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Thread: •Official B2/W2 In-Game Tiers• * READ THE OP *

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    I still don't think Speed is an issue for him.
    Well, I'm convinced now.

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    Well, Electro Ball's minimum power is 60, so it's not all that bad. You're likely to Thunder Wave if you're slower anyway, so it'll be higher than that much of the time.
    True, but it's still not that great at the point in the game you're using it at, especially for a STAB move.

    Also, paralysis halves Speed. Since Electro Ball requires 3x Speed to have 80 base power, simply paralyzing a faster Poke won't affect damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Also, paralysis halves Speed. Since Electro Ball requires 3x Speed to have 80 base power, simply paralyzing a faster Poke won't affect damage.
    It doesn't require 3x speed - it requires between 2x and 3x speed. Besides, paralysis quarters speed, so you'd hit with 80 power fairly often.
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
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  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Well, I'm convinced now.



    True, but it's still not that great at the point in the game you're using it at, especially for a STAB move.

    Also, paralysis halves Speed. Since Electro Ball requires 3x Speed to have 80 base power, simply paralyzing a faster Poke won't affect damage.
    Actually, it does affect damage. It doesn't matter how you outspeed the opponent, but on if you DO outspeed.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
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  4. #379
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    It has the bulk to take hits like a champ.
    110/123/65/100/65/65. I don't know about you, but I don't think 65 Defenses are enough to 'take hits like a champ'

    Actually, it does affect damage. It doesn't matter how you outspeed the opponent, but on if you DO outspeed.
    Yes, how much you outspeed does matter. Get your points straight before posting. I've mentioned this before to you via VM, but please post more that one liners. They are annoying and come off as nothing more than you complaining rather than serious arguements. Even if you do argue, please use proper fact and some amount of logic other than 'I don't think so'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    110/123/65/100/65/65. I don't know about you, but I don't think 65 Defenses are enough to 'take hits like a champ'


    Yes, how much you outspeed does matter. Get your points straight before posting. I've mentioned this before to you via VM, but please post more that one liners. They are annoying and come off as nothing more than you complaining rather than serious arguements. Even if you do argue, please use proper fact and some amount of logic other than 'I don't think so'.
    Sorry if my post confused you. Let me put it this way.
    Your speed has to outspeed the opponents. It doesn't matter whether it is natural speed or speed gained through lowering a pokemon's speed stat. T Wave still cuts their speed by 75%, so Electro Ball DOES get a boost in power. Saying how and how much are two different things. The fact remains that Electro Ball can be boosted by reducing the foe's speed as well.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
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  6. #381
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    110/123/65/100/65/65. I don't know about you, but I don't think 65 Defenses are enough to 'take hits like a champ'
    For the record, 110/65/65 defences is ever so slightly less than Arcanine who has 90/80/80 defences. It's pretty decent, but Emboar is quite slow and will be taking hits all day, making its defences feel quite average in practice.

    As for Electro Ball, you need to be over twice as fast as the opponent for it to hit for 80. Without Thunder Wave its a pretty average STAB, and for it to be good you have to waste a turn against every opponent you face to use Thunder Wave.
    Anyway, as I said before no pokemon will be re-tiered right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    For the record, 110/65/65 defences is ever so slightly less than Arcanine who has 90/80/80 defences. It's pretty decent, but Emboar is quite slow and will be taking hits all day, making its defences feel quite average in practice.

    As for Electro Ball, you need to be over twice as fast as the opponent for it to hit for 80. Without Thunder Wave its a pretty average STAB, and for it to be good you have to waste a turn against every opponent you face to use Thunder Wave.
    Anyway, as I said before no pokemon will be re-tiered right now.
    I wasn't arguing its viability; only its mechanics.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    As for Electro Ball, you need to be over twice as fast as the opponent for it to hit for 80. Without Thunder Wave its a pretty average STAB, and for it to be good you have to waste a turn against every opponent you face to use Thunder Wave.
    It's not really a waste if you go faster the next turn...
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  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    It's not really a waste if you go faster the next turn...
    I suppose spend would be a better verb to use. Still, it does take up more turns, more time and hurts Ampharos' efficiency at defeating opponents.

    Ferrothorn for Low-Mid[3/3]. That shallow movepool really hurts it.

    Emolga for Low [3/3]. Forgot to actually vote first time round.

    might as well complete the last of the monkeys....

    Simisear - Lower-Middle Tier
    Availability - Midgame(Lostlorn Forest)
    Notable Moves - Flamethrower, Low Kick, Superpower, Fire Punch, Brick Break, Acrobatics, Rock Slide, Yawn, Crunch, Work Up
    Stats - Great speed, good offences, average HP, low defences

    - Description -

    +Can be evolved immediately after capture.
    +Comes with good STAB in Flame Burst
    -Limited movepool beyond Fire and Fighting moves
    -No notable advantages in any major battles.
    -Flame Burst isn't the most powerful move by the late-game meaning Simisear becomes obsolete earlier.

