•Official B2/W2 In-Game Tiers• * READ THE OP *

[TotalPotato]

Not really. The general arguement against two-turn moves is that those two turns can be used better. Going back to Rock Wrecker Crustle, sure, Two Rock Slides equal to the amount of damage that a single Rock Wrecker but you have to consider that you have two turns to work with, and even at +2, Rock Wrecker isn't a guaranteed KO which will really screw with you which means you'll be taking two hits instead of the one you'd take by using Rock Slide. Crustle has all the tools it really needs in Rock Slide / Shell Smash / X-Scissor / Bulldoze or Return so there you go.

Wait, I'm confused. Why does Rock Slide only make you take one hit if you're using it twice? Because your opponent might flinch? I acknowledge that Rock Slide is also great on Crustle, but it depends on what you want to use Crustle for. A hit from Rock Slide after Shell Smash will KO pretty much anything that's weak to it, and you can potentially get a sweep going, but if you're at low HP after Shell Smash and you're facing a Pokémon that takes neutral damage from Rock, you're going to wish you had Rock Wrecker for the KO (and it usually will KO after Shell Smash). Also, Dig over Bulldoze, but I guess we'll always be at loggerheads on that one

I suppose Sawsbuck could take advantage of Giga Impact, given how it can use Horn Leech to make up for the damage taken through it's recharge turn. Stoutland, not so much.

Two Returns do more damage than one Giga Impact, so I don't really see the advantage there.

[amittal12]

Ferrothorn - Upper Middle Tier
Availability - Mid-Late(Chargestone Cave)
Notable Moves - Curse,Iron Head,Gyro Ball,Power Whip,Seed Bomb,Iron Defense,Bulldoze
Stats - Great Defense and Sp.Defense,Good Attack,Average HP,Bad Sp.Attack and Pathetic Speed.

+Good Defensive typing and stats.
+Iron Barbs is a great ability when combined with Rocky Helmet hurts a lot.
+It's already Pathetic Speed+Curse boosts means Gyro Ball will hit most of the opponents for high amount of damage.Power Whip is another solid move.
-Limited Movepool.
-Has to rely on the weak Bulldoze for coverage against Fire and Steel types.
-Not very useful in major battles sans Marlon.

Emolga - Lower Middle Tier
Availability - Mid Game(Route 16)
Notable Moves - Acrobatics,Volt Switch,Thunderbolt,Light Screen,Agility,Signal Beam,Roost
Stats - Good Speed.Average Attack and Sp.Attack.Below par HP,Defense and Sp.Defense.

+Makes for good hit and run with Good Speed and Volt Switch.
+Good against Skyla,Marlon and Marshall.
-Limited Movepool.
-Its Stats are average especially for end-game.
-Other Electric Pokemon like Eelektross,Galvantula,Jolteon and Ampharos have better all round stats.

[edonub]

This is ideal, but there are much more pokemon than active raters here, meaning we'll need 2-3 playthroughs each to be able to tier everything, and there are a lot of very unambiguous tierings (Magnezone, Delibird etc.) that don't need it. Plus, what kind of sad person would go through 40 hours of Liepard? *b-b-b-burn*
For more difficult tierings like Lilligant I think it'd help to cite experience, as nothing beats it imo. The only problem with it is a lot more subjective. If a player usually uses average or bad pokemon like Victreebel or Mightyena, then Lilligant will be one of the best pokemon they've ever owned. If someone normally uses pseudo-legends and legendaries, Lilligant just won't pull her weight.
It makes me wonder whether we should take this into account. But then again, we can't have tierings becoming 'this is relatively worse than everything in Low so it should be Bottom' since we also need to single out the pokemon and how it performs against the criteria in the OP.
And now my brain hurts. Damn you Lilligant.

