•Official B2/W2 In-Game Tiers• * READ THE OP *

[Zhanton]

Yay glad more people see that Lilligant is amazing. *waits for retiering*

@TotalPotato; personally I think moves like Fly, Dig, Bounce and Dive are fine because, since you're invulnerable for a turn, it really only takes a few extra seconds. I think the two turn moves to be avoided though are things like Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant (and other variants) since you'll be hit by the opponent twice while only dealing damage to them once.

Sorry I don't really have anything to add atm but I'll edit in a tiering if I get some time.

[EagleEye]

[1/3] Seviper for Low.

Volcarona - Middle
Avalability - Mid Game (Relic Castle)
Notable Moves - Quiver Dance, Signal Beam, Flamethrower, Silver Wind, Calm Mind, Psychic, Will-O-Wisp, Fire Blast, Giga Drain, Heat Wave, Roost
Stats - Great Sp. Att, High Speed and Sp. Def. Good Hp, Average Att. and Sp. Def.

+ Has some great Stats
+ Caught as a Volcarona at level 35.
+ Can get STAB Singal beam as soon as caught.
+ Very Strong late game.
- Weak Fire STAB until you get Flamethrower or Fire Blast.
- All good level up moves require high level.
- Relies on TM's or Move Tutors later in game for most moves.

I've never used this one in game before so if anyone else had I would like to know how well it does. I think it could get by ok with just signal beam for part of the game just because of it's great stats. It might be able to get quiver dance around the time you get to the E4 where he could do well. I also left a couple moves out that it learns at much higer levels then you would probaly ever get by the time you reach the E4.

[Aurath8]

Seviper for Low [2/3]. Slow frail and its offences fail to compensate.

Volcarona for Middle [1/3]. Its stuck with Signal Beam and Ember(and Roost I guess) until Lacunosa Town gives you Fire Blast, which is pretty terrible. No Quiver Dance until lvl 59 isn't good either, as you're likely to beat the E4 before then. It might also be worth mentioning it has a catch rate of 15, which rivals most legendaries.
But of course, once he gets all his moves he becomes one of the best pokemon in the game.

[Dragoniteftw]

@lilligant A mono-type pokemon with only one type of move can't really be justified pasted upper-middle unless your name is darmanitan (but even then he has EQ, superpower, rock slide etc). Setting up and locked into a single move seems pretty KO-bait to me when you meet something that resists you. Lilligant isn't gunna be making much impact on Iris, drayden, colress and skyla to name a few. It will also struggle to really 'sweep' anything due to set up+poor defences on top of grass only moves. Not to mention Grass doesn't suit BW2 at all.

Sleep powder is too hit-or-miss and besides thats 2 turns (assuming quiver dance) of setting up before you even get the KO. 'AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!'.jpg

[Excitable Boy]

I think the two turn moves to be avoided though are things like Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Frenzy Plant (and other variants) since you'll be hit by the opponent twice while only dealing damage to them once.

If you KO them with the move, though, you can switch out immediately after (provided that you're on Shift Mode, of course).

Thing is, most Pokemon have better things to be doing with the moveslot. The only Pokemon I'd ever really consider putting Giga Impact on would be Unfezant, because Return/Fly/Quick/Attack/Leer is just sad. Everything else either has a better STAB move or has coverage moves they could run instead.

@lilligant A mono-type pokemon with only one type of move can't really be justified pasted upper-middle unless your name is darmanitan (but even then he has EQ, superpower, rock slide etc). Setting up and locked into a single move seems pretty KO-bait to me when you meet something that resists you. Lilligant isn't gunna be making much impact on Iris, drayden, colress and skyla to name a few. It will also struggle to really 'sweep' anything due to set up+poor defences on top of grass only moves. Not to mention Grass doesn't suit BW2 at all.

The point is, you set up on things that would normally crush you (because Lilligant has the raw offensive stats to muscle through anything that doesn't resist her without needing to set-up), and then proceed to crush them into the ground using Giga Drain/Petal Dance. When your SpA and Speed stats are so goddamn high, resistances become laughable; Lilligant sweeps right through them. You named Colress as a fight Lilligant can't win, but Lilligant can if she needs to: most of his team is specially-based, lacks anything SE on her, and is slower than her, making it set-up bait even if you're stupid like me and forgot Sleep Powder. 1v1, Lilligant can set up on Skyla's Skarmory, too, and muscle through both it and her Swanna (Leech Seeding Skarm from the start gives both steady damage and decent healing). Meanwhile, Clay? Marlon? Lilligant sh*ts all over both of them. Ghetsis? Cofagrigus is set-up bait (though you will have to use Lilli to fight Kyurem initially, which is bad because Kyu probably just KOs even through QD boosts). Shauntal? Same deal. Caitlin? Musharna can't do jack to Lilligant.

