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Thread: The Magic Of The Night Sun Can Be An Amazing Thing

  1. #1
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    Default The Magic Of The Night Sun Can Be An Amazing Thing

    Hello my fellow Serebiians! Xenevix here with my favorite RMT of mine so far: A Bulky Trick Room Doubles Team. The purpose of this team is to end double battles quickly within the confines of Trick Room and maintain offensive momentum without the use of constant switching. This requires a lot of coverage and few weaknesses so synergy has to be tight. I feel as if I have explored Trick Room to its finest, not saying that I am the best with it but that I am very comfortable within its twisted dimensions even with some other weather playing around. I would also like to mention this is a team that I will attempt to use in tournaments so I have to keep all of the hold items different.

    Updates are not specifically marked, so I stated what was changed in certain posts. So far the only posts stating major updates are posts #6 and #13.

    Before I begin rambling here you have the team. Thank you all in advance.

        Spoiler:- Team Building Process:


    The Detailed Look:



    Luna (Female) @ Mental Herb
    Nature: Relaxed (-Speed +Defense)
    EVs: +252 HP +160 Defense +96 Special Defense
    Ability: Levitate
    - Trick Room
    - Helping Hand
    - Moonlight
    - Ice Beam

    Cresselia is the main Trick Room user over Jellicent. It has tremendous bulk on both sides of the spectrum and can sponge any hit. Pairing it with Rhyperior is my main strategy because of Cresselia’s Helping Hand. With Cresselia’s Helping Hand, Rhyperior’s physical attack sails past 600. Rhyperior also gets STAB on EQ so that puts the base power at 150. So a 600+ physical attack stat unleashing a 150 base power attack on everything on the field, except Cresselia, is pretty nifty. Not to mention that those flying types that resist get wrecked by a 112 base power Rock Slide. But Rhyperior isn’t the only possible partner. Emboar, Jellicent, Hydreigon, and Snorlax all appreciate a nice attack boost here and there. Personally I think that the best part of this Cresselia is that my team can function without it. Jellicent takes a huge amount of pressure off Cresselia by also having Trick Room.

    Unfortunately, Cresselia really has zero offensive prowess so if Taunt didn’t exist I would put another support move in the last slot but that isn’t the case. I picked Ice Beam as the preferred attack move because it’s strong and hits Dragons and Ground types Rhyperior wouldn’t quite finish on his own. Another downfall is that Cresselia’s only reliable recovery is affected by the weather. If there is no weather Cresselia can live forever but only being able to recover ź of her HP makes Cresselia a little frailer in weathers.



    Rambi (Male) @ Lum Berry
    Nature: Brave (-Speed +Attack)
    EVs: +252 Attack +200 HP +56 Defense
    Ability: Solid Rock
    - Protect
    - Megahorn
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake

    I really want to stress that Rhyperior is the god of Earthquake and Rock Slide. His Earthquake is only rivaled by few: Landorus-T, Groudon, and Deoxys-A. Not even Rampardos’ monster attack stat can equal the sheer destruction wrought by max attack Rhyperior’s Earthquake, and Rampardos is the only other Pokemon that’s Rock Slide rivals Rhyperior’s. Now I’ve already stressed in Cresselia’s description how this set works with Cresselia, but not completely. Another reason Rhyperior is my chosen strong lead is that it has a ton of weaknesses: Grass, Water, Steel, Fighting, Ground, and Ice, six in all. All of these types are very common on any opponent’s team. Why is this good? Because I am almost guaranteed one attack on the opponent’s side is going to be fired at Rhyperior first turn. So I use Protect, I scout, take pressure off Cresselia for that turn so she can set up Trick Room, and Rhyperior is completely safe to wreck next turn. But having a lot of weaknesses obviously isn’t that much fun so I prefer the Solid Rock ability over Lightningrod.

    Now you may ask why I have Lum Berry. I replaced Wide Lens with a Lum Berry to suck up Swagger and get rid of any and all burns. I chose Lum over Persim because burns are awful cutting my attack in half, the occasional freeze and paralysis get erased, and Swagger gives me a free +2 and no consequences. If I suck up a Swagger with Rhyperior and Trick Room lasts two more turns I win. End of story.



    Pringles 3.0 (Male) @ Ghost Gem
    Nature: Quiet (-Speed +Special Attack)
    EVs: +236 HP +108 Special Attack +164 Special Defense
    Ability: Water Absorb
    - Hydro Pump
    - Shadow Ball
    - Recover
    - Trick Room

    Haha! All you people who name your Jellicents “Pringles” have been stumped for my Jellicent is Pringles 3.0! Not only did I skip 2.0 but I am 3.0, which is better in every sense of the number. Anyway this is my second Trick Room user. He also happens to be my surprise BattleSquid. Hydro Pump with this set’s special attack is amazing. It’s almost guaranteed the HP bar will stay green with this guy. He is so bulky! Anyway this guy mainly pairs with Hydreigon and pairs with Lickilicky on occasion. Shadow Ball is a nice STAB that can OHKO any other offensive ghost type, particularly Gengar.

    Now the EVs look a little weird, and they are, but the 16 HP EVs will not be missed for Jellicent really doesn’t need them, the special attack EVs are just perfect for OHKO’ing other offensive ghost sets, and lastly the rest of the EVs were put into special defense to maximize special bulk. I chose Ghost Gem eventually over Lum Berry per Justin's advice and having a nice big Shadow Ball STAB really helps get rid of annoying Cresselia and other ghosts. I don't think Jellicent needs a Water Gem because I believe that the STAB Hydro Pump here is powerful enough.



