple sources, such as their own interest in a topic, their confidence in handling it, and/or even their perceptions on reader opinion. If a person is not interested in writing a particular topic, that's fine. Write about what you want to. No one is saying that you must include X to be a good story. OCs are OK because no one's forcing you to use them (or demanding that you only use canon characters, for that matter). If you're just not interested in setting a story outside an established region, then don't. If you feel like making your own would be fun, go for it.

    Another reason for the existence or lack thereof of original regions may be the writers' feelings on how well they can handle a topic. Sometimes, an author might also be interested in writing an original character or region (or 'mon), but doesn't feel confident enough in their descriptive skills to do so. Likewise, some people might feel like they aren't able to bring anything new to the table in an existing region (i.e. because they've seen tons of fics set in Kanto and don't know what new ground they could cover) and thus make their own instead. Otherwise, they might be comfortable with writing in either format. All of these are OK. Write what you feel like you can write. Sometimes it's good to challenge yourself by working with a topic you aren't confident writing about, but you should never feel forced to write something.

    Unfortunately the third reason a writer may or may not include a topic also goes back to the readers' side. A person might have the interest and confidence to write an OC but choose not to because they don't think the readers will want to hear about their new character's Pokemon journey. Likewise, a writer might want to write about Ash and co. but won't because they don't see much reader interest for the anime-canon characters. This is also true of regions and, yes, original Pokemon. Some people might have the interest and confidence in their description to write about a brand new creature, but opt not to because they feel like their work will be avoided for its mere inclusion.

    Again, I'm not saying that you must read fakemon fics, the same way I'm not advocating that you have to read stories centered only in established regions. I'm just bringing up this last point to explain that one of the reasons I think certain topics are used or avoided is because people feel they will be judged on what they include instead of how well they write about it.

    Short version: People write about what they want to write about. People will choose to read what they want to read. Just try not to say that the inclusion of topic X is objectively a bad decision.

    On description: Yeah, being able to describe something well is important if you include something new (or even something obscure from canon that people might not recognize by name alone). In either case (or in original writing) people might not have the exact same mental image of what is described as the author has, but I'm not sure how much the exactness of the description matters. As long as the person reading the story can get an idea of what something looks like and they story's enjoyable enough to read, does it matter if the author's idea of an original creature looks somewhat different from what the reader perceives?
    Last edited by Ememew; 29th July 2012 at 12:02 AM.
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  17. #42
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    Sorry if anything I said came off as militant aggressive, or anything that I will write because that is not what I am intending to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyBraviary∞ View Post
    What's the thing with original regions??

    There are tons of brilliant original (read: fake) regions up on the sprites section, so why not in the fanfiction section too? Why don't people write stories set in their own regions, with their own Pokemon? It would be fantastic to read and I for one enjoy reading original region fics.

    The main point behind this question is that I've got a pretty good outline for an original-region fic myself and I'd love to put it up, except I'm not quite sure about some problems that might be faced while writing it. Currently, I suspect the problem is with description, and that's one of my weak points.
    Well, I think it in part comes down to the fact that some people aren’t all that willing to break away from what they already know or that when sticking with what they know, they already know there will be other people willing to read what they write. With an original region or original pokémon, the writer won’t know how well fandom will react to what they are writing. And anyone writing wants to get some good feedback. If the writer perceives the community that they are writing in as unwelcoming to the type of story that they are writing, then they won’t write it.

    Another reason could be that some people might not either feel like writing one, taking the time to create one, or feel that they could accurately portray what they want to get across. Which is a shame since by creating one’s own region with some of its own pokémon could be seen as a world building exercise within the rules of an established world.

    If you, as a writer, want to write about original regions then go for it. If you want to write about original pokémon also go for it. The decision to populate the region with any original pokémon, and how many of them you decide to use, should always be left up to the writer and no one else. If you use or don’t use original pokémon or original regions is up to the writer and not the readers.

