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Thread: 2012 Fanfiction Awards - planning thread

  1. #51
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    Hmm . . . I was going to bring up the potential difference between a Mystery Dungeon fic because the Pokemon there exist in a different world from humans and fill the same niche humans would have, as opposed to Pokemon acting more as Pokemon in a "Pokemon-centric" one, but Dragonfree pretty much said everything I would have on that topic. I just wonder if Pokemon filling the role usually filled by humans would be enough to make it separate from one about more traditionally depicted Pokemon. That said, I'd recommend keeping the Pokemon-centric category around if a split occurs rather than replacing it for a Mystery Dungeon one.

    I'm not sure if this question might be a bit off-topic, so sorry if it doesn't help anything, but what would a trainer fic told from the Pokemons' perspective (such as diamondpearl876's Survival Project) count as: Trainer-fic or Pokemon-centric? I would assume the latter, but just want to have it clarified.
    Last edited by Ememew; 4th October 2012 at 2:56 AM.
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    I think it would be Pokemon centric since the main character is a Pokemon, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew View Post
    I'm not sure if this question might be a bit off-topic, so sorry if it doesn't help anything, but what would a trainer fic told from the pokemon's perspective count as: Trainer-fic or Pokemon-centric? I would assume the latter, but just want to have it clarified.
    After reading Dragonfree's idea for what he wanted for pokemon-centric, thats the ideal story he had in mind for when creating the category, what he'd call Pokemon POV.
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    It seems like I've got the most coherent argument from the against camp, and I'd like to think I've got a pretty unbiased opinion, seeing as I do not have, nor have I written, a pokemon centric fic, nor a mystery dungeon fic. So, whatever the result of this is, it has no bearing on me personally. So, I'll reiterate the points I've made so far. I begin with my view of the PMD genre/subgenre/what-have-you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Feralninja View Post
    The way I see this whole PMD situation is thus:
    There is a trainer-centric category, and a pokemon-centric category. The trainer-centric genre is very broad, and encompasses many different story types. The pokemon-centric does the same. Last year, the idea to have a journey fic category was vetoed because it fell under the heading of a trainer fic. A PMD fic is technically a pokemon-centric fic, and therefore falls under the umbrella. While it has become a large part of that genre in the past year, at least on these forums, it still is pokemon centric, and therefore belongs under the category.
    Then, I brought up the point that, to the best of my knowledge, a large amount of the pokemon-centric fics this year (I only saw two exceptions going back five pages in the archive and keep in mind this was a very brief sweep) are PMD centric, or at least in that universe. So, while people who have written pokemon centric fics, be they PMD or standard, will favor the separation of the categories. So, seeing as I pretty much just restated the entire quoted part, I'll bold the only bit that's still relevant...
    Quote Originally Posted by Feralninja View Post
    This is also a good point. A really quick sweep of the archive shows that there really aren't too many non-PMD pokemon fics this year. Now, if I understand correctly, PMD fics are very much like journey fics, which take a considerable amount of time to write. If this is the case, likely many of the fics eligible this year will also be eligible next year. It might be a good idea to see how many get nominated, and if they are a sizable block, consider the category for next year's awards.
    As JX said, these awards are constantly in a state of beta. We see how many fics we have this year that are PMD, and if a large number surface next year, then yeah, we implement a new category. But as it stands, I think we should take some time to see if this fad actually lasts.

    Dragonfree raises a good point in saying that most PMD fics are about a human who is transformed into a pokemon, but the story is told from the perspective of a pokemon, interacting with pokemon, in a world populated exclusively by pokemon. The general consensus among fic writers (that I have encountered) is that pokemon are intelligent creatures, at least on the threshold as the dogs we encounter in the real world, if not on the level of pigs, dolphins or chimpanzees, or in the cases of several fics (my own included) at or above human capacity. So, I state that in many pokemon centric fics, the pokemon are displayed as at least having some kind of sapience, and if aforementioned sapience is slightly exaggerated in the PMD fics, so be it.

