Must be regular basic in Isshu, but if Dragonite did hit someone, there be real panic.Originally Posted by 00poke_maniac
Call me Jermaine now
Must be regular basic in Isshu, but if Dragonite did hit someone, there be real panic.
Pokemon fan (Anime, Games, and Manga) Since 97
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DEM
Well, we know Dragonite doesn't like to hurt others even though he raged, he protected the Pidove from Hydreigon attack for example.
I wouldn't be that sacred either I think, Adeku or Shirona just had to take a pokemon out and one/two shot him if needed.
Pokémon Champion
But you're ignoring two important points:
1. Evolution mid-battle in the anime is very common.
2. Evolutions are stronger than their pre-evolved forms.
Now the thing is, let's say that Krokorok wasn't meant to evolve, they would've had Krokorok using some really cool strategy of some kind and Krokorok would've knocked out Dragonite, regardless of evolution.
But they had a meeting and decided that they wanted Krokorok to evolve, and so they chose to do so.
That doesn't mean that the battle couldn't have been written where Krokorok couldn't beat Dragonite. The reason why the writers made it seem like that was merely because they wanted to evolve Krokorok. And unfortunately mid-battle the only way to evolve a Pokemon is by struggle, because struggling to stay "conscious" obviously can trigger evolution.
Sure we would be better off with a Chimchar>Monferno evolution. Beating an "Ursaring" and evolving prior to "Electabuzz" only winning instead of losing. The only problem is that can't happen in a 1 on 1, and nobody wants to see a situation where Krokorok wins and then evolves, and does absolute nothing as a Krookodile, until then next battle it's in which right now might only be the league.
But evolving by struggling to overcome a problem, is probably no different than real life examples, of being nearly knocked out in a fighting sport, and then somehow accessing your reserves and making a comeback. It has happened before.
Sure you can call it cheap or DEM all you want.
But the simple fact, the way the battle was written was a combination of Krokorok evolving, 1 on 1 battle, and always making Ash look like the underdog. Sure maybe it would be better if a stone edge connected, and Krokorok felt very powerful in doing so, then evolved as a result and then continued to knock the crap out of Dragonite resulting in a win.
But those don't happen. Most mid evolution battles are a result of trying to not be knocked out and some how accessing reserve power that results in evolution if said Pokemon chooses to evolve.
But again that's because that's how these types of battle are usually written. If this was Unfezant for example, who can't evolve, and if Ash was supposed to win, then either Unfezant would learn a new move, or it would beat Dragonite on it's own merits, and of Ash's own skill.
You just have to accept that this is how mid battle evolution happen. Sure we'd all like a Krabby>Kingler, Chimchar>Monferno evolution, and to a lesser extent a Sewaddle>Swadloon evolution, but as I said that can only happen in a 3 on 3 or more. You could say 2 on 2 but then someone of Ash's would have to be the fall guy.
I will not say I'm the best. But by Ash's standards, I'm pretty good.
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Some of you need to look at this before you comment on what a Pokemon should learn. Some of you are okay but some of you need to look at this: http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/ This is the attackdex, it is your friend.
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Spikeshell Trainer
It's a common DEM plot device used to turn the tables in a show with "below average" writing and people are getting tired of it's repeated use in BW to get ASH (the person whose been shown to be an awesome battler in the past seasons with out this DEM plot device getting him through everything that's big) out of jams.
What's the big deal?
Mine Trainer
Actually a great end to a pretty bad tournament. I really liked Ash and Iris' battle. Krokorok got decent screen time before it evolved, and yay for doing damage to Dragonite I guess. The red eyes were pretty sweet too. I thought Krookodile looked to bit animated sort of strangely in the tiny movie cameo it had, but he actually looks great here. And YES, he finally has a full movepool. Great moveset they've given him now.
I like where they're going with Dragonite now, never expected that rampage. So so glad that they didn't end his disobedience in this episode, and his RAGE~ problem is more unique than "**** you I'm not battling". So much for people complaining about Dragonite's problems being resolve quickly (but I guess there's always the awful writing that is Dragonite's attempt to MURDER ASH).
Pignite should have gotten a hit in, but I suppose Serperior had to look flawless to it's loss to Bouffalant will be a shock. Still glad that Pignite lost anyway, I was getting tired of the thing. One thing that bothered me about these battles was the fact that every little bit of battling had to be broken up so the whole cast could comment or Cynthia could go ಠ_ಠ.