    If using original pokémon becomes distracting to people then readers and reviewers should try to give some advice to the writer of how to improve and better incorporate them into the story instead of just saying to remove them.

    Personally, I would see creating an original region to be a bit harder to do than say a species of creatures, though that could just be me. With an original region you might want to create a map for your own personal use so that you make sure that you don’t forget details of the region or misremember where something is. It can also serve as a way to figure out what kind of environment you have planned out along with what would probably live in each area.

    If you have trouble with description then I suggest finding a beta reader. Getting someone who can tell you what works and what doesn’t can help you work on your weak points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyBraviary∞ View Post
    What's the thing with original regions??

    There are tons of brilliant original (read: fake) regions up on the sprites section, so why not in the fanfiction section too? Why don't people write stories set in their own regions, with their own Pokemon? It would be fantastic to read and I for one enjoy reading original region fics.

    The main point behind this question is that I've got a pretty good outline for an original-region fic myself and I'd love to put it up, except I'm not quite sure about some problems that might be faced while writing it. Currently, I suspect the problem is with description, and that's one of my weak points.
    I think it boils down to a few key points. Fanfic writers tend to see writing through two lenses: Original, and fanfic. When writing a fanfic, they're doing so (not to generalize, but) because they want to further explore the characters, locations, and associated storylines further. The drive to write a fanfic is because they're trying to bring to life an idea they'd love to see in the canon, but don't expect/doubt will ever occur. Maybe I'm projecting, because I'm writing a fanfic based around the anime, with serious, dark, and gritty themes. I'd love to see that done in a more official avenue. I think it's something that happens a lot more "officially" in comic books. The story of Spider-Man is told again and again, but through different scopes and lenses.

    Likewise, they view original work as something else. They're creating from the ground up. Everything is pulled from their own mind. I think we so rarely see original regions and original generations of pokemon in fanfic is because if they're going to put so much effort, time, and creativity into one story, so much background, then they might as well change the rest of it and make it truly their own. Not to say it doesn't happen, but I think the inspirations for fanfic just clash with putting that amount of original content into it.

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    I think it has to do exactly with Tonberry said above. I myself have a fic, mind you with one chapter only and which has stalled for months now, in an original region. I got stuck on the starters. It's not so much designing the region, its designing the culture, the people. But it also has its benefits. If you can go past the hardships, it can probably end up being a better experience than just writing in a pre-set region. You enhance world crafting. And I love playing around with cultures.

    Pokemon wise, making a whole new set is hard, so for my region, Taruni, theres a mix of old Pokemon, with some new ones added as I see fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy95 View Post
    Guys, I have a question based around original regions - this is important for me, as I'm working on an original region.

    So, for this region, do I do it in the style of the games, with eight gyms and around 15/16 towns/cities, and a selection of places of interest, or do I do it anime-style, making it much larger, with a variety of towns cities and places of interest, and lots of gyms with the potential to have larger badges cases, and gyms that aren't just type-themed? I mean, Kanto and Johto were shown to have 37 badges between them. What would you recommend?

    As for Fakemon, I do like them, but I wouldn't personally use them in a story unless I had images up of their appearance, of which I'm working on.
    The thing about the games is that they suffer from what Model Railroaders call "Selective Compression". We cannot model the entire distance between Chicago and Indianapolis, or Paris to London, or whatever, in our basements so we chop out the unessential parts and long expanses of nothingness to make it fit. The games are (or at least were) subject to the same issues: there's only so much data they can cram into a memory card. So they cut out the nonesential distances. I think what's bst for you is to lay out your major cities as your story will handle them, and figure out how many chapters between them you feel you'll need to spend. If your traineris taking a long tme to train, then you'll need a Pokemon Center, which usually means a village will follow it. If it's a short few sprints across the plain, then odds are civilization is also going to not stop long enough to set down roots, and voila, no small town.

