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Thread: Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

  1. #26
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    Wow, jesusfreak. I really admire your knowledge and your kindness.

    I will say that a lot of POTW I've seen have bashed Pokemon just for their speed.


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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    This.

    Well, it's hard NOT to complain when so many Pokemon you strongly dislike are OU or better, like Garchom, Scizor, Infernape, etc. with only two or three Pokemon you even remotely like in those tiers. (Let's assume we're not counting legendaries, which are usually OU or higher.) And then way too many of your favorite Pokemon are UU or lower. Yeah, of coarse it's going to sting. I mean, come on. Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Cloyster are just orbs wrapped in a shield. Blissey and Chansey are just ugly fat creatures with nothing going for them except that they're fat. Gastrodon... So basically the big, cool looking Swampert and the cute, happy Whiscash and other Water/Ground types are overshadowed by THAT ugly piece of ****? Conkeldurr and Reniculus are okay, but neither are all that interesting. OU-Higher has, like, four non-legendary Pokemon I like, and that's about it. The rest are Pokemon I strongly dislike, even hate, or just Pokemon I don't like. I'm not saying it should be different, I'm just saying it's really hard not to complain.

    Also, since it's not ALWAYS about speed, how come the past few PotW's have been about "Oh, it's slow! Therefore, it's useless!" Honestly, I will never believe speed is as important as it's made out to be. I'd rather be able to deal lots of damage and take lots of damage than attack first or run away from wild Pokemon.
    I wonder if you ever played wifi.. one game and you can already be convinced speed is important..


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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Wow, jesusfreak. I really admire your knowledge and your kindness.

    I will say that a lot of POTW I've seen have bashed Pokemon just for their speed.
    Yeah some of the posts on POTW aren't exactly the most accurate or reliable
    Yep we should ban baton pass, and weather too. Oh and Trick Room, I'm tired of having to worry about Trick Room all the time. Just ban the move Trick Room, and prankster, it's broken. Ban all status moves on prankster users, they're too cheap. Oh and ban Probopass to it's so cheap. Just ban everything except Magikarp with splash.
    Well, actually Blaziken isn't really Uber because some people whined about how they were getting owned by it. I mean, it doesn't stand a chance in the Uber enviroment.

  4. #29
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    Everyine pretty much nailed it, so not much to say. I made a trick room team to really let my guts ursaring shine, because I know he'd die in normal battles. You can still play with your favorites, just know that if you want to win, you have to do what's best to accomodate them is all.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by irock245 View Post
    Yeah some of the posts on POTW aren't exactly the most accurate or reliable
    Pfft, the ones I did were.

  6. #31
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    Mugo, I really advice you to just play some battles and get to know the competive area a little, because although a charizard can beat the elite four doesnt mean that he is a beast that can tear everyone apart. Charizard is quite easily beaten in competive play.. While shuckle sucks when in-game play. He rocks in competive play, its really a diffrent world.

    Judging by your comments and such, I think I can share an hand with you though.
    I dont think your an OU player who wants to use all Powerfull poks etc.. I think your more the NU/UU/RU player.
    In that section contains slightly less powerfull (Stat-wise) poks than OU and is more fun because of that and with many more reasons
    you'll find out. And pokemon like persian or the others you have mentioned work really well in NU/RU, so why not give it a go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Pfft, the ones I did were.
    And they were lovely :')


    Anyway Speed sometimes may not matter like the others said like Ditto, who you could just slap a Choice Scarf on it and nab there boosts to outspeed them like Volcarona (if HP Rock is there).

  8. #33
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    As a friend of mine (Who to my knowledge is much better at this then I will ever be) once said, battling is 30% strategy and 70% luck. There is no singular defined way on how you should play the game. Speed most certainly is a factor, there's no doubt about that, but due to the highly subjective nature of the system, it all comes down to luck. There is a feasible counter to mostly everything, no matter how many Choice Scarved men you throw at them.

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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azulart View Post
    Mugo, I really advice you to just play some battles and get to know the competive area a little, because although a charizard can beat the elite four doesnt mean that he is a beast that can tear everyone apart. Charizard is quite easily beaten in competive play.. While shuckle sucks when in-game play. He rocks in competive play, its really a diffrent world.

    Judging by your comments and such, I think I can share an hand with you though.
    I dont think your an OU player who wants to use all Powerfull poks etc.. I think your more the NU/UU/RU player.
    In that section contains slightly less powerfull (Stat-wise) poks than OU and is more fun because of that and with many more reasons
    you'll find out. And pokemon like persian or the others you have mentioned work really well in NU/RU, so why not give it a go.
    It's not really that I'm an UU/RU/NU player or anything like that, it's that so many Pokemon I like are in the lower tiers, and the majority of the Pokemon I DO like in the higher tiers are Ground type, which almost in itself is an OU type. (Gengar, and Venusaur are kind of the only non-ground/non-legendary Pokemon in OU that I like, with Hippowdon, Gliscor, Mamoswine, and Excadrill also being Pokemon I like.) I know jesusfreak said that the UU/RU/NU Pokemon are still strong, but it doesn't deny the fact that OU/Uber Pokemon are used more because they're stronger, and it still kind of bugs me.

