Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 53

Thread: Self Defense

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default Self Defense

    Self Defense: Is it good or bad? How much should you apply? When should you apply it? What should you use for self defense?

    There are many high profile cases in the media lately. There was the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case. George Zimmerman claims he was attacked by Trayvon Martin and was forced to defend himself by shooting the teen once in the chest. A trial eventually ruled in favor.

    Marissa Alexander is woman who claimed that she fired a warning shot at her abusive husband in self defense. Her husband fled the house with the kids and called 911. Alexander was arrested and after a trial was convicted and currently faces 20 years due to mandatory sentencing laws. She is awaiting a resentencing court date.


    I believe that self defense is always a good thing and that you should be able to apply as much as is necessary to stop the threat using whatever weapon best helps you. Many self defense situations end before anybody gets hurt because the aggressor runs away when he or she sees a weapon.

    GZ was unable to leave due to being on the ground with TM on top of him. Classic case of self defense.

    Marissa Alexander left the room, went to her vehicle in the garage and retrieved her gun. She passed multiple exits from the home coming and going. She then returned to the kitchen and fired a shot at her husband. Not self defense.

    Lets try very hard not to turn this into a Gun Control issue. Guns are effective tools for people to use in self defense situations.

    Please don't focus on just the mentioned cases. Feel free to bring up other cases to discuss.
    Last edited by LDSman; 21st March 2014 at 2:50 AM.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Hoenn
    Posts
    1,751

    Default

    Glad to see that my suggestion was made a reality.

    Anyways, self defense is only when you are attacked by an aggressor, ie you are attacked first. If you're being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself until you are either able to get away safely, or neutralize the threat. It is not self defense when you attack someone first, or you purposely stay in a situation where you have the opportunity to escape unharmed.

    I hear way too many people use the term self defense the wrong way and it really irks me. If you start the fight, you are the aggressor and are not acting in self defense.

    As for what you should be able to use, it really depends on h e threat level. If the aggressor has a weapon, such as a knife r gun, you should've a lento use your own, such as if you have a concealed carry weapon. I see these as more of deferents than anything else, but if the situation calls for gym, then by all means use them.
    Last edited by Cloneblazer12; 21st March 2014 at 3:01 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Glad to see that my suggestion was made a reality.

    Anyways, self defense is only when you are attacked by an aggressor, ie you are attacked first.
    Depending on the situation, you don't have to wait to be attacked. Someone waving a weapon around and screaming "I'll kill you!" or coming at you in a clearly threatening manner can be grounds for an immediate reaction. Granny can't dodge that well.

    If you're being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself until you are either able to get away safely, or neutralize the threat.
    In some states you are not required to try and get away.

    It is not self defense when you attack someone first, or you purposely stay in a situation where you have the opportunity to escape unharmed.
    Again depends on the situation. I'd rather not wait until someone who is threatening me or someone else decides to actually attack. It might be the last thing you do. An escaping isn't always legally required. Partly because that involves turning your back on someone and because it's often arbitrary what constitutes "escape."

    I hear way too many people use the term self defense the wrong way and it really irks me. If you start the fight, you are the aggressor and are not acting in self defense.
    Depends on what you consider "starting" a fight to be. I usually go with the first illegal act.

    As for what you should be able to use, it really depends on h e threat level. If the aggressor has a weapon, such as a knife r gun, you should've a lento use your own, such as if you have a concealed carry weapon. I see these as more of deferents than anything else, but if the situation calls for gym, then by all means use them.
    Some people go for a threat escalation tree and that just doesn't work for a lot of people. Granny can handle a gun just fine but no one expects her to fight off an unarmed assailant with her own hands.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Hoenn
    Posts
    1,751

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Depending on the situation, you don't have to wait to be attacked. Someone waving a weapon around and screaming "I'll kill you!" or coming at you in a clearly threatening manner can be grounds for an immediate reaction. Granny can't dodge that well.
    Depends on if you feel that the 'Ill Kill you' threat can be backed up. If someone seems dangerous, then yes, it's justified. However, if it's someone who doesn't pose a threat, such as some cranky old man, there's no need.

    In some states you are not required to try and get away.
    That's true, but sometimes it's better to get away if you have the chance. If you've fended the attacker off, why stay when you can distance yourself from him to ensure your safety?