    Puff (Male) @ Wide Lens
    Nature: Quiet (-Speed +Special Attack)
    EVs: +248 HP +252 Special Attack +8 Special Defense
    Ability: Multiscale
    - Hurricane
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Protect

    The second permanent gen one Pokemon on this team so far. Dragonite boasts one of the largest movepools in all of Pokemon making it one of the biggest threats on any team. Opponents never know what Dragonite has in store, or what it will do next. For my purposes Dragonite fulfills the role of its predecessor, Hydreigon: he pairs up with Jellicent to keep its HP up and to take out Jellicent's main fears. But now that Jellicent has the Ghost Gem, offensive ghosts are no longer an issue. Therefore, Dark Pulse is no longer needed. Dragonite also pairs well with Rhyperior and Emboar, resisting Earthquake even with Mold Breaker in play; something Hydreigon couldn't do. Now since Rhyperior didn't really need the Wide Lens I gave it to Dragonite. I know it doesn't increase it's accuracy that much but for Hurricane without rain, any boost is appreciated.

    Now this Dragonite is designed like the others in that it is made to take things out fast and hard while boasting a significant amount of bulk. But this Pokemon in particular is designed as well to take out major particular threats: Scizor, Metagross, Hitmontop, Conkeldurr, and almost any rain team. All four are susceptible to Fire Blast or Hurricane; another reason I wanted the Wide Lens here. Protect on Dragonite is kind of a scouting filler. I was considering Dragon Pulse but he rarely uses it and Protect is good to ward off Swagger from itself. I actually considered Dragon Claw and Aqua Jet for the last slot since its physical attack stat is still useful. I also considered Thunder Wave, Safeguard, and Focus Blast for more support or power respectively but for now I've been using Protect.



    Attila The Ham (Male) @ Sitrus Berry
    Nature: Brave (-Speed +Attack)
    EVs: +252 Attack +252 HP +4 Special Defense
    Ability: Blaze
    - Flare Blitz
    - Earthquake
    - Wild Charge
    - Head Smash

    Ah the war pig. You really have no respect for your body, always doing so much damage to yourself. The fire starter that’s only immediate weakness is that you are insanely slow… You fit so well into this team. Emboar is like a jack-of-all-trades here, I even considered giving him Scald to help Jellicent but the loss of coverage could be too much. Emboar has such great coverage that only a few dragons and ghosts can survive its onslaught of massive attacks. With Cresselia, Emboar can literally take out any Pokemon, with the exception of Multiscale Dragonite, sashers, and sturdymons. I have replaced Reckless with Blaze because it isn't released yet but I hope it will be soon.

    Now for Emboar's item I chose the Sitrus Berry. It allows for quick recovery, which is quite a bit for Emboar's great HP, and helps sponge some recoil damage. I didn't choose Persim Berry because if I see a Swagger coming and I still have Rhyperior I will switch. Also, Emboar takes out the common Swaggerers XD before they can get Emboar with it. An interesting perk about Emboar: nobody really uses him. I'm surprised because he fits so well within Trick Room; I don't know why he isn't more often used. He isn't that ugly.



    Slobberer (Female) @ Normal Gem
    Nature: Sassy (-Speed +Special Defense)
    EVs: +252 HP +56 Attack +200 Special Defense
    Ability: Cloud Nine
    - Swords Dance
    - Explosion
    - Power Whip
    - Rock Slide

    The longest tongue in all of Pokemon has made its way onto my team due to it's ability: Cloud Nine. Not only does it replace Snorlax near perfectly, but it pauses weather effects while it is on the field. Most predominately, Tornadus-T's Hurricanes, Thundrus-T's Thunders, rain-boosted water attacks (namely Hydro Pump), and any Blizzards are all lowered back to the piddly 70-75% accuracy. Which is also why this guy has special defense EVs and not defense EVs. If his main reason is to counter special attacks that are boosted by weather, he needs some bulk and special defense. Now it seems Lickilicky wouldn't be very good on a bulky offensive team; well he isn't without Swords Dance. Swords Dance is necessary for proper attack power on this guy, without it Power Whip fails to OHKO Politoed and Tyranitar and Rock Slide fails to OHKO Ninetales and Abomasnow. But after one Swords Dance this guy has all the weather inducers covered.

    Tornadus-T is the most predominant weather-abuser right now so I'll use him as an example. Tornadus-T just destroyed my Emboar with a Life Orb Hurricane, so I send in my Lickilicky. Rain is put on pause while Lickylicky is out so Hurricane goes back to 70% accuracy. If Cresselia is out I would use Helping Hand and go for Rock Slide, or use Ice Beam and Rock Slide at the same time in hopes of getting rid of Tornadus-T. Now since most Tornadus-T are offensive with Life Orb it is likely that a regular Rock Slide will do anywhere from 45%-55%, with max damage hacks at 65%-75% and minimum at 25%-35%. Obviously not an OHKO, so I would have to take two Hurricanes if Tornadus hasn't been hurting itself sufficiently with Life Orb. This is why Lickilicky is specially bulky, he can survive two Hurricanes easily, but barely; any other attack or residual damage will take him out. This is also why Lickilicky has Explosion: Normal Gem boosted Explosion is an easy OHKO on standard Life Orb Tornadus-T even without Swords Dance.

    In Conclusion:



    I am proud of this team quite a bit. It just needs a few final tweaks, nothing major. I am also happy that I have created a team that can handle weathers quite well without a specified counter. The synergy on this team may not look the greatest but it's the trainer that makes it great. I am also glad that my team does not rely on my primary core, that it can mix and match almost everyone to create still a huge offensive pressure that is bulky enough to stay alive for a while.

    I can say I haven’t come across any clear-cut threats but this team is not without its weaknesses. Gastrodon, Swampert, and Quagsire can stall for a couple of turns but they won’t last long. The only issue is when one of these gets up too many Curses because my main attackers have no grass moves. Hitmontop with Fighting Gem and Close Combat can be an issue without Dragonite.

    Choiced Pokemon can also be a threat, although Scarfs are almost never an issue Bands and Specs can be. The only thing is they are so rarely used in doubles there is really no fear of them. A primary example is banded Tyranitar: not only does it set up an annoying weather but it can take out a lot of my team, granted it has the right moveset. But I realized this: what teams do choice specs and choice banded Pokemon not threaten, especially banded Tyranitar?

