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Thread: Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Basically that. All it took was a little speed to throw Blaziken from UU all the way to Ubers.

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    ok....


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  2. #52
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    speed plays a role in winning a battle but it has to be combined with a number of other factors in order to win. good resilience and strength in a team is what
    i think is important. if you cant handle the heat your bound to fall apart and start making bad desicions

  3. #53
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    Luvdisc has excellent Speed, especially for NU. Would you ever use it?

    On the other hand, let's look at... Gengar, one of only two Pokemon to have remained in OU since the 1st generation. Gengar sports two great stats; Speed and Sp. Atk. It has paper-thin defenses, only decent typing, and no real support viability over things like Dusclops and Jellicent. If he didn't have that great combination of Speed and offensive power, he'd be a lower tier Pokemon too, but his ability to KO threats before they can touch him makes him a top-tier threat. (That, and that damned SubDisable set...)
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  4. #54
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    Speed is the reason Tornadus-T is a suspect, the reason Shay-S is Uber, the reason Deo-S (duh) was banned... Yeah, kinda important.
    Of course, if you don't like it, there's always TReuniclus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agonist View Post
    By that logic, Magikarp should be pretty good, considering it outspeeds a fair number of Pokémon.
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  5. #55
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    Speed doesn't matter much if you don't have the stats to make use of it.

    Electrode, Jumpluff, Persian, Purugly and so much more have good Speed stat, yet see little use in OU. Why is that? There's almost always something with better stats, yet slower, that can fill their roles very well.

    About hitting hard and fast, it's just a playing style. If you don't want to get hit much, use something that can take hits!
    Or you can just outspeed and hit hard(er). But that just makes thing go back to the fact that 'Speed rules' (it doesn't really).

  6. #56
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    Going first is very important in ANY game, pokemon included. Now with Gen 5 out there are a ton of fast pokemon who are also very strong. The power creep is so high that it makes a lot more sense to use a fast pokemon with high attack rather than a slower pokemon with a slightly higher attack.
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    Look at it like this, i had a Gliscor, he was EV trained in attack and speed. I played my friend, his pokemon were EV trained, and could one hit my Gliscor if they were to attack it using one of their many supper effective moves. However, none of his team was fast enough, so i destroyed his whole team with just my Gliscor. It doesn't matter how strong or what move sets you have, if you are not fast enough, that can spell your end. My Gliscor was the Acrobatics based one with sand veil, so i was able to one shot his tank, had he used one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wecondo12 View Post
    simply put, speed is a matter of life and death. its kill or be killed. if something threatening outspeeds you, you will die unless you switch.
    I think its more that 5th gen metagame calls for a more offensive playstyle than other gens. Not that speed wasnt important before but I feel like in 5th gen with a lot of new really fast/powerful Pokemon you are kind of forced to adjust to it and in this case I guess adjusting led to a more fast paced offensive metagame that needs a lot more prediction skill instead of a slower metagame with a lot of stall and whatnot.
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  9. #59

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    you need to be fast or bulky, but remember speed is nothing if it can not take a hit look at ninjask it is the fastest pokemon there is after one turn of speed boost but it does nto have the life to attack with its reasonable Atk and STAB with a bug type move. That is why garchomp was in uber tier for a bit. It was to well balanced.that pokemon may never see below OU. but a pokemon needs reasonable health def and spd to be able it a real competitor.

  10. #60
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    while speed is important the power that backs up the speed is just as important, if not more. Ninjask has teh best speed next to deoxys speed, yet hes RU, as divine said luvdisc has good speed, but luvdisk sucks massive. Even with the constant need to outspeed our opponent, its more the power and the strategy you use. Tyrannitar doesnt need speed to beat latios, celebi doesnt need speed to beat keldeo. Even if your a slow bulk mon like conkeldurr, priority gives you an edge, as well as predicting a switch in.

    and lol@jesusfreak



  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Speed is important because it's the only stat that, when calculated into the game, is completely black and white (pun intended). Either you attack first or you don't. Other stats are different since they affect damage on a percentage basis, and while one speed point can be the difference between life and death, one point in one of the other stats probably will not. Having tons of power means next to nothing if your opponent hits and kills you first, which is why Rampardos is in NU right now; it hits hard, but it has neither the speed to beat many offensive threats or the bulk to take hits from the faster ones.

