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Thread: "GRASS" the worst starter and possibly type??

  1. #251
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    In simple numbers,
    Water and Fire are surprisingly equal.
    Defensively,
    Fire has 3 weaknesses, but 4 resistances, which is good.
    Water has 2 weaknesses, but 3 resistances, which is just as balanced.

    Grass on the other hand has 5 weaknesses, and 4 resistances.
    Unofrtunately, nothing appropriate seems to be doable to improve it.

    Offensively,
    Fire is strong against 4 and bad against 4.
    Water is strong against 3 and bad against 3.
    Again both looking well.

    Grass though is good against 3, but bad against 7

    It really has the most weaknesses, and is resisted by the most types.

    I think it would not hurt if one of those 7 was not resisting it, perhaps Flying (meaning Gyarados, Gliscor & co would be weak to Grass then, not just their single quad weaknesses)

    But I strongly beleive it deserves being strong against another type.
    Obviously the ones resisting it are out of question. As are ones that have it bad enough (like Psy, Ice) and some just make no sense to make a relation to it (Fighting, Dark, Ghost, Normal). Which leaves exactly one, defensively great (meaning it can take another weakness), pretty elemental type: Electric.

    As for the reasoning, there is already an argument for it set in the type chart: Grass already resists Electric for some reason. So it wouldn't be that farfetch'd if it was also strong against it, as is the case with lots of "elemental" match-ups.


    What notable examples would be affected?

    Well since most Electric types are pure Electric... it would basically mean that they would have to fear more than just Ground (which is quite a luxury anyway when you really consider it). Electivire, Ampahros etc.. Oh and Lanturn & Wash Rotom would be the serious victims of such change.

    Personally I think it could work nicely if tried.

    What do you people think?

    Would
    Grass>Electric
    be a desired change?

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitja View Post
    But I strongly beleive it deserves being strong against another type.
    Obviously the ones resisting it are out of question. As are ones that have it bad enough (like Psy, Ice) and some just make no sense to make a relation to it (Fighting, Dark, Ghost, Normal). Which leaves exactly one, defensively great (meaning it can take another weakness), pretty elemental type: Electric.

    As for the reasoning, there is already an argument for it set in the type chart: Grass already resists Electric for some reason. So it wouldn't be that farfetch'd if it was also strong against it, as is the case with lots of "elemental" match-ups.


    What notable examples would be affected?

    Well since most Electric types are pure Electric... it would basically mean that they would have to fear more than just Ground (which is quite a luxury anyway when you really consider it). Electivire, Ampahros etc.. Oh and Lanturn & Wash Rotom would be the serious victims of such change.

    Personally I think it could work nicely if tried.

    What do you people think?

    Would
    Grass>Electric
    be a desired change?
    Well actually, lightning apparently helps grass and plants (indirectly of course otherwise it would cause a fire) which could explain grass's resistance to it. For the sake of giving it another advantage just to make it on more equal terms with fire and water, sure I guess grass can >electric. It is a lot more far fetched than it resisting electric though. What can grass, or even the tallest tree do against a bolt of lightning?
    Last edited by Poliwhirl'sMittens; 9th October 2012 at 11:57 PM.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by WingBlast View Post
    Sorry if this have been made before,but I would really appreciate an answer.

    "GRASS" is weak to 5 types!!!! ( Never understood why to POISON". It's resisted by 7 types and effective against only 3. ( And we all know the gimmick of water types using ice beam and electric types using signal beam).
    So, do u think that Grass is dwarfed by the other starters? or by the other types as well? what changes do u think the pokechart should undergo in order to balance grass? or do u think it is already usable and on bar with water and fire? Thanks
    Torterra isn't bad, it has ground typing which can help defeat fire types.

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  4. #254
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    Leech Seed deserves a mention, it's a great move that can drop the opponents health while gaining some back every turn, and its distribution isn't bad either!

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    The mechanics are not hypothetical, the mechanics that are currently installed says that no move is tied down to a certain Type. You are speaking as if in the future they change that mechanics. But they haven't.

    And no matter what Pokemon mechanics may stay the same. So unless they plan to change the mechanics in the future its fine to make such an assumption.
    Where's the evidence that the mechanics will stay the same way in the future?

    But you said that the Status ailments ARE part of the Types so I was going by what your logic stated.
    Never did I say that status ailments are part of a type. I just said that types had access to status ailments. To say that what I said means that status ailments are part of the types is erroneous.

    It makes sense because there is no rule saying that those hypothetical moves can't be made, as I've said before. Therefore it's logical to make such an assumption. So unless they changed that rule one cannot make it.
    It isn't logical to make assumptions about hypothetical moves when the question specifically asks for answers that aren't based on assumptions about hypothetical moves.

