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Thread: The BW2 In-Game Tier thread!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw
    I disagree about the hidden hollows, it is simply not reliable enough because of the low capture rates
    Well I looked up the chances, and there's only a 20% chance that a pokemon will appear and there are at least 4 pokemon at every Grotto. That equates to a ~5% chance of finding what you're looking for, like Riolu. Then again, every 256 steps there's only a 5% chance that the Grotto regenerates so the process is much slower than a regular random encounter.

    So yes, you're probably right. No DW abilities bar Mincinno. I also think that N's previously released Darmanitan has Zen Mode, but Zen Mode sucks so it doesn't matter much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Snorlax View Post
    I agree with the available pre-E4 TM list in the op, maybe even with locations?
    I agree, the pre-E4 TM list sounds extremely useful, as does a location list.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    I dunno, adding locations would make the OP much too large imo.
    They are pretty useful... maybe if the pre-E4 TM list and location list were written out on a Google Doc, we could link to those lists from the thread?


    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Snorlax View Post
    What are we gonna do about hidden abilities? Will they be factored in regular analysis or will they be listed seperately with some notation?
    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    I'm skeptic about adding them, as the randomness factor in finding them is too large. I suppose Cincinno could be the sole option, because it is intergrated into the main plot.
    Pretty much this. It's sort of impractical to tier Hidden Grotto Pokemon imo since it's so difficult to find them (as shown by Aurawarrior's post) and these tiers are for ingame, where I doubt people are going to spend half an hour or even an hour (or more?) trying to get a Pokemon with a hidden ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    I'm gonna go with final form, since not all pokemon are available for capture in their base form like Drifblim(excluding Hidden Grottos).
    Yeah I agree with this, also since it allows us to tier Pokemon that evolve by trading separately, such as Conkeldurr and Gurdurr (because Conkeldurr might be High, but Gurdurr Low), etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Snorlax View Post
    I think there should be a format, it'll make it easier to edit the OP if you can just copypasta, people will still post incorrectly /:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    When it comes to the OP, I think we should follow the format, but when discussing and proposing tierings in the thread we can ignore the format if we wish. Next they'll be added to the OP in the agreed format.
    Which format have we got in mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw View Post
    I think we should have something similar to what smogon used. As well as a pre-e4 TM/move tutor locations. Because many pokes rely on TM's alone for their moveset (starmie for example)

        Spoiler:- smogon location list:
    That list is incomplete. For one, it's missing the Baltoy line as well as the Vulpix line and Corsola I believe, so we'll need to look through it to make sure it's accurate and fix it up, although the layout is great in that it tells us which Pokemon are available when.


    Also, have we decided on whether or not we're splitting up the Mid-tier into Upper- and Lower-Mid? iirc it seemed pretty even with as many people supporting the split of the Mid-tier as those against it; nonetheless my reasoning for supporting the Mid-tier being split is shown on the previous page.

  3. #28
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    Alright, it seems that we've come to a general agreement on everything save the Mid-Tier split up. Feel free to add something else on the topic, or just anything that think would make tiering much more simple.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    Alright, it seems that we've come to a general agreement on everything save the Mid-Tier split up. Feel free to add something else on the topic, or just anything that think would make tiering much more simple.
    And also we haven't worked out what we're adding to the OP, I think.

    Regarding the mid-tier split, as I said in previous posts I'm in favour of it being split into upper- and lower-mid due to the fact that 1) the smogon tiering process didn't split up Mid and they ended up with a very unbalanced tier and 2) if in the future we decide there's no need for the split, it's far easier to merge the upper- and lower-mid tiers than to split the mid tier into two if we find in the future we do need the split.

  5. #30
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    Let's get this started, shall we?

    Zorua
    Available right before Clay
    Grows like a rocket
    Gets Snarl right away
    High tier

    Magnemite
    Available right before Roxie
    Feeds on Roxie exp unless challenge mode vs Grimer
    Amazing typing
    Metal Sound/T-Wave + Electro Ball wrecks everything

    Top tier

    Oshawott
    Starter
    Does well vs Clay, but that's it
    Mediocre overall
    Low tier

    DW Mincinno
    Available after Elesa (?) (Can the hidden grotto be accessed prior to Elesa? I only tried after)
    Epic, just epic
    Amazing coverage and power
    High tier

    Gliscor won't be accurate because I traded Gligar over after beating Cheren.

    Also, regarding the missing first appearance locations: Vulpix is Abundant Shrine, Baltoy is Relic Castle, and Corsola is Segaiha City surfing/fishing idk. Also missing Bronzong, which is Abundant Shrine.
    Last edited by Vandslaux; 3rd October 2012 at 4:17 AM.