    Again depends on the situation. I'd rather not wait until someone who is threatening me or someone else decides to actually attack. It might be the last thing you do. An escaping isn't always legally required. Partly because that involves turning your back on someone and because it's often arbitrary what constitutes "escape."
    Yes, it's situational. No argument there. As for escaping, like I said above, if you've fended off the attacker to the point where he can't da anything (such as removed a gun he might have had), it's best to remove yourself from the situation. I'm not saying you should turn your back on someone if they can still harm you. That's just stupidity.

    Depends on what you consider "starting" a fight to be. I usually go with the first illegal act.
    I consider starting the fight to be throwing the figurative first punch, which can also be literal. If that's not clear, I mean taking an argument and getting into sketchy topics that are personal and can set off a trigger on the other person.

    Some people go for a threat escalation tree and that just doesn't work for a lot of people. Granny can handle a gun just fine but no one expects her to fight off an unarmed assailant with her own hands.
    I should've clarified what I said better. If your attacker has a weapon, you're entitled to your own. However, using your own weapon is situational. You don't need to stab someone if you're simply able to overpower them easily. Same goes with shooting them. However, I see no harm in trying to use them as a scare tactic to try and scare them off.


    Btw, probably won't answer again tonight, as I'm going to bed soon.
    Last edited by Cloneblazer12; 21st March 2014 at 3:31 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,245

    Default

    That is all well and good, but the definitions of "self-defense" are not always as clear cut. (Certainly, they are very different than "stand your ground", a new and controversial concept).

    Most jurisdictions define justified self defense this way:

    "Justification does not make a criminal use of force lawful; if the use of force is justified, it cannot be criminal at all."

    The defense of justification (Penal Law art. 35) affirmatively permits the use of force under certain circumstances... The defense does not operate to excuse a criminal act, nor does it negate a particular element of a crime. Rather, by recognizing the use of force to be privileged under certain circumstances, it renders such conduct entirely lawful...

    In this regard, the current statutory defense reflects the common-law "right" of an individual to repel a threat to life or limb... Defense of oneself or one's relations, deemed a natural, inalienable right at common law, justified the use of force, making even homicide lawful.
    * Sources for that are Glanville Williams Textbook of Criminal Law by Dennis Baker (London: 2012), and the People v. McManus case, 1986

    However, this does have limits. Killing an unarmed burglar who was no threat to you is not justified, and in such a case, would not support such a defense: However, the owner or lawful possessor of property has a privilege to use any degree of non-deadly force necessary to protect his possession or recover his property, regardless of no physical threat to his person.

    'Property' is more than just the physical thing—the land, the bricks, the mortar—it is also the sum of all the rights and powers incident to ownership of the physical thing. [T]he right to use the physical thing to the exclusion of others is the most essential and beneficial. Without this right all other elements would be of little value.'

    The ownership and possession of property confer a certain right to defend that possession, [including] a defense of it which results in an assault and battery, and that which results in the destruction of the means used to invade and interfere with that possession.
    For this, I reference rulings made in Dickman v. Commissioner, 465 and People v. Kane, 131 N.Y. 111. (By the way, I tried to provide links to these cases, but apparently, you need authorization I don't have.)

    The biggest problem is, people have used this defense as an excuse many times. If someone is no longer a threat, the self-defense claim is not longer valid. For example, let me dispel a myth: If a burglar surrenders or tries to flee, you are NOT allowed to shoot him. Nor can you beat a man to death solely upon the claim that he struck you first.

    New York Penal Law section 35.15 effectively ordains that:

    "A person may... use DEADLY physical force upon another person" "when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be NECESSARY to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be .... a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or ROBBERY; or (c) ... a burglary...."
    (I didn't all-cap those three words myself, btw, they actually appear that way on the document.)

    There is no duty to retreat under these circumstances. However, if one is "challenged" in a bar for a fight, for example, accepting such challenge and using deadly force, instead of walking away, generally will not constitute a self-defense. (It likely will constitute a lawsuit from the owner of the bar, I should mention, to anyone who has seen such things in movies and thinks they're glamorous.)

    I could go on and on, but my point is this: Anyone who thinks fighting is the answer whenever there is a crisis is on the wrong path. Ever hear the old phrase "Live by the sword, die by the sword"? You think violence is the answer to everything, then sooner or later, you'll regret it.

    One of my favorite songs is Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown, a song about a tough guy who thought violence was the answer to everything. Now what happened to him at the end of the song?

