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Thread: Team Rocket Speculation V2

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by (P.O.K.E.M.O.N.) View Post
    Development = competent now?[/I]
    YES, because they trained for it. Look at their poses and the fact that Giovanni now has a milatry-style uniform on in their first BW scene.

    This isn't something that just happened; the TRio was clearly put through boot camp between DP's end and BW's beginning.

  2. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPierce View Post
    This isn't something that just happened; the TRio was clearly put through boot camp between DP's end and BW's beginning.
    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. This is not true at all.

    If you really want to believe that, then I guess Ash went to a mentally unstable boot camp between DP and BW.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPierce View Post
    OK, I found a translation for Jessie's line on a Japanese site, and it basically just amount to "That Pikachu truly is a very special Pokemon", with James saying "Yeah..."

    That's it. NOTHING about what Team Rocket may want to do. It's also spoken very softly and dramatically, like an end line rather than foreshadowing anything
    This is what was said at the end of the episode but as usual certain people jump to conclusions. Nothing about revert to their old selves or anything.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. This is not true at all.

    If you really want to believe that, then I guess Ash went to a mentally unstable boot camp between DP and BW.
    Hard to say how long between DP and BW, but the the Deerling in BW ep 2 shows his journey began in spring.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    The DP saga in general tried to do too many new things but kept too many old things (like Brock and TR) at the same time.
    Respectively disagree, I felt the DP saga tried no new things at all; everything was just elements from Johto and Hoenn with a new coat of paint on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haunter227 View Post
    If you really want to believe that, then I guess Ash went to a mentally unstable boot camp between DP and BW.
    No, Ash did NOTHING between DP and BW except live a peaceful life in Pallet Town. Being out of practice explains why his slip-ups in Unova.

    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    Winning Small Victories Instead of Losing Major Operations.
    Which happened in BW all the time; they ALWAYS win small victories before they lose their major operation they're building toward.

    Herein she found something that she became passionate about and the growth of her character from someone who tried to cheat to victory to someone who was actually a threat in the Contest Arena was one of the most realistic development curves ever in the show.
    Except....she really wasn't a threat. She defeated Kenny (the biggest loser Coordinator on the show) and some no-name characters offscreen. That's it.

    She couldn't beat Zoey, couldn't beat Dawn, couldn't beat a princess impersonating Dawn....James impersonating her actually beat Dawn when she couldn't!

    I was looking forward to seeing both of them grow stronger if they stayed another region.
    Apparently you didn't, since becoming stronger is exactly what happened to them in BW. They became stronger criminals.

    They Respected Ash and his Friends.
    That's never been unique to Sinnoh; they've always had grudging respect toward Ash and his friends.

    Seeing them not only actually be acknowledged by Giovanni but promoted was a huge victory to me because I felt they deserved it.
    Giovanni didn't do that out of ANY acknowledgement. That was all because of Matori; she flat-out said she went through their files and felt that, if given re-education, they'd be the perfect candidates for Giovanni's upcoming Unova mission. The TRio THINK it's because of Giovanni acknowledging their "achievements", but we see Matori say otherwise to Giovanni.

    Quote Originally Posted by kicksjedi9 View Post
    Throughout the DP saga, the trio showed how much they had come to respect Ash's methods as a trainer, and how much they themselves didn't agree with Paul's training methods and attitude, they were there rooting for Ash, and I can't say I ever remember that in past series.
    Um, try the 14th episode of the original Kanto series; with Ash's battle with Lt. Surge. Or in the Indigo League itself, when Ash faced that jerkwad magician.
    Last edited by AgentPierce; 5th October 2012 at 6:50 PM.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post