    Basically the same as the other monkeys but with no unique attributes. Simisear definitely gets the short end of the stick compared to the other monkeys.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 28th November 2012 at 8:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  10. #385
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    It's still better to use Thunderbolt to have the same amount of base power than use a turn to T-Wave a Pokemon that doesn't even need to be to defeat it. IMO, only in legendary battles is it worth paralyzing the foe.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    It's still better to use Thunderbolt to have the same amount of base power than use a turn to T-Wave a Pokemon that doesn't even need to be to defeat it. IMO, only in legendary battles is it worth paralyzing the foe.
    I'm not saying that Thunderbolt is better than Electro Ball. I'm just saying that Electro Ball doesn't suck and is a pretty good move on something that uses paralysis as much as Ampharos does, and therefore shouldn't be a big minus when judging its midgame prowess.
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
    Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

    I speedrun DS Pokémon games. Currently, I speedrun Pokémon White 2, and I've also ran Pokémon Pearl in the past. If you want to see Pokémon games pushed to their limits (or if you want to do so yourself!), check out the Pokémon Speedruns website, and if you want to watch me, catch me on my Twitch channel.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    It's still better to use Thunderbolt to have the same amount of base power than use a turn to T-Wave a Pokemon that doesn't even need to be to defeat it. IMO, only in legendary battles is it worth paralyzing the foe.
    Except you don't have Thunderbolt until right before the E4.

    Again, you're tiering based on end-game. Tiering should be conducted based on whole-game.

  13. #388
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    Oops, mean Discharge lol.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
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  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalPotato View Post
    I'm not saying that Thunderbolt is better than Electro Ball. I'm just saying that Electro Ball doesn't suck and is a pretty good move on something that uses paralysis as much as Ampharos does, and therefore shouldn't be a big minus when judging its midgame prowess.
    Discharge will still outdamage Electro Ball most of the time. Besides, Ampharos is already so slow that T-Wave won't make it fast enough for Electro ball to be worth it.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
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  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by azeem40 View Post
    Discharge will still outdamage Electro Ball most of the time. Besides, Ampharos is already so slow that T-Wave won't make it fast enough for Electro ball to be worth it.
    Can you please actually think and read the above posts carefully before making a post yourself? It's ridiculously annoying to have to correct you every time after you make post. As everyone has said ten times over, Electro Ball has to be used as your STAB move until Lv 40 when you get Discharge; nobody is saying Electro Ball is better than Discharge, just that it's not that bad a STAB until Ampharos learns Discharge. :/

    [1/3] Simisear for lower-mid. It doesn't really get anything special at all :s

  16. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhanton View Post
    Can you please actually think and read the above posts carefully before making a post yourself? It's ridiculously annoying to have to correct you every time after you make post. As everyone has said ten times over, Electro Ball has to be used as your STAB move until Lv 40 when you get Discharge; nobody is saying Electro Ball is better than Discharge, just that it's not that bad a STAB until Ampharos learns Discharge. :/

    [1/3] Simisear for lower-mid. It doesn't really get anything special at all :s
    I do read the posts, but it seems I am not welcomed here.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
    Paper Trail.

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    Trying to make the thread move forward (too many posts behind, so I'm using the list on the OP. Sorry if someone voted already before this).


    Seviper - Low [2/3] (EagleEye, Aurawarrior8) [3/3] Low. It's not that bad, it gets Glare, Poison Fang, Crunch, Dig, etc. as soon as you catch it and even better options in Aqua Tail, Giga Drain, Flamethrower later... but I guess crappy speed combined with crappy bulk and typing does hurt it.

    Volcarona - Middle [1/3] (Aurawarrior8) [1/3] Upper Middle. You can catch one at level 35, so even if it doesn't have the best moves right off the bat, you can just hold on a couple levels until Lentimas (Signal Beam) and Undella (Fire Blast). Wild pokemon around these areas are still around level 35, so just because you caught it earlier doesn't mean it will lag behind... After it gets those two moves it becomes a monster with massive Special Attack and awesome special def and speed. Quiver Dance is learnt at level 59, which you should comfortably hit by the time you're at the Elite Four. Sure it's a late bloomer but waaay far from mediocre.

    Walrein - Lower Middle [1/3] (zhanton) / Middle [2/3] (FoldingScreen, Aurawarrior8) Middle [3/3]. Just for the late evolution I guess. It's pretty strong and useful on a lot of battles.