Honestly, I can't help but notice that both here and on other forums, the people who have actually played with and tested Lilligant call it top-tier material, whereas the people who haven't just theorymon it to be Middish. I would highly advise at least playing with Lilli and using her instead of just basing your decision on "oh, it's pure Grass and doesn't have moves, not that great." There's so much more to it than that, and the way it just outright cheeses like six major bosses certainly puts it up there with the likes of Haxorus and Conkeldurr.

[Dragoniteftw]

To be honest, anything can be TOP-tier material if you level up 5 levels over the trainers pokemon and any pokemon can set up '2x' sword dances and win fights. But alot of this is based on in-game uses for major battles and coverage and lillys grass typing lets it down throughout the game. How is Skarmory 'set up bait'? It has 140 defence and resists grass (your only move) by 4x. Lets be honest lilligant has major flaws but also major strengths. For me its a upper-mid poke still because he has no coverage which is a wasted slot imo.

I get your point about 'theorymon' alot of this thread annoys me when people look at stats and just immediately tier it based on that without even playing through with it *ahem* jellicent *ahem*. Can we maybe get some sort of experience needed to tier a pokemon - atleast one person has to of used the said pokemon in a run through or something similar?

[Aurath8]

I get your point about 'theorymon' alot of this thread annoys me when people look at stats and just immediately tier it based on that without even playing through with it *ahem* jellicent *ahem*. Can we maybe get some sort of experience needed to tier a pokemon - atleast one person has to of used the said pokemon in a run through or something similar?

This is ideal, but there are much more pokemon than active raters here, meaning we'll need 2-3 playthroughs each to be able to tier everything, and there are a lot of very unambiguous tierings (Magnezone, Delibird etc.) that don't need it. Plus, what kind of sad person would go through 40 hours of Liepard? *b-b-b-burn*
For more difficult tierings like Lilligant I think it'd help to cite experience, as nothing beats it imo. The only problem with it is a lot more subjective. If a player usually uses average or bad pokemon like Victreebel or Mightyena, then Lilligant will be one of the best pokemon they've ever owned. If someone normally uses pseudo-legends and legendaries, Lilligant just won't pull her weight.
It makes me wonder whether we should take this into account. But then again, we can't have tierings becoming 'this is relatively worse than everything in Low so it should be Bottom' since we also need to single out the pokemon and how it performs against the criteria in the OP.
And now my brain hurts. Damn you Lilligant.

[Excitable Boy]

To be honest, anything can be TOP-tier material if you level up 5 levels over the trainers pokemon

I played with PistilWhip at the same level as my other five 'mons. I was underleveled, if anything, considering that I used it on Challenge Mode.

and any pokemon can set up '2x' sword dances and win fights.

Not if it can't take hits and not if it can't outspeed. Quiver Dance lets Lilli do both.

How is Skarmory 'set up bait'? It has 140 defence and resists grass (your only move) by 4x.

Because it is bait that you set up on. Skarm's Flying move (on Normal Mode, at least) is Air Cutter, which QD defends against and runs off of Skarm's weaker offensive stat. 4 Quiver Dances is 300% SpA, and after 5/6 turns of Leech Seed damage that's enough to KO. 140 Defense is irrelevant against a Pokemon using a special move.

Should you, ideally, be throwing Lilligant at Skyla? Hopefully not. The fact that you can do so and have a reasonable chance of winning anyway, however, is just proof of Lilligant's innate awesomeness. If we're penalizing Lilligant for sucking against Skyla, why isn't Braviary so penalized for sucking against Elesa? Why is Heracross not penalized for sucking against Skyla?

Can we maybe get some sort of experience needed to tier a pokemon - atleast one person has to of used the said pokemon in a run through or something similar?

I am that experience. As is zhanton. As is TotalPotato. All of us are arguing for it.