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  6. #31
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    ^ we're not tiering yet, since 1) there are still things to be discussed/agreed upon (listed in the posts above yours) and 2) a separate thread will be posted for the actual tiering:
    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    Well, kinda. This thread is more about me getting the opinion of the general public (you guys!) before publishing the thread.
    Your enthusiasm is great though, but we need to iron out the creases before we can tier. Soooo, any thoughts on my post two posts up? ^^;

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhanton View Post
    And also we haven't worked out what we're adding to the OP, I think.

    Regarding the mid-tier split, as I said in previous posts I'm in favour of it being split into upper- and lower-mid due to the fact that 1) the smogon tiering process didn't split up Mid and they ended up with a very unbalanced tier and 2) if in the future we decide there's no need for the split, it's far easier to merge the upper- and lower-mid tiers than to split the mid tier into two if we find in the future we do need the split.
    Ok, after some thought I agree with splitting tiers, it'll lessen the size of Mid and give us a bit more discussion.

    As for what's in the op, I think it should look a bit like this:

    Pokémon:
    Ability:
    Availability:
    Moves:
    Details:


    Maybe put the details in spoilers...

    I was also thinking that the person who first nominates the Pokemon for tiering should be the one to post the final product, after it has been discussed obvs, and have their details quoted in the OP analysis. This would be a little nod to the user, and it would save Steph some time.

    ^Click it!^

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    ^I'm kinda iffy on this, as there will inevitablly be times when a newb will suggest a tiering. And we all know how the newbs love listening to us.

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    OK. Next time I play through BW2, I'm using Growlithe/Magnemite/Vaporeon/Mamoswine/Electivire (trade over Electirizer or wait until I find it?)/Volcarona. Will post results.


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  10. #35
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    Say you breed a pokemon (such as Deino) and then trade it over to the game at the beginning so that you have it from the start. How will that be accounted for? Obviously in that case, when you can catch it won't be relavent in determining tier. But how else will that affect tier? Or are the tiers assuming you don't use trades so you have something at the beginning of the game?


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  11. #36
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    We're tiering assuming the games are self contained, which means no trading or whatnot. That should answer both of your questions.

  12. #37
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    I'm itching for this thread to start up, what else needs sorting?

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  13. #38
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    ^I'm kinda iffy on this, as there will inevitablly be times when a newb will suggest a tiering. And we all know how the newbs love listening to us.
    Chances are if a newb suggests a tiering it won't gain approval from others anyway, so I don't think this will be problem.

    Pokémon:
    Ability:
    Availability:
    Moves:
    Details:
    Looks good, apart from moves. Pokemon learn about 50-90ish moves each, and that would make the OP massive. We could just link them to the pokemon's pokedex entry on the main site.

    Also shall we recomend movesets for each pokemon by linking this with the Singles Rates thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  14. #39
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    I'm liking the format you posted, Joe, as well as the linking to the Serebii Dex as well as the singles rate thread (assuming there's a move set for the Pokemon); we can link to the appropriate post in the singles rate thread (either A-L or M-Z) and modify the URL to have it highlight the Pokemon in question, if that makes sense.

    Also, maybe we can add Stats to the format, since a Pokemon could have a huge movepool and be available early but have poor attacking stats or a poor speed which holds it back.

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    By self contained, do you also mean no trade evolutions? Obviously, this also means Leafeon/Glaceon are ineligible for tiering, as Pinwheel Forest and Twist Mountain are post game?


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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    We're tiering assuming the games are self contained, which means no trading or whatnot. That should answer both of your questions.
    So, does that mean that some pokemon won't be tiered since they can't be obtained in-game? (for example, the kanto starters won't be tiered since you can't get them in BW2)


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    Quote Originally Posted by x_vandslaux_x View Post
    By self contained, do you also mean no trade evolutions? Obviously, this also means Leafeon/Glaceon are ineligible for tiering, as Pinwheel Forest and Twist Mountain are post game?
    I would think things like Conkeldurr would be tiered since all you have to do is trade it (does the GTS trick for trade evolutions still exist? Iirc it could be used in DPPt), but Gurdurr would also have to be tiered for those who can't trade. As for Leafeon and Glaceon, I guess they would be untiered for the reason you stated above.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Nonsense View Post
    So, does that mean that some pokemon won't be tiered since they can't be obtained in-game? (for example, the kanto starters won't be tiered since you can't get them in BW2)
    Anything that can't be obtained before the post-game will not be tiered. So only the Pokemon in the BW2 Regional Dex will be tiered, with the exception of Pokemon like Jigglypuff and Yanma which are in the BW2 Regional Dex but are only available post-game.
    Last edited by Zhanton; 3rd October 2012 at 10:52 PM.