    As I said the moves and what they do are in no way connected to the Type. They could easily make Leech Seed, Giga Drain, Ingrain, Curse, Confuse Ray, Toxic a different Type or make a different type do the same thing. They are not just limited to that one type. The Types in itself are for dealing or resisting damage based on the opposing type, that's it.
    Why must hypothetical moves always be brought up? Whatever hypothetical moves that are thought of don't have any bearing on how good a type is now.

    It must be realized that a Flying-type Toxic equivalent, a Ground-type Leech Seed equivalent, or a Bug-type Curse variant don't mean anything, not only because such examples can always be brought up for the sole purpose of disproving the other person's argument, but because these moves have no relation to how good or bad a type is with the moves that each type has access to now.





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  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Where's the evidence that the mechanics will stay the same way in the future?
    That's what i'm saying, we have no evidence that the mechanic will stay the same, we can only go by what the mechanic we have now

    It seems we think differently, but the same as well. You think we should only go by what moves we have now and not use made-up moves(even if there is nothing saying they cant be made). While I on the other hand feel we should go by the mechanics we have now(even if there is nothing saying they cant change). I think we both have some great points but we really are getting no where with this lol we keep repeating the same things.

    Never did I say that status ailments are part of a type. I just said that types had access to status ailments. To say that what I said means that status ailments are part of the types is erroneous.
    You said "When comparing two types' "overall performance", that means comparing everything about them." While you listed examples of what you think makes up Types flaws in the same post


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  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    That's what i'm saying, we have no evidence that the mechanic will stay the same, we can only go by what the mechanic we have now

    It seems we think differently, but the same as well. You think we should only go by what moves we have now and not use made-up moves(even if there is nothing saying they cant be made). While I on the other hand feel we should go by the mechanics we have now(even if there is nothing saying they cant change). I think we both have some great points but we really are getting no where with this lol we keep repeating the same things.
    Perhaps we think the exact same way, but we use different things to back up what we think.

    But in any case, using hypothetical moves to back up an opinion isn't going by what the game has now.





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  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitja View Post
    In simple numbers,
    Water and Fire are surprisingly equal.
    Defensively,
    Fire has 3 weaknesses, but 4 resistances, which is good.
    Water has 2 weaknesses, but 3 resistances, which is just as balanced.

    Grass on the other hand has 5 weaknesses, and 4 resistances.
    Unofrtunately, nothing appropriate seems to be doable to improve it.

    Offensively,
    Fire is strong against 4 and bad against 4.
    Water is strong against 3 and bad against 3.
    Again both looking well.

    Grass though is good against 3, but bad against 7

    It really has the most weaknesses, and is resisted by the most types.

    I think it would not hurt if one of those 7 was not resisting it, perhaps Flying (meaning Gyarados, Gliscor & co would be weak to Grass then, not just their single quad weaknesses)

    But I strongly beleive it deserves being strong against another type.
    Obviously the ones resisting it are out of question. As are ones that have it bad enough (like Psy, Ice) and some just make no sense to make a relation to it (Fighting, Dark, Ghost, Normal). Which leaves exactly one, defensively great (meaning it can take another weakness), pretty elemental type: Electric.

    As for the reasoning, there is already an argument for it set in the type chart: Grass already resists Electric for some reason. So it wouldn't be that farfetch'd if it was also strong against it, as is the case with lots of "elemental" match-ups.


    What notable examples would be affected?

    Well since most Electric types are pure Electric... it would basically mean that they would have to fear more than just Ground (which is quite a luxury anyway when you really consider it). Electivire, Ampahros etc.. Oh and Lanturn & Wash Rotom would be the serious victims of such change.

    Personally I think it could work nicely if tried.

    What do you people think?

    Would
    Grass>Electric
    be a desired change?
    Sadly enough for the Grass type, it should be the other way around... electricity acts more like fire, therefore should be super-effective, or at least neutral against Grass.
    I was thinking maybe Grass being good against Fighting. Every type advantage doesn't have to have logic behind it.
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  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by BNator92 View Post
    I was thinking maybe Grass being good against Fighting. Every type advantage doesn't have to have logic behind it.
    Yeah, Grass could use some more type advantages, but making up one just out of the blue doesn't really seem like the best idea, from a flavor standpoint.





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  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing Star View Post
    Yeah, Grass could use some more type advantages, but making up one just out of the blue doesn't really seem like the best idea, from a flavor standpoint.
    It could work, though. Nintendo has changed typing mechanics in the past, but you're right, it most likely wouldn't be the best of ideas. I could imagine many fans being upset with the change.
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  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poliwhirl'sMittens View Post
    Well actually, lightning apparently helps grass and plants (indirectly of course otherwise it would cause a fire) which could explain grass's resistance to it. For the sake of giving it another advantage just to make it on more equal terms with fire and water, sure I guess grass can >electric. It is a lot more far fetched than it resisting electric though. What can grass, or even the tallest tree do against a bolt of lightning?
    Drain the Electric poke of its electricity and redirect it into the ground maybe?... :S

  12. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by BNator92 View Post
    It could work, though. Nintendo has changed typing mechanics in the past, but you're right, it most likely wouldn't be the best of ideas. I could imagine many fans being upset with the change.
    Gamefreak wouldn't care.