    Oh, and by the way:

    GZ was unable to leave due to being on the ground with TM on top of him. Classic case of self defense.
    You forget, we have to take GZ word on that. And given recent events, I wouldn't.
    Last edited by Maedar; 21st March 2014 at 11:47 AM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Inside Vespiquen. With Combees
    Posts
    137

    Default

    Things like right or wrong are just very hard to decide when there's no witness nor evidence.


    Im in favor of it, though. I think everyone has a right to defend theirselves.

    Dustox deserves a Special version of Huge Power! C'mon GameFreak!

    #TeamFroakie
    #TheCascoonOfDestruction
        Spoiler:- :

    I have... A WATER-TYPE FRIEND SAFARI! The first type I used to really like!
    and another one I don't know about..

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silicone View Post
    Things like right or wrong are just very hard to decide when there's no witness nor evidence.


    Im in favor of it, though. I think everyone has a right to defend theirselves.
    Silcone, you forget, the terms Legal and Moral are not always mutual.

    There have been several laws even in this country that modern Americans view as very immoral, like say, the Dread Scott decision, the Fugitive Slave Act, and the Jim Crow laws. All were immoral and unethical by today's standards, but at the time, they were the law (because they were made by equally-immortal lawmakers).

    And sometimes self-defense can go to far. This may seem a ridiculous comparison, but ever watch The Powerpuff Girls? Know how Fuzzy Lumpkins goes berserk whenever anyone so much as sets foot on his property, to the point of reacting with violence whenever someone does?

    Yeah, extreme example, but that is perhaps what could happen if such laws were taken to extremes.
    Last edited by Maedar; 21st March 2014 at 12:41 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    - Albert Einstein

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Inside Vespiquen. With Combees
    Posts
    137

    Default

    I'm not really familiar with US laws, so...


    I think the solution lies in a universal way of defending yourself, something non-lethal, like pepper spray(not really sure if it's non-lethal) or a flash bomb

    Dustox deserves a Special version of Huge Power! C'mon GameFreak!

    #TeamFroakie
    #TheCascoonOfDestruction
        Spoiler:- :

    I have... A WATER-TYPE FRIEND SAFARI! The first type I used to really like!
    and another one I don't know about..

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715

    Default

    I do not carry a weapon but I have trained in martial arts for the better part of a decade and am capable of handling myself. If some was to attack me bare handed I will do everything in my power to incapacitate them without killing them, knocking them out, choking them out, crippling kicks to the knees or breaking other bones that will leave them in enough pain to no longer move, but alive.

    However, if they attack me with a weapon and I have no other choice but to defend myself, I will not hesitate to take their life. By attacking me with a weapon their intent is unclear whether or not they mean to kill me, I will have no choice but to assume they mean to cause me mortal harm, in that case it is me or them, and I chose me.

    B
    Last edited by BJPalmer85; 21st March 2014 at 3:08 PM.
    I like to breed to Pokemon (except IV breeding, i have no interest in it)*. If you have any requests please PM or email me and I will see what I can do to help you. I also have TONS of items.**

    Email: pokemonmaster2385@gmail.com (please include "username" @ serebii forums in the heading)
    *I can breed all Pokemon in X&Y now.*
    **Items are in BW & B2W2 only**

    Pokemon Y friend code: 3797 - 7081 - 3314
    Pokemon X friend code: 4296 - 4159 - 0229


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Depends on if you feel that the 'Ill Kill you' threat can be backed up. If someone seems dangerous, then yes, it's justified. However, if it's someone who doesn't pose a threat, such as some cranky old man, there's no need.
    Cranky old men can be dangerous too. That old fool who shot that 14 year old kid and claimed self defense. The jury disagreed and put him in jail.

    That's true, but sometimes it's better to get away if you have the chance. If you've fended the attacker off, why stay when you can distance yourself from him to ensure your safety?

    Yes, it's situational. No argument there. As for escaping, like I said above, if you've fended off the attacker to the point where he can't da anything (such as removed a gun he might have had), it's best to remove yourself from the situation. I'm not saying you should turn your back on someone if they can still harm you. That's just stupidity.
    Sometimes that is true.



