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Thread: •Official B2/W2 In-Game Tiers• * READ THE OP *

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhanton View Post
    Reuniclus is actually less bulky than Gothitelle (110/75/85 compared to 70/95/110), and since Reuniclus is far slower than Gothitelle (30 compared to 65), it's going to have to take far more hits. I'm not sure how Reuniclus can be a tier above Gothitelle just for having higher SpA and access to a recovery move, so [1/3] lower-mid for Reuniclus.
    252Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Iron Head vs 0HP/0Def Reuniclus (Neutral): 38% - 45% (139 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252SpAtk Jirachi (Neutral) Flash Cannon vs 0HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 34% - 40% (126 - 148 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    252SpAtk Jirachi (Neutral) Flash Cannon vs 0HP/0SpDef Gothitelle (Neutral): 36% - 42% (102 - 120 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252Atk Jirachi (Neutral) Iron Head vs 0HP/0Def Gothitelle (Neutral): 40% - 48% (114 - 135 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Reuniclus does have slightly lower defence, but a marginally better Spdef. On the whole Reuniclus is slightly more bulky. Also it probably should be mentioned that Duosion hits just as hard as Reuniclus. Despite sucky coverage I think Reuniclus can make Middle [3/3].


    Absol for Middle [1/3]. STAB Sucker Punch of that Atk is awesome, but that speed and those defences really hold it back.

    Grumpig for Lower-Middle [1/3]. Basically it's Gothitelle with worse defence and no Thunderbolt, but has better speed and no babying.

    Mamoswine for Lower-Middle [2/3]. Found far too late in the game and doesn't really make it up in the remaining battles. It's a shame Swinub isn't available somewhere as you're stuck with Ice Fang otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumiki View Post
    Re: Questionable Tiers: Basically everythin that was said between edonub and Excitable Boy are valid points. Something else worth mentioning is that most of the Earlier Pokemon Tiered didn't have other Pokemon within the same tier to be compared with. This has caused some well, questionable tierings. All will hopefully be fixed at 2.0 (which I know I keep pointing to which may come off as annoying ^^;
    it does

    So, are we punishing Pokemon in tiering for being outclassed by others, or is the only thing of relevance its own performance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumiki View Post
    I'm not sure that Cobalion is good enough to warrant being a tier higher. Virizion also has the Marlon battle as it's been mentioned, and Virizion can also plow through Half of Shautel's team, which Cobalion can't take credit for. I'm going to say [1/3] Upper Middle for both of them as of now, but I'll probably end up changing my votes some time in the future if I spend more time pondering on it.
    I see your point. I'll throw my support behind Upper-Mid for both of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    Grass/fighting/rock has less neutral coverage but more super-effective hits than steel/fighting/rock.
    Where are you getting Rock moves from? The only damaging Rock move Lion and Zion get is Stone Edge, which is post-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhanton View Post
    Yeah I'm definitely not feeling Middle for Reuniclus, especially given Gothitelle is Lower-mid. Reuniclus is actually less bulky than Gothitelle (110/75/85 compared to 70/95/110), and since Reuniclus is far slower than Gothitelle (30 compared to 65), it's going to have to take far more hits. I'm not sure how Reuniclus can be a tier above Gothitelle just for having higher SpA and access to a recovery move, so [1/3] lower-mid for Reuniclus.
    I didn't tier Gothitelle, but concerning Reuniclus's higher Special Attack...

    No member of the Gothita line hits like a truck in the same way Solosis or its evolutions do; hell, Solosis hits harder than Gothitelle. That slightly better bulk and bad Speed over terribad Speed stat aren't doing much for Gothita over Solosis, in exchange; missing KOs means taking hits.

    It's more of a wall than a tank on a list where being defensive is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumiki View Post
    Notable Moves - Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Swords Dance, Superpower, X-Scissor, Stone Edge, Psycho Cut, Zen Headbutt
    Stone Edge is post-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumiki View Post
    + Sucker Punch is an amazing move. STABed Priority with 80BP? Yes please!
    Absol doesn't have Sucker Punch for over half of its existence, and when it gets it, it may be disappointed when it learns that it's a 5 PP move and it only works if the opponent tries to attack, which is unreliable and may just waste a turn and a PP, making it harder for it to compensate for a crap defense and Speed stat.

    If we're taking into account better Pokemon, N's Zorua could have picked up Dark Pulse at Lentimas, which is similar in power to Absol's Night Slash. Zoroark, though, benefits from higher Speed, Illusion, boosted Exp., as well as Shadow Ball and U-turn without the need for tutors. Krokorok evolves around where Absol is available, which has better Speed and defenses, better Abilities, and outdamages Absol with both Crunch and Dig.