I hope Ash's next evolution doesn't happen mid battle again, at least. e: Seeing the posts about that, I think that people find it so annoying because it keeps on happening. In Sinnoh the only Pokemon that evolved to win a battle was Staravia and that was only the Pokeringer. It just make sit look like Ash can't win without having a Pokemon evolve. Plus, it just gets boring seeing the same thing again and again. I want at least one unique-ish evolution, even if it is against TR in the two parter.
Last edited by Valoo.; 1st September 2012 at 9:42 PM.
Blackout 2.0
I fixed it for you. I don't understand why everyone is acting like it's okay for Ash's Pokemon to evolve in the heat of battle; if we were talking about another character, they would be dragged for filth. Ash only gets away with it because: a) he's the main character, and b) his stans will support him no matter how much DEM his Pokemon use. When you combine leniency from the general public and stans, you get a terrible concoction known as hypocrisy.
And truthfully, I would have nothing to complain about if Krokorok had defeated Dragonite without evolving.
#thuglife #navy #ratchet
Plushiemon shooter
It would still be bad writing because a krokorok did something 2 fully evolved ice types couldn't.
Glacier Trainer
why you glad pignite lost? it lost in such a ******** way? maybe if it was better written it would be okay, but the way it was written and shown was just stupid. he should have got in a few hits at least..that was just ridiculous
why are people hating on pignite?
Glacier Trainer
why you glad pignite lost? it lost in such a ******** way? maybe if it was better written it would be okay, but the way it was written and shown was just stupid. he should have got in a few hits at least..that was just ridiculous
why are people hating on pignite?
Unova Champion
With Minimal Team Rocket involvement, his pokemon are given other methods of evolving. Even in DP a lot of the evolutions happened in battles vs Paul.
Starly > Staravia : vs Team Rocket
Staravia > Staraptor : vs Paul
Turtwig > Grotle : vs Paul
Grotle > Torterra : vs Team Rocket
Chimchar > Monferno : vs Paul
Monferno > Infernape : Own Episode (Paul was present)
Gligar > Gliscor : Own Episode (Gary was present)
So in DP it was team rocket, vs paul, or when a main rival was present.
In BW...
Pidove > Tranquill : Unique Episode
Tranquill > Unfezant : Mid-Battle [Skyla]
Tepig > Pignite : Mid-Battle [Shamus]
Sewaddle > Swadloon : Mid-Battle [Burgh]
Swadloon > Leavanny : Unique Episode
Roggenrola > Boldore : Mid Battle [Clay]
Sandile > Krokorok : Unique Episode *Not caught yet*
Krokorok > Krookodile : Mid-Battle [Iris]
So basically Team Rocket and Paul have been replaced with the Mid-battle Evolutions in Gyms and Tournaments.
Iris
Drilbur > Excadrill : Mid-Battle [Drayden]
Cilan
Dwebble > Crustle : vs Team Rocket
"if we were talking about another character, they would be dragged for filth"
See Above. Ash doesn't get special treatment.
Last edited by _Taidow_; 1st September 2012 at 10:44 PM.
Battle Arena Champion
In terms of this saga, Iris and Cilan's Pokemon don't have alot of room to "evolve mid-battle" based on their rather minimal on-screen progress/battling in battles of significance or their current state.
In terms of Cilan, Pansage can't evolve without a Leaf-stone, Stunfisk can't evolve, and Crustle evolved during a TR romp. So there won't be alot of "mid-battle evolutions" for him.
As for Iris, Dragonite is already fully evolved, Emonga can't evolve, Axew can evolve (but is never really used outside of training) so it does learn new moves randomly in serious battles, and Excadrill is fully evolved.
In comparison Ash has 10 Pokemon, 8 in which are 3 stage Pokemon. Combined that with the "faster pacing", and dropped quality of written battles in this series, there probably will be alot of mid-battle evolutions here. Personally I didn't find Pignite or Krokorok's evolutions particularly cheap. However the same can't be said of Boldore, or Tranquil.
Last edited by Graham Aker; 2nd September 2012 at 12:58 AM.
Pokémon Champion
No they wouldn't. Sure there would be some people, but just opposites of someone like Haters gonna Hate but instead of Ash it would be other characters.
