Hmm, you make a good point. Middle looks like the best option.
Pokemon is fun!
Hmm, you make a good point. Middle looks like the best option.
In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?
- TI, Ready For Whatever
Paper Trail.
Gogurt is a Pokémon
Heck, while I still have these Reuniclus tabs open, I may as well do a write-up.
Reuniclus - Middle
Availability - Mid-game (Route 5/16)
Notable Moves - Psyshock, Pain Split, Psychic, Reflect, Light Screen, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Signal Beam
Stats - Mediocre HP (as Solosis/Duosion)/Awe-inspiring HP (as Reuniclus), worthless Attack, mediocre Defenses, huge Special Attack, terribad Speed
+ Hits destructively hard with STAB moves; neutral hits are devastating
+ Has good bulk as Reuniclus
+ Can skip crap stage by catching at Strange House or Route 9
- Not particularly noteworthy against bosses not named Marshal
- Both slow and frail as Solosis/Duosion, making it difficult to use mid-game
- Has minimal coverage, and it can't touch Steel-types
That's about it, I think. I know that under stats, I separated Reuniclus's HP from that of its pre-evos, but it's a pretty big distinction; you're stuck with the pre-evos for half of its existence if you pick it up at Route 5/16, and the difference is massive - base 65 versus base 110, a boost of an average of 37 points upon evolution by my calculations.
And awe-inspiring is a great adjective.
Jodie Foster held two pair
Bach had three of a kind
Gandhi said, "With my full house,
I will blow your mind!"
Originally Posted by jrs
Soul Trainer
I think we've gone too soft on ratings (OR we started too hard). Cobalion High and Virizion Upper-Middle doesn't make sense with Terrakion being obviously the superior choice: 129 att/108 speed and nearly unresisted dual STAB with swords dance and solid bulk overall (both Virizion and Cobalion have either bad defense or special defense, while Terrakion has special attack as its lowest stat), yet it sits on the Middle tier. Anyway, I would go with Middle for Cobalion [1/3] (sure it's good, but if you want a Fighting/Steel poke you can catch a Riolu at the very beginning of the game with an arguably better movepool and offensive stats, that's a HUGE inferiority complex to overcome), and Middle for Virizion [1/3] because of worse typing and moveset options, but it's still unique with solid stats and serves pretty much the same role as Cobalion. They've got pretty much the same amount of pro's and con's. Sure Cobalion's typing might look better for the elite four but then you will notice how dealing with Chauntal which you should "resist" is pretty hard (Chandelure, Jellicent, they actually resist YOU and can hit you hard), the only physical Elite 4 actually hits you for SE damage (Marshall) negating your supposed "physical bulk" and the champion and the psychic Elite 4 has plenty of coverage moves to deal with both grass/ and steel/. so yeah, better typing but not really.
Terrakion should definitely go Upper-Middle when/if we do some retiering. It's just too good and has an awesome offensive typing, so finding it lategame is not that big of an issue.
Reuniclus middle [1/3], the rating sums up my opinion about it.
Mamoswine Lower Middle [1/3], it's found waaaaaay too late. You needed an Ice type before for Drayden, and between Giant Chasm and the Elite 4 Champion there's TM13. Lower Middle only because it's bulky, reasonably fast and gets Earthquake. But it's not that great of an option to fit in your team this late in my opinion, with pokes like Krookodile and Excadrill being around (and available much eariler).
Anyway:
Lunatone - Bottom
Availability - Mid-late game (route 13)
Notable Moves - Psychic, Rock Polish, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Earth Power, Charge Beam, Cosmic Power, Signal Beam
Stats - Good Special Attack, decent Special defense, mediocre HP, Defense and Speed. Low Attack.
+ Low speed kind of compensated by Rock polish
+ Good ability turning one of your weaknesses into an immunity
+ Just enough moves to make a decent offensive set
- Lots and lots of weaknesses to pretty much everything you face lategame: Water, Steel, Bug, Dark, Ghost... (Being neutral to Fighting with bad defense doesn't help with Marshall either)
- Requires Rock Polish to be of any use, not enough bulk to afford being slow. Lacks raw power to oneshot pretty much anything not weak to Psychic
- Mediocre stats considering how late you find it
- Lacks STAB special Rock move (come on GF, frickin Power Gem to the Gigalith line and not to this?)
Solrock - Bottom
Availability - mid-late game (route 13)
Notable Moves - Stone Edge, Rock Polish, Rock Slide, Zen Headbutt, Explosion, Acrobatics, Return, Cosmic Power
Stats - Good Attack and Defense, mediocre HP, Special Defense and Speed, low Special Attack
+ Low speed kind of compensated by Rock polish
+ Good ability turning one of your weaknesses into an immunity
+ Just enough moves to make a decent offensive set
- Lots and lots of weaknesses to pretty much everything you face lategame: Water, Steel, Bug, Dark, Ghost... Will not live any strong special hit regardless.