        Spoiler:- Former Members:


    I really appreciate you guys taking your time to read this, I know it’s lengthy but I thought you’d like detailed explanations. Any and all constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Xenevix; 4th September 2012 at 12:07 PM.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  2. #2
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    This team have a lot of missed stuff you could change. Actually Helping Hand doesnt helps in 1x1 battles, so you could switch for Magic Coat (To Stop obvious taunt or toxic), Or Lunar Dance to help Cresselia when is near to die, heal other pokémon. Ice beam could be switched for Psychic, cause its a better stab (Note that Ice beam on Ubers Cresselia is very good) On rhyperior, Protect is totally useless, you Could Switch it for Sword Dance to boost his attack to sky-high levels. Rock Slide is Ok, but you should invest in more power, and rock slide secondary effect is uselss without Trick Room, since it is slow. You should Change Wide lems for Rock Gem, to OHKO Gliscor after a Sword Dance. Jellicent dont fit on this team, since Cresselia walls like it, but better. If you want other Pokémon to Set trick room, you could use Bronzong, to hit Hard With Gyro Ball, and setup Stealth Rocks, Porygon-2 for a versatile and bulky poké, or even Chandelure for a Offensive special and surprise fact option. On Hydreigon i would Recomend Draco Meteor over dragon pulse, to hit harder and OHKO, Focus Blast over surf for more coverage and do more damage to heatran. Berries in metagame are not much effective, so you could put Choice Band over Passho Berry, and Stone Edge over Head Smash, since it is Suicice. Its Better Superpower (or 100 base power Hammer arm) for 180 power move after STAB, which has more coverage than Earthquake in OU. On Snorlax, Seed Bomb is completely useless, and you should switch for earthquake, and Return / Frustration Over Body Slam and Explosion. Immunity is better than thick fat, since Snorlax is a tank, and poison would ruin it. Also Leftovers over Normal Gem.

    Now About the EVs, i Would recomend: Cresselia with 248 HP, 176 Defense (for nature +1 point boosting) and 84 Special Defense. Hydreigon Timid 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, since hydreigon is fast, and you need to hit key pokémons with good coverage off the trick room.

    You were very unprepared for experienced trainers, create your teams with more attention.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotom-F View Post
    This team have a lot of missed stuff you could change. Actually Helping Hand doesnt helps in 1x1 battles, so you could switch for Magic Coat (To Stop obvious taunt or toxic), Or Lunar Dance to help Cresselia when is near to die, heal other pokémon. Ice beam could be switched for Psychic, cause its a better stab (Note that Ice beam on Ubers Cresselia is very good) On rhyperior, Protect is totally useless, you Could Switch it for Sword Dance to boost his attack to sky-high levels. Rock Slide is Ok, but you should invest in more power, and rock slide secondary effect is uselss without Trick Room, since it is slow. You should Change Wide lems for Rock Gem, to OHKO Gliscor after a Sword Dance. Jellicent dont fit on this team, since Cresselia walls like it, but better. If you want other Pokémon to Set trick room, you could use Bronzong, to hit Hard With Gyro Ball, and setup Stealth Rocks, Porygon-2 for a versatile and bulky poké, or even Chandelure for a Offensive special and surprise fact option. On Hydreigon i would Recomend Draco Meteor over dragon pulse, to hit harder and OHKO, Focus Blast over surf for more coverage and do more damage to heatran. Berries in metagame are not much effective, so you could put Choice Band over Passho Berry, and Stone Edge over Head Smash, since it is Suicice. Its Better Superpower (or 100 base power Hammer arm) for 180 power move after STAB, which has more coverage than Earthquake in OU. On Snorlax, Seed Bomb is completely useless, and you should switch for earthquake, and Return / Frustration Over Body Slam and Explosion. Immunity is better than thick fat, since Snorlax is a tank, and poison would ruin it. Also Leftovers over Normal Gem.

    Now About the EVs, i Would recomend: Cresselia with 248 HP, 176 Defense (for nature +1 point boosting) and 84 Special Defense. Hydreigon Timid 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, since hydreigon is fast, and you need to hit key pokémons with good coverage off the trick room.

    You were very unprepared for experienced trainers, create your teams with more attention.

    Well excuse me, I am quite experienced, and I do know what I am talking about. If you actually read the top description you would notice that this is a Trick Room DOUBLES team. Obviously you haven't played much tournament style double battling as it is quite different from single battling. The most common threats in singles are either very different or non-existent.

    Before you go insulting someone else's intelligence you should make sure you know what you yourself are talking about. Think before you speak.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotom-F View Post
    This team have a lot of missed stuff you could change. Actually Helping Hand doesnt helps in 1x1 battles, so you could switch for Magic Coat (To Stop obvious taunt or toxic), Or Lunar Dance to help Cresselia when is near to die, heal other pokémon. Ice beam could be switched for Psychic, cause its a better stab (Note that Ice beam on Ubers Cresselia is very good) On rhyperior, Protect is totally useless, you Could Switch it for Sword Dance to boost his attack to sky-high levels. Rock Slide is Ok, but you should invest in more power, and rock slide secondary effect is uselss without Trick Room, since it is slow. You should Change Wide lems for Rock Gem, to OHKO Gliscor after a Sword Dance. Jellicent dont fit on this team, since Cresselia walls like it, but better. If you want other Pokémon to Set trick room, you could use Bronzong, to hit Hard With Gyro Ball, and setup Stealth Rocks, Porygon-2 for a versatile and bulky poké, or even Chandelure for a Offensive special and surprise fact option. On Hydreigon i would Recomend Draco Meteor over dragon pulse, to hit harder and OHKO, Focus Blast over surf for more coverage and do more damage to heatran. Berries in metagame are not much effective, so you could put Choice Band over Passho Berry, and Stone Edge over Head Smash, since it is Suicice. Its Better Superpower (or 100 base power Hammer arm) for 180 power move after STAB, which has more coverage than Earthquake in OU. On Snorlax, Seed Bomb is completely useless, and you should switch for earthquake, and Return / Frustration Over Body Slam and Explosion. Immunity is better than thick fat, since Snorlax is a tank, and poison would ruin it. Also Leftovers over Normal Gem.