I have done roughly 10 playthroughs of the game between this summer (let's not investigate my "methods" of playing the japanese version ) and now with the actual games. Tested almost everything barring the absolute crap (and some of those too). I have already expressed my opinion about Liligant several times. It's good, monograss doesn't hamper it at all. It's not about type coverage, it's about if the first poke in your opponent's team is a special attacker or not. If it is, you can go all the way to +6 barring crit and sweep the entire team no question. If it's physical and neutral, you can get to +1/2, nab a KO with giga drain while recovering your health back, and sweep the entire team without question. If it's physical, quad resists your Grass type move (or has very high spdef), and has a super effective hit, you might want to switch out. But heck, you don't put ANY Grass type against poison/flying. Even a super-effective hit without lack of STAB or a boosting move, could fail to KO and get you KOed in return.

And about two turns moves, it's not that hard. A single Rock Wrecker does the same damage as a Shell Smash followed by Rock Slide, only you're now set up to KO the rest of the enemy team. And Rock Slide has only 75 BP, most recharge moves have MUCH more valid alternatives (return, fire blast/flamethrower, etc).

[Tsumiki]

I..had a total mind**** on Crustle. That being said, if you're going for a sweep with Shell Smash / Rock Wrecker, that one turn of charging can potentially screw a *sweep up. So yeah, I still say Rock Slide > Rock Wrecker

[TotalPotato]

I..had a total mind**** on Crustle. That being said, if you're going for a sweep with Shell Smash / Rock Wrecker, that one turn of charging can potentially screw a *sweep up. So yeah, I still say Rock Slide > Rock Wrecker

Yeah, for sweeping teams, I'd definitely agree. By the time you get Rock Wrecker, there probably aren't many things that it would be better than Rock Slide for if you're attempting a sweep, looking at the Pokémon League's teams. If you're not trying to sweep, though, and you're using the Shift battle style, I think Rock Wrecker a better move. It depends on how you like to play.

[Aurath8]

[B]Ferrothorn - Upper Middle Tier
Availability - Mid-Late(Chargestone Cave)

Chargestone can be accessed before Clay. I'd say he's Midgame rather than Midlate.

I'd say Ferrothorn sits in Middle. Ferroseed really sucks. Even with those powerful Gyro Balls its stuck with an Atk of 50 until lvl 40. Add that he's going to be taking hits left and right and this thing will need a lot of babying. Once he evolves his defences become amazing but he's pretty much forced to go offensive unless you breed on Leech Seed(which you can't) and has a quite barren movepool beyond his STABs.


Also Emolga in Low for sure. Apart from a slightly earlier Acrobatics, it doesn't have much going for at all. 75/75 offences do not compensate for its frailty, especially as most pokemon begin reaching their final forms in the 30s.



Cofagrigus - Low-Middle Tier
Availability - Early-Mid (Relic Castle)
Notable Moves - Will-o-Wisp, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Toxic, Pain Split,
Stats - Low HP and Atk, Tremendous defence, great spdef. Good Spatk. Very Low speed.

- Description -

+Gets Will-o-Wisp early.
+Between Will-o-Wisp and its defence it can take on almost any physical attacker.
-Barren movepool. Especially lacking offensive coverage without Hidden Power.
-Has to rely on Pain Split to heal itself.
-Doesn't get access to boosting moves like Calm Mind/Nasty Plot until post-game.

Brilliant defences, but he really struggles in terms of coverage. He can stall opponents out well and STAB Shadow Ball of 95 Spatk can't be completely disissed.
I know he does get Rest, but he doesn't get Sleep Talk until Nacrene city. Its not too good unless he's already got a few Calm Mind boosts and can heal off most damage through Leftovers.



Mandibuzz - Low Tier
Availability - Early-Mid(Route 4)
Notable Moves - Toxic, Roost, Brave Bird, U-turn, Foul Play
Stats - Great HP and defences, decent speed, low offences

- Description -

+Has amazing defences for the point of the game where you get it.
+Does quite well in the lategame against the E4 thanks to Toxic/Roost, its defences and typing.
-While decent early on it has very little offensive presence throughout much of the midgame.
-Doesn't get defensive options like Toxic/Roost until lategame either, struggling until that point.
-Toxic/Roost isn't very efficient.


