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Thread: It's not THAT Bad

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Okay, if you like it, fine. I have no problem there. The Adventure games messed up the series pretty badly in terms of gameplay (the most important element in any game), though. You can't just get rid of speed from the gameplay for the sake of adding "variety" to the series, that's an inherent part of the series' identity. That's like taking monster battling out of Pokemon.



    Explain. I fail to see what Shadow the Hedgehog did that could possibly have done worse than anything either Adventure game did.
    First off, the different styles in the adventure games ( except Big's, the driving stages, and Amy's) not only added variety, but were also fun to play most of the time. I enjoyed the mech stages because they move at a pretty quick pace and still have fun and unique elements. The Treasure Hunting stages were hit-and-miss in terms of stage design but once again, the gameplay was still decently fun. What Shadow did wrong wasn't the guns, but a multitude of other things. The game boasts that your choices matter, but the 10 different endings you can get are NOT canonical, which means that your choices ultimately didn't matter. A lot of the missions were tedious as all hell. They boil down to kill X enemies, activate X items, or reach the goal ring. Even from a gameplay standpoint, the morality is negligent. Even when you're HELPING Black Doom, his soldiers will STILL attack you. That is just plain stupid. The level designs sans Westopolis and Circus Park are bland, forgettable, and just feel lifeless. The process of getting all ten endings is tedious because instead of getting one ending in say Lava Shelter and then redoing it for the other one, you have to go all the way back to Westopolis, and do all the levels again JUST to do the other mission in Lava Shelter. That just unnecessarily pads the game out. The story is trying to be edgy and dark, but it comes off as dull. Black Doom is one of the least interesting villains in the Sonic Series. I will concede that some of the music is well done and the gunplay is actually pretty good, but all of these flaws just soil the experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordLucario21 View Post
    First off, the different styles in the adventure games ( except Big's, the driving stages, and Amy's) not only added variety, but were also fun to play most of the time. I enjoyed the mech stages because they move at a pretty quick pace and still have fun and unique elements. The Treasure Hunting stages were hit-and-miss in terms of stage design but once again, the gameplay was still decently fun.
    Most of what you're saying here is subjective. If you can have fun with the game, good for you, but that says nothing about what makes the game "good". If you truly believe that the Adventure games are the right direction for the series to go in, then answer me this: How do gameplay styles like the mech shooting and the treasure hunting fit the spirit of the series? How does it improve on what the series has done before? This isn't just about personal experience, it's about establishing a reputation and sticking with what makes the series successful and enjoyable to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordLucario21 View Post
    What Shadow did wrong wasn't the guns, but a multitude of other things. The game boasts that your choices matter, but the 10 different endings you can get are NOT canonical, which means that your choices ultimately didn't matter. A lot of the missions were tedious as all hell. They boil down to kill X enemies, activate X items, or reach the goal ring. Even from a gameplay standpoint, the morality is negligent. Even when you're HELPING Black Doom, his soldiers will STILL attack you. That is just plain stupid. The level designs sans Westopolis and Circus Park are bland, forgettable, and just feel lifeless. The process of getting all ten endings is tedious because instead of getting one ending in say Lava Shelter and then redoing it for the other one, you have to go all the way back to Westopolis, and do all the levels again JUST to do the other mission in Lava Shelter. That just unnecessarily pads the game out. The story is trying to be edgy and dark, but it comes off as dull. Black Doom is one of the least interesting villains in the Sonic Series. I will concede that some of the music is well done and the gunplay is actually pretty good, but all of these flaws just soil the experience.
    And these are pretty valid complaints, but you're acting as if this is the game that single handedly ruined the series, and I don't see anything here that really applies to other games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Most of what you're saying here is subjective. If you can have fun with the game, good for you, but that says nothing about what makes the game "good". If you truly believe that the Adventure games are the right direction for the series to go in, then answer me this: How do gameplay styles like the mech shooting and the treasure hunting fit the spirit of the series? How does it improve on what the series has done before? This isn't just about personal experience, it's about establishing a reputation and sticking with what makes the series successful and enjoyable to everyone.