    Not to mention that the POTW doesn't make that much of a deal about speed. Many Pokemon function perfectly fine even without much speed at all, such as Ferrothorn and Reuniclus. While speed on a defensive Pokemon is nice at times, it's usually going to be a priority on offensive Pokemon. If an offensive Pokemon has plenty of bulk, then it can usually function properly even without speed because it doesn't mind taking a hit all that much. Conkeldurr is actually a great example of this. However, if that Pokemon is fairly frail, then it needs to have a high speed stat to make sure it can kill off the opposition before they kill it. This is why Pokemon like Darmanitan are in lower tiers; their speed stats are just low enough to lose to a vast number of offensive Pokemon in the upper tiers, and they don't have great bulk to compensate.
    ^ It is exactly as he said. But if you want like most people you could slower pok'emon like skarmory,jellicent,regice,tyranitar etc. Because even though they are slow they pack a big punch. Really I could probably rant about this all say but I won't. Speed is good but it's not everything,enough said.


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  12. #62
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    Here's an interesting hypothesis: Would Speed still be that important if the calculations of which pokemon goes first was handled in the same way the game determines the success of a semi-accurate move?

    I mean I kind of find the Pokemon games to be mostly luck-based to begin with, such as when the power of a Pokemon's attack fires between 85 and 100 percent power each turn, when a taunt effect or confusion status decides to finally disappear, and when the Treasure Hunter on Route 13 gives you a different item from what you really wanted from him every day. If the effects of a trainer's outcome in the game is mostly determined by the roll of a dice, then doesn't the rule of giving the pokemon with the most speed 100% authority to land the first hit become more of a hindrance to the overall games' luck favored motifs?

    Anyway, suppose that the decision of which Pokemon goes first was followed by a formula or two that predetermines that first move by a random number. Higher speed pokemon would simply have a higher probability over slower speed pokemon, but the game's choice of a number between 0 and 10 could allow for the slower pokemon a chance to use it's heavy attack before it's faster opponent without the need for a priority +1 move or trick room. I kind of see the formulas playing about something like this:

    Priority of player 1's ability to move first = PL1's PKMN'S Speed * Random Number / 100
    A random number between 1 and 10 would determine the total of Player 1's Attack Speed Number.
    Priority of player 2's ability to move first = PL2's PKMN'S Speed * Random Number / 100
    A random number between 1 and 10 would determine the total of Player 2's Attack Speed Number.

    Then whoever ends up with the higher Attack Speed Number goes first.

    If you can picture something similar to a battle between pokemon like Cacturne (slow) and Terrakion (fast) with this formula in mind, you might find a light of hope for the Cacturne landing that OHKO Energy Ball before surrendering to that killer Close Combat.

    So I would think that this major change in the speed rule could make battling more exciting and full of tension while still valuing the importance of speed for all pokemon, but at the same time making the battles a little less stale. Of course priority+ moves would go first 100% of the time, keep that in mind. I find that this concept of speed being a luck based status works out alright in older RPGs like Dragon Quest, and it doesn't necessarily make those games anymore difficult than they already are, so if this was how the Pokemon battles functioned from now on, I could live with it.


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  13. #63

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    Read this topic I made on GameFAQs long ago.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokéMaster Forever View Post
    Read this topic I made on GameFAQs long ago.
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    I wish I was around for that discussion when it was still fresh. I guess this means we can agree that such a change is still welcomed by some, even if many players will reject the idea fearing the end of the metagame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokonpower View Post
    I wish I was around for that discussion when it was still fresh. I guess this means we can agree that such a change is still welcomed by some, even if many players will reject the idea fearing the end of the metagame.