She's actually not too bad early on but quickly becomes useless until it gets Toxic in Seaside Cave. Foul Play sort of helps, but is really unreliable.
There's also a Nasty Plot set, but that doesn't work too well unless you get 2 boosts and Mandibuzz doesn't get any special moves until lvl 41.



Simisage - Middle Tier
Availability - Midgame (Lostlorn Forest)
Notable Moves - Seed Bomb, Shadow Claw, Crunch, Work Up, Rock Slide, Superpower, Energy Ball, Low Kick, Acrobatics
Stats - Great speed, good offences, average HP, low Defences.

- Description -

+Gets Seed Bomb upon capture.
+Can evolve immediately through the Leaf Stone in Lostlorn Forest.
+Wide movepool.
-Its offences aren't the highest meaning it will miss KOs in the lategame.
-Frailty is also exposed more later on.


While it is pretty awesome just after it evolves, it quickly deteriorates once everything else begins to reach its final form in the mid-late 30s. I am considering Upper-Middle since it does so well in soon after capture in the Nimbasa and Driftveil gyms.



I decided to compile a list of pokemon that are yet to be nominated for a tiering. Because I have far too much time on my hands.

In BW2 pokedex order:
.
Simisear
Simipour
Klinklang
Gothitelle
Reuniclus
Vespiquen
Pinsir
Zebstrika
Floatzel
.Escavalier
Accelgor
Amoongus
Claydol
Eelektross
Beheeyem
Drapion
Skarmory
Drifblim
Grumpig
.Pelipper
Lunatone
Solrock
Bisharp
Cobalion
Virizion
Mantine
Octillerry
Wailord
Altaria
.Dewgong
Throh
Sawk
Bouffalant

That's 43 pokemon left to do.
Could be a useful thing to add to the OP. *wink wink nudge nudge*

[Zhanton]

Mmmm tossing up between lower-mid and mid for Ferrothorn. It's typing helps it out with the remaining gyms but it's not amazing against the E4 or anything. Its movepool is pretty barren and its time as Ferroseed would be painful as well. I think Lower-mid suits him more. [1/3]

[1/3] Emolga in Low. It's got nice speed and it's absolutely adorable, but it really only stays relevant for about ten levels until other things start evolving; its frailty and poor offensive stats don't cut it for late-game.

Mmmm Cofagrigus is interesting. It doesn't get the moves in-game to do what it does best - stall - but yeah Shadow Ball would be pretty powerful. Hmmm, lower-mid seems fair. [1/3]

[1/3] Mandibuzz in Low. It just doesn't get the right moves to be any higher than that, and Weak Armor isn't a great ability since it lowers one of its better stats.

[1/3] Simisage in Mid. It's fast and has a wide movepool. The fact that it evolves pretty much straight away is also a plus.

[[GS]]

[2/3] for Mandibuzz in Low, her offensive abilities are seriously lacking, and there are far better flying types to choose from.

[2/3] for Ferrothorn in low-mid, he evolves rather late and Ferroseed is pretty weak. His movepool is sparse, as stated already, and he just doesn't have anything special enough to set him above other grass types ingame.

Sorry for being gone so long ^^'

Oh snap! 2000th post!! Woot

[TotalPotato]

I dunno about Ferrothorn. As soon as you get it, you can teach it Curse and Gyro Ball, and the damage you get from that is big. But then again, I only used it to evolve it for Pokédex completion purposes in Pokémon Black. It seemed pretty powerful then, though, even as a Ferroseed. Has anyone used one in-game?

[[GS]]

^ I did, and found it annoying. It's damage output is lacking, and having to set up Curse to do decent damage with a STAB attack is kind of silly. Also, it's not particularly useful in any of the gyms or the E4.

[Tsumiki]

Could be a useful thing to add to the OP. *wink wink nudge nudge*

I really don't see the point tbh. The Pokemon List does show you which Pokemon are(not) tiered and you should take a look before posting anyway.

