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Thread: •Official B2/W2 In-Game Tiers• * READ THE OP *

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctourniquet View Post
    i'd like to suggest changing darmanitan from top tier to high tier. here's why:

    • "Perfect availability, completely destroying Burgh" - i disagree with this, simply because you get it as a darumaka which doesn't destroy anything. darmanitan would nail him, sure, but darumaka probably won't be able to touch a gym leader just after being caught - especially when it won't actually get fire punch unless you're prepared to go to the effort of training it several levels. not to mention the fact that it can only deal with two of burugh's pokémon; dwebble still probably beats it. it'd be more time efficient to just have the rest of your team slightly stronger and to catch darumaka after you've beaten the gym honestly. ...which brings me onto the next point,

    • it's caught as darumaka. and stays that way for almost 15-20 levels, depending on where exactly you catch it. that just screams of a training nightmare especially when, at this early point in the game, you've got access to neither the lucky egg nor the exp share. it almost seems like something which'd just be a hassle and end up boxed until you're able to actually use training items on it. even worse, darumaka has hustle of all abilities to deal with. it's really hard to train early game.

    • it's not got much use in gyms. as a darumaka, it's probably not going to be doing anything particularly special against elesa and darminitan will have nightmares with clay. it's not bad against skyla, but falls flat on its face when confronted with dragons against draydon and is utterly destroyed by marlon.

    • darminitan has unsuitable stabs. it's got a monster attack stat but all it's really able to do with it is use the half-arsed fire punch or totally over the top flare blitz - neither of which do it any favours at all. it's simply not got the bulk and has too relentless an attack stat to constantly use flare blitz and fire punch really drags it down.

    • mediocre supporting attacks. hammer arm really hinders it since it has a decent speed but horrible defences and potential recoil from flare blitz; as such it honestly can't afford to be slowed down. rock slide is alright but lacking in accuracy and i don't really know how actually accessible that move is anyway. bulldoze is alright but does little to complement its typing and is lackluster in power. it's more or less relying 90% of the time on one of its two flawed stabs.

    basically what i'm seeing here is a pokémon which, despite its monster attack stat, is hindered by an inflexible and shaky movepool which has only mediocre use through gyms and is a nightmare to get in the first place. its attack stat alone stops me from wanting to bring it lower but honestly i'm seeing it as a pokémon suited to mid-late game which is simply caught early. i'd say to shift it to high.
    The points you make are fair. But I still think darmanitan deserves a place in the Top tier.

    Sheer force Couple this with flare blitz and you'll be hitting everything that even resist fire moves with atleast 2 hits. This move as well as STAB has 180 power. Fire punch definitely is not half arsed considering 140 attack + sheer force + STAB. If anything flare blitz is over kill and fire punch is what you can rely on.

    Burgh Last time I checked leavanny is 4x weak against fire moves. Heck if you hit it with a lit match it would crumple, so even if you didn't want to grind Hustle boosted fire fang would do. You can catch one in route 4 at level 17, a few levels lower than what your party Pokemon will be. After a couple trainers it'll be level 22, it'll learn fire punch which is the strongest fire move you can get this early.

    Level 35 is not a ridiculous time for it to evolve, Drilbur gets earthquake at level 33 and then you can evolve it so its hardly much of an effort. Flare blitz is a couple levels after and this paired rock slide/headbutt is the only moves you need both boosted by sheer force. I think its unfair to say rock slide's accuracy makes it unreliable as its only 90% hardly crippling 70%.

    I think it deserves TOP because its the only Fire pokemon to really pack any sort of a punch and definitely out-tiers any Pokemon in HIGH because of how hard it can hit. It comes early in the game and is a pokemon that will be hitting hard all the way to the end of the E4. Despite not being overly useful in the gyms it will still be hitting trainers/team plasma like a truck.
    Last edited by Dragoniteftw; 28th October 2012 at 11:15 PM.

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  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw
    Despite not being overly useful in the gyms it will still be hitting trainers/team plasma like a truck.
    IMO this is enough of an issue to drop him a tier. Sure, there are no fire types in top, but he's not really outclassing anything in upper mid either. Arcanine has better defenses, especially with Intimidate. I feel that his lack of usefulness in the gyms, coupled with low defenses make him a candidate for high.