    Now About the EVs, i Would recomend: Cresselia with 248 HP, 176 Defense (for nature +1 point boosting) and 84 Special Defense. Hydreigon Timid 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, since hydreigon is fast, and you need to hit key pokémons with good coverage off the trick room.

    You were very unprepared for experienced trainers, create your teams with more attention.
    Honestly dude read atleast the top part first your making sense in a singles point of view but doubles and triples are completely different
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post
    Well excuse me, I am quite experienced, and I do know what I am talking about. If you actually read the top description you would notice that this is a Trick Room DOUBLES team. Obviously you haven't played much tournament style double battling as it is quite different from single battling. The most common threats in singles are either very different or non-existent.

    Before you go insulting someone else's intelligence you should make sure you know what you yourself are talking about. Think before you speak.



    Anyways overall you logic is solid and looks very very threatening a few tweaks try a gallade over cresselia as it has many of the same support moves
    Gallade @ Focus Sash
    Nature Brave
    Ability Justified
    Evs 252 HP 252 Atk 4 Def
    Close Combat
    Trick Room
    Heal Pulse
    Helping Hand
    you may want to consider this as gallade gets heal pulse which will heal its team mate however cressellia is an amazing trick roomer to if you decide to keep cresselia i suggest you put a mental herb on it to prevent it from being taunted hence no trick room. on jellicent go with hydro pump as it will be better as you wont have to keep it at full health to dish out huge amounts of damage. On lax either move is situational however i would go with a lickylicky as it can negate wether effects and has explosion hope this helped
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  5. #5
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    Thanks it does. I like Gallade and I would use it but the fact is it just doesn't quite match up to Cresselia. Heal Pulse is great but getting hit by Rhyperior's Earthquake is not and it's a pretty big asset to my team. I do like the mental Herb idea though, it frees up leftovers for someone else. And Lickilicky, I have never really used one but it could be fun. I'm not quite sure how I would make it an equal to Snorlax since its stats are a substantial amount less. But I will play around with it. Thanks again.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  6. #6
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    Okay so updates are as follows:

    Cresselia: lost leftovers and gained mental herb for countering the obvious Taunt.

    Rhyperior: Unchanged

    Jellicent: lost Water Spout and gained Hydro Pump for more reliability at low health.

    Hydreigon: no change.

    Emboar: lost passho berry and gained life orb, changed Wild Charge to Grass Knot to counter my main water threats.

    Snorlax: removed and replaced with a weather countering Lickilicky.

    Gallade was considered for replacing Cresselia but testing proved it was not bulky enough and the inability to give Rhyperior's EQ a Helping Hand was not good. I was surprised to what could survive a non-boosted EQ to say the least.
    Last edited by Xenevix; 26th August 2012 at 8:19 PM.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  7. #7

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    Looks like a solid team. I had a facepalm moment when I read Rotom-F's comment. Don't know why, but I find oblivious people funny. Pringles might want to run Surf though you would need to be careful with two water weaknesses on your team. This can be solved since you are running Protect on Rhyperior. The turns can go like this

    Rhyperior: Protect, Jelli: Surf
    Rhyperior: EQ, Jelli: Recover/TR if necessary

    Ground and water might not have the best synergy together, but it's better than just a single type. An interesting option on Jelli could be Blizzard. Ice is amazing offensively, hitting grass, flying, and many levitating dragons hard which is good synergy with EQ while Rhyperior knocks out those steel and fire types with his ground attack.

    I like how you're using Licky and Jelli on the same team. All of those annoying moments where your opponent protects as you Explode or they switch to a ghost type. You're using that to your advantage you sick man




    252 +6 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Victini (+Atk)Critical V-create vs 0 HP/0 -6 Def Dry Skin Paras (-Def) : 103470436.36% - 121729963.64% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    You Don't Say? I had no idea that a Choice Band Adamant Victini with maximum attack EVs and IVs that was baton passed +6 in attack and Skill Swapped Pure Power OHKO's Hasty Dry Skin Lvl 1 Paras with no defense EVs or IVs and -6 in defense under sun with a critical hit V-Create.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post
    Well excuse me, I am quite experienced, and I do know what I am talking about. If you actually read the top description you would notice that this is a Trick Room DOUBLES team. Obviously you haven't played much tournament style double battling as it is quite different from single battling. The most common threats in singles are either very different or non-existent.

    Before you go insulting someone else's intelligence you should make sure you know what you yourself are talking about. Think before you speak.

    Wow, sorry, i dint read, thats true, i dont want to flame or something, but you say that like if you were the most wise guys in the world. Anyways, even for 2x2, i dont think some stuff would work, dont be so rude, like you never did something wrong in entire life.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffdavid102 View Post
    Looks like a solid team. Pringles might want to run Surf though you would need to be careful with two water weaknesses on your team. This can be solved since you are running Protect on Rhyperior. The turns can go like this:

    Rhyperior: Protect, Jelli: Surf
    Rhyperior: EQ, Jelli: Recover/TR if necessary

    Ground and water might not have the best synergy together, but it's better than just a single type. An interesting option on Jelli could be Blizzard. Ice is amazing offensively, hitting grass, flying, and many levitating dragons hard which is good synergy with EQ while Rhyperior knocks out those steel and fire types with his ground attack.