    The fact remains, the category as it stands is fics told from a pokemon POV, and PMD fics are nothing if not told from a pokemon POV. I say no change is necessary.

    Now, before someone brings up the example of other spin-offs getting their own genres, I have a counter-argument for that too, at least in the case of Ranger and Conquest. A pokemon ranger fic would most certainly be a trainer fic, because it's a human commanding pokemon to accomplish tasks for the greater good. It focuses on a human and their exploits with pokemon, ergo, trainer fic. Conquest, same deal. If the fic focuses on a Warrior/Warlord and their journey (read: journey) with a linked pokemon or three, there you go, trainer fic. If it's about a pokemon who links with a warlord and travels with them, pokemon fic. It's pretty easy to figure out, guys. I haven't played any other spin-offs beside those three, so I can't vouch for the other non-main series games. If fics about them turn up (and I certainly haven't seen any) then we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

    (Now that I'm talking about Conquest fics, I think I'd really like to try one. Granted, I'm focusing on my original stuff now, but... grrr. Stay on topic.)

    The point that I'm trying to get at is that PMD fics fit very nicely under the umbrella of pokemon-centric fics. It's told from a pokemon POV, and that's the definition of that category. I'm pretty sure that's the baseline argument of the against camp, when you strip it down. So, I think that's pretty much all we who are against have to say, but if I overlooked anything, feel free to correct me.
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    To follow up with after DF's defense, I've got a few more points to add. I'll start with the “what-if” defense and expand off of that.

    Yes, that one. Quite frankly, I agree with DF that if any of the other games started having a growing popularity, then yes, by all means, they deserve to stay around which brings me to my argument. Say MD games were what Gamefreak actually started with then later followed up with what we know as the mainstream games they actually do. The only reason trainer fics is its own category is because of the amount of time and game development that allows us writers to expand on. If history was written as I mentioned early, then MD fics would be the mainstream popularity to write.

    Now I can sit here and conjecture what-ifs all day long, and they would hold very little relevancy; however, I am inclined to agree with JX that MD fics are quite frankly in a state of revolution and expansion. If I'm not mistaken, there are about five to seven MD fics that are showing progress in their making, meaning they're not just some spur-of-the-moment fic that is only posted for a prologue/chapter 1 then abandoned. We're talking serious writers. Quite frankly, I've checked over the completed fics, and I'm only aware of one completed MD fic which is Ysavvryl's. So maybe there have been spurts where MD fics were started but never continued, but right now, that's not the case.

    I'll return to trainer fics at this moment to point out that the only reason why it has its own section is because most, not all, but almost every human-centric story is along the lines of a trainer fic. That and the popularity to write them is abundant, ridiculously abundant. MD fics are on the verge to stepping over that underground writing section and into its own genre.

    Now, on more to my earlier post of trialing MD fics as its own award. Quite bluntly, there isn't a problem with it. So what if there is little to no non-MD poke fics. Like DF mentioned, and I agree with her intention of what poke-centric was meant for, a truly pokemon POV to me is just the average pokemon in some kind of adventure. Which, in thinking, I'd be happy to lump MD fics into a hybrid category because that is what it is.