    I liked them because they went through periods of silliness and character growth. Seeing them not only actually be acknowledged by Giovanni but promoted was a huge victory to me because I felt they deserved it. If they had left the show right then and there I would've been satisfied. That would have been one of the best character departures in the series.
    Nothing they did in DP showed that they deserved to be promoted. That was the problem. If they left in DP and it ended with a promotion they didn't deserve, that would have been a terrible way for them to go out. The reason they got promoted was supposedly because Giovanni thought TRio took down Galactic and J (I think that was the reason) when in reality, they had no role in taking Galactic or J down. So if they left their show with a promotion they didn't deserve, it would have been a terrible way for them to leave. How would you like it if Ash told Scott he beat Brandon and Scott believed him, made him a Frontier Brain and Ash left the show? In BW, TRio proved they deserved their promotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    The reason they got promoted was supposedly because Giovanni thought TRio took down Galactic and J (I think that was the reason) when in reality, they had no role in taking Galactic or J down.
    No, he knew that was BS like their claims of taking down Team Aqua and Team Magma were. Again, it was his secretary's reccomendation that led him to promote the TRio.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPierce View Post
    No, he knew that was BS like their claims of taking down Team Aqua and Team Magma were. Again, it was his secretary's reccomendation that led him to promote the TRio.
    Oh, I see. I guess that's why the TRio thought Giovanni promoted them then. I still stay with my comment that nothing they did showed they deserved it in DP and if that had left at DP191, it would have been a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    Oh, I see. I guess that's why the TRio thought Giovanni promoted them then.
    Exactly. Matori called them and said "Get back to HQ, the Boss is giving you a promotion". They hung up the call and celebrated, assuming that the Boss heard about how "they defeated Hunter J and Team Galactic", and is promoting them for that. We then shift to Rocket HQ where Matori delivers the TRio's files to Giovanni's desk and tells him that she's looked through them and thinks that if he gives the Trio this chance, they'll be the perfect agents for the upcoming mission (sooo, Matori's got a degree in psychology, I guess?)

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    Oh yeah and An00bis, about Jessie in the contests, she was such a non entity and treated as such a joke that I had trouble rooting for her. I didn't care about Jessie's contest jounrey (Dawn's was much more interesting to follow) and considering that the writers didn't even care to show Jessie's final battle with Dawn shows the writers didn't care either.

  11. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPierce View Post
    No, Ash did NOTHING between DP and BW except live a peaceful life in Pallet Town. Being out of practice explains why his slip-ups in Unova.
    Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous and you know it.

    Team Rocket have had a personality change purely because the writers wanted to try something different. Could they have made it more believable with a boot camp excuse? Yes, but they didn't. With the transition from DP to BW, we are pushed to believe that TR simply changed no questions asked. Besides, there have been occasions when they acted like there old selves during BW.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    Oh yeah and An00bis, about Jessie in the contests, she was such a non entity and treated as such a joke that I had trouble rooting for her. I didn't care about Jessie's contest jounrey (Dawn's was much more interesting to follow) and considering that the writers didn't even care to show Jessie's final battle with Dawn shows the writers didn't care either.
    I just wanted to see buneary in an actual contest battle. The poor bunny hasn't had one since the Wallace cup. Come to think of it neither did Piplup but since the latter contests promoted mamoswine, my fav dawn pokemon even if the writers seem to dislike him I can let it slide.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    I just wanted to see buneary in an actual contest battle. The poor bunny hasn't had one since the Wallace cup. Come to think of it neither did Piplup but since the latter contests promoted mamoswine, my fav dawn pokemon even if the writers seem to dislike him I can let it slide.
    That is dumb logic. Why would they hate any of their creations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero of Ideals View Post
    That is dumb logic. Why would they hate any of their creations?
    Because they were forced to include it?

    Not saying he's right but it wouldn't be the first time a group of writers have been forced to include something they didn't want to

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    If they were gone for good Giovanni would have died and Zager would have declared TR to be finished.

    The writers wouldn't leave TR as a whole unresolved if Jessie/James/Meowth were written off forever. If this is the last saga for TR, I expect a true finale for them sometime in 2013.
    Idk, man, I doubt they would have killed Giovanni for real anyway. Can't they continue their business in Kanto anyway, off-screen. Well, of course, if Ash actually ever gets around going back to Kanto and spending some good amount of episodes there, then we might see them again, but other than that, I doubt we see TR again.

  16. #191
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    I don't know about Zager or Giovanni but I'm confident we will see Jessie, James & Meowth again. There to important to be written off without a proper ending

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    Quote Originally Posted by AceDetective View Post
    I don't know about Zager or Giovanni but I'm confident we will see Jessie, James & Meowth again. There to important to be written off without a proper ending
    I think AgentPierce has a point about TR having a special like Dawn and Brock did. The closing credits reminded me of "In Your Heart La La La" from DP when Dawn and Brock left the regular cast for good. I think TRio is officially off the regular cast now and although they will probably make cameos in future generatons, I think they will have their own special to wrap them up. In this special, we will likely see TRio, Giovanni, possibly Zager, and possibly all of TRio's old Pokemon that were left at Headquarters.