    Ferrothorn - Lower Middle [2/3] (zhanton, Grumpy Snorlax) [1/3] Upper Middle. Once again, pretty underrated. Ferroseed is not the best thing ever, but it's definitely easier to train up than most stage 1's... It can take on literally anything. Once evolved it's plain awesome, Power Whip and Gyro Ball are two VERY strong moves, Bulldoze might seem weak but it fits perfectly as it hits super-effectively almost everything that resists its dual STAB. Curse as a last slot move is a pretty solid option. Doesn't need tutors or anything, has got awesome stats and typing, why so low? Even if it's slow most hits will do as much as Leftovers will heal you. If you think Gyro Ball is unreliable, you can run Iron Head and Thunder Wave instead of Curse. Sure, slow things are annoying ingame but there ARE exceptions. From personal experience, it's just so easy to use on pretty much everything that's not a fire type. I'd list all the important battles this thing can take on solo, but it will be quicker to list what Ferrothorn can NOT take on. Chauntal's Chandelure, Marshall (it's a Steel type after all), Iris's Hydreigon (it has Flamethrower).

    Emolga - Low [2/3] (zhanton, FoldingScreen) Bottom [1/3]. Lol what? 75/75 offenses with 55/60/60 defenses? I'd rather use a Watchog than this thing. I would also like to mention that you've got an 1/10 chance to meet up with one on the shaking grass, which WILL take a while.

    Cofagrigus - Lower Middle [1/3] (zhanton) Low [1/3]. This is just a pain to use. Same rating as Ferrothorn is questionable at best. Shadow Ball is pretty much your only offensive option (then Energy Ball a little later, and Ghost/Grass is a pretty damn lame combination), pure ghost is OK but not at all exciting, all the good moves are post-game material. Once again, from personal experience, this is something I'd never recommend. Easily the worst ghost type in the game after Banette.

    Mandibuzz - Low [2/3] (zhanton, Grumpy Snorlax) Low [3/3]. Complete lack of offensive presence.

    Simisage - Middle [2/3] (zhanton, FoldingScreen) Middle [3/3]. Yeah, why not. It's pretty solid early on and that's the only redeeming factor.

    Simipour - Upper Middle [1/3] (Aurawarrior8) Upper middle[2/3]. I'm assuming, being one tier above Simisage is because of Ice Punch? Fair enough.

    Also, [2/3] Lower Middle for Simisear. Lots of better Fire types can be caught earlier.


    And about Emboar/Ampharos since someone was discussing them

    Amphy is just a much worse choice compared to Magnezone. No real reasons to use one, it's not BAD but the tiering is OK imho.

    Emboar is the only fire type getting Flame Charge before the Elite 4 if I recall correctly (it's now a post-game TM), so that is something to consider. You can easily run a powerful mixed set with Flame Charge/Fire Blast/Superpower/filler (electric or rock move preferred), and +1 speed is all it needs. I'm okay with its tiering as well.
    Last edited by edonub; 29th November 2012 at 6:14 AM.

  18. #393
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    He does. It learns Flame Charge as a Tepig. I [3/3] Simipour. Scald makes up somewhat for its pitiful Def, and it gets good coverage moves in the elemental punches.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

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    Klinklang - Bottom tier
    Availability - Midgame(Chargestone cave)
    Notable Moves - Gear Grind, Return, Shift Gear, Wild Charge, Thunder Wave, Automotize
    Stats - Good attack, speed and spdef, great defence, mediocre HP and Spatk

    - Description -

    +Gets a great STAB in Gear Grind immediately.
    -Very shallow movepool.
    -Late evolution at lvl 38 from Klink who has terrible stats for that point in the game.
    -Another late evo from Klang at lvl 49 who has decent stats but many other pokemon are already fully evolved.
    -Doesn't get important moves like Wild Charge or Shift Gear until very late in the game.


    Yeah, Klinklang is just wholly unremarkable at every stage of its life, apart from being half-decent as a Klinklang in the endgame. And it has 3 usable physical attacks.

    Emolga - Low [2/3] (zhanton, FoldingScreen) Bottom [1/3]. Lol what? 75/75 offenses with 55/60/60 defenses? I'd rather use a Watchog than this thing.
    I have to say I agree with this. Emolga is fairly good once you get it, but as soon as it hits the 30s it quickly deteriorates to becoming as bad as anything in Bottom. The only real argument to keep it out of Bottom is Acrobatics, but its almost irrelevant when other flying types get it a mere 5-6 levels later at the Mistralton gym.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 29th November 2012 at 7:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  20. #395
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    Why is Simipour's Ice Punch being talked up so much? Literally the only thing that I can see it as a big help for is Drayden's Flygon (Crunch, Shadow Claw and Rock Slide all hit for similar power against Drifblim and Sigilyph). Simipour is too frail to KO anything else major with it before being KOd back. And if you think about random Grass-types... well, Acrobatics is better against them. Ice Punch seems to be the main reason why it's being put in Upper Middle, but I can't see it. I would be willing to reconsider my position if someone were to tell me what the appeal of the move is.