EDIT: @ Aurawarrior8: For reference, I'm using Lilligant on a team of Ampharos/Lucario/Adamant Unfezant/Darmanitan/Modest Excadrill/Timid Lilligant (not the traded one), and I'm doing so on Challenge Mode. I'd call Lilligant the 2nd MVP after Darmanitan.


Gliscor - Upper Middle [3/3] (Aurawarrior8, Dragoniteftw, a person)

I beat Iris with an unevolved Gligar (because I had no idea there was a free Razor Fang available using Waterfall). I'd call that Upper Middle, and I'd say Gliscor would be about the same (better stats and full strength Acrobatics balancing out Eviolite).

BTW, if there are any specific Pokemon you guys want tested, I'd be happy to give them a whirl to see how they do.

Well, I'd also say that Rock Wrecker is really good on Crustle, since it can Shell Smash when slower, outspeed on the next turn, KO and switch out immediately. Before you beat the game, Stone Edge is not an option, so Rock Wrecker is as good as two Rock Slides anyway. It doesn't learn the move until very late, though (Level 55).

You'd lose your Shell Smash boosts, though. Given that you'd likely take a pretty good hit after Smashing, if not being -at- 1 HP after doing so, it's a bit awkward if you want Crustle to do things later in the fight, and +2 Rock Slide is probably sufficient damage anyway. Still, I guess it's worth looking into, since Crustle's coverage options are rather lackluster and Crustle doesn't have to come back into the fight.

On second thought, I'd probably add Sawsbuck and maybe Stoutland to the list of things that should be using Giga Impact as well.

The Pokemon I've used list isn't as extensive as TP's, as I don't normally do multiple runs of the same game. On Gen V, the ones I've used enough to have good experience with them (as lines) are Tepig, Lillipup, Patrat, Pansage, Sandile, Tirtouga, Sigilyph, Cobalion, Oshawott, Magnemite, Growlithe, Espeon, Timburr, Gligar, Mareep, Riolu, Pidove, Darumaka, Drilbur, Petilil, and I think that's it. I've also got experience in past generations as well.

[TotalPotato]

If you KO them with the move, though, you can switch out immediately after (provided that you're on Shift Mode, of course).

Thing is, most Pokemon have better things to be doing with the moveslot. The only Pokemon I'd ever really consider putting Giga Impact on would be Unfezant, because Return/Fly/Quick/Attack/Leer is just sad. Everything else either has a better STAB move or has coverage moves they could run instead.

Well, I'd also say that Rock Wrecker is really good on Crustle, since it can Shell Smash when slower, outspeed on the next turn, KO and switch out immediately. Before you beat the game, Stone Edge is not an option, so Rock Wrecker is as good as two Rock Slides anyway. It doesn't learn the move until very late, though (Level 55).

Yeah, my piece on Alomomola was a bit too hasty. I'd forgotten just how late the tools to make it semi-useful came in Black 2 and White 2. Bottom is fine.

Hmm, I played the original Black a fair few times, so I can't remember exactly what I used with Lilligant. The Pokémon I've completed Black or Black 2 with so far are Serperior, Samurott, Emboar, Liepard, Watchog, Simipour, Musharna, Unfezant, Excadrill, Leavanny, Scolipede, Conkeldurr, Lilligant, Whimsicott, Krookodile, Darmanitan, Crustle, Cofagrigus, Gothitelle, Vanilluxe, Emolga, Galvantula, Beheeyem, Alomomola, Fraxure, Larvesta, Golurk, Pawniard, Bouffalant, Durant, Ampharos, Weezing, Sigilyph, Sawsbuck and Mienshao. I didn't use them all against the Elite Four, but I think I've used a wide enough range for my opinion to be credible.

[Tsumiki]

My god a lot has happened within the past few days. For reference, I've been busy preparing for finals and stuff so expect less posts / edits from me.

I've gone ahead and moved Lilligant to High Tier because it seems like the thing everyone argued for. That being said, I'd like everyone to avoid mentioning retiers if at all possible. I'd like to get a complete tiering done before doing any major editting.

Also, are the write-ups in the OP set in stone? Just skimming them, I'm seeing some questionable claims (Shadow Ball is good on Metagross, Roselia can't evolve until Opelucid), and some of the tierings look like they're more theorymon than practicemon (having used Conkeldurr, I would not rate it Top, that's fishizzle). For that matter, there doesn't appear to be any standard for what constitutes certain availability ratings; for example, Route 4 is labelled as everything from Early to Mid-Early to Midgame.

tbh the tierings atm are more placeholders than anything. The inconsistencies are mostly because there hasn't been an established criterias on lcation / moves / whatever else. Yes, this is a very sloppy system and it will eventually come to haunt me, but I honestly don't have the time to go through the 50+ tierings that have been accepted and fix every little nitbit.