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    I think AgentPierce has a point about TR having a special like Dawn and Brock did. The closing credits reminded me of "In Your Heart La La La" from DP when Dawn and Brock left the regular cast for good. I think TRio is officially off the regular cast now and although they will probably make cameos in future generatons, I think they will have their own special to wrap them up. In this special, we will likely see TRio, Giovanni, possibly Zager, and possibly all of TRio's old Pokemon that were left at Headquarters.
    That does seem possible, not sure how much I'd want to see it though. It would probably be fun and a decent send off but I do want to see them interact with Ash one last time

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceDetective View Post
    That does seem possible, not sure how much I'd want to see it though. It would probably be fun and a decent send off but I do want to see them interact with Ash one last time
    I think Giovanni turning good and turning TR into a good organization and them helping Ash take down Plasma would be the best possible ending for them.

  20. #195
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    Which happened in BW all the time; they ALWAYS win small victories before they lose their major operation they're building toward.
    This is what bothers me about that. It's bad enough that they absolutely have to lose even though they're winning streak is supposenly better, but do we really have to devote two episodes to the idea every 20-some episodes? It was interesting in Nimbasa. It was tolerable the first time with the Kamis. Carracosta? Did that really need two episodes?

    Except....she really wasn't a threat.
    It's not about being a threat. It's about significantly improvement through determination and hard work. Something that the show wants to preach but comes up short on most of the time.

    To compare it's like teaching your child how to swim. Before they couldn't swim. Then they floated. Then they paddled. Now they're swimming laps around the pool. They're nowhere near the best or the fastest swimmer but you're still proud of them.

    Apparently you didn't, since becoming stronger is exactly what happened to them in BW. They became stronger criminals.
    They became better criminals, but they didn't become better characters.

    It looks like they took retooling to the extreme with Team Rocket.

    Giovanni didn't do that out of ANY acknowledgement
    That they were even acknowledged as agents was more then they got throughout Johto and Hoenn.

    How would you like it if Ash told Scott he beat Brandon and Scott believed him, made him a Frontier Brain and Ash left the show?
    Honestly? I would've loved that.

    Maybe it's just me but I love it when a character's story ends with closure. I'd rather them have some sort of ending or achieve something of merit then for them to wander from region to region doing the same ol' song and dance.

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    Honestly? I would've loved that.

    Maybe it's just me but I love it when a character's story ends with closure. I'd rather them have some sort of ending or achieve something of merit then for them to wander from region to region doing the same ol' song and dance.
    No, what I mean is that how would you like it if Ash didn't win the Battle Frontier but Scott gave him title of Frontier Brain. You are acting like TR really deserved their promotion in DP. What did TRio do in DP that proved that they should have been promoted? You basically said you would have liked it if their story ended with them getting a promotion that they didn't even deserve.

    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    This is what bothers me about that. It's bad enough that they absolutely have to lose even though they're winning streak is supposenly better, but do we really have to devote two episodes to the idea every 20-some episodes? It was interesting in Nimbasa. It was tolerable the first time with the Kamis. Carracosta? Did that really need two episodes?
    Yes, I think it did needed 2 episodes. So much happened in those 2 episodes that trying to squeeze it all in one episode would have been impossible and it would have felt way too rushed in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    It's not about being a threat. It's about significantly improvement through determination and hard work. Something that the show wants to preach but comes up short on most of the time.

    To compare it's like teaching your child how to swim. Before they couldn't swim. Then they floated. Then they paddled. Now they're swimming laps around the pool. They're nowhere near the best or the fastest swimmer but you're still proud of them.
    You must remember that two of her ribbons were won for her by other people. The Princess and James both gave her ribbons without her winning them. And Jessie was so hard to root for that her contest arc was just irritating for the most part because Jessie herself came off as a very self-centered, very selfish and a very mean person. It made the audience turn away from her and in fact, it made me want to see Jessie fail. If Jessie had won Top Coordinator like so many people who are fans of DP TRio wanted then all it would have done was have an even more negative effect on her. She didn't care about anything but her getting famous and bashed the people like Dawn and Zoey who were actually people who would make good role models to younger kids wanting to be a coordinator when they turn 10.