    And these are pretty valid complaints, but you're acting as if this is the game that single handedly ruined the series, and I don't see anything here that really applies to other games.
    I think we can agree to disagree on the Adventure games. I think that they don't add to the reputation or accessibility of the series but instead provide a nice alternative to the regular sonic and Shadow levels. I'm not saying they should be everywhere, but I think the Adventure series symbolizes experimentation with different styles to find a good groove. I admit they aren't masterpieces, but they still are fun to me. But I actually f'ed up on my part because I forgot to say that I don't think Shadow is the worst one, '06 is. I'm just saying that this marked a bad time in the franchise. They were trying too many things out in this age. (ESPECIALLY with 06) 06 ruined the series for a while, but Shadow started that Dark age. I'm actually glad that we can debate about such a sensitive topic ( I the Sonic fandom) like civilized people.
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    Sonic Adventure is a good game. Especially when you pretend it's not a Sonic game. Then it's really good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordLucario21 View Post
    But I actually f'ed up on my part because I forgot to say that I don't think Shadow is the worst one, '06 is. I'm just saying that this marked a bad time in the franchise. They were trying too many things out in this age. (ESPECIALLY with 06) 06 ruined the series for a while, but Shadow started that Dark age. I'm actually glad that we can debate about such a sensitive topic ( I the Sonic fandom) like civilized people.
    Speaking of 06, I don't see much wrong with that game either. It's certainly nothing too special, and an unpolished, glitchy mess, but I don't think it entirely deserves the hate it gets, a lot of people tend to exaggerate its flaws a bit. It's still very much playable and enjoyable a game, and IMO a better attempt at the Adventure formula than the Adventure games themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Not to stereotype or anything, but don't most sonic fans hate Sonic Unleashed the most?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NintendoCoke View Post
    Not to stereotype or anything, but don't most sonic fans hate Sonic Unleashed the most?
    The Sonic fanbase is fractured so badly that pretty much every game past the Classics is hated by someone for some reason.

    And I'm glad you brought up Unleashed, because that's a great example of where Adventure fanboys' nostalgia comes into play. People hate on Unleashed for being too linear and automated, but SA1 and SA2 were just as bad, if not worse. They also hate on the Werehog because it's too slow, but again, SA1 and SA2 had more than their fair share of bad gameplay styles. They bash Modern games that do these kinds of things while simultaneously praising the Adventure games in spite of them.
    Last edited by Bolt the Cat; 25th December 2012 at 12:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    The biggest problem with Black Knight was that the motion controls were laggy, it was harder to time your strikes. That, and I found the gameplay to be too slow for my tastes.

    And most of the people who think that the Adventure games are the best Sonic games ever are blinded by nostalgia, SA1 and SA2 did much more harm than good to the series.



    It's a pretty good game as far as spinoffs go, but the design needs more work. Most notably situations where your allies are blocking the only path through the level and you're forced to defeat them to progress. Other than that, it's more so the feel of the game that people hate, they think that guns are inappropriate for a Sonic game and that they're trying too hard to be edgy. I disagree, I think it actually works quite well if done right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Okay, if you like it, fine. I have no problem there. The Adventure games messed up the series pretty badly in terms of gameplay (the most important element in any game), though. You can't just get rid of speed from the gameplay for the sake of adding "variety" to the series, that's an inherent part of the series' identity. That's like taking monster battling out of Pokemon.



    Explain. I fail to see what Shadow the Hedgehog did that could possibly have done worse than anything either Adventure game did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Most of what you're saying here is subjective. If you can have fun with the game, good for you, but that says nothing about what makes the game "good". If you truly believe that the Adventure games are the right direction for the series to go in, then answer me this: How do gameplay styles like the mech shooting and the treasure hunting fit the spirit of the series? How does it improve on what the series has done before? This isn't just about personal experience, it's about establishing a reputation and sticking with what makes the series successful and enjoyable to everyone.



    And these are pretty valid complaints, but you're acting as if this is the game that single handedly ruined the series, and I don't see anything here that really applies to other games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Speaking of 06, I don't see much wrong with that game either. It's certainly nothing too special, and an unpolished, glitchy mess, but I don't think it entirely deserves the hate it gets, a lot of people tend to exaggerate its flaws a bit. It's still very much playable and enjoyable a game, and IMO a better attempt at the Adventure formula than the Adventure games themselves.
    Are you liking the worst things possible about Sonic games on purpose or are you just trolling? Legit question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Speaking of 06, I don't see much wrong with that game either. It's certainly nothing too special, and an unpolished, glitchy mess, but I don't think it entirely deserves the hate it gets, a lot of people tend to exaggerate its flaws a bit. It's still very much playable and enjoyable a game, and IMO a better attempt at the Adventure formula than the Adventure games themselves.

    I've played this game, and I own this game. Let me tell you something about this game. This game is so terrible It gives me no frame of reference within the material universe with which to compare it.

    The game barely explains itself or gives any sort directions. They had solid ideas but failed in executing all of them. Ex: Talking to people to gather information. What a great idea it will make the game more immersive. NO! They reference landmarks that you don't know about. "He's by the bell tower","It's by this", "It's by that". All the buildings look the same. There's no map for the over worlds either just a mini map which gives you only a small portion of the map which is really only useful for referencing a full map if you go and print one of the internet or draw your own. Any game model that isn't a main character or enemy look like crap. It's just rubbish not worth the effort of borrowing it from a friend.

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    Everyone hates Sonic 06 but I don't think it's that bad. I thought the story line was deep and something I could watch in a movie and the gameplay was interesting. (mostly Silver). Same with Shadow the Hedgehog and that's pretty much a guilty pleasure. I mean Sonic and guns don't go but this... it's alright.
    Last edited by はるひ; 25th December 2012 at 1:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Are you liking the worst things possible about Sonic games on purpose or are you just trolling? Legit question.
    I fail to see how you think I'm trolling at all. I like Shadow and 06 better than the Adventure games because at least those two are trying to be innovative in a positive way. Shadow does have some questionable design choices, yes, but nothing that's absolutely game breaking. 06 is a glitchy mess and kind of all over the place, but at least it does better than the Adventure games at trying to be a fast paced platformer which is what a Sonic game should be almost 100% of the time.