Well, I'd also say that Rock Wrecker is really good on Crustle, since it can Shell Smash when slower, outspeed on the next turn, KO and switch out immediately. Before you beat the game, Stone Edge is not an option, so Rock Wrecker is as good as two Rock Slides anyway. It doesn't learn the move until very late, though (Level 55).

Not really. The general arguement against two-turn moves is that those two turns can be used better. Going back to Rock Wrecker Crustle, sure, Two Rock Slides equal to the amount of damage that a single Rock Wrecker but you have to consider that you have two turns to work with, and even at +2, Rock Wrecker isn't a guaranteed KO which will really screw with you which means you'll be taking two hits instead of the one you'd take by using Rock Slide. Crustle has all the tools it really needs in Rock Slide / Shell Smash / X-Scissor / Bulldoze or Return so there you go.

On second thought, I'd probably add Sawsbuck and maybe Stoutland to the list of things that should be using Giga Impact as well.

I suppose Sawsbuck could take advantage of Giga Impact, given how it can use Horn Leech to make up for the damage taken through it's recharge turn. Stoutland, not so much.

[TotalPotato]

Not really. The general arguement against two-turn moves is that those two turns can be used better. Going back to Rock Wrecker Crustle, sure, Two Rock Slides equal to the amount of damage that a single Rock Wrecker but you have to consider that you have two turns to work with, and even at +2, Rock Wrecker isn't a guaranteed KO which will really screw with you which means you'll be taking two hits instead of the one you'd take by using Rock Slide. Crustle has all the tools it really needs in Rock Slide / Shell Smash / X-Scissor / Bulldoze or Return so there you go.

Wait, I'm confused. Why does Rock Slide only make you take one hit if you're using it twice? Because your opponent might flinch? I acknowledge that Rock Slide is also great on Crustle, but it depends on what you want to use Crustle for. A hit from Rock Slide after Shell Smash will KO pretty much anything that's weak to it, and you can potentially get a sweep going, but if you're at low HP after Shell Smash and you're facing a Pokémon that takes neutral damage from Rock, you're going to wish you had Rock Wrecker for the KO (and it usually will KO after Shell Smash). Also, Dig over Bulldoze, but I guess we'll always be at loggerheads on that one

I suppose Sawsbuck could take advantage of Giga Impact, given how it can use Horn Leech to make up for the damage taken through it's recharge turn. Stoutland, not so much.

Two Returns do more damage than one Giga Impact, so I don't really see the advantage there.

[amittal12]

Ferrothorn - Upper Middle Tier
Availability - Mid-Late(Chargestone Cave)
Notable Moves - Curse,Iron Head,Gyro Ball,Power Whip,Seed Bomb,Iron Defense,Bulldoze
Stats - Great Defense and Sp.Defense,Good Attack,Average HP,Bad Sp.Attack and Pathetic Speed.

+Good Defensive typing and stats.
+Iron Barbs is a great ability when combined with Rocky Helmet hurts a lot.
+It's already Pathetic Speed+Curse boosts means Gyro Ball will hit most of the opponents for high amount of damage.Power Whip is another solid move.
-Limited Movepool.
-Has to rely on the weak Bulldoze for coverage against Fire and Steel types.
-Not very useful in major battles sans Marlon.

Emolga - Lower Middle Tier
Availability - Mid Game(Route 16)
Notable Moves - Acrobatics,Volt Switch,Thunderbolt,Light Screen,Agility,Signal Beam,Roost
Stats - Good Speed.Average Attack and Sp.Attack.Below par HP,Defense and Sp.Defense.

+Makes for good hit and run with Good Speed and Volt Switch.
+Good against Skyla,Marlon and Marshall.
-Limited Movepool.
-Its Stats are average especially for end-game.
-Other Electric Pokemon like Eelektross,Galvantula,Jolteon and Ampharos have better all round stats.