[2/3] Low Emolga. [2/3] Middle Simisage. I won't cast a vote for anything else, I don't have the experience nor the time to do any serious theory morning ;.;

[amittal12]

I dunno about Ferrothorn. As soon as you get it, you can teach it Curse and Gyro Ball, and the damage you get from that is big. But then again, I only used it to evolve it for Pokédex completion purposes in Pokémon Black. It seemed pretty powerful then, though, even as a Ferroseed. Has anyone used one in-game?

I used one ingame and it was pretty good but that was in a Monotype Grass.

[azeem40]

IMO, Emboar doesn't need speed to be good. It gets excellent coverage for a Fighting type, which more than makes up for it.

[Zhanton]

Simipour - Upper-Middle Tier
Availability - Midgame (Lostlorn Forest)
Notable Moves - Scald, Surf, Acrobatics, Crunch, Shadow Claw, Work Up, Aqua Tail, Ice Punch, Low Kick, Superpower, Grass Knot, Rock Slide, Ice Beam, Dig
Stats - Great speed, good balanced offences, average HP, low Defences.

+ Huge movepool
+ Balanced offensive stats and good speed allow it to perform effectively as a mixed sweeper
+ Only Pokemon with access to Scald before Marlon
+ Evolves quickly
+ Good typing and movepool means it is useful for almost all of the remaining gyms
- Frailty becomes a problem late in the game
- Offenses are good, but often not good enough

Honestly Simipour is the same as Simisage, except better because of Ice Beam/Punch, Scald and a better typing, which is why I've put it one tier above the proposed tier for Simisage.

[TotalPotato]

I don't think Simipour is as good as that. Scald is not as big of a draw as you're making out, especially on such a frail Pokémon. You'd be better off using Surf for the extra power (and for exploring). It can go mixed, but that's only because its attacking stats are both the same, and I think this trait costs Simipour valuable power. It has a strong midgame because of that early evolution and some good moves, but it's just too weak later on to go above Middle in my opinion.

And Grass Knot is post-game only, so that shouldn't be up there.

[k_tribal]

I think Ampharos deserved to be in a higher tier than where she was assigned. In game they have a great support ability the usefulness of which is compounded by their bulk. While I concede that her natural STAB moves have much to be desired, she more than makes up for it with Discharge; I also disagree with the statement that she has a limited movepool. Ampharos has great coverage with Power Gem, Flash Cannon and Signal Beam. She also has Thunder Wave and can learn Toxic. Very very useful Poke.

[Aurath8]

Upper-Middle for Simipour [1/3]. It has a stronger STAB in Surf and with Ice Punch is useful against Skyla and Drayden along with Clay. It's a small difference but it means it stays relevant in the team for longer.

I think Ampharos deserved to be in a higher tier than where she was assigned. In game they have a great support ability the usefulness of which is compounded by their bulk. While I concede that her natural STAB moves have much to be desired, she more than makes up for it with Discharge; I also disagree with the statement that she has a limited movepool. Ampharos has great coverage with Power Gem, Flash Cannon and Signal Beam. She also has Thunder Wave and can learn Toxic. Very very useful Poke.

Including its STAB, those moves cover 9/17 types which is fairly mediocre for four different attacking moves. Only problem is a supereffective Power Gem is weaker than STAB Thunderbolt. That reduces it to only 7 types in the end.
Ampharos' bulk is good but not good enough to compensate for its Low speed. Its only real only pros imo is its great spatk and that its relatively early.

Anyway, revisions to the tiers will come at a later date, (hopefully January).

[Excitable Boy]

IMO, Emboar doesn't need speed to be good. It gets excellent coverage for a Fighting type, which more than makes up for it.

So, the fact that it gets hit before it attacks is irrelevant, because it can easily kill things with... Arm Thrust and Flame Charge?

