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Thread: •Official B2/W2 In-Game Tiers• * READ THE OP *

  1. #476
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    Vespiquen - Low Tier
    Availability - Midgame (Lostlorn Forest)
    Notable Moves - Attack Order, Air Slash, Toxic, Heal Order, Acrobatics, Power Gem
    Stats - Very low speed, Decent offences, great defences, average HP

    +Evolves immediately.
    +Unlike other walls, it gets Toxic and a recovery move in Heal Order relatively early.
    -Horrid Bug/Flying typing.
    -Only female Combee evolve, and only 5% Combee are female. It will be very tedious to catch a viable female Combee, including natures and other things.
    -Offensive movepool is limited to its STABs and Power Gem.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 7th December 2012 at 6:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  2. #477
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        Spoiler:- List of Pokemon:


    Quote Originally Posted by Aurath8 View Post
    Vespiquen - Low Tier
    Availability - Midgame (Lostlorn Forest)
    Notable Moves - Attack Order, Air Slash, Toxic, Heal Order, Acrobatics, Power Gem
    Stats - Very low speed, Decent offences, great defences, average HP

    +Evolves immediately.
    +Unlike other walls, it gets Toxic and a recovery move in Heal Order relatively early.
    -Horrid Bug/Flying typing.
    -Only female Combee evolve, and only 5% Combee are female. It will be very tedious to catch a viable female Combee, including natures and other things.
    -Stuck with weak moves until you get Acrobatics in Mistralton city.
    -Offensive movepool is limited to its STABs and Power Gem.
    I'll [1/3] Low, but I'd like to note that Bug Bite can be retained from Combee, Signal Beam is available at Driftveil, Aerial Ace is in Mistralton as soon as you get there, and X-Scissor is on Route 7. Venoshock is available right off the bat, and is a good option once she gets Toxic at Lv. 33. Saying that she's stuck with weak moves until Acrobatics isn't really true, since her STAB moves and offensive stats are on par with most of what you'd have available before Skyla.

    Confuse Ray and Defend Order are also cool moves, particularly Defend Order. Walls like having defense.

    For Escavalier and Accelgor, I assume that they're both allowed to evolve immediately? In that case, I'll tier them.

    Accelgor - Low Tier
    Availability - Mid-game (Route 6)
    Notable Moves - Signal Beam, Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, Energy Ball, Acid Spray, Me First
    Stats - Good Special Attack, middling defenses, crappy Attack, holycrapwhatthefuq Speed

    + Signal Beam the moment you get it and good Special Attack give it a strong start
    + Always goes first. Seriously.
    + Good choice to fight Grimsley and Caitlin in the end-game
    - Can't handle Skyla at all, and becomes more difficult to make kills in the late-game
    - Movepool is laughably bad; Bug/Grass is terrible coverage, and it only has STAB on Bug
    - Requires someone to trade with and Signal Beam tutor to do anything at all

    Escavalier - Middle Tier
    Availability - Mid-game (Route 6)
    Notable Moves - Twineedle, Bug Bite, Iron Head, X-Scissor, Swords Dance, Reversal, Aerial Ace
    Stats - Heavens-piercing Attack, great defenses, pointless Special Attack, craptastic Speed

    + Has instant access to Iron Head, one-shotting so much coming from that Attack stat
    + Typing gives it a multitude of resistances, and great defenses mean it doesn't go down easily
    + Good choice to fight Clay, Skyla, Drayden, Plasma, Grimsley, and Caitlin
    - Poor Speed means taking hits, necessitating more frequent healing
    - Coverage is poor, and it absolutely cannot fight Fire- and Steel-types
    - Requires someone to trade with to do anything at all

    Not much else to say, really. These guys definitely benefited a lot from the new tutors.
    Last edited by Excitable Boy; 6th December 2012 at 11:22 PM.