    I like how you're using Licky and Jelli on the same team. All of those annoying moments where your opponent protects as you Explode or they switch to a ghost type. You're using that to your advantage you sick man
    I appreciate the advice but I'm confused as to how the second turn would go (I bolded and underline it above). Using EQ on my own Jellicent with a max attack Rhyperior would not fare so well for me; can I have some clarification there? The first turn is actually something I do quite often I just didn't say so. And about your comment with the Explosion and Jellicent/Protect: you wouldn't believe the amount of people that ragequit because of that combo, especially after a Swords Dance.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotom-F View Post
    Wow, sorry, i dint read, thats true, i dont want to flame or something, but you say that like if you were the most wise guys in the world. Anyways, even for 2x2, i dont think some stuff would work, dont be so rude, like you never did something wrong in entire life.
    Hi. Not to be rude or anything, and I say this not to diss you or anything, but you should probably start reading before posting. I've noticed that you don't really do that before posting, which is the fastest way to get told off. And also, probably don't try to defend yourself when you make a mistake. Just apologize and move on. That's also not mentioning the fact that you were rude first, insulting Xenevix's intelligence and putting him down.*
    Another thing, if you are not experienced in a certain aspect of battling, it's best not to to post. There's actually a rule against it. So you might want to be careful what you say. But if you hold firm to your feeling that this stuff doesn't work, please elaborate. I say these things in sincere fear that someone will report you and you'll get a warning or something.

    I for one, being well-versed in both Doubles and Trick Room teams, think this is a very solid team. Good thing I took my time with rating; it appears you've already made changes haha. Btw, the nicknames are pretty humorous!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post

    The Detailed Look:



    Luna (Female) @ Mental Herb
    Nature: Relaxed (-Speed +Defense)
    EVs: +252 HP +160 Defense +96 Special Defense
    Ability: Levitate
    - Trick Room
    - Helping Hand
    - Moonlight
    - Ice Beam
    Pretty solid Cress. For what you want it to do, it's pretty set in its ways. Cress really suffers from the 4-move-slot limit, since Cress needs all the moves you have for her, but also needs other ones, like Psyshock to deal with Hitmontop, or HP Fire to work on Scizor or Metagross. But again, solid set for Cress. I really wish there were a move that you could take out for something more offensive, but I'm just going to go with it. On the bright side, with Rhyperior, Cress works really well since she takes no damage from Rhyperior, and can help amp up that Earthquake.*

    How are the EVs working out for you? Cress has so many different EV spreads its crazy! XD*

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post

    Rambi (Male) @ Wide Lens
    Nature: Brave (-Speed +Attack)
    EVs: +252 Attack +200 HP +56 Defense
    Ability: Solid Rock
    - Protect
    - Megahorn
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    We run very similar Rhyperior! I really love Rhyperior. It's so good in TR.

    Why not invest those Def EVs into Sp.Def? Make it survive a hit or two on its Special Side? Is there a particular reason for it? It's bulky enough to take some pretty hefty hits on its Physical Side, although I'm not sure about Gemmed, but even with that, does the EV set it has right now remedy that?

    I love this combo you have going on here; Rhyperior can pair off with Cresselia to dish out double damage, while still being an offensive threat to both Pokemon with Helping Hand, or to deal out even more damage with Hydreigon. Rhyperior is obviously the highlight of this team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post

    Pringles 3.0 (Male) @ Lum Berry
    Nature: Quiet (-Speed +Special Attack)
    EVs: +236 HP +108 Special Attack +164 Special Defense
    Ability: Water Absorb
    - Hydro Pump
    - Shadow Ball
    - Recover
    - Trick Room
    People use Toxic on you in Doubles? 8o *No one does that!

    I honestly think a Sitrus or Leftovers would be a better fit on Jellicent, or something else to boost its power. Maybe a Water, Ice, or Ghost Gem? I noticed that a lot of Pokemon weak to Shadow Ball try to capitalize on their bulk to prevent being OHKO'd by, specifically, Jellicent's Shadow Ball. Coming off base 85(?) Sp.Attk, that's not super threatening, but Ghost Gemmed, that is. Chandelure doesn't stand a chance.*

    Also, Jellicent is a known Special Tank, even without the EVs, but its Physical Side is definitely its weak point. A while time Crunch or Sucker Punch could leave you without any Pringles. Why not put that bulk into Defense, to help capitalize even more on Jellicent's amazing bulk?

    Otherwise, Jellicent's boss. (I used Jellicent on my own TR team too. XD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post

    Puff (Male) @ Expert Belt
    Nature: Quiet (-Speed +Special Attack)
    EVs: +252 HP +252 Special Attack +4 Special Defense
    Ability: Levitate
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    This surprised me. You're using Hydreigon on a Trick Room team. On one end, I find that amazingly interesting. On the other hand, that seems very difficult, as even with a Quiet Nature, in Trick Room, Pokemon like Mamoswine, Togekiss, Hitmontop, Scizor, etc, all outspeed it. That's not good, as Mamoswine could hit with Icicle Crash, Togekiss Aura Sphere, Hitmontop Close Combat, and Scizor Bug Bite. That's a crippled Hydreigon.

    Might I suggest Dragonite? Multiscale is beautiful, it's slow, and it can use pretty much the exact same movepool minus Dark Pulse, but you get Hurricane (which helps Jellicent take out Hitmontop and Abomasnow). Dragonite's bulky, powerful, and again, Multiscale really cushions those hits. Pokemon will have to waste one turn in order to put Dragonite into killing range. Of course, you are trading Speed and bulk for some power, but Expert Belt would help remedy that as well.

    Hydreigon's still good though, like I said, I'm just worried about its functionality in Trick Room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post

    Attila The Ham (Male) @ Life Orb
    Nature: Brave (-Speed +Attack)
    EVs: +160 Attack + 92 Special Attack +252 HP +4 Special Defense
    Ability: Reckless
    - Flare Blitz
    - Hammer Arm
    - Grass Knot
    - Head Smash
    YOU'RE USING EMBOAR. YOU ARE SO COOL I LOVE EMBOAR!! My feels.

    Anyways, one thing... Reckless isn't out yet. So there's no way you could use it in VGCs, which, as we discussed, is your goal for this team. Blaze will have to do until there's a legitimate way to get Reckless on Tepig.

    Other than that, that's very interesting use of Emboar. There's nothing I can suggest that would be better for Emboar. You could always opt for Sitrus Berry over Life Orb, for an extra turn or something with the recoil, but Life Orb works too. Also, while your reasoning behind Grass Knot is solid, I really think Wild Charge is your best call. Gastrodon takes minimal damage from Grass Knot, no one really uses Swampert, and other Water types will take more damage from a physical attacks. You really only solidify against Jellicent and (to an extent) T-Tar if Sand isn't accounted for.