    The other good trick is what every mapmaker in the world does, they base their maps on a general locale. Whether you buy into "The Pokemon regions ARE Japan" Or the theory that the regions are just shaped like areas of Japan, that still means the designers had reference points. Unova, for example, is a slightly greener version of New York City. That means there's probably nothing between two cities, because there's nothing between Manhatten and the mainland. If you base your region on something like Kansas, you're going to have huge population centers and a whole lotta nuthing. A Region built around the Appalachians will have major porttowns, but because mountains take up a lot of realestate, your population centers are going to be stretched out, and you'll have a lot of little rest-stop towns and mining villages.

    As for personal tastes, I don't mind original regions or Pokemon, as long as their done right. One has to ground oneself very well with believeability to do it right. That is true in anything we write, but GF has done the defining already, and that's sometimes easier to work with than something you set the boundaries yourself. My prefernce as a writer is to crawl into existing regions that have been tossed aside and forgotten, I find it more fun to be working within those pre-established boundaries and yet still have a limited freedom to do whatever the heck I please. Hence, I'm starting in Orre under the premise of repopulation of an area that was ravaged by man, and Ardos says once in a conversation "Perhaps you are not familiar with the developments in the Holon Region"

    Yep, I'm breaking out the TCG canon...
    Last edited by Glover; 28th August 2012 at 12:30 AM.
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    I usually prefere fan made regions, as I am currently created my own in my fic. I think they're much better as you can literally make them out to be whatever you want, you have so much more space for creativity. Of course it has to be well thought put though, however, fake Pokemon is something I don't usually like (funny isn't it?) I just think that ya know, you would waste so much time creating and describing these creatures that it would maybe drown the reader? I dont know... If Fakemon were done correctly and in a way that made me believe what I was reading, then I suppose it would be an amazing fic-everything brand new! But still with the same concept of 'Pokemon!'
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    original regions is cool! it's fun to read and make.

    but making your own pokemon... i'm not to sure. i guess it depends on how far you go with it. if you make over 100 -or even 10- pokemon it would be to confusing! but one or two would be just fine, as long as it has a name, a good description, and personality.
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    I too, am making my own region, mostly because it gives me the freedom to write what I what, to make my own story line. If I were to write about the Kanto region, I would be restricted to what the map prides for me, leaving little oppertunity for creativity. Upon making my Kanlee region, I created everything that I wanted in a region. As I write, I slowly build it together for the reader, letting them know the basics of the region, then I'll start giving them the legends and secrets that I created myself.

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  24. #49

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    Imagine if you will:

    Gamefreak announces a new 6th generation with a twist: there's nothing new other than the region and its people! There are a total of ZERO new Pokemon! There's nothing there but oldcomers, but this IS the 6th generation fullstop! I'd say you'd think you were getting trolled!


    In all seriousness, my motto is, if you can't be buggered to describe the classics, then don't even bother with the Fakemon descriptions.

    I don't remember where (it was NOT this site) where I saw a Fanfic with Fakemon that had a Fakemon and an Abra. The writer had the audacitic chudspah to say "You already know what Abra looks like but this Fakemon..." NO! Sorry, bad writing. Describe the Abra too! Pretend we've never seen one its kind before!

    The trick is to treat all Pokemon the same while writing your story, even if they're fantasized in your head. If I take time to treat a Ratatta with detail and intrigue as I would a Fudgie or Gawdzoola, then you will fall in love with all 3 given enough time alongside them all.


    That's not to say, an Author should REALLY prepare. Personally, I'm overprepared with 500+ Fakemon. I need help... I'm running out of ideas!

    The point is, a geographic location should have creatures that are newly native to it. It's a law of nature that just makes sense!

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    Hate to bump my own post, but that was about 2 weeks ago and I'd rather not start a new thread on the same subject. To the point...

    I've noticed growing aversion to Fakemon, and that bothers me. I'm wondering if there are things that can be done to increase Fakemon appeal. I've got pointers, idea, clever ways to MAKE them, and if anyone wants to know, I could divulge the secrets to making 500+ of them.

    Or does anyone's interest even piqued?

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