- Requires Rock Polish to be of any use, not enough bulk to afford being slow. Lacks raw power to oneshot pretty much anything not weak to Psychic/Rock
- Mediocre stats considering how late you find it
- Unlike Lunatone, it gets dual STAB, but all its options are not 100% reliable
Both would have been decent options, if you could catch them as early as it was in R/S/E. Sadly it's not the case, they have subpar stats and pretty much everything you find around at this point (Heracross, Tangela, etc.) is flat out better. Can't see any reason why one should use them, at all. Tried them both, they're both disappointing.
Last edited by edonub; 4th December 2012 at 3:14 AM.
Gogurt is a Pokémon
Solrock - Bottom [1/3] (Excitable Boy)
Lunatone - Bottom [1/3] (Excitable Boy)
agreement is agreeable
Different raters have had different opinions, either favorably theorymoning or unfavorably theorymoning. It's both, really.
I was under the impression that we were tiering each Pokemon based on its own individual merits, and that Pokemon weren't penalized for having a similar role to another 'mon. I agree with you that Terrakion shouldn't be Middle, though, and I didn't put it there.
/Steel-typing isn't so much for bosses as it is for mooks. Most of them don't carry coverage, meaning there's quite a few things that Cobalion walls more comfortably than Virizion can, which means it can set up an SD better to overcome its offensive deficiencies and still have health to spare, or even just 2HKO with Iron Head/Sacred Sword and eat the attack that way. More mooks, especially Plasma, are more physically inclined, which is where that comes in.
Agreement is agreeable, though tbh I'd personally retier like 20% of the list.
Jodie Foster held two pair
Bach had three of a kind
Gandhi said, "With my full house,
I will blow your mind!"
Pokemon is fun!
IMO, even though it is found late game, the sheer power of its attacks and coverage and typing should put it in High.
In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?
- TI, Ready For Whatever
Paper Trail.
Petal Dance
Re: Questionable Tiers: Basically everythin that was said between edonub and Excitable Boy are valid points. Something else worth mentioning is that most of the Earlier Pokemon Tiered didn't have other Pokemon within the same tier to be compared with. This has caused some well, questionable tierings. All will hopefully be fixed at 2.0 (which I know I keep pointing to which may come off as annoying ^^;
Solrock and Lunatone Bottom [2/3]; there's really nothing else to be said about these.*
Middle Reuniclis sounds fair enough [2/3]
I'm not sure that Cobalion is good enough to warrant being a tier higher. Virizion also has the Marlon battle as it's been mentioned, and Virizion can also plow through Half of Shautel's team, which Cobalion can't take credit for. I'm going to say [1/3] Upper Middle for both of them as of now, but I'll probably end up changing my votes some time in the future if I spend more time pondering on it.
Also [3/3] Low Throh
Soul Trainer
Even when it comes to dealing with mooks, Giga Drain gives Virizion reliable HP recovery, so it works pretty damn well. Grass/fighting/rock has less neutral coverage but more super-effective hits than steel/fighting/rock.
What I meant anyway with the terrakion thing, is that something should be available relatively early to be considered high/top tier, proving itself useful for a good chunk of the adventure. Else, it would be Top for Terrakion and High for Cobalion/Virizion no question asked. I think that's the point you're missing.
le quant-ŕ-soi
Yeah I'm definitely not feeling Middle for Reuniclus, especially given Gothitelle is Lower-mid. Reuniclus is actually less bulky than Gothitelle (110/75/85 compared to 70/95/110), and since Reuniclus is far slower than Gothitelle (30 compared to 65), it's going to have to take far more hits. I'm not sure how Reuniclus can be a tier above Gothitelle just for having higher SpA and access to a recovery move, so [1/3] lower-mid for Reuniclus.
[3/3] bottom for Solrock and Lunatone, though.
Xerneas, the Midgard Pokemon. Xerneas's branch-like horns are reminiscent of those
of the tree it guards. Its mighty horns contain jewels of dazzling colours. It chomps at
upper branches by craning its neck toward the sky. Xerneas protects the horizontal world.
credit // IGRMT Singles Rate Thread // BW2 Ingame Tiers // random text etc etc
Petal Dance
Absol - Middle Tier
Avalability - Mid Late (Route 13)
Notable Moves - Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Swords Dance, Superpower, X-Scissor, Stone Edge, Psycho Cut, Zen Headbutt
Stats - Fantastic Atk. Mediocre everywhere else
+ Sucker Punch is an amazing move. STABed Priority with 80BP? Yes please!