  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy
    I'll [1/3] Low, but I'd like to note that Bug Bite can be retained from Combee, Signal Beam is available at Driftveil, Aerial Ace is in Mistralton as soon as you get there, and X-Scissor is on Route 7. Venoshock is available right off the bat, and is a good option once she gets Toxic at Lv. 33. Saying that she's stuck with weak moves until Acrobatics isn't really true, since her STAB moves and offensive stats are on par with most of what you'd have available before Skyla.

    Confuse Ray and Defend Order are also cool moves, particularly Defend Order. Walls like having defense.
    Ah, forgot about Signal Beam. Bug Bite off 80 Atk is pretty good by Nimbasa, and will carry her until Driftveil.
    I doubt Vespiquen has a free moveslot for Defend Order. The others are probably taken up my Toxic/STAB/STAB/Recovery. I'll add it in anyway since it should be viable for a little while.

    Bouffalant - Low Tier
    Availability - Very late (Route 23)
    Notable Moves - Return, Head Charge, Swords Dance, Megahorn, Bulldoze, Rock Slide, Superpower, Revenge
    Stats - Great HP and defences, excellent Atk, Low Spatk and Spd

    +Useful against Caitlin and Grimsley with Megahorn
    +Lots of high-powered STAB moves.
    -Found very late.
    -Typing leaves it struggling against 2 E4 members and does fairly average against the champion.
    -Low speed puts a lot of pressure on hs defences.


    Unless you get one in the Hidden Hollow on Route 9, Bouffalant just comes far too late to make a significant impact. He does, overall, quite average against the E4 and otherwise isn't present.

    Accelgor for Low [1/3]. Without Focus blast this time round it's just disappointing.
    Escavalier for Middle [1/3]. That Atk at that point in the game is straight up OP. Shame that he's slower than Snorlax and has a meh movepool in the end.

    And only 10 more pokemon to do, awesome.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 7th December 2012 at 6:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  4. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurath8 View Post
    And only 10 more pokemon to do, awesome.
    What 10 Pokemon are left?
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
    Paper Trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurath8 View Post
    I doubt Vespiquen has a free moveslot for Defend Order. The others are probably taken up my Toxic/STAB/STAB/Recovery. I'll add it in anyway since it should be viable for a little while.
    Why are you using move recovery in-game when you have item recovery, which is reasonably cheap, easy to come by, universal, and doesn't take up a moveslot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurath8 View Post
    Bouffalant - Low Tier
    Availability - Very late (Route 23)
    Notable Moves - Return, Head Charge, Swords Dance, Megahorn, Bulldoze, Rock Slide, Superpower, Revenge
    Stats - Great HP and defences, excellent Atk, Low Spatk and Spd

    +Useful against Caitlin and Grimsley with Megahorn
    +Lots of high-powered STAB moves.
    -Found very late.
    -Typing leaves it struggling against 2 E4 members and does fairly average against the champion.
    -Low speed puts a lot of pressure on hs defences.
    I'm somewhat tempted to say Lower-Mid. Normal is a pretty good type to have, and it has access to Payback and Reversal, which gives it near-unresisted Fighting/Dark coverage. Wild Charge and Outrage are good moves to have for Iris, and its defenses are good enough to take hits if it needs to. Unlike something like Throh, which is similar statistically, comes at the same time, and is Low Tier, Bouffalant has the power and coverage to destroy most of the E4 without a large amount of help. I'll wait for some other arguments before making a decision, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    What 10 Pokemon are left?
    The first 10 from the list in my last post.