    I'm so happy to see it on someone's team! You make me feel bad for not using it on my own team, despite it being my 2nd favorite Pokemon. XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post

    Slobberer (Female) @ Leftovers
    Nature: Sassy (-Speed +Special Defense)
    EVs: +252 HP +56 Attack +200 Special Defense
    Ability: Cloud Nine
    - * * *Swords Dance
    - * * *Explosion
    - * * *Power Whip
    - * * *Rock Slide

    I love Lickilicky too! (I love almost your entire team. Cress is so tired though, but everything else just. )

    Anyways, my main fear is that Lickilicky will have a hard time setting Swords Dance up. Not to mention that's one turn of your Trick Room wasted. There's a big chance that after Licky gets set up and attacks, that'll be your last turn of Trick Room, which will make it difficult for Lickilicky to stay an offensive presence. Maybe Protect over it? Also, Chople Berry could help it survive some important hits. Or, to further it's offensive prowess, a Normal Gem could be really cool. Imagine; +2, STAB, x2. That HURTS.


    All in all, pretty solid team. Besides the few things I noted, your team looks like it would function pretty decently. A few things though; how do you deal with Swagger? No doubt someone will try to Swagger our Cresselia, which could really bite. Or maybe risk it on Rhyperior, who, if he takes confusion damage, will not likely see two turns before fainting. Also, be careful on who takes on those Gemmed Close Combats that Hitmontop is known to dish out. Besides your TR starters, no one on your team would appreciate one of those.*

    But other than that, very solid. I'm very impressed. As you noted, no specific core as everyone somewhat works with another member constantly, deals with weather fairly nicely, and even your type matchup. I guess the biggest type you're lacking is a Steel type to help cushion problems with Dragon types, although you have Pokemon that can help with that, and nothing I could suggest would be justifiable enough to replace one of your current team members. I guess that the team is as good as it can get with Theorymon-ing. Are there any other problems you are having with testing?

    Feel like you need a little more Pokemon in your life? Tune into our show!
    EPISODE 55 - SLOWPOKE HOLIDAY
    Looking for something Pokemon-related to listen to while playing through Pokemon XY? This episode is for you!!
    Released: 12/11/14


    Guess who claimed Luxray?!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstinftw! View Post
    I for one, being well-versed in both Doubles and Trick Room teams, think this is a very solid team. Good thing I took my time with rating; it appears you've already made changes haha. Btw, the nicknames are pretty humorous!

    Pretty solid Cress. For what you want it to do, it's pretty set in its ways. Cress really suffers from the 4-move-slot limit, since Cress needs all the moves you have for her, but also needs other ones, like Psyshock to deal with Hitmontop, or HP Fire to work on Scizor or Metagross. But again, solid set for Cress. I really wish there were a move that you could take out for something more offensive, but I'm just going to go with it. On the bright side, with Rhyperior, Cress works really well since she takes no damage from Rhyperior, and can help amp up that Earthquake.*

    How are the EVs working out for you? Cress has so many different EV spreads its crazy! XD*

    I have found that this EV set is the best within my testing for my purposes. Nothing really touches it on either side and it takes a gem +one turn or three turns to take it out with any attacking moves. Thanks for the compliments.
    We run very similar Rhyperior! I really love Rhyperior. It's so good in TR.

    Why not invest those Def EVs into Sp.Def? Make it survive a hit or two on its Special Side? Is there a particular reason for it? It's bulky enough to take some pretty hefty hits on its Physical Side, although I'm not sure about Gemmed, but even with that, does the EV set it has right now remedy that?

    I love this combo you have going on here; Rhyperior can pair off with Cresselia to dish out double damage, while still being an offensive threat to both Pokemon with Helping Hand, or to deal out even more damage with Hydreigon. Rhyperior is obviously the highlight of this team.

    The defense EVs would have been EVs put into HP, but I soon realized that 200 EVs really maxes his bulk. I did not put the EVs into special defense because the two 4x weaknesses (grass and water) are both mainly special and he won't survive those without max special defense even with Solid Rock. I do agree he's physically bulky so I will throw those EVs into special defense and see what happens.

    People use Toxic on you in Doubles? 8o *No one does that!

    I honestly think a Sitrus or Leftovers would be a better fit on Jellicent, or something else to boost its power. Maybe a Water, Ice, or Ghost Gem? I noticed that a lot of Pokemon weak to Shadow Ball try to capitalize on their bulk to prevent being OHKO'd by, specifically, Jellicent's Shadow Ball. Coming off base 85(?) Sp.Attk, that's not super threatening, but Ghost Gemmed, that is. Chandelure doesn't stand a chance.*

    Also, Jellicent is a known Special Tank, even without the EVs, but its Physical Side is definitely its weak point. A while time Crunch or Sucker Punch could leave you without any Pringles. Why not put that bulk into Defense, to help capitalize even more on Jellicent's amazing bulk?

    Otherwise, Jellicent's boss. (I used Jellicent on my own TR team too. XD)

    You would be surprised I think to know how many people have Toxic'd me. I was quite surprised as well. XD As for the special defense EVs becoming defense EVs. I actually just thought of that like two hours ago myself. And the item is up for change. I was thinking ghost gem in particular as Hydro Pump gets a ton of damage anyways. Sitrus Berry would be the second choice and I will decide which after some more testing.

    This surprised me. You're using Hydreigon on a Trick Room team. On one end, I find that amazingly interesting. On the other hand, that seems very difficult, as even with a Quiet Nature, in Trick Room, Pokemon like Mamoswine, Togekiss, Hitmontop, Scizor, etc, all outspeed it. That's not good, as Mamoswine could hit with Icicle Crash, Togekiss Aura Sphere, Hitmontop Close Combat, and Scizor Bug Bite. That's a crippled Hydreigon.