    ...Anyone else notice the high amount of Ground Pokemon in OU?


    I must say, I am 110% against this action, I mean, quoting Wikipedia, '' A world of free knowledge will be lost ''. I say screw SOPA and PIPA, and all who agrees with me, sig this! We all detest the bill and will fight for the freedom of the Internet!

    This is Bidoof. Many people loathe it with their lives. If you are of the few people who love this little beaver, put this in your sig. Started by Warrior Scolipede

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    Wow, jesusfreak. I really admire your knowledge and your kindness.

    I will say that a lot of POTW I've seen have bashed Pokemon just for their speed.

    The reason they are bashed about their speed is that tons of pokes are very similar in movepools and in stats but speed sets them apart example

    Gengar and Mismagius very similar speed and sp attack (the only 2 stats those 2 utilize) but mismag is slower

    gengar and chandelure is also similar gengar has base 30 speed on chand while chand has much higher spa 15 but the speed makes gengar more reliable.

    Haxorus is slower than mence. The latter has the ability to boost its strength by attacking making it more reliable attacker and has higher speed
    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    It's not really that I'm an UU/RU/NU player or anything like that, it's that so many Pokemon I like are in the lower tiers, and the majority of the Pokemon I DO like in the higher tiers are Ground type, which almost in itself is an OU type. I know jesusfreak said that the UU/RU/NU Pokemon are still strong, but it doesn't deny the fact that OU/Uber Pokemon are used more because they're stronger, and it still kind of bugs me.

    ...Anyone else notice the high amount of Ground Pokemon in OU?
    UU/RU/NU pokes are strong aswell Zaptos is a powerhouse in UU and can do well in OU
    Another Example is Tornadus it was OU for the longest time

    There is only 8 ground types but with gliscor being so popular and hippo setting weather along with the 2 lando forms runnign around it does seem like alot


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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by theebay707 View Post
    just use Trick Room :]
    ROTFL. Anyways they all have legitimate points. Both those arguing for speeds importance and those arguing against it. But the real thing is that speed is rarely the entire reason why something isn't useable, but it is always the nail in the coffin for it. Here is an example, Torkoal.

    It can spin, lay down rocks, and has physical bulk to rival Rypherior. But its Special Defense sucks, its typing sucks, and the nail in the coffin is its base 20 speed.

    Speed lets you ignore problems like this. If Torkoal had a random base speed of 120 (It sounds like a locamotive right?) it wouldn't care about its terrible typing or low special defense. It would just swap in on a physical attack, shellsmash it up, and proceed to rain down all kinds of hell and damnation on it foes.

    But the fact is its not that fast. So it suffers from its drawbacks. That is why speed matters.

  12. #37
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    here's an example:
    deoxys-d(A) w/0 speed ev's vs. deoxys-d(B) w/4 speed ev's
    turn 1: Deoxys-d(B) used taunt
    Deoxys-d(A) just got laughed at because its too slow and can't do anything anymore
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  13. #38
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    When you're fast, you can do anything! from setting up hazards to inflict status-conditions. And gain possible OhKo's

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MugoUrth View Post
    It's not really that I'm an UU/RU/NU player or anything like that, it's that so many Pokemon I like are in the lower tiers, and the majority of the Pokemon I DO like in the higher tiers are Ground type, which almost in itself is an OU type. (Gengar, and Venusaur are kind of the only non-ground/non-legendary Pokemon in OU that I like, with Hippowdon, Gliscor, Mamoswine, and Excadrill also being Pokemon I like.) I know jesusfreak said that the UU/RU/NU Pokemon are still strong, but it doesn't deny the fact that OU/Uber Pokemon are used more because they're stronger, and it still kind of bugs me.

    ...Anyone else notice the high amount of Ground Pokemon in OU?
    In an environment where people play competitively (IE they play to win), that means they want to have a good solid strategy and then pick Pokemon and design sets that accomplish that strategy. If you build a team by picking favorites, then you'll have to either rely on luck and hope that favorite Pokemon does something useful, or shoehorn them into a role that is probably better filled by another Pokemon.

    That doesn't mean a competitive player doesn't like the Pokemon he or she uses. But it does mean that they should design teams based on what Pokemon can fulfill their goal of winning rather than battling with the cutest or coolest looking Pokemon or whatever.
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  15. #40
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    It's really not that hard, if you can hit first and hit hard you net in a ko before the opponent and are less likely to be out sped and koed as a result which is crucial for fast hard hitting pokemon like gengar and tornadous, which need to ko first or b koed.