  13. #263
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    I may be biased but grass types really aren't that bad...sure offensively they can't hit hard and they do have a plethora of weakness BUT they are good at staying alive in battle especially with the sleep powders and leech seeds, they can be pretty darn annoying. Look at tangrowth, ferrothorn, venusaur, breloom, shaymin, and ludicolo...sure they aren't hard-hitting and they do have easy counters BUT if you don't have that specific counter, it they have the potential to walk all over you...My personal faves are sceptile and serperior...the former is a great revenge-killer and the later has the potential to be a potent sweepe...
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  14. #264
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    Uh, well... I usually have a grass type on my team. I loved my Lilligant on my dream team Black. I don't play as smartly as most players do, (I make sure the nature won't hinder my pokemon, that's about it). Meganium is one of my favorite pokemon, along with Whimscott and, of course, Lilligant. In fact, if I recall, Lilligant saved my butt against Elesa's Zebstrika...
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD17 View Post
    I may be biased but grass types really aren't that bad...sure offensively they can't hit hard and they do have a plethora of weakness BUT they are good at staying alive in battle especially with the sleep powders and leech seeds, they can be pretty darn annoying.
    I agree, and this is one reason I actually like grass types fairly well. Plus some of them are just pretty cool, like Serperior.
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  16. #266
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    Whimsicott is very versatile and annoying, Maractus is a great chlorophyll sweeper+spikes support, Cradily is a brutal wall(though it is rock too) and Serperior will be an amazing sweeper with contrary under its belt.Status moves like spore also belong to grass types.
    It's not necessarily all about type disadvantages though-it depends more on move combos and abilities sometimes-and grass types have plenty of these at their disposal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep View Post
    Well, the only really "strong" starter type is Water.

    Both Grass and Fire are not that good.
    And yet, one Grass Starter is OU (Venusaur), one fire starter is OU (Infernape), one fire starter is UBER (Blaziken) and not a single water type reached OU. (As far as I know, Swampert is currently the closes thing to an OU water starter.)


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    And yet, one Grass Starter is OU (Venusaur), one fire starter is OU (Infernape), one fire starter is UBER (Blaziken) and not a single water type reached OU. (As far as I know, Swampert is currently the closes thing to an OU water starter.)
    Swampert was OU until it's usefulness dropped it to UU but still a good mon regardless!

  19. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duranteater View Post
    Swampert was OU until it's usefulness dropped it to UU but still a good mon regardless!
    Sceptile is kinda useless :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    And yet, one Grass Starter is OU (Venusaur), one fire starter is OU (Infernape), one fire starter is UBER (Blaziken) and not a single water type reached OU. (As far as I know, Swampert is currently the closes thing to an OU water starter.)
    Both Swampert and Empoleon were OU in Generation IV.

    ...when the only Fire Starter in OU was Infernape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BritishWeavile View Post
    Sceptile is kinda useless :/
    That.....has nothing to do what I quoted MugoUrth about!

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    Sceptile has started to get fans with it's Aerobatica crap and stuff. I personally never used Sceptile. I like Grovyle better x)

    I have an issue with liking pre-evolutions over fully evolved Pokemon. *facepalms*

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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireBlueEyes7799 View Post
    I have an issue with liking pre-evolutions over fully evolved Pokemon. *facepalms*
    It is not only you, I pretty much prefer a lot of the mid-evolutions over the fully evolved ones.
    Specially when we are talking about starters.

    For example:

    Charmeleon > Charizard
    Ivysaur > Venusaur
    Bayleef > Meganium
    Grovyle > Sceptile
    Monferno > Infernape
    Dewott > Samurott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep View Post
    It is not only you, I pretty much prefer a lot of the mid-evolutions over the fully evolved ones.
    Specially when we are talking about starters.

    For example:

    Charmeleon > Charizard
    Ivysaur > Venusaur
    Bayleef > Meganium
    Grovyle > Sceptile
    Monferno > Infernape
    Dewott > Samurott
    *sends FR*

    I perfer Haunter > Gengar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireBlueEyes7799 View Post
    *sends FR*

    I perfer Haunter > Gengar.
    This. Haunter is much more likable than Gengar.
    I prefer Mime Jr. over Mr. Mime too.

    You know, this subject deserves a proper thread.

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