    I consider starting the fight to be throwing the figurative first punch, which can also be literal. If that's not clear, I mean taking an argument and getting into sketchy topics that are personal and can set off a trigger on the other person.
    Fighting words aren't generally allowable as a reason for physically attacking someone. Suing them yes, hitting them no.
    http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fighting-words/


    I should've clarified what I said better. If your attacker has a weapon, you're entitled to your own. However, using your own weapon is situational. You don't need to stab someone if you're simply able to overpower them easily. Same goes with shooting them. However, I see no harm in trying to use them as a scare tactic to try and scare them off.
    Even if you attacker doesn't have a weapon, you are allowed one. You can be beaten to death with fists and feet. Using a weapon as a scare tactic can backfire and get you arrested for brandishing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    That is all well and good, but the definitions of "self-defense" are not always as clear cut. (Certainly, they are very different than "stand your ground", a new and controversial concept).
    SYG is self defense. You still have to prove you were in danger and feared for your safety and/or life. It only prevents arrest when you have proven that you were defending yourself.

    Most jurisdictions define justified self defense this way:



    * Sources for that are Glanville Williams Textbook of Criminal Law by Dennis Baker (London: 2012), and the People v. McManus case, 1986
    http://www.leagle.com/decision/198660867NY2d541_1553
    McManus shot into a group of teenagers that were attacking his friend killing one. The courts tried him and while ruling that he was justified in shooting, he was also guilty of depraved indifference. The court lost that argument on appeal. Can't claim that it was justified for one murder charge and not justified for a different type of murder charge when it's the same event.
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...m/Self-Defense


    However, this does have limits. Killing an unarmed burglar who was no threat to you is not justified, and in such a case, would not support such a defense: However, the owner or lawful possessor of property has a privilege to use any degree of non-deadly force necessary to protect his possession or recover his property, regardless of no physical threat to his person.
    How do you know the burglar is unarmed and is not a threat? A burglar who continues to try and break in or doesn't give up when confronted is still considered a threat in most states.


    For this, I reference rulings made in Dickman v. Commissioner, 465 and People v. Kane, 131 N.Y. 111. (By the way, I tried to provide links to these cases, but apparently, you need authorization I don't have.)
    Dickman v. Commissioner
    http://supreme.justia.com/cases/fede.../330/case.html
    What does an IRS case have to do with self defense?


    The biggest problem is, people have used this defense as an excuse many times. If someone is no longer a threat, the self-defense claim is not longer valid. For example, let me dispel a myth: If a burglar surrenders or tries to flee, you are NOT allowed to shoot him. Nor can you beat a man to death solely upon the claim that he struck you first.
    I think most people already know that.

    New York Penal Law section 35.15 effectively ordains that:

    (I didn't all-cap those three words myself, btw, they actually appear that way on the document.)

    There is no duty to retreat under these circumstances. However, if one is "challenged" in a bar for a fight, for example, accepting such challenge and using deadly force, instead of walking away, generally will not constitute a self-defense. (It likely will constitute a lawsuit from the owner of the bar, I should mention, to anyone who has seen such things in movies and thinks they're glamorous.)
    Accepting the challenge would get you into some trouble. However, if the person trying to start the fight lays hands on the other person or swings on you, then you are still allowed to defend yourself.

    I could go on and on, but my point is this: Anyone who thinks fighting is the answer whenever there is a crisis is on the wrong path.
    Different circumstances require different solutions. Deciding that fighting is never the solution will lead to troubles of its own.

    Ever hear the old phrase "Live by the sword, die by the sword"? You think violence is the answer to everything, then sooner or later, you'll regret it.
    Good thing we don't use swords anymore.
    You forget, we have to take GZ word on that. And given recent events, I wouldn't.
    We could always look at the forensic evidence and the witness testimony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    Silcone, you forget, the terms Legal and Moral are not always mutual.
    Self defense should always be legal and moral. If you can't defend yourself without getting into legal trouble, something is wrong with your laws.


    And sometimes self-defense can go to far. This may seem a ridiculous comparison, but ever watch The Powerpuff Girls? Know how Fuzzy Lumpkins goes berserk whenever anyone so much as sets foot on his property, to the point of reacting with violence whenever someone does?
    Yeah, extreme example, but that is perhaps what could happen if such laws were taken to extremes.
    Yes, this is a ridiculous comparison. PPG is a cartoon. Lumpkins is a caricature of rednecks. He's not real. Please try and use real things in your comparisons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silicone View Post
    I'm not really familiar with US laws, so...


