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Thread: BWS2-19 Unova League Begins [FIRST POST UPDATED 11/8]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    The thing is that why do all Ash's Pokemon need to evolve. I know people are going to argue with me about this but because Oshawott is popular and didn't evolve, that doesn't mean that he can't get development and he can't turn into a powerhouse. I'm going to go back to Pokemon like Squirtle, Bulbasaur, Piplup and Cyndaquil. Those Pokemon never evolved until Cyndaquil evolved in DP and yet, they were all shown as powerhouses while being popular at the same time and getting development.
    Yeah, but Totodile has both a terrible battle record and he still has to evolve. And he is a starter.

    Indeed, an unevolved Pokémon can show development, but this is a thing that was quite lackluster this saga. That's why I want to see the starters evolve: if they can't develop in term of strength and/or battling experience, they can show growth by evolving. A luxury that Pokémon who lack evolutions, like Torkoal, don't have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    Yeah, but Totodile has both a terrible battle record and he still has to evolve. And he is a starter.

    Indeed, an unevolved Pokémon can show development, but this is a thing that was quite lackluster this saga. That's why I want to see the starters evolve: if they can't develop in term of strength and/or battling experience, they can show growth by evolving. A luxury that Pokémon who lack evolutions, like Torkoal, don't have.
    In first 30 or so episodes, Oshawott was on his way to becoming a Squirtle or Bulbasaur (A Pokemon that showed that he could be strong even without evolving). The problem is these last few episodes they had mainly used Oshawott as comic relief and we haven't seen him battle lately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    The thing is that why do all Ash's Pokemon need to evolve. I know people are going to argue with me about this but because Oshawott is popular and didn't evolve, that doesn't mean that he can't get development and he can't turn into a powerhouse. I'm going to go back to Pokemon like Squirtle, Bulbasaur, Piplup and Cyndaquil. Those Pokemon never evolved until Cyndaquil evolved in DP and yet, they were all shown as powerhouses while being popular at the same time and getting development.
    Bulbasaur and Squirtle were originals and were novelized. Cyndaquil evolved because this isn't like the old days where basic staged starters could rock the league and still tell a good story. Piplup doesn't really count since contest battles are very inferior to League battles. Plus, if Ash had Piplup, it definitely would be an Empoleon now.

    To play Devils Advocate, Chimchar was(and still is) very marketable, cute and had personality. On top of which, he could've easily not evolved to prove to Paul he was strong and on top of which didn't need evolution and we see what happened. Turtwig wasn't very marketable iirc but it was portrayed as very fast and had a role similar to Bulbasaur but we saw what happened. Same thing with Treecko, it proved to be Ash's strongest pokemon and took down numerous evolved opponents and we saw what happened. I don't really want to count Chikorita, but she had quite the personality and again....we see what happened. In modern day pokemon, you just don't see basic starters at the League because it just doesn't work.
    Last edited by PrinceGray; 21st September 2012 at 7:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceGray View Post
    Bulbasaur and Squirtle were originals and were novelized. Cyndaquil evolved because this isn't like the old days where basic staged starters could rock the league and still tell a good story. Piplup doesn't really count since contest battles are very inferior to League battles. Plus, if Ash had Piplup, it definitely would be an Empoleon now.

    To play Devils Advocate, Chimchar was very marketable, cute and had personality. On top of which, he could've easily not evolved to prove to Paul he was strong and on top of which didn't need evolution and we see what happened. Turtwig wasn't very marketable iirc but it was portrayed as very fast and had a role similar to Bulbasaur but we saw what happened. Same thing with Treecko, it proved to be Ash's strongest pokemon and took down numerous evolved opponents and we saw what happened. In modern day pokemon, you just don't see basic starters at the League because it just doesn't work.
    It still works with Pikachu. It worked with Gible. I don't see why it can't work with Oshawott or Snivy if the writers have a good story to tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    It still works with Pikachu. It worked with Gible. I don't see why it can't work with Oshawott or Snivy if the writers have a good story to tell.

    Yeah, but with the way writers have been doing BW, I don't see the pulling this off. We'll have to wait and see what happens of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    It still works with Pikachu. It worked with Gible. I don't see why it can't work with Oshawott or Snivy if the writers have a good story to tell.
    Well with Oshawott, it would need to grow up a little more. And Snivy has gotten along with it's fellow members, even fought with Tepig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    It still works with Pikachu. It worked with Gible. I don't see why it can't work with Oshawott or Snivy if the writers have a good story to tell.
    I am just worried Ash MAY by about 40% chance of happening lose because of them....WHICH I would hate to see. They are strong enough to hold their own in battle just not as strong as the reserves who needs the battles and screentime more than they do. Also Totodile and Cynaquil was used in the Johto and they got wins there but Squirtle, Charizard and Charizard dominated it temporaily.
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    I'm going to say with nothing else different we still would see more of empoleon with Barry than we ever would have if dawns piplup evolved.