    Might I suggest Dragonite? Multiscale is beautiful, it's slow, and it can use pretty much the exact same movepool minus Dark Pulse, but you get Hurricane (which helps Jellicent take out Hitmontop and Abomasnow). Dragonite's bulky, powerful, and again, Multiscale really cushions those hits. Pokemon will have to waste one turn in order to put Dragonite into killing range. Of course, you are trading Speed and bulk for some power, but Expert Belt would help remedy that as well.

    Hydreigon's still good though, like I said, I'm just worried about its functionality in Trick Room.

    I actually used to use a Dragonite, but I found that its special attack was lacking. I COMPLETELY agree on everything you've said here I just can't seem to make Dragonite strong enough. I'd have to gem it I guess but I would love to have Lum Berry to wave off status. (Swagger especially.)

    YOU'RE USING EMBOAR. YOU ARE SO COOL I LOVE EMBOAR!! My feels.

    Anyways, one thing... Reckless isn't out yet. So there's no way you could use it in VGCs, which, as we discussed, is your goal for this team. Blaze will have to do until there's a legitimate way to get Reckless on Tepig.

    Other than that, that's very interesting use of Emboar. There's nothing I can suggest that would be better for Emboar. You could always opt for Sitrus Berry over Life Orb, for an extra turn or something with the recoil, but Life Orb works too. Also, while your reasoning behind Grass Knot is solid, I really think Wild Charge is your best call. Gastrodon takes minimal damage from Grass Knot, no one really uses Swampert, and other Water types will take more damage from a physical attacks. You really only solidify against Jellicent and (to an extent) T-Tar if Sand isn't accounted for.

    I'm so happy to see it on someone's team! You make me feel bad for not using it on my own team, despite it being my 2nd favorite Pokemon. XP

    Funny you mention Grass Knot. I updated before I tested it and as you said Grass Knot doesn't do sufficient damage to Gastrodon. Furthermore I'm thinking of replacing it with Wild Charge as suggested and again re-replacing Hammer Arm for EQ. Life Orb is nice but the recoil is insane so Sitrus Berry is the top choice. Something I was thinking of here though was actually Golurk. He resists all fighting moves and gets some nice power with Cresselia. But I like Emboar more.


    I love Lickilicky too! (I love almost your entire team. Cress is so tired though, but everything else just. )

    Anyways, my main fear is that Lickilicky will have a hard time setting Swords Dance up. Not to mention that's one turn of your Trick Room wasted. There's a big chance that after Licky gets set up and attacks, that'll be your last turn of Trick Room, which will make it difficult for Lickilicky to stay an offensive presence. Maybe Protect over it? Also, Chople Berry could help it survive some important hits. Or, to further it's offensive prowess, a Normal Gem could be really cool. Imagine; +2, STAB, x2. That HURTS.

    Actually I've seen that whenever I use Lickilicky it is often starting the match with Jellicent. So TR and Swords Dance first turn easy. But I see what you mean and mid-battle it is semi-difficult to get the +2 but I only need one. Chople berry really hasn't helped as the turn Lickilicky sets up he often gets hit just hard enough that any gemmed fighting move or CC takes him out. Normal Gem is fun though, and again would free leftovers for someone else.


    All in all, pretty solid team. Besides the few things I noted, your team looks like it would function pretty decently. A few things though; how do you deal with Swagger? No doubt someone will try to Swagger our Cresselia, which could really bite. Or maybe risk it on Rhyperior, who, if he takes confusion damage, will not likely see two turns before fainting. Also, be careful on who takes on those Gemmed Close Combats that Hitmontop is known to dish out. Besides your TR starters, no one on your team would appreciate one of those.*

    But other than that, very solid. I'm very impressed. As you noted, no specific core as everyone somewhat works with another member constantly, deals with weather fairly nicely, and even your type matchup. I guess the biggest type you're lacking is a Steel type to help cushion problems with Dragon types, although you have Pokemon that can help with that, and nothing I could suggest would be justifiable enough to replace one of your current team members. I guess that the team is as good as it can get with Theorymon-ing. Are there any other problems you are having with testing?
    I have commented up in your stuff in bold. Thanks for the in-depth rate I really appreciate it. You really hit all my issues spot on which was great and left some really nice advice. As for my issues during testing (minus what I've mentioned before): Hitmontop is a big issue as his intimidate is really unappreciated by Rhyperior and Emboar who often start matches. His CC is also an issue so I was thinking Golurk over Lickilicky but that would make me crazy weak to water which is really bad. Over Emboar would be the best move but then I lose necessary fire coverage. Swagger is also an issue. I was considering Safeguard on my team somewhere but definitely on Cresselia and in order to have it I would have to replace someone. Dragonite gets it but as I mentioned above I'd have to really test him out.

    Thanks again for the great rate I really appreciate all the good stuff you said.



    While posting I will mention that I will have new updates soon for those who want to know. Expect some big changes as I test a lot of new options.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenevix View Post
    I have commented up in your stuff in bold. Thanks for the in-depth rate I really appreciate it. You really hit all my issues spot on which was great and left some really nice advice. As for my issues during testing (minus what I've mentioned before): Hitmontop is a big issue as his intimidate is really unappreciated by Rhyperior and Emboar who often start matches. His CC is also an issue so I was thinking Golurk over Lickilicky but that would make me crazy weak to water which is really bad. Over Emboar would be the best move but then I lose necessary fire coverage. Swagger is also an issue. I was considering Safeguard on my team somewhere but definitely on Cresselia and in order to have it I would have to replace someone. Dragonite gets it but as I mentioned above I'd have to really test him out.

    Thanks again for the great rate I really appreciate all the good stuff you said.



    While posting I will mention that I will have new updates soon for those who want to know. Expect some big changes as I test a lot of new options.
    Hm... Well, for Dragonite, maybe try Choice Specs? I understand that Choice items aren't the best items for a Pokemon to hold, but it does boost D-Nite's Sp.Attk stat to much higher than Hydreigon's (125 vs. 150 with Specs boost). You don't even need Draco Meteor anymore; Dragon Pulse would be so strong.