+ Movepool that covers everything it really needs to. Dark + Fighting is amazin neutral coverage and X-Scissor / Zen Headbutt rounds up coverage nicely
+ A terrific Pokemon to bring to the E4. Destroys two of the four and can mess with Grimsley with Superpower
- Decent-at-best defenses really start to show during the later parts of the game
- Not too useful pre-Elite Four.*
- Relying on Superpower for coverage means it'll be either be switched around a lot or will have to use Swords Dance, which isn't the easiest thing due to it's lackluster defenses
Grumpig - Low / Lower Middle Tier
Availability - Mid Late (Reversal Mountain)
Notable Moves - Psychic, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Power Gem
Stats - Great SpD, good SpA. Notable HP, Speed and lacking elsewhere
+ Evolved immediately after capture meaning no babying
+ Has all the moves it needs to function
+ Gets Psychic via TM when captured
- Physically frail. Doesn't help that Dark and Bug types ingame tend to rely on Atk more than SpA
- Can't touch Steel types, who resist it's entire offensive movepol
- While good, it's SpA will start to lag endgame when compared to other endgame Pokemon
- Psychic isn't the best STAB, only being useful against Marshall
Pokemon is fun!
I don't think being slower should make or break a Pokemon. It's HP makes it more bulky than Gothitelle.
In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?
- TI, Ready For Whatever
Paper Trail.
Forest Trainer
252Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Iron Head vs 0HP/0Def Reuniclus (Neutral): 38% - 45% (139 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252SpAtk Jirachi (Neutral) Flash Cannon vs 0HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 34% - 40% (126 - 148 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252SpAtk Jirachi (Neutral) Flash Cannon vs 0HP/0SpDef Gothitelle (Neutral): 36% - 42% (102 - 120 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Iron Head vs 0HP/0Def Gothitelle (Neutral): 40% - 48% (114 - 135 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Reuniclus does have slightly lower defence, but a marginally better Spdef. On the whole Reuniclus is slightly more bulky. Also it probably should be mentioned that Duosion hits just as hard as Reuniclus. Despite sucky coverage I think Reuniclus can make Middle [3/3].
Absol for Middle [1/3]. STAB Sucker Punch of that Atk is awesome, but that speed and those defences really hold it back.
Grumpig for Lower-Middle [1/3]. Basically it's Gothitelle with worse defence and no Thunderbolt, but has better speed and no babying.
Mamoswine for Lower-Middle [2/3]. Found far too late in the game and doesn't really make it up in the remaining battles. It's a shame Swinub isn't available somewhere as you're stuck with Ice Fang otherwise.
aka Aurawarrior8
Gogurt is a Pokémon
Re: Questionable Tiers: Basically everythin that was said between edonub and Excitable Boy are valid points. Something else worth mentioning is that most of the Earlier Pokemon Tiered didn't have other Pokemon within the same tier to be compared with. This has caused some well, questionable tierings. All will hopefully be fixed at 2.0 (which I know I keep pointing to which may come off as annoying ^^;it does
So, are we punishing Pokemon in tiering for being outclassed by others, or is the only thing of relevance its own performance?
I see your point. I'll throw my support behind Upper-Mid for both of them.
Where are you getting Rock moves from? The only damaging Rock move Lion and Zion get is Stone Edge, which is post-game.
I didn't tier Gothitelle, but concerning Reuniclus's higher Special Attack...
No member of the Gothita line hits like a truck in the same way Solosis or its evolutions do; hell, Solosis hits harder than Gothitelle. That slightly better bulk and bad Speed over terribad Speed stat aren't doing much for Gothita over Solosis, in exchange; missing KOs means taking hits.
It's more of a wall than a tank on a list where being defensive is pointless.
Stone Edge is post-game.
Absol doesn't have Sucker Punch for over half of its existence, and when it gets it, it may be disappointed when it learns that it's a 5 PP move and it only works if the opponent tries to attack, which is unreliable and may just waste a turn and a PP, making it harder for it to compensate for a crap defense and Speed stat.
If we're taking into account better Pokemon, N's Zorua could have picked up Dark Pulse at Lentimas, which is similar in power to Absol's Night Slash. Zoroark, though, benefits from higher Speed, Illusion, boosted Exp., as well as Shadow Ball and U-turn without the need for tutors. Krokorok evolves around where Absol is available, which has better Speed and defenses, better Abilities, and outdamages Absol with both Crunch and Dig.