  6. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    I'm somewhat tempted to say Lower-Mid. Normal is a pretty good type to have, and it has access to Payback and Reversal, which gives it near-unresisted Fighting/Dark coverage. Wild Charge and Outrage are good moves to have for Iris, and its defenses are good enough to take hits if it needs to. Unlike something like Throh, which is similar statistically, comes at the same time, and is Low Tier, Bouffalant has the power and coverage to destroy most of the E4 without a large amount of help. I'll wait for some other arguments before making a decision, though.
    Bouffalant doesn't get Outrage. It is a move tutor for post-game (Nacrene City). However, I do agree with what you said. [1/3] Bouffalant in Lower-Mid. I used one in-game during my last playthrough and it took on Iris and 2 of the Elite 4 easily, courtesy of its good defenses and great HP, plus its sky-high Attack.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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  7. #482
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    I suppose Vespiquen fits well in Low. It's by no means Bottom material but doesn't exactly stand up to Lower Middle Standards [2/3] Low Vespiquen

    Ugh y no Focus Blast Accelgor? [2/3] Low Accelgor

    I can't help but think that Iron Head coming off a Base 140(?) Atk is a tad bit overpowered considering you get Escavalier so early on. He doesn't suffer against any Gym an even plays a role in Drayden's Gym with the Deino/Zweilous around. He's also a fantastic Pokemon to bring to the Elite Four as mentioned above. Not to mention Steel/Bug/Fighting ala Superpower makes quick work of most Plasma goons and random battles in general. His Physical Defense is also good enough to take several hits, and Bug/Steel is a pretty good defensive typing iirc. I'm going to say [1/3] Upper Middle as of now, but I may be downplaying that nonexistant Spe stat too much.

    I guess Bouffalant [1/3] Lower Mid. I haven't looked at it too much, but the arguements made thus far seem pretty legit

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    [3/3] Low Vespiquen. It starts up well but falls behind I suppose. Nothing more to add here.

    [3/3] Low Accelgor. I think Excitable Boy's post described him pretty well. Has nice speed but apart from that, he isn't amazing.

    @Tsumiki; Escavalier doesn't get Superpower (it does get Reversal and Rock Smash as physical Fighting-type moves though but those probably won't be that useful), so yeah. I think if it got one of Drill Run or Superpower it could definitely be higher, but as it stands I think Middle is the best place for him. He does have a good defensive typing and good stats (bar Speed) though. *shrugs* [2/3] Middle

    I hadn't given Bouffalant much thought, honestly, but I never realised how diverse and useful his movepool is. The arguments made by Excitable Boy, much like Tsumiki said, seem good, so [2/3] Lower mid.

    I'll [2/3] Altaria in Low, as well. Dragon + Fire coverage is brilliant in Dragon Pulse + Flamethrower, Cotton Guard is a nice move and Fly's a good STAB to have to hit Fighting-types, I guess. Even before you get Flamethrower, Dragon + Ground (Dragon Pulse + Bulldoze) gets great coverage as well (only missing out on things like Ferrothorn, I think).

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    Bisharp - Low/Bottom Tier
    Availability - Late (Route 9)
    Notable Moves - Night Slash, Iron Head, Low Kick, Dual Chop, Rock Polish
    Stats - Fantastic Atk, great defence, mediocre elsewhere

    +Destroys Caitlin, Shauntal and does fairly well against Iris
    -Must stay a Pawniard until lvl 52, meaning he has to be babied right up to the Pokemon League.
    -Requires heavy shard investment for Low Kick, Dual Chop and Iron Head.

    I know Bisharp gets Iron Head through levelup but he gets it at lvl 57 - the same level as most of the champion's pokemon. I've also not listed Swords Dance because he gets that at lvl 63. It does fairly well against the E4, but I think its low Spdef hinders its performance against Caitlin/Shauntal somewhat and Iris' dragons all have the coverage to take him down. With Bisharp being a dead-weight until Victory Road and a slightly questionable performance afterwards I think it deserves Low.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 8th December 2012 at 9:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Iron Head is fairly cheap, though, or it could hold off on evolution for two levels. Low Kick and Dual Chop aren't necessary. Metal Burst via relearner could be nice, and X-Scissor also comes via TM, for what it's worth.

