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Thread: Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

  1. #1
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    Default Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

    I swear, every time I see a POTW, all I basically ever see on all these powerfull Pokemon is stuff like "Since it's slow, it automatically sucks." All speed does is decide who attacks first. It doesn't decide how hard a Pokemon hits or how well it can take hits, or how well it can avoid or throw hits, all it does is allow a Pokemon to attack first, and I don't see how that should take a first place to beating the living crap out of Pokemon.


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    Speed is important because it's the only stat that, when calculated into the game, is completely black and white (pun intended). Either you attack first or you don't. Other stats are different since they affect damage on a percentage basis, and while one speed point can be the difference between life and death, one point in one of the other stats probably will not. Having tons of power means next to nothing if your opponent hits and kills you first, which is why Rampardos is in NU right now; it hits hard, but it has neither the speed to beat many offensive threats or the bulk to take hits from the faster ones.

    Not to mention that the POTW doesn't make that much of a deal about speed. Many Pokemon function perfectly fine even without much speed at all, such as Ferrothorn and Reuniclus. While speed on a defensive Pokemon is nice at times, it's usually going to be a priority on offensive Pokemon. If an offensive Pokemon has plenty of bulk, then it can usually function properly even without speed because it doesn't mind taking a hit all that much. Conkeldurr is actually a great example of this. However, if that Pokemon is fairly frail, then it needs to have a high speed stat to make sure it can kill off the opposition before they kill it. This is why Pokemon like Darmanitan are in lower tiers; their speed stats are just low enough to lose to a vast number of offensive Pokemon in the upper tiers, and they don't have great bulk to compensate.

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    Speed is a big factor it is the reason excadrill was banned to ubers or why garchomp is a great pokemon it is also the reason why SD gliscor sucks. speed isn't everything walls don't use speed except if they want to outspeed another wall (mosly jellicent so it can taunt others) but doing things first is very important so you can KO something before it KOes you..


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    Basically that. All it took was a little speed to throw Blaziken from UU all the way to Ubers.

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    Jesusfreak has summed this up really well. Like he said, if you outspeed a Pokemon by even one point, you've got a major advantage over it, whereas if you've got a single point more of Special Attack, your advantage isn't that great. Outspeeding a Pokemon often allows you to dictate the play, since, most notably, you can severly damage or KO that Pokemon or other cases, perhaps getting an extra layer of spikes down. Of course, there are exceptions, but there always are.
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    Also another thing (partially from Dragonfree) is that the pokemon competitive game has extremely low "x"s when x is in xHKO. If pokemon had twenty times the HP they currently do, speed would matter next to nothing. Getting that first hit in can be a lot if you only have a 2 or 3HKO.

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    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.
    That is not true.
    Defensive pokes values great typing and reliable recovery above anything else. For them Speed is just the icing on the cake (Ex: Skarmory > Bastiodon)

    For Offensive pokes, being able to hit before it gets killed by other offensive pokemon is always a benefit. Especially when supported by great offensive stats & movepools. Conkeldurr is one of the "slow" bulky offense pokemon that is decent enough to stand strong in OU metagame, thanks to its sheer power and good 105 base HP (and mach punch)



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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.
    Okay, give me a couple of examples of Pokemon that are competitively viable because of high speed stats alone regardless of a lack of other good assets, and I'll match each with two examples of Pokemon that could care less about speed and are still great threats in a given metagame.

    My guess is that you will find none. Speed has never been the only factor that makes any one Pokemon viable. Accelgor and Electrode are very, very fast, outpacing even many Choice Scarf users, but they are not used in OU for the very fact that they have few other assets (including stats) that give them a niche. Even Ninjask is only used because of its ability to Baton Pass Speed Boosts. If it didn't have that to its name, no one would ever use it except for extreme gimmicks, regardless of how stupidly fast it is.

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    Like the others said, speed can be very important on offensive and defensive Pokemon alike. Offensive Pokemon usually want as much speed as possible so they can outpaced as much as possible. Defensive Pokemon may also invest a bit in speed so they can outpace other walls to Taunt them before they get taunted.