I think Ampharos deserved to be in a higher tier than where she was assigned. In game they have a great support ability the usefulness of which is compounded by their bulk. While I concede that her natural STAB moves have much to be desired, she more than makes up for it with Discharge; I also disagree with the statement that she has a limited movepool. Ampharos has great coverage with Power Gem, Flash Cannon and Signal Beam. She also has Thunder Wave and can learn Toxic. Very very useful Poke.

Including its STAB, those moves cover 9/17 types which is fairly mediocre for four different attacking moves. Only problem is a supereffective Power Gem is weaker than STAB Thunderbolt. That reduces it to only 7 types in the end.
Ampharos' bulk is good but not good enough to compensate for its Low speed. Its only real only pros imo is its great spatk and that its relatively early.

I should also point out that its mid-game STAB, Electro Ball, is rather suckish, as it deals damage based off Ampharos's dump stat. Getting hit and then hitting back with a meh attack isn't exactly high tier material.

Also, why the hell would you run Electric move/Power Gem/Flash Cannon/Signal Beam on Ampharos? Never mind the fact that Flash Cannon is post-game, Power Gem is redundant with Electric move and Signal Beam (all you hit is Bug and Fire SE > neutral). Run Electric move/Signal Beam/Thunder Wave/filler (Confuse Ray, Cotton Guard, w/e) so you can actually use Ampharos's bulk.

[azeem40]

So, the fact that it gets hit before it attacks is irrelevant, because it can easily kill things with... Arm Thrust and Flame Charge?




I should also point out that its mid-game STAB, Electro Ball, is rather suckish, as it deals damage based off Ampharos's dump stat. Getting hit and then hitting back with a meh attack isn't exactly high tier material.

Also, why the hell would you run Electric move/Power Gem/Flash Cannon/Signal Beam on Ampharos? Never mind the fact that Flash Cannon is post-game, Power Gem is redundant with Electric move and Signal Beam (all you hit is Bug and Fire SE > neutral). Run Electric move/Signal Beam/Thunder Wave/filler (Confuse Ray, Cotton Guard, w/e) so you can actually use Ampharos's bulk.

It gets Hammer Arm as an Emboar. It has the bulk to take hits like a champ. I don't see your point.

[Excitable Boy]

It gets Hammer Arm as an Emboar. It has the bulk to take hits like a champ. I don't see your point.

It gets Hammer Arm as an Emboar.

Hammer Arm as an Emboar.

as an Emboar.

as an Emboar.

What are doing with it as Pignite?

[azeem40]

I am not even talking about Pignite. It should say that as a Pignite it has poor STAB.

[Excitable Boy]

I am not even talking about Pignite. It should say that as a Pignite it has poor STAB.

When you talk about one Pokemon, you talk about its entire line (unless it's something like Zebstrika).

These are the rules of in-game tiering.

[TotalPotato]

Upper-Middle for Simipour [1/3]. It has a stronger STAB in Surf and with Ice Punch is useful against Skyla and Drayden along with Clay. It's a small difference but it means it stays relevant in the team for longer.

I'd contest some of this. The only thing on Skyla's team that Ice Punch is super-effective against is Swoobat (even then, it's not much better than Surf). Surf will decimate Skarmory, but so will practically any unresisted special attack at that point in the game. Drayden's Druddigon has so much defence that you'd have to rely on Blizzard to take it out, Flygon is KOed, and I don't think Ice Punch has enough power for Haxorus. It's a mixed bag, but I don't see Simipour being massively useful in big battles. Great against Clay, though, like you said.

Middle tier at best, in my opinion. In case that wasn't a recognised nomination before, there you go.

[azeem40]

When you talk about one Pokemon, you talk about its entire line (unless it's something like Zebstrika).

These are the rules of in-game tiering.

I still don't think Speed is an issue for him.

[TotalPotato]

I should also point out that its mid-game STAB, Electro Ball, is rather suckish, as it deals damage based off Ampharos's dump stat. Getting hit and then hitting back with a meh attack isn't exactly high tier material.

Well, Electro Ball's minimum power is 60, so it's not all that bad. You're likely to Thunder Wave if you're slower anyway, so it'll be higher than that much of the time.