    Still, the thing is so fragile specially, I can't see it owning Shauntal the way a Dark-type should. Just throwing out some calcs (assuming two levels underleveled vs. secondaries and four vs. mains), Bisharp can't handle either Golurk or Chandelure, and Caitlin's Reuniclus survives Night Slash and can KO with Focus Blast. Against Iris, everything not called Archeops or Lapras carries coverage, and Lapras's better defenses and attacks mean it isn't a winning matchup. While the other late-game acquisitions have the bulk or the speed to make up for their typing, Bisharp has neither, and Shauntal, a fight that it should be beasting, is a losing proposition.

    I'd put in Bottom, since there are literally only six Pokemon in the League that it stands any chance against, and that's pretty much the only place it will be useful because it spends half its life as a Pawniard with 45/70/40 defenses, and Pawniard =/= Pwniard.

    and if could I'd also move down some of Low

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    Iron Head is fairly cheap, though, or it could hold off on evolution for two levels. Low Kick and Dual Chop aren't necessary. Metal Burst via relearner could be nice, and X-Scissor also comes via TM, for what it's worth.
    Low Kick is Bisharp's best bet at coverage though, pairing excellently with Night Slash. Agreed on Dual Chop as that's just Iris and neutral coverage. As for Iron Head, it's Pawniard's other options are Metal Claw and Assurance. Iron Head is literally it's only way of attempting to be relevant in the team at all until evolution.
    The amount of damage Metal Burst does is based of the HP damage you take: with only 65 base HP I don't think it'll be particularly effective, then again Metal Burst feels like a move you'd need to experience to tell if it's actually good or not. X-scissor...well apart from Grass types it doesn't add anything already covered by Low Kick/Night Slash.

    Still, the thing is so fragile specially, I can't see it owning Shauntal the way a Dark-type should. Just throwing out some calcs (assuming two levels underleveled vs. secondaries and four vs. mains), Bisharp can't handle either Golurk or Chandelure, and Caitlin's Reuniclus survives Night Slash and can KO with Focus Blast. Against Iris, everything not called Archeops or Lapras carries coverage, and Lapras's better defenses and attacks mean it isn't a winning matchup. While the other late-game acquisitions have the bulk or the speed to make up for their typing, Bisharp has neither, and Shauntal, a fight that it should be beasting, is a losing proposition.
    I did consider it's Spdef, but I didn't think it'd make such an impact since it's already x4 resist/immune to Ghost/Psychic moves. Anyway the pokemon it should be able to handle are:

    Drifblim
    Liepard, Bisharp(with Low Kick)
    Musharna, Sigilyph, Gothitelle
    Archeops, Aggron(with Low Kick), Lapras(with Low Kick)

    Low Kick OHKOes Aggron easily. Bisharp can take Lapras' Surf and 2KO as well.
    Still, 10 pokemon that it could maybe beat out of 22 is underwhelming for all the trouble and effort it took to get there in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Lapras outruns Bisharp, though, and Surf 2HKOs pretty reliably. What makes its SpD so bad is that Shauntal and Caitlin both pack coverage, and Drifblim and Gothitelle's Thunderbolts will hurt, as Bishie can't OHKO with Night Slash.

    Everything beats Liepard and Musharna, the former is weakasfuq and the latter uses Yawn/Dream Eater combo, they honestly should not be counted. That would leave six Pokemon, two of which are only possible because of a tutor move.

    Having to put up with 10 levels of Pawniard (who, by the way, doesn't pick up Night Slash until 49, meaning you're dragging it through both Drayden and Marlon with Faint Attack/Iron Head off base 85 Attack) only to get a slow, specially frail Bisharp that's useful for about one fight doesn't seem Low to me. It seems Bottom.

    also can we please call them komatana and kirikizan, those names are so much cooler than that chess thing they have going in english
    Last edited by Excitable Boy; 8th December 2012 at 10:06 PM.