    Speed isn't everything though. The uber tier particularly infested with base 90s, some of which invest fully in HP or another offensive stat just for this reason, such as Dialga and Groudon.
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    just use Trick Room :]

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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    But it's stupid how so many monsters are useless just because they're slow, instead of because they cannot take a hit or dish it out. It's like, no one cares how super powerful it is or how super defensive it is. As long as it attacks first, it can have awful stats.
    By that logic, Magikarp should be pretty good, considering it outspeeds a fair number of Pokémon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I'll match each with two examples of Pokemon that could care less about speed and are still great threats in a given metagame.
    Could you do it anyway?

    I guess not all fast Pokemon are OU. Persain, Purugly, and Liepard would be OU if this were true. (I'll never understand why Purugly is as fast as it is.) Also, for Trick Room, I hear it's only useful in doubles battles, which I hear that very few play. Why is this?


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Could you do it anyway?
    Absolutely. In fact, I can kick it off with a couple of simple OU examples. Ferrothorn and Forretress are two Pokemon in particular that rely on their good defenses, typing, and supporting movepool to maintain viability. They even run absolute minimum speed at times to boost Gyro Ball. Reuniclus and Conkeldurr are two offensive Pokemon that use good bulk, boosting moves that boost offense and defense, and high offensive stats to break through teams. Each of these is apt to run minimum speed as well, namely for Reuniclus wishing to abuse Trick Room and Conkeldurr wanting to make sure it attacks last for Payback.

    Other OU Pokemon like Chansey, Blissey, Gastrodon, and even more offensive Pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, and Landorus-T have common sets that run little or no speed.

    I guess not all fast Pokemon are OU. Persain, Purugly, and Liepard would be OU if this were true. (I'll never understand why Purugly is as fast as it is.) Also, for Trick Room, I hear it's only useful in doubles battles, which I hear that very few play. Why is this?
    Trick Room can be used in singles, but because it does not last very long, it is usually better taken advantage of by the very Pokemon that activate it (i.e. TR Reuniclus). Usually you use up two turns just setting it up and switching to an alternate abuser. In doubles, however, it is much easier to abuse when you don't have to switch to your main Trick Room abuser and thus waste a turn. You can set up Trick Room with, say, Cresselia while having a slow and powerful Pokemon like Metagross out at the same time and start abusing Trick Room right then and there.

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    Don't worry, Urth. I'm a wait and hit hard kind of guy too. That aside, the mods pretty much nailed it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Also, for Trick Room, I hear it's only useful in doubles battles, which I hear that very few play. Why is this?
    VGC uses doubles as its standard format, and it's getting more and more popular. As for why TR is more useful in doubles, well, jesusfreak explained it already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agonist View Post
    VGC uses doubles as its standard format, and it's getting more and more popular. As for why TR is more useful in doubles, well, jesusfreak explained it already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Absolutely. In fact, I can kick it off with a couple of simple OU examples. Ferrothorn and Forretress are two Pokemon in particular that rely on their good defenses, typing, and supporting movepool to maintain viability. They even run absolute minimum speed at times to boost Gyro Ball. Reuniclus and Conkeldurr are two offensive Pokemon that use good bulk, boosting moves that boost offense and defense, and high offensive stats to break through teams. Each of these is apt to run minimum speed as well, namely for Reuniclus wishing to abuse Trick Room and Conkeldurr wanting to make sure it attacks last for Payback.

    Other OU Pokemon like Chansey, Blissey, Gastrodon, and even more offensive Pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, and Landorus-T have common sets that run little or no speed.
    So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.

    ...I know it's no one's fault but Nintendo's, and it's only an opinion on what Pokemon are cool or not, but I can never get over how so many of my favorite Pokemon are low tiered, with so many of my least-favorite Pokemon are high tiered.


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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.

    ...I know it's no one's fault but Nintendo's, and it's only an opinion on what Pokemon are cool or not, but I can never get over how so many of my favorite Pokemon are low tiered, with so many of my least-favorite Pokemon are high tiered.
    Unfortunately, pokemon design is nothing more than a sprite attached to set of stats, and if that set of stats isn't good, then that pokemon will be nothing more than a sandbag for you team. That's just the way it is.