Plus it's not like when it happens to Ash, that it's free of criticism. It's not fair of you Kira to say that people think it's okay for Ash's Pokemon to evolve mid battle, when there are at least 4-5 people who don't like mid-battle evolutions.
I would be fine if Axew were to evolve, mid battle and beat something, so long as it's justified. Such as Axew dealing damage prior to evolution. Something like Krokorok did.
If it was like Pignite vs Serperior, but then suddenly Pignite evolved and beat Serperior with Blast Burn then I would have a problem with, even with Ash's Pokemon.
I even said before this episode aired, that I didn't like how Ash's Krokorok/Krookodile was beating Dragonite but this was based on the Manga adapatation, not the actual thing. In the actual match, Krokorok dealt two attacks, one a very powerful super effective move which deals alot of damage to something like Dragonite. Sure ice beam should theoretically deal more damage to Dragonite, but oh well, that's just how it is. Then it easily got up (well in the sense that it didn't struggle to get up, it got up quickly) and evolved then used another powerful super effective move (less effective than Stone edge though) then used Crunch, followed by a final powerful stone edge.
Now Dragonite might have developed a tolerance to ice attacks in the same way that most humans develop a tolerance for certain things. But that might have been out of necessity and thus I can see why rock and dragon types would technically deal more damage on the principle that Dragonite doesn't have a tolerance to them like ice types.
But anway.
@ Col-Erase
Way to ignore my very valid argument in the thread preview of this episode: http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...7#post14965427
Glad to know when someone makes a valid argument, it is ignored but said person keeps bringing up said subject.
You forget. Tranquill battled Swoobat and won, then had to dodge Unfezant's attacks and be recalled , and finally went up against Swanna, where in the beginning it wasn't doing too bad resulting in it being hit by a powerful hurricane attack causing it to evolve.
Or did you mean Pidove into Tranquill? (I'm getting really sick and tired of people incorrectly mentioning evolutions. Roggenrola evolved, Boldore hasn't, Krookodile can't evolve however Krokorok can and has) Well you can't argue that one because it evolved in a similar way that Charmander evolved. And kind of like Starly evolved. Ash's basic stage (fully unevolved) bird Pokemon have never done anything of great value before they evolved.
I'd give you Roggenrola, but then I'd just argue they clearly wanted Ash with a Boldore as soon as possible and the fact that it wasn't used in a battle at all until Clay's. Granted the constant drill runs, and no damage done to Excadrill until evolution can be considered very cheap.
But then as I keep arguing. Hard to portray Ash as the underdog, and fairly write the battle, especially given how little time is left. The battle was clearly to make Ash's Roggenrola look completely inferior. But I'd have to argue that sure Roggenrola had no shot, and sure maybe it was VERY cheap and bad writing, but then I'd just argue that so what if Roggenrola couldn't do it. It wasn't Roggenrola that defeated Excadrill but Boldore.
Last edited by dman_dustin; 1st September 2012 at 11:19 PM.
I will not say I'm the best. But by Ash's standards, I'm pretty good.
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Some of you need to look at this before you comment on what a Pokemon should learn. Some of you are okay but some of you need to look at this: http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/ This is the attackdex, it is your friend.
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"HGH" for short
Have you forgotten about evolving before a battle? Krokorok could've easily evolved before the battle with Dragonite and then beat Dragonite fairly in a one on one fight, but of course another mid-battle evolution has to happen because Ash wouldn't be Ash without his convenient luck.
No pokemon trainer would get this lucky like Ash. He's about to lose and then his pokemon starts glowing and saves him. This wouldn't an issue if the evolution took place before the battle, but constantly having it during the battle really doesn't make Ash look good as a trainer, it makes him look lucky and nothing more. At this point, I think we all want to see a little more skill out of Ash, not always luck. Any other trainer with Krokorok would've gotten smoked by Dragonite.
Trainers don't go into battles praying for evolutions to save them, they go in with what they have and even though things will mostly turn in Ash's favor because he is the main character, making it so obvious doesn't help.
What me and others like Kira are saying is that if the battle started with Dragonite vs. Krookodile and the battle ended with Krookodile winning, that's something we could all swallow and see that Ash does have skill, but this is just another exaggerated win and the fact that Ash got owned by Trip in the next round with no evolution happening doesn't help either.