  13. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsumiki View Post
    I suppose Vespiquen fits well in Low. It's by no means Bottom material but doesn't exactly stand up to Lower Middle Standards [2/3] Low Vespiquen

    Ugh y no Focus Blast Accelgor? [2/3] Low Accelgor

    I can't help but think that Iron Head coming off a Base 140(?) Atk is a tad bit overpowered considering you get Escavalier so early on. He doesn't suffer against any Gym an even plays a role in Drayden's Gym with the Deino/Zweilous around. He's also a fantastic Pokemon to bring to the Elite Four as mentioned above. Not to mention Steel/Bug/Fighting ala Superpower makes quick work of most Plasma goons and random battles in general. His Physical Defense is also good enough to take several hits, and Bug/Steel is a pretty good defensive typing iirc. I'm going to say [1/3] Upper Middle as of now, but I may be downplaying that nonexistant Spe stat too much.

    I guess Bouffalant [1/3] Lower Mid. I haven't looked at it too much, but the arguements made thus far seem pretty legit
    [2/3] for Bouffalant, which is now [3/3] cuz of Zhanton.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
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    [1/3] Bottom for Bisharp. It's a shame that it's so lacklustre in the few battles it's present in because it has such a great design. Lacking movepool and late evolution hurt him.

    Assuming we'll be retiering Terrakion later on, I'll [2/3] Virizion for Upper-mid and [2/3] Cobalion for Upper-mid.

    Escavalier should be [2/3] Mid in the OP, as I mentioned in my post a few posts up ^

    [3/3] Volcarona in Upper-mid. Free shards for Signal Beam (iirc) help it out early on.

    Ehhh out of the few remaining Pokemon, I think Beheeyem is the one I know the most about.

    Beheeyem - Low/Lower-mid
    Availability - Mid/Mid-late (Celestial Tower)
    Notable Moves - Psychic, Psyshock, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam
    Stats - Great SpA. Good SpD and decent HP/Defence, but low Speed.

    + Decent movepool
    + Great Special Attack stat
    - Doesn't particularly shine in any major battles
    - Late evolution (Lv 42); Elgyem is frail and will definitely lag behind

    yeahhh I haven't actually used Beheeyem (yet) so this is all a pretty shallow theorymon analysis but yeah. Leaning more towards Low due to the fact that it doesn't shine in major battles (all of Marshall's Pokemon bar Conkeldurr carry a Dark or Bug-type move).

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    Woah this is helpful, nice to see that some pokémon of my team are so high rated.



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    i'd personally like beyeeebehebebebenm to be lower-mid. simply because i don't think it's got quite enough against it to put it low and if you've got a way to get it to level 42 quickly enough it can fill in some nice holes. plus i automatically like most things with psyshock just because omfg it's such a good move. but it's not reallllly useful or usable enough to put it in middle and yeah not bad enough for low. so, lower-mid, [1/3].

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    I think everyone has forgotten that Bisharp gets Brick Break.

    Pretty sure Beheeyem also gets Energy Ball , but [2/3] Lower-Mid.
    I'm feelin' electric tonight
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    Got my bad baby by my heavenly side
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    I'll [2/3] bug-eyed monster for Lower-Mid, it gets T-bolt, Charge Beam, and Dark Pulse as some pretty cool moves, and it's got the same SpA as Reuniclus when evolved, but it's still frail and still needs to be put up with as an Elgyem for like 10 levels. I'm torn between Lower-Mid and Low, but at least it can try to hurt Steels with Charge Beam, and Calm Mind is cool (as is Recover, if you're into that).