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  3. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw View Post
    Sheer force Couple this with flare blitz and you'll be hitting everything that even resist fire moves with atleast 2 hits. This move as well as STAB has 180 power. Fire punch definitely is not half arsed considering 140 attack + sheer force + STAB. If anything flare blitz is over kill and fire punch is what you can rely on.
    @ flare blitz, that doesn't at all solve the problem of the fact that it's killing itself with recoil. flare blitz on a pokémon this powerful is a durability killer, end of. it stops it from sweeping and thanks to its stats it's simply unable to tank - it can't take enough of a beating. with flare blitz the only thing its stab is useful for is nuking the occasional single enemy mon then switching out or changing move since its recoil is just too high. with regards to fire punch, yeah it's strong with those bonuses applied, but it's still not taking full advantage of the insane attack power here. it still does a good amount of damage but honestly probably doesn't hit that much harder than many other fire types, especially with the boosting available to some of them, and it really doesn't cover its other horrible weaknesses with a beefed up fire punch imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw View Post
    Burgh Last time I checked leavanny is 4x weak against fire moves. Heck if you hit it with a lit match it would crumple, so even if you didn't want to grind Hustle boosted fire fang would do. You can catch one in route 4 at level 17, a few levels lower than what your party Pokemon will be. After a couple trainers it'll be level 22, it'll learn fire punch which is the strongest fire move you can get this early.
    leavanny's pre-evo (whatever its name was lol) is probably killed in one hit but leavanny itself would stand a better chance. you're also forgetting the fact that hustle applied to a move which doesn't have perfect accuracy anyway gives you a pretty hefty chance of missing. and it still doesn't solve the dwebble problem i mentioned. and it still doesn't fare well in later gyms either. also it takes more than a 'couple of trainers' to bring it up by five levels to learn fire punch and on top of that it wouldn't even be able to beat multiple trainers alone - it'd need to switch out, further drawing out the process. it's better to catch one once you've got more trainers to work with - after the gym has been completed. you could reserve some earlier trainers to grind it against i guess but that's hassle. it's simply not that easy to get it up to level right before the gym starts. it's manageable, but not easy, so not top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw View Post
    Level 35 is not a ridiculous time for it to evolve, Drilbur gets earthquake at level 33 and then you can evolve it so its hardly much of an effort. Flare blitz is a couple levels after and this paired rock slide/headbutt is the only moves you need both boosted by sheer force. I think its unfair to say rock slide's accuracy makes it unreliable as its only 90% hardly crippling 70%.
    it's not a ridiculous time for it to evolve, but it is a pretty annoying one. darumaka is not easy to train because it, well, sucks. it doesn't become at all useful until it's evolved. drilbur has access to rock slide, hone claws and dig - attack boosted quakedge with 0% miss on rock slide after a hone claws usage - before evolving and for a prevo it also has fairly acceptable general stats. drilbur has legitimate use before it's evolved. darumaka can use shaky fire attacks before being finished off after a hit or two or being forced out due to lack of coverage. drilbur simply runs circles around darumaka before being evolved so it's not really a valid comparison to make. with darumaka you've got to put up with a useless little blob until it's evolved and that's not a characteristic of a top tier pokémon at all. as for the accuracy thing, 90% is alright but given hax and the fact that this mon simply can't afford to miss, it's not safe at all imo. it's fine for a bit of coverage but not something i'd at all want to rely on if avoidable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw View Post
    I think it deserves TOP because its the only Fire pokemon to really pack any sort of a punch and definitely out-tiers any Pokemon in HIGH because of how hard it can hit. It comes early in the game and is a pokemon that will be hitting hard all the way to the end of the E4. Despite not being overly useful in the gyms it will still be hitting trainers/team plasma like a truck.
    honestly, with normal trainers and plasma grunts, most stuff middle and above will be hitting pretty hard. the stuff setting a pokémon into top tier should be the big battles, not the common ones. and once again, until you've grinded it up a little bit to evolve it, it's not even dealing with petty battles very well.