    Now, I'm not saying that MD should have its own category, but the fact that it is right now classified as poke-centric isn't its best classification. Like I mentioned, a genre more akin to a hybrid category would be better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralninja
    Dragonfree raises a good point in saying that most PMD fics are about a human who is transformed into a pokemon, but the story is told from the perspective of a pokemon, interacting with pokemon, in a world populated exclusively by pokemon. The general consensus among fic writers (that I have encountered) is that pokemon are intelligent creatures, at least on the threshold as the dogs we encounter in the real world, if not on the level of pigs, dolphins or chimpanzees, or in the cases of several fics (my own included) at or above human capacity. So, I state that in many pokemon centric fics, the pokemon are displayed as at least having some kind of sapience, and if aforementioned sapience is slightly exaggerated in the PMD fics, so be it.
    I don't think you read my post very carefully, because my argument has nothing to do with whether or not the main character of Mystery Dungeon fics used to be a human, or whether Pokémon are sapient for that matter. My argument is, why is simply "told from the perspective of a Pokémon" a meaningful category for an award, any more than "told from the perspective of someone with blue eyes"? The reason I made the Pokémon-centric category in the first place was that what I really meant by Pokémon-centric was not the umbrella "anything from the perspective of a Pokémon" definition; it had to do with a set of shared themes, goals and ideas shared by the most common kind of Pokémon-centric story, which centers around the inhumanity of Pokémon and/or the relationship between Pokémon and humans. Mystery Dungeon stories do not center around the inhumanity of Pokémon or the relationship between Pokémon and humans: they're about Pokémon that live in a completely humanlike society but with no actual humans. They have nothing in common with the canon universe Pokémon POV "genre" other than the completely arbitrary, superficial fact that both of their main characters look like one of a particular set of 649 creatures. There is no more meaningful reason to lump them together into one award than to lump stories about characters with blue eyes together: sure, you can, but the point of genres and separate awards for them is to group like with like, not in some arbitrary terms but in terms of the broad themes they deal with and how they tackle them. Fandom-specific categories like "trainer fic" or "Mystery Dungeon fic" or "Pokémon POV" the way I originally intended it are considerably more narrowly defined than true genres such as drama, romance or horror, but they are the same kind of thing: the stories they group together share meaningful thematic qualities that make them more comparable with other stories within the same category than outside of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew
    I'm not sure if this question might be a bit off-topic, so sorry if it doesn't help anything, but what would a trainer fic told from the pokemon's perspective (such as diamondpearl876's Survival Project) count as: Trainer-fic or Pokemon-centric? I would assume the latter, but just want to have it clarified.
    I don't think Survival Project is a trainer fic at all; superficially it is about a trainer traveling to get badges with his Pokémon, but everything about how it approaches the subject revolves around the different characters of the Pokémon and how they view their very unusual trainer, training in general, and battling. While Sai is a very important character and central to the driving question of the plot, the main characters are the Pokémon and the plot is consistently approached from the Pokémon POV angle.
    Last edited by Dragonfree; 4th October 2012 at 2:05 AM.

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    That's what I thought. I just wanted to be sure. Thanks.
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    This literally took me a couple of hours to type up (probably because I'm tired), and holy crap, I was ninja'd a lot, haha. So, behind a cut it goes! It really only responds to Butler, so most likely, all of you had a more diplomatic approach to things.

    As in, don't mind me~!

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    Fine, we'll have the category.

    Now, let's hear all the other ideas that there apparently were? Don't worry, I won't have any opinion on anything this time, so don't worry. Let's get into it.

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    I believe I brought this up last year, and I can't remember if it was implemented or already used as a matter of principle, but here it is:

    For the fic moments awards, nominees in those categories should only be able to come from chapters posted in the past year. So, if a chapter was posted in November last year with a particularly good quote, it is not eligible for the best quote award, though a quote from March would be.

    Also, I was wondering, is there a cap on the amount of times a fic can be nominated for those categories? Like, a journey fic is going to have several good heartwrenching/warming moments, if the author knows their stuff, and a fic that's supposed to be a comedy, like Missingno Master.'s work will have many funny moments. So is there a limit to this, or is it strictly limited to how many times/moments are nominated?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JX Valentine
    I know that people like Knightfall are passionate and could very well contribute excellent points (especially because they have insight into the genre), but for whatever reason, they're shy about doing so right now beyond "PMD is totally something different." So the first problem is that I'd like to state for the record that I'm not the voice for your side; I'm just painting the targets on points so everyone else can be awesome people (and not shy).
    I think what you mentioned here about being shy is correct, I myself, unsure of how to respond would likely botch the argument because I'm not so great at wording things the way I want to be said, so providing an excuse/reason/point to prove why PMD fics should be it's own genre is really difficult for me and probably a few others.