    Even without comparisons, I'm voting [1/3] Lower-Mid for it.

    [1/3] Lower-Mid for Grumpig. Seems like a worse Reuniclus to me.

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  3. #453
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    Absol doesn't need Stone Edge to get good coverage. Superpower+Night Slash has good neutral coverage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    Absol doesn't need Stone Edge to get good coverage. Superpower+Night Slash has good neutral coverage.
    That doesn't make it not an error.

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  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    That doesn't make it not an error.
    I know. I am just saying Stone Edge isn't really required on Absol.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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    Grumpig Lower-Middle [2/3] it's reasonably fast and has usable moves.
    Absol Middle [2/3] It's useful from the point you get it up to the endgame, has some decent variety in coverage with just TM (Superpower is not really needed, you can use Rock Slide for Ice types, X-Scissor for Dark types, etc.). Would be higher but it's held back by the average speed and bulk, relying on Sucker Punch to outspeed is not the best option in the world. But it's too strong to be any lower. You can invest nothing and still have a solid set of Night Slash/Sucker Punch/Psycho Cut and X-Scissor or Rock Slide depending on your needs, which gives you a lot of super-effective hits on most late-game battles.
    About Reuniclus, it's a monster albeit slow. That extra power is much needed when your main STAB is Psychic. Unlike other Psychics, you can outstall even super-effective Payback from Marshall's pokes with Recover/healing items as it's the most phisically bulky among Espeon/Grumpig/Gothitelle and it's slow too, so it won't be 2HKO'd by it. Magic Guard is an awesome ability as well, which you guys are forgetting about. Definitely a step ahead Gothitelle & co.

    And yeah, about Cobalion/Virizion learning Rock Slide, my bad cause I took for granted that they could learn them for some reason
    Last edited by edonub; 5th December 2012 at 12:02 AM.

  7. #457
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    I'd rather get more coverage in one move than one move for each coverage. Superpower is immensely helpful for Steel types as well.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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    Ah my bad, completely forgot about Magic Guard on Reuniclus. Forget everything I said about it lol.

    [3/3] Lower-mid on Mamoswine. It's nice, but not amazing when you consider it isn't overly useful for the few trainers left in the game when you catch it.

    I don't really know enough about the other Pokemon waiting approvals to tier them properly. :s

    Pelipper - Bottom
    Availability - Mid-late; before 7th gym
    Notable Moves - Surf, Hurricane, Ice Beam, Toxic, Round, Fly
    Stats - Good defence and decent SpA. Mediocre elsewhere.

    + Gets good coverage with its STAB moves
    - Limited special movepool
    - No special Flying-type STAB until Hurricane (Lv 60); until then, you're stuck with Fly which won't do much off Base 60 Atk
    - Not useful for major battles

    It also gets Seed Bomb to hit Water-types, but it probably wouldn't do much off its Attack stat as well. It might be better if you could, uh, catch it as a Wingull and hold off evolution until Lv 47 to learn Air Slash, I guess.

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    [1/3] Bottom Pelipper, it has no potential whatsoever

    Now for an advertisement of sorts! With 1.0 of the thread slowly coming to a close, I'd like to recruit some people to help me with the rewriting of the current tierings (read: rewriting, not retiering). I'd do them myself, but I don't think I'll have the time to rewrite ~130 tierings and I may miss some things out. To apply, simply send me a PM with a rewrite of something that you think needs to be rewritten. Those who do apply will need to be dedicated to the rewriting to some extent in order to get things done in timely fashion, so please refrain from applying if you don't think you'll have the time. I'm looking at anywhere between 2~5 people, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it as we have about that many people regularly posting. Thanks in advance~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhanton View Post
    It also gets Seed Bomb to hit Water-types, but it probably wouldn't do much off its Attack stat as well. It might be better if you could, uh, catch it as a Wingull and hold off evolution until Lv 47 to learn Air Slash, I guess.
    I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a wild Wingull on BW2.
    Anyway yeah Bottom [2/3], stuff like Mantine is still moderately usable but Pelipper is stuck with Water STAB as its only special move for WAY too long. Mediocre stats don't help.

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    Pelipper for Bottom [3/3].