[edonub]

This is ideal, but there are much more pokemon than active raters here, meaning we'll need 2-3 playthroughs each to be able to tier everything, and there are a lot of very unambiguous tierings (Magnezone, Delibird etc.) that don't need it. Plus, what kind of sad person would go through 40 hours of Liepard? *b-b-b-burn*
For more difficult tierings like Lilligant I think it'd help to cite experience, as nothing beats it imo. The only problem with it is a lot more subjective. If a player usually uses average or bad pokemon like Victreebel or Mightyena, then Lilligant will be one of the best pokemon they've ever owned. If someone normally uses pseudo-legends and legendaries, Lilligant just won't pull her weight.
It makes me wonder whether we should take this into account. But then again, we can't have tierings becoming 'this is relatively worse than everything in Low so it should be Bottom' since we also need to single out the pokemon and how it performs against the criteria in the OP.
And now my brain hurts. Damn you Lilligant.

I have done roughly 10 playthroughs of the game between this summer (let's not investigate my "methods" of playing the japanese version ) and now with the actual games. Tested almost everything barring the absolute crap (and some of those too). I have already expressed my opinion about Liligant several times. It's good, monograss doesn't hamper it at all. It's not about type coverage, it's about if the first poke in your opponent's team is a special attacker or not. If it is, you can go all the way to +6 barring crit and sweep the entire team no question. If it's physical and neutral, you can get to +1/2, nab a KO with giga drain while recovering your health back, and sweep the entire team without question. If it's physical, quad resists your Grass type move (or has very high spdef), and has a super effective hit, you might want to switch out. But heck, you don't put ANY Grass type against poison/flying. Even a super-effective hit without lack of STAB or a boosting move, could fail to KO and get you KOed in return.

And about two turns moves, it's not that hard. A single Rock Wrecker does the same damage as a Shell Smash followed by Rock Slide, only you're now set up to KO the rest of the enemy team. And Rock Slide has only 75 BP, most recharge moves have MUCH more valid alternatives (return, fire blast/flamethrower, etc).

[Tsumiki]

I..had a total mind**** on Crustle. That being said, if you're going for a sweep with Shell Smash / Rock Wrecker, that one turn of charging can potentially screw a *sweep up. So yeah, I still say Rock Slide > Rock Wrecker

[TotalPotato]

I..had a total mind**** on Crustle. That being said, if you're going for a sweep with Shell Smash / Rock Wrecker, that one turn of charging can potentially screw a *sweep up. So yeah, I still say Rock Slide > Rock Wrecker

Yeah, for sweeping teams, I'd definitely agree. By the time you get Rock Wrecker, there probably aren't many things that it would be better than Rock Slide for if you're attempting a sweep, looking at the Pokémon League's teams. If you're not trying to sweep, though, and you're using the Shift battle style, I think Rock Wrecker a better move. It depends on how you like to play.

[Aurath8]

[B]Ferrothorn - Upper Middle Tier
Availability - Mid-Late(Chargestone Cave)

Chargestone can be accessed before Clay. I'd say he's Midgame rather than Midlate.

I'd say Ferrothorn sits in Middle. Ferroseed really sucks. Even with those powerful Gyro Balls its stuck with an Atk of 50 until lvl 40. Add that he's going to be taking hits left and right and this thing will need a lot of babying. Once he evolves his defences become amazing but he's pretty much forced to go offensive unless you breed on Leech Seed(which you can't) and has a quite barren movepool beyond his STABs.


Also Emolga in Low for sure. Apart from a slightly earlier Acrobatics, it doesn't have much going for at all. 75/75 offences do not compensate for its frailty, especially as most pokemon begin reaching their final forms in the 30s.



Cofagrigus - Low-Middle Tier
Availability - Early-Mid (Relic Castle)
Notable Moves - Will-o-Wisp, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Toxic, Pain Split,
Stats - Low HP and Atk, Tremendous defence, great spdef. Good Spatk. Very Low speed.

- Description -

+Gets Will-o-Wisp early.
+Between Will-o-Wisp and its defence it can take on almost any physical attacker.
-Barren movepool. Especially lacking offensive coverage without Hidden Power.
-Has to rely on Pain Split to heal itself.
-Doesn't get access to boosting moves like Calm Mind/Nasty Plot until post-game.

Brilliant defences, but he really struggles in terms of coverage. He can stall opponents out well and STAB Shadow Ball of 95 Spatk can't be completely disissed.
I know he does get Rest, but he doesn't get Sleep Talk until Nacrene city. Its not too good unless he's already got a few Calm Mind boosts and can heal off most damage through Leftovers.