    All I can say is something that was already said and I don't think people quoting other people and just leaving posts saying "This" is going to help anyone on either side win this argument and it would be better to say nothing at all. I'm not sure if I am making sense myself right now but I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say.

    In addition, the people who aren't writing PMD fics gain nothing from arguing why there should be a PMD category and won't speak up so it only seems the people who do care (The authors of PMD fics and the people interested in a fair discussion) are just complaining because there isn't a category for their story or just want to argue for the sake of arguing when that's simply not the case.

    I don't know what else to add other than I hope and pray that the category is created with the proper thought and reasoning behind it, being that they simply cannot be appropriately classified as anything else without treading treading 4 other genres as it stands now.

    Again I hope I didn't shoot this argument down because I didn't explain well enough, it's just that there is not much else to say beyond what has been said, or so I feel.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralninja View Post
    I believe I brought this up last year, and I can't remember if it was implemented or already used as a matter of principle, but here it is:

    For the fic moments awards, nominees in those categories should only be able to come from chapters posted in the past year. So, if a chapter was posted in November last year with a particularly good quote, it is not eligible for the best quote award, though a quote from March would be.
    I think we used this, but if we didn't, we should.

    Also, I was wondering, is there a cap on the amount of times a fic can be nominated for those categories? Like, a journey fic is going to have several good heartwrenching/warming moments, if the author knows their stuff, and a fic that's supposed to be a comedy, like Missingno Master.'s work will have many funny moments. So is there a limit to this, or is it strictly limited to how many times/moments are nominated?
    I think this warrants discussion.

    So what new genres would you guys like to see?

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    Well, after thinking about the latter point in the post above, does one "moment" per fic seem too stringent? I think that 1-3 might be our cap, lest we have a much-too saturated category.
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    I think two quotes should be the maximum, though I'm not sure how that part of the awards usually go. Is there usually an overflow from one fic? Or do people seem laid back about it anyways?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutaka View Post
    I think two quotes should be the maximum, though I'm not sure how that part of the awards usually go. Is there usually an overflow from one fic? Or do people seem laid back about it anyways?
    I don't think I remember any such problems before, but I do think that this will be a useful idea to implement, especially if we do decide to begin revising categories. Maybe it might be a useful thing to use in places other than scene categories.

    But yeah, two is a good number, I think? Yes/no?

    As for category revision, what did we have so far? Drama, and what else?

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    Two seems OK to me, but I've never done anything with the awards planning before this time.

    Would crossover fics (involving 2 or more fandoms) count as a category? Or are there even enough of them for it to matter? (Mostly asking out of curiosity.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ememew View Post
    Two seems OK to me, but I've never done anything with the awards planning before this time.
    Let's run with two for now.

    Would crossover fics (involving 2 or more fandoms) count as a category? Or are there even enough of them for it to matter? (Mostly asking out of curiosity.)
    I would say that crossover would be a defined genre itself. But, I can't fully answer your question of if there are enough of them. From what I've seen, there are only a couple, but I've not seen everything.

