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Thread: Obesity, a growing problem?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Just trying to get people to do a little more debating and a little less throwing out personal stories with no related sources. "Facts" and "on TV" should never be in the same sentence...
    You have to consider that we have a lot more... well, crap... in our food now. The amount of chemicals, antibiotics, hormones, etc. in our food does have an effect on our health. Tons of normal things in our lives are full of endocrine disrupting chemicals that can have an impact on how our bodies work. My point in all my posts was that it's a bigger issue than just "people are lazy." There are a lot of factors to consider and it's different from person to person. One person may not want to change his or her lifestyle but there are people who have underlying disorders or predispositions. These are all things that should be considered by physicians when considering treatment options. Of course, proper nutrition and exercise should always be encouraged for everyone regardless of weight, but people look at overweight people with such a critical eye all the time. And while I agree that it's different if someone is massively overweight- They may be lazy, but many of them also use eating as a coping strategy and that's a mental/behavioral health thing. Mental health is something to consider as well.
    But, even tho the stuff nowadays is worse than what was there say 20 years ago, there was still stuff in the food. And it was not this bad was it? So, isn't it just as easy to assume that it's people's own decisions just as much as it is to assume thats it's environmental factors? People have done research pointing towards environmental factors yes, but has anyone actually asked these people what they thought? And even if they did, would a lot of them even admit it if they knew they could fall back on an excuse such as the food?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vatti View Post
    But, even tho the stuff nowadays is worse than what was there say 20 years ago, there was still stuff in the food. And it was not this bad was it? So, isn't it just as easy to assume that it's people's own decisions just as much as it is to assume thats it's environmental factors? People have done research pointing towards environmental factors yes, but has anyone actually asked these people what they thought? And even if they did, would a lot of them even admit it if they knew they could fall back on an excuse such as the food?
    I'm certainly not saying that people are never at fault for their obesity. I'm simply saying there are a lot of factors that come into play and it's rather ignorant to assume that every overweight person is the way they are because they're lazy and don't care. Also, many of these studies are done under controlled conditions with laboratory animals so participator bias doesn't come into play. If someone eats well and exercises regularly but still has trouble losing weight and keeping it off, there has to be more coming into play than simply "he/she is lazy." There's not one set answer for every overweight person's situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    I'm certainly not saying that people are never at fault for their obesity. I'm simply saying there are a lot of factors that come into play and it's rather ignorant to assume that every overweight person is the way they are because they're lazy and don't care. Also, many of these studies are done under controlled conditions with laboratory animals so participator bias doesn't come into play. If someone eats well and exercises regularly but still has trouble losing weight and keeping it off, there has to be more coming into play than simply "he/she is lazy." There's not one set answer for every overweight person's situation.
    I'm not saying that i think everyone who is overweight is lazy and doesn't care. I know plenty of people who try to lose and just can't do it. I also know that a lot of them do care but are too lazy to try or see it as pointless and have no hope. I am saying tho that i believe for most of these people it is. And yes, i agree that its more than just the laziness part but im sayin that i think it does infact play the most great role for those without legitimate medical issues.
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    I blame the parents, who let their children eat whatever the hell they want.

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    In Sweden, it's not a problem. That's based on observations made by me during the ~17 years I've lived here.
    I visited USA recently and I didn't seem like a problem there either. I didn't see a single obese person during the 3(?) days I spent walking in New York city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandi. View Post
    I blame the parents, who let their children eat whatever the hell they want.
    You should read the rest of the thread, unless you mean that it's the parents fault for not doing a genetic test to calculate the probability of their child getting obese or doing so but not minding the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    In Sweden, it's not a problem. That's based on observations made by me during the ~17 years I've lived here.
    I visited USA recently and I didn't seem like a problem there either. I didn't see a single obese person during the 3(?) days I spent walking in New York city.
    That's because you were in the wrong state. (seeing that NY is the state where everyone walks) Come to the southern states or even the far north and you'll see alot of obese people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    That's because you were in the wrong state. (seeing that NY is the state where everyone walks) Come to the southern states or even the far north and you'll see alot of obese people.
    I also spent a few days in Floria. I saw a lot less people there, which is why I didn't mention it. I don't recall seeing anyone obese there either, but it's likely that a lot of the people I saw were tourists. The only places worth mentioning where there were other people are Universal Studios theme park and Kennedy Space center.

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    Obesity is a symptom, not the problem. I know people that by all rights should be enormous, but are skinny as a rail. They eat terribly, and they will suffer the same diseases as those that show the results of their diet. American diet is piss poor, in part because crap is cheaper than good food. There is literally no reason to drink soda, or eat junk food if you're aware of what that stuff does to your body over time. The major food companies are going to fight tooth and nail against this, but major changes have to be made. It should be considered child abuse to feed soda to children. Flat out. You see mothers putting Coca Cola in baby bottles, and it's the sickest thing. They're dooming them from the beginning. Soda should not be sold in any schools. Chips and cookies and candy should not be in the schools either. It might be restricting their freedom a little, but if their parents are too ignorant or unwilling to protect their children from this stuff, the school has to pick up the slack. Put milk machines in, teach children the wonders of mini-carrots and nuts and raisins, ease up on the grease in the cafeteria food. We start from when they're young, we might be able to nip this epidemic in the bud. It would, however, take some draconian measures that will certainly not be popular with people.

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    So you have beauty and health companies who swear they'll help eliminate that fat, because to them, fat =/= beautiful
    .... to be extremely honest, it isn't beautiful. I don't see many overweight people being called beautiful or pretty these days unless they have this great personality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    .... to be extremely honest, it isn't beautiful. I don't see many overweight people being called beautiful or pretty these days unless they have this great personality.
    Beauty is a matter of opinion and you cannot speak for all people. Just because something isn't considered conventionally beautiful doesn't mean someone can't find it attractive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    Beauty is a matter of opinion and you cannot speak for all people. Just because something isn't considered conventionally beautiful doesn't mean someone can't find it attractive.
    In which in modern day, alot of people share the same opinion on beauty. Especially the media.

    I'm not saying that no one else can find it attractive, I'm saying that not alot of people that I know of would because then the media shows pictures of thin people, then people are going to think that it's beautiful.
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    One thing that gets under my skin about this is:
    There is a thing as too thin also.
    People take it to extremes to be thin but they have just as many health risks as those who are overweight.
    Technically I am WAY underweight, and it can lead to problems, you cant always say “this is better”
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoarang97 View Post
    I think it's sad, but understandable. As soon as the west world gets too fat to do anything China will take over and become the worlds centre. If kids were just taught how important it is to exercise and that you force them to do some exercise every week, and also stop using cars all the time (walk or ride a bike instead, how hard could it be?)
    I live in a small country town. When I was in middle and high school I had to ride the bus to school because for me to walk or ride a bike as you say would've required me to start at least 3 hours before I had to be at school. The same is also true of work when I did work. Driving in some places is a necessity not a luxury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    In which in modern day, alot of people share the same opinion on beauty. Especially the media.

    I'm not saying that no one else can find it attractive, I'm saying that not alot of people that I know of would because then the media shows pictures of thin people, then people are going to think that it's beautiful.
    Except you didn't say any of that. You said "it's not beautiful." A lot of people you know sound like they're brainwashed by the media. If we're going to use anecdotal evidence, I know plenty of people who think overweight people can be beautiful. My best friend is chubby and she gets hit on by guys all the time.

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    This is starting to get off topic. If this continues, i'm getting this thread closed
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    There are other issues besides exercise and diet that rarely get brought up in debates like these.

    We live in a culture that associates food with love. If grandma bakes a batch of chocolate chip cookies and you turn it down in the act of trying to stay healthy, you look like you're rejecting the time, effort, and love that went into making them, and you're practically insulting her gift to you by insinuating it's not healthy for you. Same thing goes if you turn down a slice of wedding cake, or the cupcakes a coworker brought in one day, or you sit out of having ice cream with a bunch of friends. Turn these things down in the name of dieting and exercise, and you'll look like the bad guy.

    The hardest thing about a diet? It's not self commitment. It's everyone else around you. It's the people that are having big burgers and steaks while you're trying to cope with a not-so-fulfilling salad. If you're by yourself, you can make your own habits much more easily than if you're trying to fight with those around you. You'll also have plenty of people who will say you don't have a problem, or you're not as fat as you think you are.

    This article is actually extremely good at pointing some of these things about (the last one is kind of a joke)
    http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-8-pe...o-lose-weight/

    I'm sure we all know somebody who matches at least a few of those numbers. My own mother, for instance, is a definite #6 and #4, and she often makes desserts for no reason or no special occasion whatsoever. And just yesterday, my family went out to eat for breakfast, lunch, AND dinner just so my dad could get free meals for Veteran's Day from all three places. I highly doubt that did my weight any favors.

    It's these kinds of things that nail us when we're trying to diet. Family, friends, and the perception of food, dieting, and exercise. It's not because we're lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    In which in modern day, alot of people share the same opinion on beauty. Especially the media.

    I'm not saying that no one else can find it attractive, I'm saying that not alot of people that I know of would because then the media shows pictures of thin people, then people are going to think that it's beautiful.
    Which is frankly a gigantic problem in and of itself, that the media portrays an impossibly idealistic standard for people to adhere to -- women in particular, since the message often seems to be that if a woman doesn't have her looks, she's worthless and undesirable... but I digress.

    True, chubby chasers exist, but society encourages people to both be thin and to pursue thin people as partners, as it stands. Morbid obesity is an issue, but so is fat phobia and being deemed unacceptable if you are a certain level of overweight, regardless of gender. It's a personal problem, a societal problem, a nutritional problem, a lifestyle problem, and a self-esteem problem all in one. People tend not to consider larger people beautiful or attractive both because they are encouraged not to, and because... well, I've found the dissatisfaction of a lot of people who feel they have weight issues reflects on them and locks them into a cycle of depression and obsession over their weight and appearance, but I can't speak for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by ansem the wise View Post
    One thing that gets under my skin about this is:
    There is a thing as too thin also.
    People take it to extremes to be thin but they have just as many health risks as those who are overweight.
    Technically I am WAY underweight, and it can lead to problems, you cant always say “this is better”
    Metabolism and the functions of your body are a part of it, but you know where a lot of underweightness comes from when not related to chemical processes? Eating disorders. Which are not helped by the "perfect," unattainable media ideal I mentioned above. I've found in my personal experience that unrealistic expectations like those cause susceptible individuals to veer way towards one end of the scale or the other; it just usually happens to be the overweight end, because for many, it's easier to gain than to lose when you get depressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avenger Angel View Post
    We live in a culture that associates food with love. If grandma bakes a batch of chocolate chip cookies and you turn it down in the act of trying to stay healthy, you look like you're rejecting the time, effort, and love that went into making them, and you're practically insulting her gift to you by insinuating it's not healthy for you. Same thing goes if you turn down a slice of wedding cake, or the cupcakes a coworker brought in one day, or you sit out of having ice cream with a bunch of friends. Turn these things down in the name of dieting and exercise, and you'll look like the bad guy.
    It's funny you should mention this, because if you look back at, say, Renaissance paintings or works of art from a few centuries ago, you'll see a lot of very chubby women depicted in them -- because that was what was considered attractive at the time, as it turns out! Plump meant she was well fed, well taken care of, and probably had a lot of money and other material assets to bring to any marriages. It's interesting what changes in a couple hundred years, huh?

    I learned in class not too long ago about a study done in Fiji, which is a culture that still values roundness and weight in both men and women to this day. American television was introduced to Fiji in the 1990s, and... well, see for yourself what happened.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserin View Post
    Which is frankly a gigantic problem in and of itself, that the media portrays an impossibly idealistic standard for people to adhere to -- women in particular, since the message often seems to be that if a woman doesn't have her looks, she's worthless and undesirable... but I digress.

    True, chubby chasers exist, but society encourages people to both be thin and to pursue thin people as partners, as it stands. Morbid obesity is an issue, but so is fat phobia and being deemed unacceptable if you are a certain level of overweight, regardless of gender. It's a personal problem, a societal problem, a nutritional problem, a lifestyle problem, and a self-esteem problem all in one. People tend not to consider larger people beautiful or attractive both because they are encouraged not to, and because... well, I've found the dissatisfaction of a lot of people who feel they have weight issues reflects on them and locks them into a cycle of depression and obsession over their weight and appearance, but I can't speak for everyone.



    Metabolism and the functions of your body are a part of it, but you know where a lot of underweightness comes from when not related to chemical processes? Eating disorders. Which are not helped by the "perfect," unattainable media ideal I mentioned above. I've found in my personal experience that unrealistic expectations like those cause susceptible individuals to veer way towards one end of the scale or the other; it just usually happens to be the overweight end, because for many, it's easier to gain than to lose when you get depressed.



    It's funny you should mention this, because if you look back at, say, Renaissance paintings or works of art from a few centuries ago, you'll see a lot of very chubby women depicted in them -- because that was what was considered attractive at the time, as it turns out! Plump meant she was well fed, well taken care of, and probably had a lot of money and other material assets to bring to any marriages. It's interesting what changes in a couple hundred years, huh?

    I learned in class not too long ago about a study done in Fiji, which is a culture that still values roundness and weight in both men and women to this day. American television was introduced to Fiji in the 1990s, and... well, see for yourself what happened.
    True but it gets annoying that they portray “thin is better”…no both ends are bad, its just easier to get over and more desireable to be under.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ansem the wise View Post
    True but it gets annoying that they portray “thin is better”…no both ends are bad, its just easier to get over and more desireable to be under.
    Socially desirable, maybe, but being underweight can do some pretty severe things to your health just the same as being overweight can, only in different ways. (Plus, it's even less attractive when clothes come off and your ribcage is showing, or you're sagging and fatigued all the time because your body isn't getting enough energy... stuff like that.)

    It's just unreasonable to ask people (girls, mainly) to be that thin, especially when 1) it's pretty bad for you, and 2) most of the women in media that look like this are either photoshopped or have some kind of illusion working to make them look much more skinny and flawless than they actually are. Girdles, makeup, whatever.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoarang97 View Post
    I think it's sad, but understandable. As soon as the west world gets too fat to do anything China will take over and become the worlds centre. If kids were just taught how important it is to exercise and that you force them to do some exercise every week, and also stop using cars all the time (walk or ride a bike instead, how hard could it be?)
    Try walking 3 miles to school everyday at 7 in the morning, or try riding a bike through some of the worst traffic you'll ever see in your life, and then tell me how reasonable that sounds.
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    [QUOTE=Psychic;15313408]
    muscles weighs more than fat,
    Urban myth.

    Lastly, this is just an observation, but has anyone noticed the make-you-fat-make-you-lose-fat culture? Food corporations want as much of their products consumed as possible. They spend ridiculous amounts of money to convince people to eat. But those people live within a culture that shames fat. So you have beauty and health companies who swear they'll help eliminate that fat, because to them, far =/= beautiful. It's much more profitable for such companies to make you feel awful about yourself so you'll buy their products, and who is it easy to make feel awful about themselves? Fat people.
    Yeah it's all the companies fault. I mean god forbid you consume something in moderation.

    As for being in a culture that shames fat, are we really? Walk out your front door and see all the fatties you see. Obesity should not normalised.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pesky Persian View Post
    I'm certainly not saying that people are never at fault for their obesity. I'm simply saying there are a lot of factors that come into play and it's rather ignorant to assume that every overweight person is the way they are because they're lazy and don't care. Also, many of these studies are done under controlled conditions with laboratory animals so participator bias doesn't come into play. If someone eats well and exercises regularly but still has trouble losing weight and keeping it off, there has to be more coming into play than simply "he/she is lazy." There's not one set answer for every overweight person's situation.
    The vast majority (of adults) are though. It really is pretty simple. If you are obese you are most likely at fault, unless you're a child, in which case your parents should be stripped of the right to take care of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    .... to be extremely honest, it isn't beautiful. I don't see many overweight people being called beautiful or pretty these days unless they have this great personality.
    I disagree. I really worry that we're almost approaching the stage whereby we're normalising being fat, and it's very worrying. In the past three days alone I've read or seen several articles on how women are embracing "plus-sized" (whatever that means) role-models and seeing it as perfectly ok to be overweight (or "curvy" as it seems to be these days). Fat is not and never will be beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manafi's Dream View Post
    Try walking 3 miles to school everyday at 7 in the morning, or try riding a bike through some of the worst traffic you'll ever see in your life, and then tell me how reasonable that sounds.
    3 miles isn't very far, or if that doesn't appeal, what's wrong with walking part of the way there or back? Or walking/exercising of your own accord.

    In short, obesity is a problem, but I don't think it's going to get much better because there are simply put, too many fat apologists.

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    Muscle doesn't technically "weigh more" (a pound is a pound, after all) but it is more dense. If you have two samples of the same volume, one muscle and one fat, the muscle is going to have greater weight because it takes more of it to take up the same amount of space compared to fat. So while you're correct that it doesn't weigh more, the overall concept of the statement remains: if you have two people with the same body size (same volume), the one with more muscle will weigh more. But I will agree that saying one weighs more than the other perpetuates a lot of false ideas and should be done away with.

    As for it being adults' faults, I think it's true for some but not all. That's why I think lots of different factors should be evaluated before giving the default "just exercise more, fatty" treatment plan. Everyone, no matter the body size, can benefit from exercise. I also think a distinction should be made- where is the line between "overweight" and "obese" and how should it be determined?

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    Some adults definitely do have some other health issues that are playing a role adding to their obesity. A lot of people work, diet, do everything to lose weight, and they cannot lose a pound, they actually gain more. So I wouldn't say it is everyone's fault.

    The people who do nothing to stay healthy or live their life going to fast food restaurants every single day, and sit on their ass though, really need to, put it simply, get off their ass. I'm sure weighing that much is quite a disappointment to them and they really don't think they can do it, but some of the stories I hear of people losing weight are very encouraging. I would definitely recommend these people watching other people go through the same issue as them and staying strong and doing everything they can.. because it does work, and they can lose the weight if they're really serious about it.

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    I'll give you the first point, and Pesky Persian covered what needed to be said there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Yeah it's all the companies fault. I mean god forbid you consume something in moderation.
    Please point out where I said that this was the only factor that contributes to the obesity problem, despite the fact that it comes after a paragraph where I gave a decent list of of other contributing factors.

    My point still stands that food companies make a profit off of selling you food and beauty/health companies make a profit off of promising to make you beautiful after eating all that food.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    As for being in a culture that shames fat, are we really? Walk out your front door and see all the fatties you see. Obesity should not normalised.
    I don't think you understand the difference between something being common VS something being accepted (and thus not shamed). Just because there are a lot of overweight people doesn't somehow prove that those people aren't shamed over their weight. I would suggest actually learning what fat shaming is, because while you claim it's not that common, it's happened in this very thread.

    I don't think anybody here is talking about normalizing obesity per say. Saying that it's possible to be healthy without being a stick is important to keep in mind. but fat shaming in itself is counterproductive because it makes the victim feel awful without actually contributing to improving their health.

    Also I lived in Canada and currently live in Israel, and a much smaller percentage of people are overweight in both places compared to the US.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    Fat is not and never will be beautiful.
    Correction: fat used to be quite beautiful. There's a reason that older paintings of beautiful women didn't feature skinny models. Beauty is completely dependent on the ideals of a particular society, which change over time and differ between cultures. Women in some countries are obsessed with tanning and women in other countries walk around with umbrellas on sunny days and so on. We just happen to value being skinny right now, because in this day and age people have a harder time being slim (in a healthy way) because of our access to food.

    That is not some excuse for obesity, only a fact. That said, being obese and being a little overweight aren't the same thing and shouldn't be treated as such.


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    Last edited by Psychic; 27th November 2012 at 7:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    Please point out where I said that this was the only factor that contributes to the obesity problem, despite the fact that it comes after a paragraph where I gave a decent list of of other contributing factors.
    Your fat-sympathising tone was the giveaway. Any "corpurashunnz!!!" gets me worried because it's bound to be inherently biased.

    My point still stands that food companies make a profit off of selling you food and beauty/health companies make a profit off of promising to make you beautiful after eating all that food.
    Yes, that is the free market and capitalism for you. Again though, a bit of common sense and moderation go a long way.

    I don't think you understand the difference between something being common VS something being accepted (and thus not shamed). Just because there are a lot of overweight people doesn't somehow prove that those people aren't shamed over their weight. I would suggest actually learning what fat shaming is, because while you claim it's not that common, it's happened in this very thread.
    Well good. It's nowhere near common enough. Excuse the pun, but we should not be suger-coating these people's indulgences. As I say, I'm seeing a worrying number of articles which are starting to talk about "real women" and "curves" and normalising their excessive weight.

    Also I lived in Canada and currently live in Israel, and a much smaller percentage of people are overweight in both places compared to the US.
    Two of the greatest nations on earth, that's no surprise. Colour me envious.

    Correction: fat used to be quite beautiful.
    "Is and never will be". I'll grant you though that I may be wrong, we may once again learn to embrace poor health.

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