    Skarmory - Low tier
    Availability - Late-Mid (Reversal Mountain)
    Notable Moves - Iron Head, Spikes, X-scissor, Rock Slide, Roar, Fly, Roost, Toxic
    Stats - Mediocre HP, Spdef and Speed, Average atk, gargantuan Defence

    +Brilliant defensive typing
    +Sturdy means it cannot be OHKO'd at full health.
    -No physical flying STAB bar Fly
    -Bad movepool
    -Lackluster offensive play in general.
    -Very vulnerable to special attackers.


    Sure, it's got great defence and typing, but that's about it. A real problem with many walls is that they can't fight back like tanks, which means they'll probably be relegated to Low.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a wild Wingull on BW2.
    Anyway yeah Bottom [2/3], stuff like Mantine is still moderately usable but Pelipper is stuck with Water STAB as its only special move for WAY too long. Mediocre stats don't help.
    Wingull is only if you breed. [3/3] Bottom Pelliper. Only thing good going for it is defense and stockpile.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
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    Low is a little mean for Skarmory, I feel. Fly is a pretty good move, Steel typing is great for random battles, and Skarmory does well against Marshal, Grimsley, some of Shauntal and a bit of Iris. Its movepool isn't bad enough to warrant a minus in my opinion. I feel that Steel Wing could be an option if you don't want to spend the shards for Iron Head. Personally, I think Roar kind of sucks in-game, but that could be just my personal taste.

    My personal opinion is that Lower-Middle suits Skarmory better ([1/3]). Anyway, theorymon time!

    Dewgong - Lower-Middle Tier
    Availability - Mid-Late (Seaside Cave)
    Notable moves - Surf, Aqua Tail, Blizzard, Ice Beam, Hail, Signal Beam, Drill Run, Dive, Toxic
    Stats - Good HP and Sp. Def, decent Def, average attacking stats and Speed

    +Available all year round and easy to catch - the most convenient Ice-type before Drayden
    +Evolves immediately after capture
    +Can easily Toxic-stall with Dive
    -Stats are all too average for it to really sparkle in a certain role
    -Doesn't shine in major battles after Drayden
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  14. #464
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    Dewgong can be good for Iris's Pokemon. 5 out of 6 of them are weak to Dewgong's STAB (except Lapras). I'd say lower-middle suits it well. [1/3]
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    Dewgong can be good for Iris's Pokemon. 5 out of 6 of them are weak to Dewgong's STAB (except Lapras). I'd say lower-middle suits it well. [1/3]
    This is true. Archeops can OHKO, though, and without playtesting, I don't know how well Dewgong can stand up to Hydreigon's Charge Beam/Dragon Pulse or Haxorus's Dual Chop. It does well against Druddigon and Aggron, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    Low is a little mean for Skarmory, I feel. Fly is a pretty good move, Steel typing is great for random battles, and Skarmory does well against Marshal, Grimsley, some of Shauntal and a bit of Iris. Its movepool isn't bad enough to warrant a minus in my opinion. I feel that Steel Wing could be an option if you don't want to spend the shards for Iron Head. Personally, I think Roar kind of sucks in-game, but that could be just my personal taste.

    My personal opinion is that Lower-Middle suits Skarmory better ([1/3]). Anyway, theorymon time!

    Dewgong - Lower-Middle Tier
    Availability - Mid-Late (Seaside Cave)
    Notable moves - Surf, Aqua Tail, Blizzard, Ice Beam, Hail, Signal Beam, Drill Run, Dive, Toxic
    Stats - Good HP and Sp. Def, decent Def, average attacking stats and Speed

    +Available all year round and easy to catch - the most convenient Ice-type before Drayden
    +Evolves immediately after capture
    +Can easily Toxic-stall with Dive
    -Stats are all too average for it to really sparkle in a certain role
    -Doesn't shine in major battles after Drayden
    I agree with Skarmory being Lower Middle. Lots of players need a Flyer in their team, and Skarmory is easily one of the most reliable (Makes for a good combo with Toxic as well, considering the wall-ish nature of Skarmory). Its movepool is not THAT bad, to be honest, and even its attack is okay for a physical wall. I liked it a lot, that typing is pretty damn useful. Lower Middle [2/3]

    On the other hand I disagree with Dewgong being Lower Middle. Does good against Drayden? With what, STAB Aurora Beam? :| Blizzard has horrible accuracy, and Ice Beam comes VERY late at level 55 (You will probably learn it via TM before even reaching that level, but the TM comes after Drayden). It will be enough to onehit Flygon (after taking a heavy hit, because you're slower), Druddigon can easily live a hit and OHKO with Revenge. Not a good Drayden counter at all. I'm for Low [1/3]