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    I'm assuming "Trainer Fics" is supposed to encompass a broad array of stories. I'm assuming that would cover stories that are just action-oriented, gym battles/championship-oriented, personal quest-oriented, etc. Am I right?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    I'm assuming "Trainer Fics" is supposed to encompass a broad array of stories. I'm assuming that would cover stories that are just action-oriented, gym battles/championship-oriented, personal quest-oriented, etc. Am I right?
    You are correct. Any fic that includes Trainers would be up for nomination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    I'm assuming "Trainer Fics" is supposed to encompass a broad array of stories. I'm assuming that would cover stories that are just action-oriented, gym battles/championship-oriented, personal quest-oriented, etc. Am I right?
    It would also count for fics that are shorter in length, like a one shot, but told from the POV of a trainer. The reason it's called trainer fic and not journey fic is because... it's like the square/rectangle deal. I think we can safely say that all (non-PMD) journey fics are trainer fics, but not all trainer fics are journey fics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralninja View Post
    I think we can safely say that all (non-PMD) journey fics are trainer fics, but not all trainer fics are journey fics.
    Vice-versa actually. All trainer fics are non-PMD journey fics, but not all non-PMD journey fics are trainer fics. It's entirely possible to have a journey fic that isn't about a trainer or a Pokémon in the PMD universe. (You could write one about a researcher, for example, depending on their reason for going on a journey. Not that I would have ever tried.) It's just that not that many people write a story like that... for whatever reason.

    But anyway, pretty much as Shadow Lucario said, the main requisite for having a trainer fic is that it needs to focus on a trainer. As a result, it really could be a lot of different kinds of story so long as in the end, it's about being a trainer on some level.

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    That seems really kind of...I dunno. Unbalanced, maybe? Because how many stories are going to be considered "Horror" or "Sci-Fi" or one of the other genres? Not that many. But a TON of stories that aren't really all that similar are going to get lumped together as "Trainer Fics".

    Why not separate that out in the sub-genre awards? Gym Challenge fics? Personal Quest/Adventure fics?


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    I want to extend an apology if I stepped on anyone's toes during the unfortunately intense argument over the Mystery Dungeon category. It wasn't my intent to cause as much controversy as I ended up causing, so for that, I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    That seems really kind of...I dunno. Unbalanced, maybe? Because how many stories are going to be considered "Horror" or "Sci-Fi" or one of the other genres? Not that many. But a TON of stories that aren't really all that similar are going to get lumped together as "Trainer Fics".

    Why not separate that out in the sub-genre awards? Gym Challenge fics? Personal Quest/Adventure fics?
    I think you'd be subdividing the pool into too many narrower categories. Best Trainer Fic is almost like an extra category, in a sense; you can have Horror or Sci-Fi or whichever other category covered by a Trainer fic. Conversely, being a Trainer fic does not necessarily preclude a story from qualifying for other categories as well. Genres aren't strict, you can 'blend' them without incident.

    That said, though, I'm working on putting together a list of genres so we can have a more in-depth discussion of the idea raised earlier for a revamp of the genre awards section, but I'm having a little trouble. Drama was one, so I'm thinking to add things like Comedy, Science Fiction, Horror, Tragedy, Romance and so on. I'm not confident in the things I'm picking out, though, so I would very much like to hear from others about the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    That seems really kind of...I dunno. Unbalanced, maybe? Because how many stories are going to be considered "Horror" or "Sci-Fi" or one of the other genres? Not that many. But a TON of stories that aren't really all that similar are going to get lumped together as "Trainer Fics".

    Why not separate that out in the sub-genre awards? Gym Challenge fics? Personal Quest/Adventure fics?
    It would be a little bit too much like splitting hairs. The furthest I think we could ever take this would be "Journey Fics" and then "Other Trainer Fics" (do note that I am not proposing these categories, merely saying that these are two of the most viable umbrellas).

    Though my journey fic does have many elements of a fantasy story (a growing awareness of magic, and several different magical systems pulled from my original fantasy, for example), I'd never codify it as such. So, some people who write a story that has aspects of sci fi or horror might feel that it falls more under a different category and be totally okay with it not being in the other genre category.
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  25. #75
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    Well, with a month left to go, I think this is what's left to do:

    -Status of "Best Crossover Fic" as a genre award?

    -Status of "Best Trainer Fic?" Keep it or divide it up?

    -Revision of genre list, ie: Drama, Comedy, Sci-Fi, Horror, Tragedy etc?

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