    I think the solution lies in a universal way of defending yourself, something non-lethal, like pepper spray(not really sure if it's non-lethal) or a flash bomb
    Pepper spray doesn't work to stop someone and can also affect the user. Flash bombs? Are, well, bombs. They can cause quite a bit of damage if used improperly.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Pepper spray doesn't work to stop someone and can also affect the user.
    You have obviously never been sprayed with it then.

    B
    I like to breed to Pokemon (except IV breeding, i have no interest in it)*. If you have any requests please PM or email me and I will see what I can do to help you. I also have TONS of items.**

    Email: pokemonmaster2385@gmail.com (please include "username" @ serebii forums in the heading)
    *I can breed all Pokemon in X&Y now.*
    **Items are in BW & B2W2 only**

    Pokemon Y friend code: 3797 - 7081 - 3314
    Pokemon X friend code: 4296 - 4159 - 0229


  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Good thing we don't use swords anymore.
    You took that proverb WAY too literally. It was derived from Matthew 26:52, written long before firearms were invented, and the actual passage states:

    "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    In other words, what Matthew is saying is, if you use violence, or other harsh means, against other people, you can expect to have those same means used against you; "You can expect to become a victim of whatever means you use to get what you want."

    And here's another quote from the Bible, seeing as it's being used as an source by so many politicians these days:

    And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    Isaiah 2:4

    The meaning of this passage is, basically, a plea for peace, a plea to throw your weapons away, or even better, turn them into tools that can be used for peaceful purposes, the "He", naturally, being God himself, as he abhors violence in any form.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    - Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The Enterprise
    Posts
    2,838

    Default

    As I have said before, I would not carry a gun. But that does not mean I would not defend myself against someone who was going to harm me. To what extent, I really have no idea, I have a multitool on my keychain, but I don't know if I could use it on someone (I doubt I could do much damage with that thing anyways). Also, (I mostly just skimmed over the post up until this point) I'd think this would be obvious, but who knows, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated. I don't believe in going at someone who just decided to slap you in the face (regardless if you deserved it or not), even though that's technically harming you.
    #AlphaSapphire
    I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
    If you have a question about my religion, or wish to discuss my religion, the Bible, or anything related to this topic, feel free to PM or VM me, take a look at the information in my profile or visit our official website.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    You have obviously never been sprayed with it then.

    B
    Oops. That should be "Does not always work." Some people don't feel it for whatever reason or don't care or it just makes them madder. Or the stuff is old and has degraded.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Spock View Post
    As I have said before, I would not carry a gun. But that does not mean I would not defend myself against someone who was going to harm me. To what extent, I really have no idea, I have a multitool on my keychain, but I don't know if I could use it on someone (I doubt I could do much damage with that thing anyways). Also, (I mostly just skimmed over the post up until this point) I'd think this would be obvious, but who knows, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated. I don't believe in going at someone who just decided to slap you in the face (regardless if you deserved it or not), even though that's technically harming you.
    You hit the right spot with a multi-tool and you can cause some major damage.

    Slapping is technically harming you but you need to understand the meaning behind "mortal danger" to assess the situation and decide if that is what is going on. Unfortunately you only have a second or two at best to make this decision which is where people err.

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Oops. That should be "Does not always work." Some people don't feel it for whatever reason or don't care or it just makes them madder. Or the stuff is old and has degraded.
    Ive been sprayed and it is terrible. I have never heard of it not working on anyone, talk to a cop, they will tell you the same thing.

    B
    Last edited by BJPalmer85; 21st March 2014 at 4:18 PM.
    I like to breed to Pokemon (except IV breeding, i have no interest in it)*. If you have any requests please PM or email me and I will see what I can do to help you. I also have TONS of items.**

    Email: pokemonmaster2385@gmail.com (please include "username" @ serebii forums in the heading)
    *I can breed all Pokemon in X&Y now.*
    **Items are in BW & B2W2 only**

    Pokemon Y friend code: 3797 - 7081 - 3314
    Pokemon X friend code: 4296 - 4159 - 0229


  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Oops. That should be "Does not always work." Some people don't feel it for whatever reason or don't care or it just makes them madder. Or the stuff is old and has degraded.
    "Old and degraded"? An aerosol canister is vacuum sealed until first used, and the police procedure handbook states that if you ever use your pepper spray, you throw it away at the first opportunity and get a new canister.

    Anyone who doesn't do so is asking for trouble.