Mandibuzz - Low Tier
Availability - Early-Mid(Route 4)
Notable Moves - Toxic, Roost, Brave Bird, U-turn, Foul Play
Stats - Great HP and defences, decent speed, low offences

- Description -

+Has amazing defences for the point of the game where you get it.
+Does quite well in the lategame against the E4 thanks to Toxic/Roost, its defences and typing.
-While decent early on it has very little offensive presence throughout much of the midgame.
-Doesn't get defensive options like Toxic/Roost until lategame either, struggling until that point.
-Toxic/Roost isn't very efficient.


She's actually not too bad early on but quickly becomes useless until it gets Toxic in Seaside Cave. Foul Play sort of helps, but is really unreliable.
There's also a Nasty Plot set, but that doesn't work too well unless you get 2 boosts and Mandibuzz doesn't get any special moves until lvl 41.



Simisage - Middle Tier
Availability - Midgame (Lostlorn Forest)
Notable Moves - Seed Bomb, Shadow Claw, Crunch, Work Up, Rock Slide, Superpower, Energy Ball, Low Kick, Acrobatics
Stats - Great speed, good offences, average HP, low Defences.

- Description -

+Gets Seed Bomb upon capture.
+Can evolve immediately through the Leaf Stone in Lostlorn Forest.
+Wide movepool.
-Its offences aren't the highest meaning it will miss KOs in the lategame.
-Frailty is also exposed more later on.


While it is pretty awesome just after it evolves, it quickly deteriorates once everything else begins to reach its final form in the mid-late 30s. I am considering Upper-Middle since it does so well in soon after capture in the Nimbasa and Driftveil gyms.



I decided to compile a list of pokemon that are yet to be nominated for a tiering. Because I have far too much time on my hands.

In BW2 pokedex order:
.
Simisear
Simipour
Klinklang
Gothitelle
Reuniclus
Vespiquen
Pinsir
Zebstrika
Floatzel
.Escavalier
Accelgor
Amoongus
Claydol
Eelektross
Beheeyem
Drapion
Skarmory
Drifblim
Grumpig
.Pelipper
Lunatone
Solrock
Bisharp
Cobalion
Virizion
Mantine
Octillerry
Wailord
Altaria
.Dewgong
Throh
Sawk
Bouffalant

That's 43 pokemon left to do.
Could be a useful thing to add to the OP. *wink wink nudge nudge*

[Zhanton]

Mmmm tossing up between lower-mid and mid for Ferrothorn. It's typing helps it out with the remaining gyms but it's not amazing against the E4 or anything. Its movepool is pretty barren and its time as Ferroseed would be painful as well. I think Lower-mid suits him more. [1/3]

[1/3] Emolga in Low. It's got nice speed and it's absolutely adorable, but it really only stays relevant for about ten levels until other things start evolving; its frailty and poor offensive stats don't cut it for late-game.

Mmmm Cofagrigus is interesting. It doesn't get the moves in-game to do what it does best - stall - but yeah Shadow Ball would be pretty powerful. Hmmm, lower-mid seems fair. [1/3]

[1/3] Mandibuzz in Low. It just doesn't get the right moves to be any higher than that, and Weak Armor isn't a great ability since it lowers one of its better stats.

[1/3] Simisage in Mid. It's fast and has a wide movepool. The fact that it evolves pretty much straight away is also a plus.

[[GS]]

[2/3] for Mandibuzz in Low, her offensive abilities are seriously lacking, and there are far better flying types to choose from.

[2/3] for Ferrothorn in low-mid, he evolves rather late and Ferroseed is pretty weak. His movepool is sparse, as stated already, and he just doesn't have anything special enough to set him above other grass types ingame.

Sorry for being gone so long ^^'

Oh snap! 2000th post!! Woot

[TotalPotato]

I dunno about Ferrothorn. As soon as you get it, you can teach it Curse and Gyro Ball, and the damage you get from that is big. But then again, I only used it to evolve it for Pokédex completion purposes in Pokémon Black. It seemed pretty powerful then, though, even as a Ferroseed. Has anyone used one in-game?

[[GS]]

^ I did, and found it annoying. It's damage output is lacking, and having to set up Curse to do decent damage with a STAB attack is kind of silly. Also, it's not particularly useful in any of the gyms or the E4.