In Paradise with Iris and her Pokemon!
Pokémon Champion
Not with the way the episodes were set up as they were to over-glorify Dragonite, not to mention no Pokemon of Ash's has ever evolved in the first few seconds of an episode, ignoring Swadloon's evolution into Leavanny for the simple fact, the episode revolved around Leavanny which isn't what battle episodes are about.
As I said the writers chose to evolve Krokorok and they chose this method because it made the most sense. Why in the hell would Krokorok randomly evolve just to suit YOUR needs of a fair battle. Let it evolve when it actually makes sense, not when it makes you feel good about the end result.but of course another mid-battle evolution has to happen because Ash wouldn't be Ash without his convenient luck.
Well rivals should evolve their Pokemon off screen, but remember the tag battle in DP, had Paul's Elekid not evolved they wouldn't have won the match. But of course no trainer would get this lucky but it's only because the only Pokemon trainer we see the most is Ash. If this was a series about any other protagonist, that protagonist would have a whole crap load of mid battle evolutions as well.No pokemon trainer would get this lucky like Ash. He's about to lose and then his pokemon starts glowing and saves him.
Actually while you can say it makes him look "too" lucky, on the other hand such evolutions show how much character Ash's Pokemon have when they evolve. When they refuse to be knocked out and evolve to gain that extra boost in strength, that just shows how much they "care" about Ash and don't want him to lose.This wouldn't an issue if the evolution took place before the battle, but constantly having it during the battle really doesn't make Ash look good as a trainer, it makes him look lucky and nothing more.
Sure, when all his Pokemon fully evolve, or if it's already fully evolved, then we will see true skill out of Ash. But whenever it's convenient for there to be an evolution, then that will have higher priority. After all in Best Wishes, mid battle evolutions are the only way the Pokemon seem to evolve, since they don't have any other outlet. Team Rocket is useless in THIS particular matter, so no sense in relying on them. AND I'm not sure if the writers want to devote an episode where a Pokemon evolves from some emotional event.At this point, I think we all want to see a little more skill out of Ash, not always luck. Any other trainer with Krokorok would've gotten smoked by Dragonite.
You act as if Ash can control when his Pokemon evolve or not.Trainers don't go into battles praying for evolutions to save them, they go in with what they have
Even in-universe that would never be the case (with the exception of item induced evolutions), natural evolutions are decided by the Pokemon themselves not Ash.
Maybe but then you'd have to believe that the writers would delay the Junior Cup even further just to include an evolution of Krokorok. Krokorok evolved at the only time that the story was set up as is. It couldn't just magically evolve when being sent out, and I'm not sure it would make too much sense if it evolved from getting a lucky shot in at Dragonite. Struggling to not be knocked out, and accessing those inner reserves was the only way that it could've happened. What you're suggesting would require the writers to have completely rewritten the structure of the story.What me and others like Kira are saying is that if the battle started with Dragonite vs. Krookodile and the battle ended with Krookodile winning, that's something we could all swallow and see that Ash does have skill.
All not to mention Ash was screwed with only access to two attacking moves, and one dodging attack that doesn't deal damage.
I don't see what Ash losing to Trip has anything to do with anything, seeing as how, again it's up to the writers to decide (well probably the executive producers), they weren't going to have two of Ash's Pokemon evolve within the same episode, especially not something like Pignite who before Krokorok evolving into Krookodile was the last evolution that took place.but this is just another exaggerated win and the fact that Ash got owned by Trip in the next round with no evolution happening doesn't help either.
Pignite lost simply because the writers demanded it, and Pignite lost because it received damage from two attacks. It was still better than the other Pokemon. Plus it was Trip who had to "flawlessly" win against all his opponents. Just to make him an arrogant jerk for when he is horribly crushed by Alder.
Last edited by dman_dustin; 2nd September 2012 at 3:44 AM.
I will not say I'm the best. But by Ash's standards, I'm pretty good.
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Some of you need to look at this before you comment on what a Pokemon should learn. Some of you are okay but some of you need to look at this: http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/ This is the attackdex, it is your friend.
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Blackout 2.0
Uh, why is Iris's battle with Drayden there? That battle happened in a flashback, so it's irrelevant to this debate. And Cilan's battle with Team Rocket shouldn't be listed there either since: a) he was battling against irrelevant characters to begin with, and b) nobody ever says anything bad about Cilan anyway.