    By the way, I've seen it make dogs madder. Humans, however? They tend to scream and collapse. I've never seen someone who is pepper sprayed able to fight back.

    Ever see Johnny Knoxville's show, the name of which I can't type here? There was an episode where Knoxville had someone spray him with the stuff. It hurt me just watching it.
    Last edited by Maedar; 21st March 2014 at 4:43 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    - Albert Einstein

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    "Old and degraded"? An aerosol canister is vacuum sealed until first used, and the police procedure handbook states that if you ever use your pepper spray, you throw it away at the first opportunity and get a new canister.

    Anyone who doesn't do so is asking for trouble.

    By the way, I've seen it make dogs madder. Humans, however? They tend to scream and collapse. I've never seen someone who is pepper sprayed able to fight back.

    Ever see Johnny Knoxville's show, the name of which I can't type here? There was an episode where Knoxville had someone spray him with the stuff. It hurt me just watching it.
    I laughed so hard watching that episode...until it happened to me.

    I am surprised that no one said anything about my first comment in this thread. Glad to see that.

    B
    I like to breed to Pokemon (except IV breeding, i have no interest in it)*. If you have any requests please PM or email me and I will see what I can do to help you. I also have TONS of items.**

    Email: pokemonmaster2385@gmail.com (please include "username" @ serebii forums in the heading)
    *I can breed all Pokemon in X&Y now.*
    **Items are in BW & B2W2 only**

    Pokemon Y friend code: 3797 - 7081 - 3314
    Pokemon X friend code: 4296 - 4159 - 0229


  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,245

    Default

    I forgot to mention something about that.

    Knoxville - as stupid as he could be - is a professional stunt man.

    If it hurt him that badly, imagine what it could do to someone who isn't trained.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    - Albert Einstein

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    You hit the right spot with a multi-tool and you can cause some major damage.
    Some self defense courses say aim for a vein and make a big hole. Attackers suddenly have a desire to stop bleeding out rather than continuing to attack.

    Slapping is technically harming you but you need to understand the meaning behind "mortal danger" to assess the situation and decide if that is what is going on. Unfortunately you only have a second or two at best to make this decision which is where people err.
    People err on both sides of the equation. They assume that someone isn't intent on hurting them despite a clear threat.

    Ive been sprayed and it is terrible. I have never heard of it not working on anyone, talk to a cop, they will tell you the same thing.

    B
    I've worked with deputies. It can happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    "Old and degraded"? An aerosol canister is vacuum sealed until first used, and the police procedure handbook states that if you ever use your pepper spray, you throw it away at the first opportunity and get a new canister.
    http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/pa...ray-expiration
    Canisters leak the aerosols out, they get jammed with crap, the nozzles rust and break.



    By the way, I've seen it make dogs madder. Humans, however? They tend to scream and collapse. I've never seen someone who is pepper sprayed able to fight back.
    I have.



    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    I laughed so hard watching that episode...until it happened to me.

    I am surprised that no one said anything about my first comment in this thread. Glad to see that.

    B
    Martial arts can be a help in some situations. It isn't a universal aid though. There is always someone bigger or stronger or better. Or just luckier. I've seen a few fights between martial arts "experts" and a street brawlers end with the expert getting beat down because he expected there to be rules in the fight and the brawler just wanted to win.
    Fighting to incapacitate can lead to lawsuits about you "maiming" the other person.
    As far as weapons go? If the other person has any kind of weapon, then they should be treated as having lethal intent.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    Martial arts can be a help in some situations. It isn't a universal aid though. There is always someone bigger or stronger or better. Or just luckier.
    Very true, but if you are intelligent it can help

    I've seen a few fights between martial arts "experts" and a street brawlers end with the expert getting beat down because he expected there to be rules in the fight and the brawler just wanted to win.
    I love this part. You always hear this. There are no rules and when I teach the arts I always make that clear.

    Fighting to incapacitate can lead to lawsuits about you "maiming" the other person
    If there are witnesses yes. If it is just you and another person in a dark alley, beat them down and then leave.

    As far as weapons go? If the other person has any kind of weapon, then they should be treated as having lethal intent.
    Glad we agree on this part.

    I think an interesting side argument is what you do if you see someone being attacked?