  18. #43
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    tbh I'd rather not link evey single Pokemon to the singles thread, simply because it'd be highly redundant as just about every other link will direct to the same post. Rather, I propose we just link to the singles thread in the op to save time and effort on my part.

    How anout the Moves part of the tiering only list the key moves each Pokemon learns? It'll filter out the unneccesary moves pretty decently imo. That being said, is there really any reason for anything but 'Description' when the Serebii Dex gives all the other info Nyway? I personally find this very redundant. I suppose you could highlight the key points and only use the dex entry for reference, but it's something to ponder imo.

    What do you guys think about linking to the Smogon tier for reference? I'd personally like to make this an independant project but it'd be nice reference. Thoughts?

    Also, when do you think we should post the actual tiering thread? I briefly discussed this with zhanton (who, btw, is probably the only reason this thread is still alive and has been a major help in general, ilu <3) and I've decided to postpone the tiering until a week after the US release of BW2. This'll give people enough time for a full playthrough, making more reliable theorymonning / testing. If you have any qualms on this, please say so.

    Finally, a quick question. Could anyone post the average level of an six-pokemon endgame team? It'd be crucial to tiering those late evolvers like Pawnaliard. Thanks in advance!

  19. #44
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    I wouldn't mind linking to Smogon.

    As for the moves, just list important ones, no need to list everything.

    A week after release should be fine, most people will be done, or close to it by then.

    I'm at the E4 in White ATM and I'm around lv 50-60 and doing decently.

    ^Click it!^

  20. #45
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    I don't think that it's a good idea to link to the smogon tier. It should be an independant project. We might come to different conclusions than they do and rank pokemon much differently.

    Usually the levels of my pokemon will be somewhere between 48 and 56. It really depends upon the team honestly.


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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Nonsense View Post
    I don't think that it's a good idea to link to the smogon tier. It should be an independant project. We might come to different conclusions than they do and rank pokemon much differently.

    Usually the levels of my pokemon will be somewhere between 48 and 56. It really depends upon the team honestly.
    I see what you mean about linking to Smogon. If we do it, what's stopping someone from copypasta-ing something from there? It's not like we'll be able to memorize all theirs teirings to keep this from happening, so I agree with General Nonsense. No point in doing it for reference since we'll have formats and such specifically for here. We don't need to end up discussing something Smogon has already published.

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  22. #47
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    Also agreeing with General Nonsense regarding linking to the Smogon Tiers.

    As for the average level of a team, in Normal Mode the Champion's Ace Pokemon is Lv 59, so I'm guessing people would have a level range of probably 55-60? Especially when you consider the fact that there's a free Lucky Egg in Celestial Tower.

    Aaaaand also I think posting it a week after the US release sounds like a good plan, as does just posting a few notable moves for each Pokemon.

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    Alright, I think I have just about everything sorted out. Feel free to discuss anything related to the tiering, as per usual.

    Now for nominating the certs to actually help me with the tiering. I've decided to use the approval system, just to see if it'll work. That bein said,

    I nominate zhanton and Grumpy Snorlax to be certified posters (FoldingScreen) [1/3]

    Everyone that's read this thread will know that zhanton has been a key member for this project. Despite being knee-deep in last-minute revision, he still manages to post on a daily basis, giving his opinion on matters and brining new topics to the table. Taking a look at his posts in general RMT shows that he is one of the better frequent raters in IGRMT.

    Joe... is Joe. Besides being the best mod to ever grace IGRMT, he's also a great theorymonner and manages to give his opinion on matters while sill being able to accept other's opinion, a trait that seems to be much rarer nowadays. Besdies, he's a mod and he can do whateer h wants with the OP so may as well, right?

    EDIT : What do you guys think about moving the tiering to the BW2 Discussion secrion of the forums? I'd probably have to get permission from the mods of said section, but we'd get more views, which leads to more ideas and whatnot. I can see why you'd want to keep it within IGRMT. So, thoughts?
    Last edited by Tsumiki; 5th October 2012 at 3:58 PM.

  24. #49
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    I'll second Zhanton and myself as certs [2/3]

    I'd also like to nominate Steph because it's her thread and she has the know-how and prior tiering experience [1/2]

    I dunno about moving to the BW2 section, mostly because I'm a power hungry, greedy mod and want this thread in my section thinking that the discussion that goes on there is less about analysis and more about general game questions and discussion.

    Maybe we could eventually move the completed tiers there, or at least link them, but I thing in-game tiering should stay in IGRMT.

    ^Click it!^

  25. #50
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    +1 to zhanton and grumpy snorlax as certs [3/3]

    Small question: will legendaries be tiered?

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