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudnugget1 View Post
    As a friend of mine (Who to my knowledge is much better at this then I will ever be) once said, battling is 30% strategy and 70% luck. There is no singular defined way on how you should play the game. Speed most certainly is a factor, there's no doubt about that, but due to the highly subjective nature of the system, it all comes down to luck. There is a feasible counter to mostly everything, no matter how many Choice Scarved men you throw at them.
    More like 70% strategy and 30% luck.

    Yes, luck can easily turn the tide of the battle, but it's undeniable that the more skilled player will win significantly more battles. Though how much luck can change things depends on how skilled two users are to each other.
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  17. #42

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    The amount of luck involved in determining the outcome of a Pokémon battle is inversely proportional to the distance between the skill levels of the two trainers battling, and the amount by which the outcome of a Pokémon battle is determined by luck reaches 100% in a battle between two trainers of the exact same skill level.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokémon Trainer R View Post
    The amount of luck involved in determining the outcome of a Pokémon battle is inversely proportional to the distance between the skill levels of the two trainers battling, and the amount by which the outcome of a Pokémon battle is determined by luck reaches 100% in a battle between two trainers of the exact same skill level.
    Of course, 100% luck is completely theoretical, since someone could make a mistake in their thinking, make a silly move they usually wouldn't, and of course, there is no way to people will ever be on the exact same skill level to the exact extreme amount(besides Tate and Liza). Not to mention team matchups.

    Though this is still a valid point, as I said here;
    Though how much luck can change things depends on how skilled two users are to each other.
    But you still gave a better explanation, even if I felt the need to correct it a little.
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  19. #44

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    A person making a mistake in their thinking, a person making a silly move they normally wouldn't, and team matchups influencing the outcome of a battle are all examples of luck affecting the battle's outcome. My point was that if two people are of the exact same skill level, then the aforementioned factors, combined other forms of luck (such as predictions, critical hits, freezes, full paralysis, etc) are the only possible factors that could influence a battle's outcome, hence why battles become 100% luck-based at that point.

    Also, it is certainly possible for two people to be "on the exact same skill level to the exact extreme amount." Whether or not there's ever been two individuals in existence whose skill levels are exactly the same "to the exact extreme amount," however, is an entirely different question. But the non-existence of such individuals does not refute what I have said in my previous post anyway.

  20. #45

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    Pokemon Trainer R is just saying what a lot of people have been saying for a long time: Pokemon is a luck-based game for children.

    Not really sure what it has to do with the importance of speed, but hey, the point still stands.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    Of course, 100% luck is completely theoretical, since someone could make a mistake in their thinking, make a silly move they usually wouldn't, and of course, there is no way to people will ever be on the exact same skill level to the exact extreme amount(besides Tate and Liza). Not to mention team matchups.

    Though this is still a valid point, as I said here; But you still gave a better explanation, even if I felt the need to correct it a little.
    Obviously you never saw Thedarklord and I battle (before we both left the meta/I rejoined), whoever won was the person with the most hax. Also, the amount of hax can have no significance compared to the importance of it. Ex; Gastrodon walls my entire team but I get a grit on the switch in that puts him in a zone where I can easily ko him vs my opponent getting 6 iron head flinches in a row against my physically defensive heatran. In one instance there was very little hax but it was incredibly important but the other there was a ton of hax that wasn't important.

    I think the importance of speed has been discussed, but did anyone explain trick room to this guy?


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  22. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Pokemon Trainer R is just saying what a lot of people have been saying for a long time: Pokemon is a luck-based game for children.

    Not really sure what it has to do with the importance of speed, but hey, the point still stands.
    I didn't know that gambling was for children...

    Anyway, my first post on this page was just addressing what Zachmac said in his post directly above that, but you could say that what I said ties in with the importance of Speed due to the fact that Speed-ties, which are essentially coin flips, are also one of the many entirely luck-based factors that often heavily influence the outcome of a battle.

  23. #48
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    Let's get the point in pokemon people love to just hit harder and faster because of this some pokemon get over looked . As for trick room great move just some people try over do their team with the move and places pokemon that are slow but can't take a hit . Take point the champion Ray had trick room user on his team and didn't see anybody else . To me it seems like on wifi people are using weather teams for the speed and for the easy ok
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  24. #49
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    Ps I love trick room and pokemon that are slow that take hits and throw around their power like metagross or torterra. This what I think people feel safe with a faster pokemon a slow one because their skill in the game is not up there yet .another reason you won't see trick room that much because some people look at it as a gimmicky move but people with skill see the worth in such a move. Oh if use trick room team they make the best counters to weather teams as speed boost they get is screw up and now are force to deal with a effect that is a game changing move.
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  25. #50
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    Speed matters,plain and simple. Speed can easily determine who wins a battle. Especially if it hits fast AND hard.

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