    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    They became better criminals, but they didn't become better characters.

    It looks like they took retooling to the extreme with Team Rocket.
    I don't think they turned into better characters in DP. They are villains and they are TR members so if BW turned characters who are supposed to be villains and supposed to be TR members into better villains and better TR members, then I would say yes they did become better characters in BW.
    Last edited by Pokemaniac24; 6th October 2012 at 1:47 AM.

  22. #197
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    No, what I mean is that how would you like it if Ash didn't win the Battle Frontier but Scott gave him title of Frontier Brain.
    Same answer. If Ash was being written out of the series then I wouldn't have been upset if he was offered the chance to become a Frontier Brain. Say if, for example, he beat everyone except Brandon despite giving it everything he's gone. Ash showed that he had potential long before he reached Brandon which is why Scott invited him to challenge in the first place. Scott probably thought Ash was good enough to be a Brain from the very beginning.

    As far as Team Rocket went they did successfully capture a Pokemon. Even if it was just once that Giovanni didn't want. For three main regions prior we didn't really get much compelling evidence that they were even fit to qualify for Team Rocket except they were " reasonably close " to being grunt material. Throughout Sinnoh they proved that they, in the very least, had the potential to be grunts.

    You must remember that two of her ribbons were won for her by other people.
    I addressed it in the first post, but berating Jessie for not earning all of her ribbons makes somewhat of a double standard since it took until Unova for Ash to get all eight of his Badges by winning like he should've. Even then there was some controversy over the 8th Gym Handicap match in his favor. That was the second badge he earned in a Handicap match the first being 3 on 1 against Whitney in the rematch.

    For the (official) record I think Badges / Ribbons that are given or gifted are perfectly fine as long as they're legitimate Badges / Ribbons. If, using another example, Ash won the Wallace Cup and decided to give the Ribbon to Dawn I would've been fine with that. I remember back during Dawn's losing slump there being speculation that she'd use the Ribbon that Joanna gave her to enter the Grand Festival.

    About Villains and Characters
    I think the easiest way to say it is like this.

    It's hard to believe that the characters in this episode are the same characters in this episode.

    This is what bothers me. For the greater part of their appearances Jessie, James, and Meowth do not even appear to be the same characters they have been for ten years. The change was so sudden, drastic, and dramatic that I'm not even sure why they used these characters for that role rather then create three completely new characters. They replaced virtually everyone else besides Ash and Pikachu so why not Team Rocket?

  23. #198
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    Let me look at this topic again. Has Team Rocket been reset? No. Not in my eyes. Their attitudes have changed and it took the writers long enough to establish a plot for Giovanni and for the orginazation after all these years instead of back in Johto instead of making those aweful fillers. Now people is sad to see them go? I was waiting for this day my entire life. It's not as though it felt as if JJM were even in this series at times.

    My ideal battle ever!

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    Default What will they do next?

    Well Giovonni and Dr. Zager left Unova after they're Tempest Mission failed and saying they're done with Unova. That doesn't mean they're also done in BW? Will they come back in the Filler Saga of BW for a Real Final Battle and maybe face Team Plasma. And Giovonni finally seems interested with Ash's Pikachu that he might let the TRio go after Ash and Co to bring back Pikachu and probably not let Ash go the Next Region until Team Rocket captures Ash and Pikachu for they're ultimate plan on the Pokémon World and this would be the real Final Battle that we've been hoping for to come to BW!
    What do you think?

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  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arceusgamer14 View Post
    Well Giovonni and Dr. Zager left Unova after they're Tempest Mission failed and saying they're done with Unova. That doesn't mean they're also done in BW? Will they come back in the Filler Saga of BW for a Real Final Battle and maybe face Team Plasma. And Giovonni finally seems interested with Ash's Pikachu that he might let the TRio go after Ash and Co to bring back Pikachu and probably not let Ash go the Next Region until Team Rocket captures Ash and Pikachu for they're ultimate plan on the Pokémon World and this would be the real Final Battle that we've been hoping for to come to BW!
    What do you think?
    Isnt there already a thread for this?

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