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    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    On the other hand I disagree with Dewgong being Lower Middle. Does good against Drayden? With what, STAB Aurora Beam? :| Blizzard has horrible accuracy, and Ice Beam comes VERY late at level 55 (You will probably learn it via TM before even reaching that level, but the TM comes after Drayden). It will be enough to onehit Flygon (after taking a heavy hit, because you're slower), Druddigon can easily live a hit and OHKO with Revenge. Not a good Drayden counter at all. I'm for Low [1/3]
    That's why I had Hail and Blizzard as options. They cost a fair bit together, I suppose, but I've never had a problem with cash in-game. With both moves, Drayden should be pretty easy for Dewgong.
    Last edited by TotalPotato; 6th December 2012 at 1:28 AM.
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    I'm with edo on this one; the fact that you have to use a weather that will probably harm the rest of your team to do something that just about every /Ice Type can do without really hinders it and makes it much to self-centered. While I haven't playtested Dewgong, I have used Sealeo in the past and a Blizzard from it was unable to KO Haxorus iirc . Considering that Sealeo actually has higher SpA than Dewgong, I don't see it KOing Haxorus any time soon. Definately Low [2/3] for me

    Also Lower Middle [3/3] Skarm. Everyone else has said pretty much eveything that needs to be said

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumiki View Post
    I'm with edo on this one; the fact that you have to use a weather that will probably harm the rest of your team to do something that just about every /Ice Type can do without really hinders it and makes it much to self-centered. While I haven't playtested Dewgong, I have used Sealeo in the past and a Blizzard from it was unable to KO Haxorus iirc . Considering that Sealeo actually has higher SpA than Dewgong, I don't see it KOing Haxorus any time soon. Definately Low [2/3] for me
    Every Ice-type? Like, all FOUR you can get before Drayden? Two of those require it to be Winter, and the other one is a huge pain to catch. Dewgong, though, is easy to get in any season. Hail + Blizzard is not ideal, but people somehow made an argument for Ice Punch on Simipour making it good against Drayden (which has to be over twice as weak as Dewgong's Blizzard). People also argued that Blizzard was a good option on Samurott to deal with Drayden (and that's without Hail!). I would say that Hail + Blizzard on Dewgong is a more effective strategy than either of those two. You'd probably ditch Hail as soon as you get Ice Beam, but Hail + Blizzard is a nice way to deal big damage to someone with Pokémon that might resist a lot of your other attacks.

    And to be honest, it doesn't matter if Blizzard doesn't KO Haxorus, because I don't think anything does at that point in the game except maybe Lapras's Blizzard or something. It'll just Dragon Dance + Dragon Tail anyway. That's all it ever seems to do.
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    I'll post something in more detail about other stuff later, but for the moment:

    a) Are we considering saving and resetting before Drayden a viable strategy? Since Blizzard hitting is just luck, you could just try it without Hail and reset if you miss and that ends up screwing you over.
    b) If we're calling Ice Punch Simipour, of all things, strong against Drayden, what's wrong with Aurora Beam? 65 x 1.5 x 2 = 195 base power, which is by no means bad; while not backed by the highest Special Attack stat, it's a reliable move that could probably still 2HKO.

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    Simipour can outspeed Drayden's Flygon and OHKO it, Dewgong will take heavy damage
    Both Simipour and Dewgong won't onehit Druddigon unless they rely on Blizzard, but Simipour can take a move from Druddigon without getting knocked out, Dewgong is OHKOed by Revenge
    Haxorus blows with the incredibly weak Dragon Dance + Dragon Tail combo. No one cares about it as long as you can 2hko it before it can touch you (and as long as you're not weak to Payback). Better speed and typing is why Simipour works on that Gym and Dewgong not so much. At least, not enough to be considered a plus in the review.
    finally, you can change the date on your DS if you need to catch a season specific poke. That's not a real obstacle :V
    And of course, resetting until you win is an option, you can also spam Double Team and soft reset until you can get to +6 without getting hit, you can soft reset until you crit that annoying Hydreigon, et cetera. This whole thread wouldn't make sense if you took into account the "reset until lucky" factor.
    Last edited by edonub; 6th December 2012 at 3:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    Simipour can outspeed Drayden's Flygon and OHKO it, Dewgong will take heavy damage
    Both Simipour and Dewgong won't onehit Druddigon unless they rely on Blizzard, but Simipour can take a move from Druddigon without getting knocked out, Dewgong is OHKOed by Revenge
    Haxorus blows with the weak-*** Dragon Dance + Dragon Tail combo. No one cares about it as long as you can 2hko it before it can touch you (and as long as you're not weak to Payback). Better speed and typing is why Simipour works on that Gym and Dewgong not so much. At least, not enough to be considered a pro in the review.
    finally, you can change the date on your DS if you need to catch a season specific poke. That's not a real obstacle :V
    Revenge only has 60 power if you don't attack, so Hail + Blizzard would work without Dewgong going down. Whether Simipour can KO before being KOd is up in the air. Both can take Flygon out without being KOd, although you're right about Dewgong taking damage. I'm still amazed you 2HKOd Haxorus with Simipour's Ice Punch, but you were one level over. Without grinding, I was 5-6 levels under. If you're lower levelled, I think Dewgong will work better than Simipour against Drayden overall.