    i just don't see a way this thing can survive in the environment where it's caught easily enough to make it top tier. it's a hassle to train and has limited uses before it evolves. once it's evolved it needs further training anyway to have a proper movepool. it can't afford to miss, it can't afford to be slowed down, and is worn down quickly by the move you really want to use on it - flare blitz. the environment where it shines is later game where you need a nukemon. before then, when you're crawling through tons of trainers and don't want to be visiting pokémon centres every five minutes, it's awkward and slows you down. for these reasons i don't see it as a top tier pokémon at all.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    it can't afford to miss, it can't afford to be slowed down, and is worn down quickly by the move you really want to use on it - flare blitz. the environment where it shines is later game where you need a nukemon. before then, when you're crawling through tons of trainers and don't want to be visiting pokémon centres every five minutes, it's awkward and slows you down. for these reasons i don't see it as a top tier pokémon at all.
    Pretty much this, Darumakka is weak and super difficult to train because of its awful defenses. Most of the pkmn in top are great pre-evolution, and Darumakka just can't claim that.

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  5. #180
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    Flare blitz only has 5pp its not like you are going to be spamming it. Fire punch should be your go to move anyway as with sheer force it'll have 100bp before STAB. I don't think its justifiable saying that flare blitz lets this guy down as fire punch can do the job for the most part. Besides it can send off atleast 3 flare blitz with 105 base HP. Maybe high tier would be more appropriate but seems like it outclasses pokemon in HIGH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctourniquet View Post
    i'd like to suggest changing darmanitan from top tier to high tier. here's why:

    • "Perfect availability, completely destroying Burgh" - i disagree with this, simply because you get it as a darumaka which doesn't destroy anything. darmanitan would nail him, sure, but darumaka probably won't be able to touch a gym leader just after being caught - especially when it won't actually get fire punch unless you're prepared to go to the effort of training it several levels. not to mention the fact that it can only deal with two of burugh's pokémon; dwebble still probably beats it. it'd be more time efficient to just have the rest of your team slightly stronger and to catch darumaka after you've beaten the gym honestly. ...which brings me onto the next point,
    So Hustle boosted Fire Fang isn't somehow going to Burn the x4 weak Swadloon/Leavanny to the Ground.

    • it's caught as darumaka. and stays that way for almost 15-20 levels, depending on where exactly you catch it. that just screams of a training nightmare especially when, at this early point in the game, you've got access to neither the lucky egg nor the exp share. it almost seems like something which'd just be a hassle and end up boxed until you're able to actually use training items on it. even worse, darumaka has hustle of all abilities to deal with. it's really hard to train early game.
    True that, its defences are nothing to write home about, but its literally the hardest hitting thing in the game at that point. He hits harder than Conkeldurr.

    • it's not got much use in gyms. as a darumaka, it's probably not going to be doing anything particularly special against elesa and darminitan will have nightmares with clay. it's not bad against skyla, but falls flat on its face when confronted with dragons against draydon and is utterly destroyed by marlon.
    Agreed. Fire types got an unlucky draw with major battles. Apart from destroying Burgh and Colress he hasn't got much going for him.

    • darminitan has unsuitable stabs. it's got a monster attack stat but all it's really able to do with it is use the half-arsed fire punch or totally over the top flare blitz - neither of which do it any favours at all. it's simply not got the bulk and has too relentless an attack stat to constantly use flare blitz and fire punch really drags it down.
    It is worth mentioning that Flare Blitz takes 33% of the HP damage done and then subtracts that as recoil. Darmanitan's HP is high at 105, so that effect is mitigated. It's also stronger than Reshiram's Blue Flare.
    I thing you being too hard on Fire Punch. It's basically a Fire type Earthquake thanks to Sheer Force.

    • mediocre supporting attacks. hammer arm really hinders it since it has a decent speed but horrible defences and potential recoil from flare blitz; as such it honestly can't afford to be slowed down. rock slide is alright but lacking in accuracy and i don't really know how actually accessible that move is anyway. bulldoze is alright but does little to complement its typing and is lackluster in power. it's more or less relying 90% of the time on one of its two flawed stabs.
    Well Rock Slide is found on Mistralton Cave's 2nd floor, for which you need Strength, Surf and Flash. All you need is an HM slave and some repels.

    basically what i'm seeing here is a pokémon which, despite its monster attack stat, is hindered by an inflexible and shaky movepool which has only mediocre use through gyms and is a nightmare to get in the first place. its attack stat alone stops me from wanting to bring it lower but honestly i'm seeing it as a pokémon suited to mid-late game which is simply caught early. i'd say to shift it to high.
    You do bring up some valid points. Problem is, every time I consider it for high I remember it has the 2nd strongest unboosted attack in the game in the form of Flare Blitz. Do you know what 1st is? Choice Band Adamant Snorlax's Selfde-friggin'-struct.