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    The topic of whether unevolved Pokemon can be strong or not was a topic brought up in BW in "Ash and Trip's Thrid Battle" and Snivy even defeated Trip's Servinve in the 10th episode so like I said, I think it's possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundedshock View Post
    I am just worried Ash MAY by about 40% chance of happening lose because of them....WHICH I would hate to see. They are strong enough to hold their own in battle just not as strong as the reserves who needs the battles and screentime more than they do. Also Totodile and Cynaquil was used in the Johto and they got wins there but Squirtle, Charizard and Charizard dominated it temporaily.
    Ya charizard dominated it twice as hard i agree! :P but i think with new move sets ashs pokemon can hold there own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    It still works with Pikachu. It worked with Gible. I don't see why it can't work with Oshawott or Snivy if the writers have a good story to tell.
    As long as Oshawott keeps being the comic relief and Snivy gets shafted even more (unless she gets something in the Crossdressing episode) I can't accept them as they are. They lack that good story that you're mentioning.

    Hm, well... Oshawott got development while learning Aqua Jet, fighting without his scalchop and perfecting Aqua Jet, but that was back in BW032 and his last "true" battle was in BW061. A bit too fragmentary, in my opinion, to consider him a little powerhouse, even after learning Hydro Pump.

    Snivy is a tiny powerhouse, but all Grass-type moves? What will happen if she faces a Sap Sipper mon? She desperately needs an upgrade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    As long as Oshawott keeps being the comic relief and Snivy gets shafted even more (unless she gets something in the Crossdressing episode) I can't accept them as they are. They lack that good story that you're mentioning.

    Hm, well... Oshawott got development while learning Aqua Jet, fighting without his scalchop and perfecting Aqua Jet, but that was back in BW032 and his last "true" battle was in BW061. A bit too fragmentary, in my opinion, to consider him a little powerhouse, even after learning Hydro Pump.

    Snivy is a tiny powerhouse, but all Grass-type moves? What will happen if she faces a Sap Sipper mon? She desperately needs an upgrade.
    Evolving is just a cheap tool the writers use to say, "Look this Pokemon got stronger" and that was especially evident in Best Wishes. Ash's reserves who he hasn't used in battle basically the whole season evolved instead of Oshawott and Snivy who are used more frequently. Pidove evolved in "A Venipede Stampede" and got stronger but do you really feel that she went through any development whatsoever? Did Roggenrola go through any development? Snivy evolving wouldn't help her develop. They need a good story and a good story could be told whether Snivy evolves or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    He better beat Trip with his Unova Pokemon. Otherwise, we will hear people complaining and saying, "Ash is so weak. He needed his reserves to beat a beginner"
    Given the fact he's beaten Ash badly several times, I don't think the arguement holds much merit.

    Trip's Serperior being powerful is one thing, but there's also Conkeldurr who I doubt will be portrayed as weak again, and Pringles who was responsible for Ash's downfall in a fight as well.

    I can not in all honesty see his current team take them down, Pikachu might be able to stop Serperior, or at the very least set it up for the kill with static, but without that it will destroy Ash's pokemon one by one because if Pignite couldn't resist it's moves what makes you think the others like Levanny and Unfezant can either?

    This isn't like what happened with Paul, Ash clearly had motives to use the same pokemon he used the first time he got thrashed, not to mention Chimchar was basically built up to destroy it's former trainer and get Ash's point across to Paul, we ain't got that situation here.

    I want someone to effectively peice by peice, explain to me how Ash's unova pokemon are going to defeat trip, cause I bet none of you can do it.
    Last edited by Almighty Zard; 21st September 2012 at 8:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Zard View Post
    Given the fact he's beaten Ash badly several times, I don't think the arguement holds much merit.

    Trip's Serperior being powerful is one thing, but there's also Conkeldurr who I doubt will be portrayed as weak again, and Pringles who was responsible for Ash's downfall in a fight as well.

    I can not in all honesty see his current team take them down, Pikachu might be able to stop Serperior, or at the very least set it up for the kill with static, but without that it will destroy Ash's pokemon one by one because if Pignite couldn't resist it's moves what makes you think the others like Levanny and Unfezant can either?
    as much as i wanna see reserves vs trip i dont think it will happen. i think if reserves are used it will be on other rivals but against trip i can see him using his unova pokemon like he did with paul and only using his sinnoh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    Evolving is just a cheap tool the writers use to say, "Look this Pokemon got stronger" and that was especially evident in Best Wishes. Ash's reserves who he hasn't used in battle basically the whole season evolved instead of Oshawott and Snivy who are used more frequently. Pidove evolved in "A Venipede Stampede" and got stronger but do you really feel that she went through any development whatsoever? Did Roggenrola go through any development? Snivy evolving wouldn't help her develop. They need a good story and a good story could be told whether Snivy evolves or not.
    Don't remind me them. The writers really screwed up with their evolutions. But I think that Tepig and Krokorok were nicely done. Why they couldn't do that with the others? Oh, right... because they aren't popular and marketable and (supposedly) kids only care if they're strong and win a lot. But again, why they can't do that with the unevolved Pokémon too and show them that they're fierce competitors by winning a lot? That's what I don't get.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    As long as Oshawott keeps being the comic relief and Snivy gets shafted even more (unless she gets something in the Crossdressing episode) I can't accept them as they are. They lack that good story that you're mentioning.