    As for your Golurk idea, I'm pretty on the fence about it too (most cos I don't want to see Emboar go). However, since that is a possibility, let's go pro and con with it, vs. the Emboar and Lickilicky.

    Vs. Emboar, Golurk does offer immunity to Hitmontop, one of the best/most annoying Pokemon in the metagame. This gives you some staying power. Golurk also has access to Hammer Arm, serving as your Fighting type attack. Earthquake also gets STAB, and you can probably 3HKO Cress with Shadow Punch. Similar bulk. Also, Fire is present on your Hydreigon, which is preferred to a Physical Fire attacks since most Pokemon weak to Fire are physically defensive anyways, and you have a better shot at taking them out on their special side. However, both Pokemon still get the Intimidate drop. Golurk's STABs are pretty much useless since Shadow Punch really doesn't do much, even with the boost, and Rhyperior's Earthquake is superior everytime. Emboar gets STAB on his Fire and Fighting moves, and isn't weak to Tyranitar not carrying EQ (which is pretty much every Tyranitar), while still being capable of hitting T-Tar hard with a STAB Hammer Arm. That is something Golurk doesn't boast (the non-weakness and the STAB). Emboar is still susceptible to Hitmontop CC though. Golurk is also weak to most Cress, since they mostly carry Ice Beam anyways.

    All in all, I would test it, sure, but I'm personally more onboard with sticking with Emboar. But let the tests help you decide this particular match-up. Emboar just seems to have more going for him than Golurk, since Golurk is so similar to Emboar in terms of what they can do, just Emboar gets better STABs and better moves.

    Vs. Lickilicky, Golurk doesn't get hit by Fighting. That is nice. Both do get the Attack drop though, and Lickilicky at least can raise its Attack with Swords Dance. Lickilicky also provides a check to Rain teams with Power Whip, as well as a way of surprise dealing with T-Tar without any major consequences. However, I won't deny that for Lickilicky to really be a threat, it needs the SD, which does have problems. And that Fighting Weakness, even when Chopled, can be very hard to cope with. Golurk on the other hand can come in immediately and smash things. But Lickilicky is more defensive, and serves more purpose on the team than Golurk.

    All in all, I think this is a more even match up between the two. Golurk is immediately more offensive, but Lickilicky has more staying power if you overlook the Fighting weakness. I would test this switch out more, but I feel the Lickilicky will be more valuable to the team for what you're looking for than Golurk.

    From my view, Golurk doesn't really seem to sit in as well with your team as the other two. The added Dark and Ice/Water weaknesses are painful as Rain teams are still a very real threat, Ice is overtly rampant, and T-Tar exists. Emboar blocks both the Dark and the Ice, while Lickilicky takes minimal damage from Water and can fight back with Power Whip. Your HH Cress+Golurk combo could be nice, but then that would be an overreliance on Cress, which could crumble if Cress gets OHKO'd by a stray Megahorn, Dark Gem Boosted Crunch, or takes a crit. I'd still test it, but I think it'll be a very quick test.

    As for your Swagger problems, why not try shifting your Lum Berry over to Rhyperior, or go with a Persim Berry (first of all), so that the confusion is negated. I'm all for Wide Lens, but the Wide Lens only increases by a tiny margin. I know the tiny margin could mean the game, but being confused also can. A +2 Rhyperior or Emboar is crazy. Rhyperior also doesn't appreciate Burns, so Lum Berry could be a really nice choice. But you also mentioned Safeguard, a move that I only wish I had space for. That is a very good idea. I would suggest testing out replacing Moonlight with it, see how that runs. D-Nite could also do it, but I feel that would be too many Pokemon doing a lot of set up. Those are free turns for the opponent to knock out your mons. Having Cress do it could be immensely useful though, since Cress could then just do all the setting up. Both ideas could be something to look into, though. (:


    Last thing, you didn't address Reckless on Emboar. Emboar doesn't have access to Reckless legally yet.

    Feel like you need a little more Pokemon in your life? Tune into our show!
    EPISODE 55 - SLOWPOKE HOLIDAY
    Looking for something Pokemon-related to listen to while playing through Pokemon XY? This episode is for you!!
    Released: 12/11/14


    Guess who claimed Luxray?!

  13. #13
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    Okay so here's what's up:


    1. Testing on Golurk failed.

    2. Safeguard over Moonlight on Cresselia drastically decreases its bulkiness and over Ice Beam makes it Taunt bait so I put a Lum Berry on Rhyperior.

    3. Dragonite does better than Hydreigon bulky-wise and you were right, overall better. I don't know why I switched him out. But he needs the Wide Lens and can't have Safeguard.

    4. Gem on Jellicent does a huge amount to Cresselia and takes out anything that's weak to it so that'll stay.

    5. Lickilicky gets normal gem and with it occasionally does not need Swords Dance to explode.

    6. Changing the defense EVs on Rhyperior to special defense is iffy; he survives a few more attacks specially but other moves such as Close Combat do more phyically. So I don't know which route to take there.

    7. Emboar is purely physical again since Wild Charge was a great answer for Jellicent and his huge attacks +Cresselia's Helping Hand aren't that weak. Dragonite can take out Gastrodon anyways with STAB max special attack Hurricane and help from Jellicent. (By the way I know Emboar doesn't get Reckless legally yet.)

    8. Emboar now has a Sitrus Berry to cope with huge recoil damage and for quick recovery.



    Thanks again for the advice Justin.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


  14. #14

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    cloud nine doesn't dispell weather. it just makes the pokemon with it immune to weather damage and the damge or accuracy buffs on moves like thunder or fire blast.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosts of the Forums View Post
    cloud nine doesn't dispell weather. it just makes the pokemon with it immune to weather damage and the damge or accuracy buffs on moves like thunder or fire blast.
    I know this. Where did it confuse you in the description so I can fix it? Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    I live in Eastern Time (GMT -4)


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