    In other news: Welcome back, Alex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoniteftw
    Flare blitz only has 5pp its not like you are going to be spamming it
    It has 15 PP.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 29th October 2012 at 1:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
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  7. #182
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    oops my bad.

    And I agree I just can't let it go to HIGH tier with its amazing power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    So Hustle boosted Fire Fang isn't somehow going to Burn the x4 weak Swadloon/Leavanny to the Ground.
    not when it has a nasty chance of missing, you're likely at a level disadvantage, and leavanny is able to outspeed and hit fairly hard. it's not a chance i'd want to take. yeah it's 4x effective but it's also an under-levelled and pretty generally poor prevo trying to drop an unreliable move. i don't trust those chances at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    True that, its defences are nothing to write home about, but its literally the hardest hitting thing in the game at that point. He hits harder than Conkeldurr.
    hard-hitting isn't everything though. if it was, azumarill would be top tier by now, as would more or less anything with a choice item stuck on it, or anything which can spend a turn swords dancing. you know that as well as anyone here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    It is worth mentioning that Flare Blitz takes 33% of the HP damage done and then subtracts that as recoil. Darmanitan's HP is high at 105, so that effect is mitigated. It's also stronger than Reshiram's Blue Flare.
    I thing you being too hard on Fire Punch. It's basically a Fire type Earthquake thanks to Sheer Force.
    fiuwehfiuwei THIRTY THREE PERCENT? jesus christ i was under the impression that it was only 20%. this is just making it an even bigger no from me lol. 105 base hp is respectable, yes, but even still when you're likely ohkoing everything it'll only last you three or four turns. five if you're extremely lucky - meaning that it technically is unable to even sweep a team and come out of it alive. a top-tier fast attacker, which is what this thing's being suggested as, should be able to finish off a team only minorly damaged. regarding fire punch, i guess i am being pretty hard on it and maybe i am under-estimating how powerful it is, but it definitely doesn't make up for this pokémon's other drawbacks in my eyes. not worth it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    Well Rock Slide is found on Mistralton Cave's 2nd floor, for which you need Strength, Surf and Flash. All you need is an HM slave and some repels.
    isn't surf fairly late-game though? meaning that for a while you don't have that method of attack? if not then i retract the statement about rock slide being hard to get, although i still don't really like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    You do bring up some valid points. Problem is, every time I consider it for high I remember it has the 2nd strongest unboosted attack in the game in the form of Flare Blitz. Do you know what 1st is? Choice Band Adamant Snorlax's Selfde-friggin'-struct.
    yeah, it's strong, but see above - full-on power isn't everything at all and it's so easily surpassed by any booster that can take a hit or two. i really think that in general stuff with monster attack stats but no means of doing very much else is overrated. useful, hence why i'm saying high, but overrated. darminitan's insane attack stat really isn't making up for its awful downfalls here - the way i see it, that's all it is: a very, very high attack stat with a load of awkwardness and drawbacks attached. competitively it's amazing and for serious in-game it's pretty good too but for actual, general use? it's a glass cannon, i believe the term was - hits hard and dies quickly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aurawarrior8 View Post
    In other news: Welcome back, Alex.
    thanks bro. :]

    Flare blitz only has 5pp its not like you are going to be spamming it. Fire punch should be your go to move anyway as with sheer force it'll have 100bp before STAB. I don't think its justifiable saying that flare blitz lets this guy down as fire punch can do the job for the most part. Besides it can send off atleast 3 flare blitz with 105 base HP. Maybe high tier would be more appropriate but seems like it outclasses pokemon in HIGH.
    the only way to have the flexibility of picking between these two moves is to have them both on the same set... and any pokémon required to run two attacking moves of the same type, with a few exceptions, is really not top tier. that's desperation, not versatility. and really a pokémon that can only comfortably land three hits is pretty limited imo. so... yeah, while it outclasses some of the high tier definitely, not every pokémon in a tier is going to be as good as every other pokémon in that tier. i still feel like high is the best place for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctourniquet
    isn't surf fairly late-game though? meaning that for a while you don't have that method of attack? if not then i retract the statement about rock slide being hard to get, although i still don't really like it.
    You get it on Route 6, which is just before Mistralton Cave.