    Also, quite a few people don't like changing seasons because it messes with Join Avenue and the Dream World and stuff, so I think it is something to be pointed out (although not everyone will care).
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    Every Ice-type? Like, all FOUR you can get before Drayden? Two of those require it to be Winter, and the other one is a huge pain to catch. Dewgong, though, is easy to get in any season. Hail + Blizzard is not ideal, but people somehow made an argument for Ice Punch on Simipour making it good against Drayden (which has to be over twice as weak as Dewgong's Blizzard). People also argued that Blizzard was a good option on Samurott to deal with Drayden (and that's without Hail!). I would say that Hail + Blizzard on Dewgong is a more effective strategy than either of those two. You'd probably ditch Hail as soon as you get Ice Beam, but Hail + Blizzard is a nice way to deal big damage to someone with Pokémon that might resist a lot of your other attacks.

    And to be honest, it doesn't matter if Blizzard doesn't KO Haxorus, because I don't think anything does at that point in the game except maybe Lapras's Blizzard or something. It'll just Dragon Dance + Dragon Tail anyway. That's all it ever seems to do.
    Yes, I have to agree with TotalPotato. Hail doesn't even do that much damage, so having it hit your Pokemon is not that big of an issue. The only thing that could is your very own Haxorus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    Simipour can outspeed Drayden's Flygon and OHKO it, Dewgong will take heavy damage
    You... heal afterward? That's allowed, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    Both Simipour and Dewgong won't onehit Druddigon unless they rely on Blizzard, but Simipour can take a move from Druddigon without getting knocked out, Dewgong is OHKOed by Revenge
    Actually, checking some calcs (assuming two levels underleveled, which was what I was), Simipour and Dewgong suck about equally versus Druddigon. Both 2HKO with Blizzard and 3HKO with other Ice move, but Druddigon 2HKOs both back with Revenge (yes, Dewgong -does- survive that, albeit with little health remaining). Whichever one you pick, your odds are about the same in basically rolling the dice and hoping for two Blizzard hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    And of course, resetting until you win is an option, you can also spam Double Team and soft reset until you can get to +6 without getting hit, you can soft reset until you crit that annoying Hydreigon, et cetera. This whole thread wouldn't make sense if you took into account the "reset until lucky" factor.
    Resetting if a 30% chance to screw up occurs and the AI gets lucky and screws up the rest of you? If that's too much of a chance to advocate resetting as a serious strategy, why don't we advocate Mist Vanniluxe to prevent 10% stat drops? 30% is honestly not bad accuracy; there's a good enough chance you'll get it first try, if not second, that there's no reason losing a potential three minutes shouldn't be considered.

    EDIT: Look further into the thing, given how slow victory is in Gym 8, how it struggles against anything of relevance from Plasma, and how badly it fares against the E4's various coverage attacks, I don't care if it solos Drayden. Low [3/3] and be done with it.
    Last edited by Excitable Boy; 6th December 2012 at 4:39 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by R_N View Post
    i am this close to editing excitable boy's signature to ITS A JOKE for the next 5 months
    Quote Originally Posted by R_N View Post
    I should make this the signature of both sogeking & excitable boy

  25. #475
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    For arguement's sake, let's say that Dewgong is successful in taking down Drayden. What's it going to do afterwards? 70SpA is terrible for endgame standards, it's even lower than Dewott. Even Super Effective hits will be 2HKOing at the very least, and it doesn't have the defenses to take hits repeatedly. It doesn't exactly help that it doesn't even have the coverage to get the 2HKOes unless you're using it's STABs. It has absolutely no potential for everything after Drayden. It has a brief stint against Iris, but I can see it struggling even there; Ice Beam coming from a Base 70SpA isn't going to be knocking out endgame Pokemon any time soon.*

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