It's so obvious that Ash gets special treatment, even if his fans don't want to admit it. It's one of the worst plot devices I've ever seen, and I watched this anime for 14 years. And let's be honest. If Iris's Axew evolved in the midst of battle and won as a Fraxure, both her and Fraxure would be taken to a pit to be stoned to death by 95% of PAD's citizens.
#thuglife #navy #ratchet
We got 3D: XY!
I agree. Let be honest, Axew vs Golett was cheap. A miraculous Outrage that destroys the little golem in one move and it's never seen again.
Dragonite receives some damage from Crunch and a Stone Edge before Krokorok's evolution, is hit by a Dragon Claw and NOT defeated, goes into a rampage while lowering its guard, receives a Crunch but manages to shake it off, collides with the ground after its Dragon Rush misses its target and receives a surprise Stone Edge that faint it. Definitely not the same scenario.
True, the evolution happened (and it kinda sucks, since it's another mid-battle evolution happened during a crucial match), but it was somewhat justified (Krokorok could have had trained in the time between its evolution from Sandile and its capture, just like Dragonite trained before its capture) and wasn't as overpowered as the manga made us think. Krookodile still had to inflict a good damage before knocking out its opponent, and that make me think that Krookodile and Dragonite are on an even level. The Krook could have won even if it was a Krookodile from the beginning (Crunch > Stone Edge > Dragon Claw > rampage > Crunch > Stone Edge). Heck, maybe even as a Krokorok if it adopted an hit-and-run strategy, but that would have been too time-consuming.
Remember, guys. Most of the evolutions happened mid-battle (mainly against Team Rocket, but still). It's not new.
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"HGH" for short
When I said 'evolve before the battle,' I meant before the trainers are even on the battlefield. For example instead of using Leavanny, Ash could've used Krokorok and when it won, it then evolves into Krookodile, and Ash decides to use it later in the tournament. Apparently evolutions after a battle is over is no longer allowed.
But I see you're just simply trying to jusifty these evolutions as "legit" even though it's happened far beyond into the convenience territory. No one is saying mid-battle evolutions shouldn't happen, but for Ash it's become a practice at this point. The writers should be creative enough to evolve his pokes in a situation that's not always in the middle of a battle (how about after a battle huh?).
In Paradise with Iris and her Pokemon!
Plushiemon shooter
Elekid evolving mid battle was so cheap. Dawn and Conway were so much better than ash and Paul but I guess they had to sueify him even more.
Battle Arena Champion
Not if the thing was actually trained, and it was the result of past progress. Axew has been used in a serious battle since the battle against Luke a grand total of "0" times. Iris' only Pokemon that can evolve...learns new moves out of the blue. But again, Axew is hardly ever used...ever. Her other Pokemon either can't evolve or were written to be already fully evolved. Cilan is in more or less the same boat. Stop making Iris out she's this poor, poor abused victim.
Last edited by Graham Aker; 2nd September 2012 at 4:21 AM.
Pokémon Champion
And you apparently missed my point.
I said they'd have to restructure the entire plot in order for this to be allowable.
Why would Krokorok be seen beating a Karrablast, somehow evolve afterwards, all within what 10 seconds?
Evolution should be important enough that it should get a lot of focus, not a few seconds within the 10 seconds that the battle took.
With as much focus as they were going to give Iris and Dragonite, THE ONLY WAY, Krokorok could've evolved was the way it was written. Anything else would be a horribly rush job.
Plus I would rather have a decent battle, involving mid battle evolutions, rather than a battle that lasts 10 seconds and throwing in an evolution that is hurriedly mentioned.
-
Ash: Oh yay Krok-
Narrator- And thus concludes the first round of the junior cup, with a surprise evolution of Krokorok into Krookodile. Next episode involves the next round. Till next time
-
I mean seriously.
While it would depend entirely on her opponent Pokemon, I really wouldn't care.
Hell I'd be fine with Scraggy kicking Axew's rear end, resulting in Axew evolving and kicking Scraggy's rear end in defeat.
I will not say I'm the best. But by Ash's standards, I'm pretty good.
-----------
Some of you need to look at this before you comment on what a Pokemon should learn. Some of you are okay but some of you need to look at this: http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/ This is the attackdex, it is your friend.
-----------
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