    fiuwehfiuwei THIRTY THREE PERCENT? jesus christ i was under the impression that it was only 20%. this is just making it an even bigger no from me lol. 105 base hp is respectable, yes, but even still when you're likely ohkoing everything it'll only last you three or four turns. five if you're extremely lucky - meaning that it technically is unable to even sweep a team and come out of it alive. a top-tier fast attacker, which is what this thing's being suggested as, should be able to finish off a team only minorly damaged.
    As a Darumaka, because of accuracy its viability is heavily debatable. However as a Darmanitan its viability depends on how you view suicidal nukes like this guy. He has the second strongest attack in the game, but he'll only survive 4 turns anyway if he spams Flare Blitz.
    But, should you even expect it(or anything really) to sweep entire 6-pokemon teams? 3-4 pokemon KOed/crippled is a damn big hole, allowing the other 5 to clean up. Not to mention that the vast majority of the game's big battles are 4 pokemon or less.

    And now I feel bit stupid because my entire argument can be condensed into 'but STAB Sheer Force Flare Blitz off a base 140 Atk is the awesomesauce fo-shizzle, ma zoppity bro-bizzle'...



    Its times like this that make me think whether we could/should tier pokemon within their own tiers. So we could put Darmanitan at the bottom of Top tier/top of High tier and Delibird and the very bottom of bottom and so on.
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    It is a good revenge killer after one of your Pokemon dies, but alone as a Darumaka for the next few gyms, it will die way too easily. I should know. I trained one myself.
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    Heyy it's Alex! We (or at least I) missed you!
    *
    yeah, it's strong, but see above - full-on power isn't everything at all and it's so easily surpassed by any booster that can take a hit or two. i really think that in general stuff with monster attack stats but no means of doing very much else is overrated. useful, hence why i'm saying high, but overrated. darminitan's insane attack stat really isn't making up for its awful downfalls here - the way i see it, that's all it is: a very, very high attack stat with a load of awkwardness and drawbacks attached. competitively it's amazing and for serious in-game it's pretty good too but for actual, general use? it's a glass cannon, i believe the term was - hits hard and dies quickly.
    it can't afford to miss, it can't afford to be slowed down, and is worn down quickly by the move you really want to use on it - flare blitz. the environment where it shines is later game where you need a nukemon. before then, when you're crawling through tons of trainers and don't want to be visiting pokémon centres every five minutes, it's awkward and slows you down. for these reasons i don't see it as a top tier pokémon at all.
    This is pretty much everything that needs to be said. In hindsight, the fact that we didn't have any other Top-Tier Pokemon to compare it to may have led to a possible mis-tiering. Raw power doesn't compensate for being as frail as heck, as Alex has so wonderfully worded. So yeah, I'd say High at the end of the day.

    That being said, I'd like to refrain from re-tiering just yet. I've discussed this with Aura, and I'd like to leave things as they are until we're done with the initial tiering. This way, it'll be much easier to make future mistakes like this one.

    Also concering Alex being CP'd. I'd like to give him a [2/3]. He was the single most helpful person who helped with the original BW Tiers and is arguably the best theorymonner on the forums.
    Last edited by Tsumiki; 29th October 2012 at 10:57 AM.

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    Azumarill doesn't have base 95 speed and it needs to breed (post-game) for Aqua Jet to compensate for that. It lacks boosting moves, needs tutors for coverage (Ice Punch) and/or has to use Superpower which basically forces you to switch. And it's still High
    Darmanitan gets a pseudo quake/edge combo with Rock Slide and Bulldoze both being boosted by Sheer Force not to mention Fire Punch is as strong as a physical Flamethrower. Flare Blitz has base 240 power after STAB and Sheer Force. You don't even NEED it for most battles, excluding pokes like Cofagrigus which WILL get oneshot at similar levels.
    Even in competitive battling, Darmanitan is not OU simply because 95 speed is not enough and because lolrainteams, but ingame it's actually very, very high and there's no such thing as drizzle Politoed. It's actually the fastest of the Top tier so far.
    Of course it doesn't have good bulk, typing and movepool, but heck, if you want 145 attack, 95 speed, good bulk typing and movepool go catch a Rayquaza. Lol

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    But unlike Darmanitan, Azumarril gets fantastic earlygame due to early evolution and a STAB at very low levels. It also has the bulk that lets it take a couple of hits, something that Darmanitan cannot claim. You get 10 free shards for Ice punch anyway, so that isn't an issue.