    Best that can be done for now is continue to dream the dream.
    I wouldn't say it would "end" the metagame, meaning competitive Pokemon would no longer exist. Drastically change, perhaps, but change isn't always a bad thing, now is it?
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokonpower View Post
    I wish I was around for that discussion when it was still fresh. I guess this means we can agree that such a change is still welcomed by some, even if many players will reject the idea fearing the end of the metagame.

    Best that can be done for now is continue to dream the dream.
    Seems a bit extreme that it spells out the Armageddon of competitive Pokemon. It is what it is; don't fix what isn't broken, you know?
    Speed is just as important as any other stat, and actually adds an element of strategy to what is, admittedly, a mostly luck-based game. This is just one way to make it easier to decide who goes first without making it totally unfair.


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  18. #68
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    Lets not try to fix something that needs no fixing.
    85% of statistics are made up on the spot, don't bother putting this in your signature, because i made this statistic up too.

  19. #69

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    To be honest, I don't like the idea of adding a probability that a slower Pokemon will move first. Pokemon is already a game dominated by luck as it is, and the last thing we need is to take one of the few concrete statistics about the game and leave it at the mercy of the Random Number Generator. Speed is a powerful thing, but I just think that would be taking it too far.

  20. #70
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    You're never going to really know if this change in the rules of speed would go too far unless you try it for yourself.

    I mean how can we be sure that the gameplay is going to change for the better or the worse if we haven't experimented it yet? I'd gladly pledge for somebody to put together an online simulator with this additional rule just to see if the game could live up to these positive possibilities.


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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by theebay707 View Post
    just use Trick Room :]
    Yeeeeeeeeeah Boi! Trick Room these Speed based Pokémon & watch them cripple as you you smash them with your slugs of a Pokémon!
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  22. #72
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    If speed were determined on a random basis, it would only affect pokemon close in current speed tiers. It won't help particularly slow pokemon because they're still likely to go second. In Warhammer and other dice based games that still command a lot of competitive play, the fact that 1/6 times a given action is guarenteed to fail and 1/6 times it is highly probable to succeed doesn't make units with a gimmicky ability, that cost too much, and still fail 4/6 times on shooting or saves effective choices.

    It might encourage people to not max out speed, and instead calculate odds instead. However, I don't believe it'd worth the amount of additional randomness it would add to the game, not as a(n ex) competitve player at least. Attack and defense stats still can equal 100% KO or survival chances discounting criticals, but unless they put caps on speed rolls (ie. a pokemone with X speed > pokemon with Y speed always goes first anyways) it would add just another way to get blindsided out of nowhere by the dice. Universal crit chance is already bad enough.
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  23. #73
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    Speed is the single greatest factor that decides almost ALL battles, other than status and power. Sure, those two count, but Speed ALWAYS takes precedence. The success or defeat of your team most often depends on who can get that painful move in first.

    For example, if you were using Victini (not the Trick Room variants I use), you couldn't simply spam V-Create because your opponent is going to likely outspeed you after the first use (unless it's Trick Room, and then you can hit 4 times, if you KO 4 times).

    If you knock them out and you're faster each time, you can sweep without opposition, because they can't even touch you. That's why speed is so important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Fury View Post
    Speed is the single greatest factor that decides almost ALL battles, other than status and power. Sure, those two count, but Speed ALWAYS takes precedence. The success or defeat of your team most often depends on who can get that painful move in first.

    For example, if you were using Victini (not the Trick Room variants I use), you couldn't simply spam V-Create because your opponent is going to likely outspeed you after the first use (unless it's Trick Room, and then you can hit 4 times, if you KO 4 times).

    If you knock them out and you're faster each time, you can sweep without opposition, because they can't even touch you. That's why speed is so important.
    You only seem to be describing offense vs. offense here. If you can take a hit and hit much harder back, you have the advantage, even if you're slower. Take Ferrothorn and Starmie for example. The starfish can barely touch the thing, and Ferrothorn could easily decimate it with a STAB power whip.
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    Because no one wants to get hit and fainted before even getting a chance to attack the opponent.
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