    Hm, well... Oshawott got development while learning Aqua Jet, fighting without his scalchop and perfecting Aqua Jet, but that was back in BW032 and his last "true" battle was in BW061. A bit too fragmentary, in my opinion, to consider him a little powerhouse, even after learning Hydro Pump.

    Snivy is a tiny powerhouse, but all Grass-type moves and Attract? What will happen if she faces a Female Sap Sipper mon? She desperately needs an upgrade.
    It's the movesets!

    Now if Snivy had Attract Leaf Storm Leaf Blade/AquaTail (I dunno. Cursed Body is evil and Sap Sipper is mean.) WringOut or more coverage moves she would be a considered a mini powerhouse. Same thing with Oshawott and 4 unneccesary water moves and the fact that he is way too much for comic relief. Squirtle was funny but he could back up his bark with bite. Same thing with Corphish and Buizel I guess..... Oshawott had great development but after that he seemed so incompetent after BW061.... I mean he knocked himself out with Aqua Jet with Roggenrola and the Onix and his hydro pump failed to knock out a gang of Onix? His battle with Meloetta may not be great but we'll see if he is at best decent as a fighter.....otherwise, there is Palpitoad 24/7.

    I know NOTHING with 4 move slots will gain perfect coverage only with 5 or 10 you can (Drake's Haxed Dragonite) and there are Pokemon made to wall other Pokemon naturally but they should do better.
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    Ash's Pokemon will obviously be strong in the league whether they evolve or not. Don't see why that should even be discussed, it's the way they've always done it. The main thing about evolution for ME is that there's some cool Pokemon that I'd like for Ash to have, it would simply increase the entertainment value of the show for me if he used a Seismitoad, a Dewott and a Servine. Boldore, Pignite and Scraggy are cool enough, I've even used them myself in low tier competitive play lol. But if not then fine, it's not like he's gonna lose because of it.
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    Oshawott had great development in the earlier episodes of BW where learned to battle without his scalchop, the episode where he learned Aqua Jet and the episode where he perfected Aqua Jet by learning to open his eyes under water. Lately he has been used for Comic Relief but the League is coming in November and based on the titles of the episodes, I don't think we will see Oshawott evolve or have another development episode before the League unless Ash uses him in that Tag Battle episode coming up.
    Last edited by Pokemaniac24; 21st September 2012 at 8:07 PM.

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    They obviosuly want to avoid the massive crapstorm they had with Paul's team at the league by only hyping serperior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Zard View Post
    Given the fact he's beaten Ash badly several times, I don't think the arguement holds much merit.

    Trip's Serperior being powerful is one thing, but there's also Conkeldurr who I doubt will be portrayed as weak again, and Pringles who was responsible for Ash's downfall in a fight as well.

    I can not in all honesty see his current team take them down, Pikachu might be able to stop Serperior, or at the very least set it up for the kill with static, but without that it will destroy Ash's pokemon one by one because if Pignite couldn't resist it's moves what makes you think the others like Levanny and Unfezant can either?
    I agree that to beat Trip, Ash needs to train his Unova pokemons alot because even his 2nd strongest pokemon Pignite with the speed boost from Flame Charge couldn't match Serperior speed and lost to it. That itself says that Trip's other pokemon would be as strong as it is and would be problematic for Ash. But it doesn't seems like he gets to much training done in before the league (hope they atleast show the possibility that Ash had trained his pokemons off-screen).

    As for how to defeat Trip's Serperior, well i doubt that Pikachu's Static could help anymore especially after Trip's match with Alder.
    For some reason i believe that Trip's Serperior would know Gastro Acid or Safeguard as one of its moves during the league. Gastro Acid because it would cancel the abilities such as Sap Sipper or Safeguard to cure itself and protect from status problems like paralysis or poisoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    They obviosuly want to avoid the massive crapstorm they had with Paul's team at the league by only hyping serperior.
    But i feel that Paul's team was the best one they had for a rival to use in the entire series. Thats because it really showed his experience as a trainer who has fought a lot of gym leaders and taken part in a lot of leagues.
    Last edited by Lucario At Service; 21st September 2012 at 8:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucario At Service View Post
    I agree that to beat Trip, Ash needs to train his Unova pokemons alot because even his 2nd strongest pokemon Pignite with the speed boost from Flame Charge couldn't match Serperior speed and lost to it. That itself says that Trip's other pokemon would be as strong as it is and would be problematic for Ash.