    B
    I like to breed to Pokemon (except IV breeding, i have no interest in it)*. If you have any requests please PM or email me and I will see what I can do to help you. I also have TONS of items.**

    Email: pokemonmaster2385@gmail.com (please include "username" @ serebii forums in the heading)
    *I can breed all Pokemon in X&Y now.*
    **Items are in BW & B2W2 only**

    Pokemon Y friend code: 3797 - 7081 - 3314
    Pokemon X friend code: 4296 - 4159 - 0229


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    Very true, but if you are intelligent it can help
    Being intelligent always helps.



    I love this part. You always hear this. There are no rules and when I teach the arts I always make that clear.
    Some people don't get that instruction.


    If there are witnesses yes. If it is just you and another person in a dark alley, beat them down and then leave.
    Some crooks would be stupid enough to try and file charges against their intended victim. I'd recommend calling the cops after you defend yourself.


    Glad we agree on this part.

    I think an interesting side argument is what you do if you see someone being attacked?
    Depends on what is happening. A fist fight between to evenly matched people? Call the cops. Loudly yell that the cops have been called. Something worse? If I clearly know who the victim is, and immediate aid is needed, then I will try to intervene. Probably by stating that if you don't stop right now I will shoot you.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
    http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/pa...ray-expiration
    Canisters leak the aerosols out, they get jammed with crap, the nozzles rust and break.
    Now compare that to how much you can hurt yourself with a gun that backfires. Or what tends to happen to when you shoot someone who you mistake for an intruder, like what happens in the stories I keep providing, but you brush off as irrelevant.

    Some people don't get that instruction.
    Same with gun users.

    Some crooks would be stupid enough to try and file charges against their intended victim. I'd recommend calling the cops after you defend yourself.
    Also a complete myth. Some try, but those cases... Well, here's one example;

    http://autos.aol.com/article/why-a-c...usauto00000020

    Result?

    http://hernandotoday.com/news/hernan...ain-ar-416706/


    This case wasn't a myth, however:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney
    Last edited by Maedar; 21st March 2014 at 6:12 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    - Albert Einstein

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    Or what tends to happen to when you shoot someone who you mistake for an intruder
    What if you shoot someone that is an intruder? The way I understand it is, you break into my house, i shoot you and you die, that is on you.

    B
    I like to breed to Pokemon (except IV breeding, i have no interest in it)*. If you have any requests please PM or email me and I will see what I can do to help you. I also have TONS of items.**

    Email: pokemonmaster2385@gmail.com (please include "username" @ serebii forums in the heading)
    *I can breed all Pokemon in X&Y now.*
    **Items are in BW & B2W2 only**

    Pokemon Y friend code: 3797 - 7081 - 3314
    Pokemon X friend code: 4296 - 4159 - 0229


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The Enterprise
    Posts
    2,838

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    What if you shoot someone that is an intruder? The way I understand it is, you break into my house, i shoot you and you die, that is on you.

    B
    Or the person you mistakenly think is attempting to breaking in, but is really just trying to get help.
    #AlphaSapphire
    I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
    If you have a question about my religion, or wish to discuss my religion, the Bible, or anything related to this topic, feel free to PM or VM me, take a look at the information in my profile or visit our official website.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maedar View Post
    Now compare that to how much you can hurt yourself with a gun that backfires.
    Cars backfire. Guns don't. In an extreme case, a gun can explode if it hasn't ever been cleaned or if you are using the wrong ammo or if there is something jammed very tightly into the barrel.

    Or what tends to happen to when you shoot someone who you mistake for an intruder, like what happens in the stories I keep providing, but you brush off as irrelevant.
    Such accidental shootings are a rarity and do not detract from the vast number of actual intruders stopped by homeowners.

    Same with gun users.
    Not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that in a self defense situation, there are no rules? Or are you trying to turn this from self defense to gun control? If so, please don't.



    Also a complete myth. Some try, but those cases... Well, here's one example;

    This case wasn't a myth, however:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney
    I say some crooks try to file charges and you claim it's a myth. You then provide proof that what I said happens, does in fact happen..... So it's not a myth then?

    And the Katko case wasn't self defense but someone laying booby traps.
    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    What if you shoot someone that is an intruder? The way I understand it is, you break into my house, i shoot you and you die, that is on you.

    B
    Pretty much this.
    Stand by for political rant that no one else really cares about.

    3DS friend code: 1650 1976 9524

    My FS type is Steel with Magneton, Forretress and Bronzong.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •