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Thread: Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

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    Default Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

    I swear, every time I see a POTW, all I basically ever see on all these powerfull Pokemon is stuff like "Since it's slow, it automatically sucks." All speed does is decide who attacks first. It doesn't decide how hard a Pokemon hits or how well it can take hits, or how well it can avoid or throw hits, all it does is allow a Pokemon to attack first, and I don't see how that should take a first place to beating the living crap out of Pokemon.


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    Speed is important because it's the only stat that, when calculated into the game, is completely black and white (pun intended). Either you attack first or you don't. Other stats are different since they affect damage on a percentage basis, and while one speed point can be the difference between life and death, one point in one of the other stats probably will not. Having tons of power means next to nothing if your opponent hits and kills you first, which is why Rampardos is in NU right now; it hits hard, but it has neither the speed to beat many offensive threats or the bulk to take hits from the faster ones.

    Not to mention that the POTW doesn't make that much of a deal about speed. Many Pokemon function perfectly fine even without much speed at all, such as Ferrothorn and Reuniclus. While speed on a defensive Pokemon is nice at times, it's usually going to be a priority on offensive Pokemon. If an offensive Pokemon has plenty of bulk, then it can usually function properly even without speed because it doesn't mind taking a hit all that much. Conkeldurr is actually a great example of this. However, if that Pokemon is fairly frail, then it needs to have a high speed stat to make sure it can kill off the opposition before they kill it. This is why Pokemon like Darmanitan are in lower tiers; their speed stats are just low enough to lose to a vast number of offensive Pokemon in the upper tiers, and they don't have great bulk to compensate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Speed is important because it's the only stat that, when calculated into the game, is completely black and white (pun intended). Either you attack first or you don't. Other stats are different since they affect damage on a percentage basis, and while one speed point can be the difference between life and death, one point in one of the other stats probably will not. Having tons of power means next to nothing if your opponent hits and kills you first, which is why Rampardos is in NU right now; it hits hard, but it has neither the speed to beat many offensive threats or the bulk to take hits from the faster ones.

    Not to mention that the POTW doesn't make that much of a deal about speed. Many Pokemon function perfectly fine even without much speed at all, such as Ferrothorn and Reuniclus. While speed on a defensive Pokemon is nice at times, it's usually going to be a priority on offensive Pokemon. If an offensive Pokemon has plenty of bulk, then it can usually function properly even without speed because it doesn't mind taking a hit all that much. Conkeldurr is actually a great example of this. However, if that Pokemon is fairly frail, then it needs to have a high speed stat to make sure it can kill off the opposition before they kill it. This is why Pokemon like Darmanitan are in lower tiers; their speed stats are just low enough to lose to a vast number of offensive Pokemon in the upper tiers, and they don't have great bulk to compensate.
    ^ It is exactly as he said. But if you want like most people you could slower pok'emon like skarmory,jellicent,regice,tyranitar etc. Because even though they are slow they pack a big punch. Really I could probably rant about this all say but I won't. Speed is good but it's not everything,enough said.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonTrainerSilver View Post
    ^ It is exactly as he said. But if you want like most people you could slower pok'emon like skarmory,jellicent,regice,tyranitar etc. Because even though they are slow they pack a big punch. Really I could probably rant about this all say but I won't. Speed is good but it's not everything,enough said.
    Yeah skarm, jelly, and regice the offensive beasts. NO. Those things are OU because of their defenses not because they are bulky attackers. Slow offensive things would be conk, reuni, and stuff.

    Although speed is important, it is not everything. You need enough speed to outspeed the opponent but also have the stats to hit hard.
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    Because if you're not first you're last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airman View Post
    Because if you're not first you're last.
    Wow, that was deep...

    IMO, Speed is important, but not as important as PS. One skilled guy can win a Fast Offensive Team w/ a Stall Team. Of course, Speed matters A LOT in late game, but... Ferrothorn, Forrestres, Ammonguss, lots of bulk Pokémons are outta there, shining. So, Speed it's important, but is not all.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Airman View Post
    Because if you're not first you're last.
    Probably the most appropriate use of a Talladega Nights quote I have ever seen.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Speed is important because it's the only stat that, when calculated into the game, is completely black and white (pun intended). Either you attack first or you don't. Other stats are different since they affect damage on a percentage basis, and while one speed point can be the difference between life and death, one point in one of the other stats probably will not. Having tons of power means next to nothing if your opponent hits and kills you first, which is why Rampardos is in NU right now; it hits hard, but it has neither the speed to beat many offensive threats or the bulk to take hits from the faster ones.

    Not to mention that the POTW doesn't make that much of a deal about speed. Many Pokemon function perfectly fine even without much speed at all, such as Ferrothorn and Reuniclus. While speed on a defensive Pokemon is nice at times, it's usually going to be a priority on offensive Pokemon. If an offensive Pokemon has plenty of bulk, then it can usually function properly even without speed because it doesn't mind taking a hit all that much. Conkeldurr is actually a great example of this. However, if that Pokemon is fairly frail, then it needs to have a high speed stat to make sure it can kill off the opposition before they kill it. This is why Pokemon like Darmanitan are in lower tiers; their speed stats are just low enough to lose to a vast number of offensive Pokemon in the upper tiers, and they don't have great bulk to compensate.
    I am beginning to see the importance of speed tiers now. its a bit tricky since i'm used to thinking in terms of power and endurance but maybe now that is becoming a dated concept. Looking into speed maybe worth my while

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    Speed is a big factor it is the reason excadrill was banned to ubers or why garchomp is a great pokemon it is also the reason why SD gliscor sucks. speed isn't everything walls don't use speed except if they want to outspeed another wall (mosly jellicent so it can taunt others) but doing things first is very important so you can KO something before it KOes you..


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    Basically that. All it took was a little speed to throw Blaziken from UU all the way to Ubers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Basically that. All it took was a little speed to throw Blaziken from UU all the way to Ubers.

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    ok....


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    Jesusfreak has summed this up really well. Like he said, if you outspeed a Pokemon by even one point, you've got a major advantage over it, whereas if you've got a single point more of Special Attack, your advantage isn't that great. Outspeeding a Pokemon often allows you to dictate the play, since, most notably, you can severly damage or KO that Pokemon or other cases, perhaps getting an extra layer of spikes down. Of course, there are exceptions, but there always are.
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    Also another thing (partially from Dragonfree) is that the pokemon competitive game has extremely low "x"s when x is in xHKO. If pokemon had twenty times the HP they currently do, speed would matter next to nothing. Getting that first hit in can be a lot if you only have a 2 or 3HKO.

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    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.
    That is not true.
    Defensive pokes values great typing and reliable recovery above anything else. For them Speed is just the icing on the cake (Ex: Skarmory > Bastiodon)

    For Offensive pokes, being able to hit before it gets killed by other offensive pokemon is always a benefit. Especially when supported by great offensive stats & movepools. Conkeldurr is one of the "slow" bulky offense pokemon that is decent enough to stand strong in OU metagame, thanks to its sheer power and good 105 base HP (and mach punch)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.
    Okay, give me a couple of examples of Pokemon that are competitively viable because of high speed stats alone regardless of a lack of other good assets, and I'll match each with two examples of Pokemon that could care less about speed and are still great threats in a given metagame.

    My guess is that you will find none. Speed has never been the only factor that makes any one Pokemon viable. Accelgor and Electrode are very, very fast, outpacing even many Choice Scarf users, but they are not used in OU for the very fact that they have few other assets (including stats) that give them a niche. Even Ninjask is only used because of its ability to Baton Pass Speed Boosts. If it didn't have that to its name, no one would ever use it except for extreme gimmicks, regardless of how stupidly fast it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I'll match each with two examples of Pokemon that could care less about speed and are still great threats in a given metagame.
    Could you do it anyway?

    I guess not all fast Pokemon are OU. Persain, Purugly, and Liepard would be OU if this were true. (I'll never understand why Purugly is as fast as it is.) Also, for Trick Room, I hear it's only useful in doubles battles, which I hear that very few play. Why is this?


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Could you do it anyway?
    Absolutely. In fact, I can kick it off with a couple of simple OU examples. Ferrothorn and Forretress are two Pokemon in particular that rely on their good defenses, typing, and supporting movepool to maintain viability. They even run absolute minimum speed at times to boost Gyro Ball. Reuniclus and Conkeldurr are two offensive Pokemon that use good bulk, boosting moves that boost offense and defense, and high offensive stats to break through teams. Each of these is apt to run minimum speed as well, namely for Reuniclus wishing to abuse Trick Room and Conkeldurr wanting to make sure it attacks last for Payback.

    Other OU Pokemon like Chansey, Blissey, Gastrodon, and even more offensive Pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, and Landorus-T have common sets that run little or no speed.

    I guess not all fast Pokemon are OU. Persain, Purugly, and Liepard would be OU if this were true. (I'll never understand why Purugly is as fast as it is.) Also, for Trick Room, I hear it's only useful in doubles battles, which I hear that very few play. Why is this?
    Trick Room can be used in singles, but because it does not last very long, it is usually better taken advantage of by the very Pokemon that activate it (i.e. TR Reuniclus). Usually you use up two turns just setting it up and switching to an alternate abuser. In doubles, however, it is much easier to abuse when you don't have to switch to your main Trick Room abuser and thus waste a turn. You can set up Trick Room with, say, Cresselia while having a slow and powerful Pokemon like Metagross out at the same time and start abusing Trick Room right then and there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Absolutely. In fact, I can kick it off with a couple of simple OU examples. Ferrothorn and Forretress are two Pokemon in particular that rely on their good defenses, typing, and supporting movepool to maintain viability. They even run absolute minimum speed at times to boost Gyro Ball. Reuniclus and Conkeldurr are two offensive Pokemon that use good bulk, boosting moves that boost offense and defense, and high offensive stats to break through teams. Each of these is apt to run minimum speed as well, namely for Reuniclus wishing to abuse Trick Room and Conkeldurr wanting to make sure it attacks last for Payback.

    Other OU Pokemon like Chansey, Blissey, Gastrodon, and even more offensive Pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, and Landorus-T have common sets that run little or no speed.
    So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.

    ...I know it's no one's fault but Nintendo's, and it's only an opinion on what Pokemon are cool or not, but I can never get over how so many of my favorite Pokemon are low tiered, with so many of my least-favorite Pokemon are high tiered.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Also, for Trick Room, I hear it's only useful in doubles battles, which I hear that very few play. Why is this?
    VGC uses doubles as its standard format, and it's getting more and more popular. As for why TR is more useful in doubles, well, jesusfreak explained it already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agonist View Post
    VGC uses doubles as its standard format, and it's getting more and more popular. As for why TR is more useful in doubles, well, jesusfreak explained it already.
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    Let's get the point in pokemon people love to just hit harder and faster because of this some pokemon get over looked . As for trick room great move just some people try over do their team with the move and places pokemon that are slow but can't take a hit . Take point the champion Ray had trick room user on his team and didn't see anybody else . To me it seems like on wifi people are using weather teams for the speed and for the easy ok
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.
    By that logic, Magikarp should be pretty good, considering it outspeeds a fair number of Pokémon.

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    Like the others said, speed can be very important on offensive and defensive Pokemon alike. Offensive Pokemon usually want as much speed as possible so they can outpaced as much as possible. Defensive Pokemon may also invest a bit in speed so they can outpace other walls to Taunt them before they get taunted.

    Speed isn't everything though. The uber tier particularly infested with base 90s, some of which invest fully in HP or another offensive stat just for this reason, such as Dialga and Groudon.
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    just use Trick Room :]

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