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    Alex for cert [3/3].

    Anyway, since we're probably leaving re-tiers until later:

    Scrafty - Upper Middle
    Availability - Early-Mid(Route 4)
    Notable Moves - Drain Punch, Crunch, Hi Jump Kick, Rock Slide, Ice Punch, Bulk Up
    Stats - Excellent defences, good attack, low HP and Speed.

    - Description -

    +STABs are only resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak
    +Can setup with Dragon Dance or Bulk Up.
    +Can take on the entire E4 bar Marshall.
    +Gets Hi Jump Kick fairly early at lvl 31.
    +Has 2 excellent abilities in Shed Skin and Moxie.
    -Lags behind horribly as its stuck as a Scrafty until the late game.
    -Not much use in any major battles apart from Team Plasma.

    Without his setup moves and being stuck as a Scraggy until late in the game he can't do too much.

    EDIT: Well with those abilities I doubt he'll as low as Middle.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 30th October 2012 at 3:30 PM.
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    I'd say Upper-Mid for Scrafty. The fact that it's STABs get near perfect neutral coverage is a plus. It also has bulk+drain punch to make counteract it's low spe to some extent. It also OHKOs Kyurem with hjk if anybody cares x)

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    ^I thought Bulk Up came from PWT, but since it gets it from the Pokemart in opelucid it does make Scrafty much more viable.


    I'll put Lilligant in High [1/3]. The fact it needs 1-3 turns to setup and has a near nonexistent movepool really hurts it, but after said setup in can plow through almost anything with Petal Dance.

    I'm going to go ahead and say Probopass for Lower-Mid[1/3]. The Steel typing lends a ton of resistances and it has a fairly impressive levelup movepool, but without recovery or boosting moves it will have a lot of trouble getting through opponents.

    (Yes these were already posted, I'm just bringing them back under the spotlight.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
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    [2/3] For (Pro)bopass in lower mid. His typing lends him some great resistances, even after the two 4x weaknesses are taken into account. His movepool is good, he gets QuakeEdge and TBolt, which can hit most things for decent damage. His SpA may not be outstanding, but with good coverage, great defenses and good resistances I feel he's a good candidate for lower mid.

    Not so sure about Lilligant, the fact that it can destroy with Petal Dance doesn't make up for its serious movepool problems. I'll [1/3] for upper mid, as Aura said it needs set-up time, and even then it's only spamming a not-so-great typed attack /:

    [1/3] for Scrafty in upper mid. Great coverage with STABs, great stats and good typing let him have a pretty easy time throughout the game.

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    I 3/3 Probopass in lower mid. Its excellent defenses and resistances and gets perfect neutral coverage with QuakEdge/T Bolt combo.
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  19. #194

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    [2/3] for scrafty in upper mid. changed to [1/3] for high due to moxie. it's got many makings of a really strong pokémon but a couple of unpleasant drawbacks. it's got reliable dual stabs providing exceptional coverage, the ability to dual-boost itself in a useful way, the ability to recover health, an option to nuke opponents with hjk and the defences to take a fair beating. it's also able to dragon dance and potentially sweep. this is a really powerful and versatile pokémon. however, even though scraggy is acceptable as a prevo for a while, evolving at level 39 it's slaughtered by the great majority of the game. while it's now much easier to access bulk up, giving scrafty drain punch is a bit more awkward, and as such you've got the rather nasty situation of using the lesser brick break or the reckless hi jump kick in conjunction with bulk up. it's got plenty of power still but it's not easy to get a moveset on it which just works brilliantly. dragon dance is the same story - difficult to get via breeding. so what i make of it is a pokémon with a massive potential and incredible stab attacks but one that is simply too awkward to come up with the proper moveset for, provided that you can actually be bothered to get it as a scrafty in the first place. were it obtainable later game at higher levels i'd reconsider but at this point i feel the two drawbacks of a hard-to-get moveset and a somewhat late evo sit it at the very high end of upper mid. if someone else makes a convincing argument about something which i've missed, though, i'll happily change my vote to high. i remember once using this thing myself and it being absolutely incredible but it was also bred to have drain punch and dragon dance (iirc, could have been bulk up tho) right from the off - and god did it rely on those both.
    Last edited by Noctourniquet; 30th October 2012 at 3:16 PM.