    Klinklang seems like it should go in Bottom. [1/3] on that.
    Last edited by TotalPotato; 30th November 2012 at 12:00 AM.
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
    Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

    I speedrun DS Pokémon games. Currently, I speedrun Pokémon White 2, and I've also ran Pokémon Pearl in the past. If you want to see Pokémon games pushed to their limits (or if you want to do so yourself!), check out the Pokémon Speedruns website, and if you want to watch me, catch me on my Twitch channel.

  21. #396
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    Well, it's way better than its fire and grass counterparts in typing and attacking move (Surf > Seed bomb/Flame Burst). It is also the most reliable water type until you can evolve a frillish/get a starmie etc (maybe there's Azumarill, but I don't really like it and the two pokes serve completely different roles). Ice Punch might not be the best thing ever, but it gives you ice coverage which is something you WILL lack for quite some time.
    Of course it falls behind in the end, but 98/98 offenses with 101 base speed are pretty solid, especially considering you can evolve it as soon as you get it.
    For the record, my rash simipour could onehit flygon AND haxorus, but not druddigon (maybe adamant or any +att nature would work? dunno. He will Dragon Tail you anyway, and be at a range where anything can take it down).
    On the elite 4, it works on a decent amount of pokes (chandelure/krookodile/aggron/anything weak to water, being fast and able to OHKO), so it's not COMPLETELY useless. Sure, it's not even that great: there's a reason why Starmie is a tier higher despite it being found quite later in the game and serving a similar role with some obvious flaws (for example it lacks BoltBeam until right before the Elite4, effectively having inferior coverage compared to Simipour up to that point).
    from my experience, Scald before and Surf later will let you OHKO pretty much any neutral poke up to high 3x/low 4x. And it does have the good coverage. Upper Middle suits it fine.

    Haven't tested out Klinklang so I'm not sure if it's bottom material. Well, it doesn't even get Iron Head (and 100/85 is not reliable in my book as a main STAB). Wild Charge has Recoil. Special electric moves lack STAB and usable special attack. Return is your only other decent option for coverage. Yeah, I'd go for Bottom [1/3] but I might change my mind if someone that tried it can say something.
    Being stuck as a Klink up to lv38 and final form at level 49 sucks.
    Last edited by edonub; 30th November 2012 at 1:49 AM.

  22. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by edonub View Post
    For the record, my rash simipour could onehit flygon AND haxorus, but not druddigon (maybe adamant or any +att nature would work? dunno. He will Dragon Tail you anyway, and be at a range where anything can take it down).
    This surprised me (the ability to one-hit KO Haxorus, that is). What level was it?
    100% of information in signatures on this forum involving percentages is false. If you feel as cheated by this atrocity as I do, don't you dare copy this into your signature.
    Hold on... if this percentage was correct at the time of print, that means the actual percentage of false information is less than 100% if this signature is included. Which means that... no! I've become a slave to the system!!

    I speedrun DS Pokémon games. Currently, I speedrun Pokémon White 2, and I've also ran Pokémon Pearl in the past. If you want to see Pokémon games pushed to their limits (or if you want to do so yourself!), check out the Pokémon Speedruns website, and if you want to watch me, catch me on my Twitch channel.

  23. #398
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    53 with Expert Belt, one level above Haxorus in challenge mode

    I honestly don't see Drayden's Haxorus as a problem anyway. 90% of the time it will try to set up on you with Dragon Dance, only to use Dragon Tail on the next turn (great combo, HUH). As long as you can 2hit ko him, you're fine with pretty much anything that's not weak to its coverage moves (because it will not use Dragon Tail and outspeed you after the DD).
    Last edited by edonub; 30th November 2012 at 3:43 AM.

  24. #399
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    Beartic for Low [3/3].

    Gothitelle - Low Tier
    Availability - Midgame(Route 5, B2)
    Notable Moves - Psyshock, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Signal Beam
    Stats - Low speed and attack, mediocre HP, good spatk and def, great spdef

    - Description -

    +Gets great STAB in Psyshock early.
    -Lacking coverage, augmented because of the lack of access to Focus Blast before the Elite 4.
    -With no way to boost its attack until postgame, it will falter lategame because of its not quite brilliant Spatk.
    -Little defensive/support options either.
    -Slow.

    Nothing particularly distinctive for either pros or cons except Gothitelle just needs...more. Everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  25. #400
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    This proves how VASTLY different in-game is. Cuz otherwise, Gothitelle is awesome in competitive.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
    Paper Trail.

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