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    simply put, speed is a matter of life and death. its kill or be killed. if something threatening outspeeds you, you will die unless you switch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.
    There are a couple of problems that I see with this. For one thing, how a Pokemon looks or whether or not it was "designed to look defensive" is completely subjective. I personally think all of those Pokemon I mentioned look cool except maybe Gastrodon, and Reuniclus and Conkeldurr don't exactly look "defensive" to me.

    Second of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "rot" in the lower tiers. Pokemon in the lower tiers aren't rotting, their standing out. Let's take Hitmonlee in RU, for example. It makes a great offensive Fighting type in its respective tier, but it receives strict competition from Fighting types like Mienshao in UU and Terrakion in OU. If it weren't for lower tiers, it would receive little or no use at all. There's really nothing wrong with being in a lower tier. Being a lower tier Pokemon literally just means that you aren't used as much in the upper tiers, and it also means that you can be used in more tiers. If anything, it's a good thing, unless you choose to be offended by the term "Under/Rarely/Never Used".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    1. So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.

    ...I3. know it's no one's fault but Nintendo's, and it's only an opinion on what Pokemon are cool or not, 2. but I can never get over how so many of my favorite Pokemon are low tiered, with so many of my least-favorite Pokemon are high tiered.
    1. Where did you come up with that riduclous idea? Rampardos looks like it could tank a tank head on, yet dies if an absorb hits it.
    2. Just another "y doez charizard suk in uberz it looks so kewl and i pwned the elit 4 w/ it in firered" argument. I love maractus, but I understand why it sucks so badly in OU, even if chlorophyll is activated, but I don't complain.
    3. Did you just blame NINTENDO for putting your favorite pokemon in lower tiers? Considering your sentence composition, you end up putting the blame on Nintendo, even if you meant smogon. In that case, it's because they took a good long look at each pokemon, and compared them with every other competitively viable set (or at least I think they did). Their results determined what pokemon go in which tiers. Plus, just because a pokemon's in NU doesn't really mean anything anyway. Or you could just stop complaining about a fairly balanced ou (since the last time I checked anyways) and, I don't know, play NU and RU with your favorite pokes before you suddenly bash those tiers(which still offer the fun of OU and ubers with the added bonus of using your cool pokes)

    Sorry if this comes off extremely rude or insulting to you, but parts of your argument don't make any sense, and I really don't know a better way to say this. I'd love a less speed centered metagame, but that's one of the reason's its fun in the first place.
    Yep we should ban baton pass, and weather too. Oh and Trick Room, I'm tired of having to worry about Trick Room all the time. Just ban the move Trick Room, and prankster, it's broken. Ban all status moves on prankster users, they're too cheap. Oh and ban Probopass to it's so cheap. Just ban everything except Magikarp with splash.
    Well, actually Blaziken isn't really Uber because some people whined about how they were getting owned by it. I mean, it doesn't stand a chance in the Uber enviroment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irock245 View Post
    3. Did you just blame NINTENDO for putting your favorite pokemon in lower tiers? Considering your sentence composition, you end up putting the blame on Nintendo, even if you meant smogon. In that case, it's because they took a good long look at each pokemon, and compared them with every other competitively viable set (or at least I think they did). Their results determined what pokemon go in which tiers. Plus, just because a pokemon's in NU doesn't really mean anything anyway. Or you could just stop complaining about a fairly balanced ou (since the last time I checked anyways) and, I don't know, play NU and RU with your favorite pokes before you suddenly bash those tiers(which still offer the fun of OU and ubers with the added bonus of using your cool pokes)
    No, Smogon simply recorded how much the pokemon was used. Nintendo, or more specifically, Gamefreak are the ones that controlled each pokemon's stats, moves, typing, and abilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    No, Smogon simply recorded how much the pokemon was used. Nintendo, or more specifically, Gamefreak are the ones that controlled each pokemon's stats, moves, typing, and abilities.
    This.