    Pinsir - Upper-Middle Tier
    Availability
    - Mid-game (Lostlorn Forest)
    Notable Moves - Revenge, Brick Break, X-Scissor, Storm Throw, Thrash, Swords Dance, Bug Bite, Superpower, Return, Dig, Rock Slide
    Stats - Colossal Attack, solid Defense, poor Special Defense, good Speed, useless Special Attack

    + Gets STAB X-Scissor fairly quickly, and has the stats to do well throughout most of the mid-game with X-Scissor and Fighting move
    + Swords Dance at Lv. 40 gives it destructive potential for late-game
    + Fares well against Grimsley and Caitlin in the end-game
    - Learns a butt-ton of decent Fighting moves via level-up... and has no Fighting STAB to use them with
    - Moves start to lack power later on, and Pinsir doesn't get better replacements at all; must use Swords Dance to hit harder
    - Doesn't do that well against Skyla, and pure Bug isn't a great typing for any other Gyms

    It's pretty much a poor man's Heracross; it hits about the same in theory, but it isn't half-Fighting and its moves all have worse base powers. It's also way less bulky specially, and Skyla's Air Slash destroys Pinsir just as badly as it does Heracross. Fortunately for Pinsir, bad Heracross is still pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Sensai View Post
    I think everyone has forgotten that Bisharp gets Brick Break.
    Brick Break requires PWT grinding to get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aura Sensai View Post
    [3/3]it does still get some OP moves like Earthquake and Superpower , so it still can shine.
    Girthquake is post-game. Superpower has its own problems.
    Last edited by Excitable Boy; 15th December 2012 at 12:38 AM.

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    I thought it was a TM :/ Must be from BW.
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    I know if I go, I'll die happy tonight

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    It is a TM, but you can only get it with BP.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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    Pinsir for upper-mid [1/3]. It's good pokemon that unfortunately will forever remain in Heracross shadow. That and pure Bug is pretty sucky in general.

    Beeheeyem for Lower-Mid [3/3].
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Pinsir: [2/3]. It is pretty much outclassed by Heracross, but it gets its moves at the right time and has high atk.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
    Paper Trail.

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    [3/3] Pinsir Upper-Mid ; it does still get some OP moves like Earthquake and Superpower , so it still can shine.
    I'm feelin' electric tonight
    Cruising down the coast goin' 'bout 99
    Got my bad baby by my heavenly side
    I know if I go, I'll die happy tonight

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    Claydol
    Floatzel
    Zebstrika
    Drapion
    Drifblim
    Wailord

    Huh, only 4 left. Nice.

    Mantine - Bottom Tier
    Availability - Late (Undella Bay)
    Notable Moves - Surf, Scald, Ice Beam, Air Slash, Signal Beam
    Stats - Low HP, Atk, defence and speed, Decent spatk, sky-high spdef

    +Can evolve immediately, bypassing the pretty much unusable Mantyke stage.
    -Uninspring offensively.
    -Lacking ways to properly take advantage of its spdef besides Aqua Ring.
    -Not useful in any major battles.
    -Does terribly against physical attackers.


    Before anyone says Marshall, 3/4 of his pokemon have a Rock move and the last is Mienshao, who'll just take advantage of Mantine's bad defence with Retaliate, or even Hi Jump Kick. But yeah, Mantine is pretty bad as he can't make use of his best attribute and his others suck.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 20th December 2012 at 1:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Floatzel - Middle Tier
    Availability - Surf(After 5th gym)
    Notable Moves - Waterfall,Aqua Tail,Crunch,Ice Punch,Low Kick,Brick Break,Surf,Scald,Return
    Stats - Great Speed and Attack.Decent Sp.Attack and HP.Below Average Defence and Sp.Defense


    +Very Fast which means it will be outsped by only a few things like Accelgor,Crobat and Jolteon.
    +Great offenses to hit hard.
    +Crunch+Low Kick/Brick Break gives it an unresisted coverage(apart from Toxicroak and Heracross).
    -Low Defenses means it will take huge damage if it is unable to OHKO the opponent.
    -Priority moves bypass its blistering speed and hit hard.

    It is just like Simipour though with more shallow movepool,better speed and more emphasis on the physical side of the offensive spectrum.
        Spoiler:- Completed and Current Playthroughs:

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