Even without comparisons, I'm voting [1/3] Lower-Mid for it.
[1/3] Lower-Mid for Grumpig. Seems like a worse Reuniclus to me.
Jodie Foster held two pair
Bach had three of a kind
Gandhi said, "With my full house,
I will blow your mind!"
Pokemon is fun!
Absol doesn't need Stone Edge to get good coverage. Superpower+Night Slash has good neutral coverage.
In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?
- TI, Ready For Whatever
Paper Trail.
Gogurt is a Pokémon
That doesn't make it not an error.
Jodie Foster held two pair
Bach had three of a kind
Gandhi said, "With my full house,
I will blow your mind!"
Pokemon is fun!
I know. I am just saying Stone Edge isn't really required on Absol.
In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?
- TI, Ready For Whatever
Paper Trail.
Soul Trainer
Grumpig Lower-Middle [2/3] it's reasonably fast and has usable moves.
Absol Middle [2/3] It's useful from the point you get it up to the endgame, has some decent variety in coverage with just TM (Superpower is not really needed, you can use Rock Slide for Ice types, X-Scissor for Dark types, etc.). Would be higher but it's held back by the average speed and bulk, relying on Sucker Punch to outspeed is not the best option in the world. But it's too strong to be any lower. You can invest nothing and still have a solid set of Night Slash/Sucker Punch/Psycho Cut and X-Scissor or Rock Slide depending on your needs, which gives you a lot of super-effective hits on most late-game battles.
About Reuniclus, it's a monster albeit slow. That extra power is much needed when your main STAB is Psychic. Unlike other Psychics, you can outstall even super-effective Payback from Marshall's pokes with Recover/healing items as it's the most phisically bulky among Espeon/Grumpig/Gothitelle and it's slow too, so it won't be 2HKO'd by it. Magic Guard is an awesome ability as well, which you guys are forgetting about. Definitely a step ahead Gothitelle & co.
And yeah, about Cobalion/Virizion learning Rock Slide, my bad cause I took for granted that they could learn them for some reason
Last edited by edonub; 5th December 2012 at 12:02 AM.
Pokemon is fun!
I'd rather get more coverage in one move than one move for each coverage. Superpower is immensely helpful for Steel types as well.
In order to understand my train of thoughts,
you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?
- TI, Ready For Whatever
Paper Trail.
le quant-ŕ-soi
Ah my bad, completely forgot about Magic Guard on Reuniclus. Forget everything I said about it lol.
[3/3] Lower-mid on Mamoswine. It's nice, but not amazing when you consider it isn't overly useful for the few trainers left in the game when you catch it.
I don't really know enough about the other Pokemon waiting approvals to tier them properly. :s
Pelipper - Bottom
Availability - Mid-late; before 7th gym
Notable Moves - Surf, Hurricane, Ice Beam, Toxic, Round, Fly
Stats - Good defence and decent SpA. Mediocre elsewhere.
+ Gets good coverage with its STAB moves
- Limited special movepool
- No special Flying-type STAB until Hurricane (Lv 60); until then, you're stuck with Fly which won't do much off Base 60 Atk
- Not useful for major battles
It also gets Seed Bomb to hit Water-types, but it probably wouldn't do much off its Attack stat as well. It might be better if you could, uh, catch it as a Wingull and hold off evolution until Lv 47 to learn Air Slash, I guess.
Xerneas, the Midgard Pokemon. Xerneas's branch-like horns are reminiscent of those
of the tree it guards. Its mighty horns contain jewels of dazzling colours. It chomps at
upper branches by craning its neck toward the sky. Xerneas protects the horizontal world.
credit // IGRMT Singles Rate Thread // BW2 Ingame Tiers // random text etc etc
Petal Dance
[1/3] Bottom Pelipper, it has no potential whatsoever
Now for an advertisement of sorts! With 1.0 of the thread slowly coming to a close, I'd like to recruit some people to help me with the rewriting of the current tierings (read: rewriting, not retiering). I'd do them myself, but I don't think I'll have the time to rewrite ~130 tierings and I may miss some things out. To apply, simply send me a PM with a rewrite of something that you think needs to be rewritten. Those who do apply will need to be dedicated to the rewriting to some extent in order to get things done in timely fashion, so please refrain from applying if you don't think you'll have the time. I'm looking at anywhere between 2~5 people, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it as we have about that many people regularly posting. Thanks in advance~
Soul Trainer
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a wild Wingull on BW2.
Anyway yeah Bottom [2/3], stuff like Mantine is still moderately usable but Pelipper is stuck with Water STAB as its only special move for WAY too long. Mediocre stats don't help.
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