    Well, it's hard NOT to complain when so many Pokemon you strongly dislike are OU or better, like Garchom, Scizor, Infernape, etc. with only two or three Pokemon you even remotely like in those tiers. (Let's assume we're not counting legendaries, which are usually OU or higher.) And then way too many of your favorite Pokemon are UU or lower. Yeah, of coarse it's going to sting. I mean, come on. Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Cloyster are just orbs wrapped in a shield. Blissey and Chansey are just ugly fat creatures with nothing going for them except that they're fat. Gastrodon... So basically the big, cool looking Swampert and the cute, happy Whiscash and other Water/Ground types are overshadowed by THAT ugly piece of ****? Conkeldurr and Reniculus are okay, but neither are all that interesting. OU-Higher has, like, four non-legendary Pokemon I like, and that's about it. The rest are Pokemon I strongly dislike, even hate, or just Pokemon I don't like. I'm not saying it should be different, I'm just saying it's really hard not to complain.

    Also, since it's not ALWAYS about speed, how come the past few PotW's have been about "Oh, it's slow! Therefore, it's useless!" Honestly, I will never believe speed is as important as it's made out to be. I'd rather be able to deal lots of damage and take lots of damage than attack first or run away from wild Pokemon.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Well, it's hard NOT to complain when so many Pokemon you strongly dislike are OU or better, like Garchom, Scizor, Infernape, etc. with only two or three Pokemon you even remotely like in those tiers. (Let's assume we're not counting legendaries, which are usually OU or higher.) And then way too many of your favorite Pokemon are UU or lower. Yeah, of coarse it's going to sting. I mean, come on. Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Cloyster are just orbs wrapped in a shield. Blissey and Chansey are just ugly fat creatures with nothing going for them except that they're fat. Gastrodon... So basically the big, cool looking Swampert and the cute, happy Whiscash and other Water/Ground types are overshadowed by THAT ugly piece of ****? Conkeldurr and Reniculus are okay, but neither are all that interesting. OU-Higher has, like, four non-legendary Pokemon I like, and that's about it. The rest are Pokemon I strongly dislike, even hate, or just Pokemon I don't like. I'm not saying it should be different, I'm just saying it's really hard not to complain.
    Actually, it's quite easy not to complain. Just count your blessings. Lower tier Pokemon have a huge advantage over higher tier ones: they can be used in more tiers. It doesn't automatically mean that they're bad, so there's no reason to get upset at a Pokemon being in a lower tier. If fact, there have been a couple of times where a Pokemon not being in a lower tier has come back to bite people. One great example is Metang, who was spammed in RU by a bunch of people as a joke and actually made the usage cut. However, this was at the same time that Zangoose and Cinccino gained their Dream World abilities and became top-tier threats in NU, as well as the same time that Braviary gained Roost and became even more dangerous with sets like the SubBulkUp set, which made people wish that Metang was still NU (which it did later drop back to). Although it's a fairly small niche, Metang is one of the few Pokemon in NU able to take hits from those guys pretty comfortably, a niche it lacks in RU. In this case, rising to RU was actually bad for Metang.

    Also, since it's not ALWAYS about speed, how come the past few PotW's have been about "Oh, it's slow! Therefore, it's useless!" Honestly, I will never believe speed is as important as it's made out to be. I'd rather be able to deal lots of damage and take lots of damage than attack first or run away from wild Pokemon.
    Which POTW's in particular? 99% of the time, speed is not the only issue that hurts a Pokemon's chances in a given tier. Speed isn't infinitely more important than bulk and power, but a Pokemon needs a good combination of those to be effective. For example, if you have a choice between a Pokemon with base 130 Atk and 100 Spe and a Pokemon with base 120 Atk and 110 Spe (neither with any other noticeable advantages), then you'll need to rationally decide whether or not the extra speed is worth the drop in power, and this is often heavily influenced by the metagame in question. For example, having a base 110 Spe stat in OU would let you beat Pokemon like Salamence, Volcarona, Jirachi, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Mienshao, Keldeo, Garchomp, and Landorus-I, while also speed tying with the Lati twins and Gengar. This is probably going to be more important than an extra 10 base points in power, since that speed can be the difference between kill or be killed when dealing with some of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in the metagame. Now, say you had a Pokemon with base 130 Atk and 50 Spe and another with base 120 Atk and 60 Spe. In this case, neither of the Pokemon are especially fast, so you'd probably be a bit more likely to choose the stronger Pokemon unless there's some bulky Pokemon you just really want to outspeed.

    Again, pretty much the only time that speed is of absolute importance is when you're dealing with an offensive Pokemon that can't afford to take many hits.

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