    As for how to defeat Trip's Serperior, well i doubt that Pikachu's Static could help anymore especially after Trip's match with Alder.
    For some reason i believe that Trip's Serperior would know Gastro Acid or Safeguard as one of its moves during the league. Gastro Acid because it would cancel the abilities such as Sap Sipper or Safeguard to cure itself and protect from status problems like paralysis or poisoning.
    How about Ash winning with Unfezant with fast speed and maunverability or Leavanny with String Shot? Slowing the speed snake down or outspeeding it is the way Ash can be it. Destorying the field so Serperior stays in one place and comes toward Pikachu, Unfezant or Leavanny works too. Trip's Jellicent's Cursed Body is more problematic than all Trip's Pokemon combined and he has status + Hex tactics, Trip's Unfezant's speed tactics will fail against Ash's Unfezant or Boldore, Conkeldurr may have Guts but will still be easily taken down by Krookodile, Boldore or Paplitoad; Pokemon who are physically tough, Vanilluxe can use Hail, freeze and accucary tactics but Fire or Sandstorm can fix that and Chandelure may have Sunny Day but Paplitoad, Boldore, and Krookodile can handle it even with Solarbeam.

    If Ash uses good tactics and strong Pokemon with Skill and experience, he can counter Trip's planning ahead and too much (HAX) basic training methods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    They obviosuly want to avoid the massive crapstorm they had with Paul's team at the league by only hyping serperior.
    I agree. I would like each of Trip's and Ash's Pokemon that need the battle time to show what they've got and not just a few like how Infernape was. Oshawott could be less comic relief and more battle wins would be enough to make me happy. And Snivy was always strong, so I don't have any real complaints.

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    I just now realized that each of the "neglected" and "undeveloped" Unova team members got development immediately after the 8th gym battle, which Ash said he would do. But of course the Oak'ed reserves stans will ignore this list and will want his old Pokemon to make it look like Unova was even more pathetic than some of these fans think -_-

    Oshawott- Onix episode- Hydro Pump (Super Strong Move)
    Scraggy- Detective Cilan episode/Daycare episode- Praticed Focus Blast (Just like everybody's favorite hideous Dragon Gible did, but at least Scraggy did a gym battled and wasnt outshined throughout a saga by a ape with mental trauma)
    Leavanny- WTJC
    Boldore-WTJC
    Krokodile- Evolved in the WTJC obivously showing that the tourney itself was training for the league, and that he learned Dragon Claw (a really good move)
    Pikachu- TR-2-Parter Giant Electro Ball (obviously this wont be a one time thing)
    Snivy- BW100 dedicated to her, she might evolve or learn a new move
    Papiltoad- Possible tag battle with Pansage
    Unfezant- TR 2-parter it was seeing at least battling, possible tag battle
    Pignite- Vs Dawn, people are always talking about how he lost against Serperior but they seem to forget that even if Ash used Krokodile he would have lost, because Trip's Serperior knows plot armor and thats how it won.. And its not like Pignite did nothing to it like so many people who want their precious overshadowing Oak'ed reserves back -_-

    And then I read somethinghilarious did someone say that if his Sinnoh team didnt get a league to them self why should Unova? XD Well, lets see why the Oak'ed reserves showed back up in Sinnoh

    HGSS- Main reason for the anime these days is to promote the games, the writers never brought up any hints they should return in DP until that trollish league -_-
    Not enough Sinnoh Pokemon- Ash had seven Pokemon for a league they wanted him to do well in, they had two options, give him more Pokemon at last minuete or use the Oak'ed reserves- They chose the Oak'ed reserves to kill two birds with one stone with the 1st reason above
    Sinnoh was ending and they wanted to show his Pokemon before their deadline was over- Newer fans (or at least the writers believe) dont know his past teams and dont know their battling prowess, they wanted to make it look like it was a new thing when it wasnt -_-

    The other thing are cycles and patterns, this is BW, its broken previous patterns and cycles, Ash winning the league is not impossible because as they have proved many times before this series BW likes to plot twists and the un-expected.
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    It sounds like the League is going to be 1v1's, which is horrible. I'm wanting 6v6's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    It sounds like the League is going to be 1v1's, which is horrible. I'm wanting 6v6's.
    Haunter227, what makes you think this? Was it because of the poster showing the 6 main competitors with one Pokemon by them? I honestly think it is going to be like the other Leagues where they have 3 vs 3 battles and maybe some Tag Battles then go to 6 vs 6. I hope it's that way.

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