  20. #195
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    Dragon Dance is out of the question as Breeding cannot be done until postgame iirc. It does get Drain Punch via Move Tutor but that's lategame (undella iirc). It should also be noted that it gets two fantastic abilities. Shed Skin really helps it as the tank it is by removing statuses that may give it trouble doing it's job and moxie is...moxie. Not sure if that's enough to bolster it up to High, but it's there.

    I've also editted the OP~~

  21. #196
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Definitely [2/3] Lilligant for High. I don't think much has changed for Lilligant between BW and BW2 - it's obtained slightly later (in Castelia, as opposed to that Forest place), which also means slightly less time as a Petili, it has a new Gym to demolish (Marlon) and one less that it's not good against (Brycen), but it struggles against Team Plasma and Colress. The B2 trade Petilil is brilliant as well. Sleep Powder + Leech Seed helps it to set up a few Quiver Dances and then it's just fine with Giga Drain or Petal Dance, speaking from personal experience.

    I'll [3/3] Lapras and [3/3] Jolteon for Upper and Lower Mid, respectively.

    [2/3] on Roserade for Upper Mid.

    Finally, I can't see Conkeldurr not being top. [1/3]

    And also, welcome back Alex!!
    Last edited by Zhanton; 30th October 2012 at 2:16 PM.

  22. #197

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    ^ thanks man :]

    oops totally overlooked moxie on scrafty. my bad. that gives it a form of boosting without the proper moveset - changing to [1/3] for scrafty in high.
    Last edited by Noctourniquet; 30th October 2012 at 3:17 PM.

  23. #198
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Northwest England
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    Since I can't approve anything since no-one else is presenting tierings moar tierings!

    Crobat - Middle Tier
    Availability - Early-Mid(Castelia Sewers)
    Notable Moves - Acrobatics, Cross Poison, Super Fang, Heat Wave, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Air Slash
    Stats - Fantastic speed, good attack, decent defences, average spatk

    - Description -

    +Appealing special movepool
    +Blistering speed gurantees it to move first
    +Can break through tough defensive pokemon with Super Fang.
    -Barren physical movepool, limited to its STABs and Return.
    -Without its Egg move, Nasty Plot, its good special movepool is wasted on its low spatk stat.
    -Not useful in any major battles bar Marshall and Burgh.


    Good statwise, but Poison/Flying is just not a very good type offensively and he is stuck with it unless he goes mixed(and be lacking in power).

    It does get Drain Punch via Move Tutor but that's lategame (undella iirc).
    [nitpick]Humilau city[/nitpick]



    Vanniluxe - Low Tier
    Availability - Very late(Giant Chasm)
    Notable Moves - Ice Beam, Signal Beam, Acid Armour
    Stats - Good spatk, noteworthy Attack and Spdef, decent elsewhere

    - Description -

    +Fairly useful against the champion as well as Grimsley and Caitlin with Signal Beam.
    -Non-existent movepool. Not including Hidden Power and Blizzard(+Hail) it has 2 attacks usable before the E4, maybe 3. It doesn't get much better after.
    -Found very late.


    Without Signal Beam this guy would be straight to bottom. His movepoop is absolutely horrendous. Its' a shame, because with a decent movepool and a nice secondary typing he could make something of those stats.
    Last edited by Aurath8; 30th October 2012 at 11:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huspoel View Post
    You're saying some really smart stuff there.

  24. #199
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    [1/3] for both Crobat and Vanniluxe. Vanilla also gets Flash Cannon so that should be mentioned.

  25. #200
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    Vanilluxe is good if you just need an Ice-Type.
    In order to understand my train of thoughts,
    you'll have to put yourself in my position. You can't expect me to think like you because my life ain't like yours; You know what I'm sayin?

    - TI, Ready For Whatever
    Paper Trail.

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