    [QUOTE=Nido Knight #034;15506067]I've played this game, and I own this game. Let me tell you something about this game. This game is so terrible It gives me no frame of reference within the material universe with which to compare it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    The game barely explains itself or gives any sort directions. They had solid ideas but failed in executing all of them. Ex: Talking to people to gather information. What a great idea it will make the game more immersive. NO! They reference landmarks that you don't know about. "He's by the bell tower","It's by this", "It's by that". All the buildings look the same. There's no map for the over worlds either just a mini map which gives you only a small portion of the map which is really only useful for referencing a full map if you go and print one of the internet or draw your own. Any game model that isn't a main character or enemy look like crap. It's just rubbish not worth the effort of borrowing it from a friend.
    I personally didn't have too much trouble with the hub worlds (although I did watch playthroughs so I knew what to expect), but I see your point. Yeah, the hub worlds are too confusing to navigate, but I wouldn't consider that too big a problem since once you're done with the storyline, you never have to go back there again unless you want the Silver Medals there. Meanwhile, the action stages can be really fun to play for the most part (the only real exception being mach speed zones).
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Speaking of 06, I don't see much wrong with that game either. It's certainly nothing too special, and an unpolished, glitchy mess, but I don't think it entirely deserves the hate it gets, a lot of people tend to exaggerate its flaws a bit. It's still very much playable and enjoyable a game, and IMO a better attempt at the Adventure formula than the Adventure games themselves.
    I wanted to write a reply to this explaining everything wrong with this game. It was simply too long to be readable. I'll just break it down as quickly as possible. I'm not surprised if I end up messing up my point completely tbqh.

    06 had several issues with the controls, awful hub worlds with repeated landmarks that easily confuse players and with nothing interesting, awful missions, you couldn't jump into enemies and terrible playstyles. This game is an unfun abomination and it boggles my mind to see that there are people who like this game.

    at least it does better than the Adventure games at trying to be a fast paced platformer which is what a Sonic game should be almost 100% of the time.
    I fail to see how 06 is a fast-paced platformer and somehow the Adventure games aren't. All three games have platforming in their stages, so I don't know fail to see how one is a platformer and the ither two aren't. If you can explain, would you please do so?

    Meanwhile, the action stages can be really fun to play for the most part (the only real exception being mach speed zones).
    Not really. Sonic is much slower and has lots of problems with his controls, Tails is annoying because he is painfully slow, even though he's normal Tails, no mechs or anything but hell I played both Adventure 2 and 06 and I'd argue that the mechs feel faster than Tails in this game. He also has a terrible attacking method. The fake rings were already in Heroes, but you could tell the difference. In 06, if you got hit while attacking, you were confused because you didn't know which rings were real and the first person mode is awful, considering that the camera can easily get you hit. Knuckles is also painfully slow, which again, doesn't make sense. Hell in the Adventure games, even if Kunckles' stages weren't about going fast, you could still go fast, because it's Knuckles and Knuckles has always been able to go fast. Why can't he go fast here? I mean, I could understand why Big was slow, I understood why the SA2 mechs weren't as fast as Gamma. But here, you're playing with Tails and Knuckles alone, no crap slowing them down. So why are they slow?

    Playing as Shadow was a chore because his combat based stages were just rooms of enemies after rooms of enemies. At least Omega could take them all out quickly, but as Shaodw, you had to button mash like crazy just to kill one enemy. Rouge is bad because she has Knuckles and Tails' speed and Tails' attacking method, and neither are any good. Silver runs at a snail's pace(even though that the fact that Sonic would a new rival that was a hedgehog like Sonic and Shadow made pretty much everyone assume he would be fast) and his psychic combat system seemed like a good idea, but it was very poorly handled. And last, but not least, Amy, the worst character in the game. Why? Because she is supposed to attack with her hammer, but the thing is that the hammer attack is incredibly slow, so the enemies end up hitting you before you can hit them. And she also has a double jump, that completely messes up your momentum. Blaze and Omega are the only good characters in the game.

    I know I mentioned the lack of speed as a problem. But there's a reason. The design of the stages. If you play the game and look at them, you can tell they are designed for you to go fast, but if most of the characters are slow, that means both the stages and the majority of characters are badly designed.
    Last edited by Josef Stylin; 25th December 2012 at 2:25 PM.

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    From my limimited perspective, Shadow the Hegehog is an attempt to mash up Ratchet and Clank with Sonic. The main problem with the game is that the speed based platforming and weapon focused combat don't mesh well. You need to stop running to kill the enemies, which kind of kills the pacing of the platforming. I don't think the game is terrible, but I can easily see why it has limited appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazie View Post
    From my limimited perspective, Shadow the Hegehog is an attempt to mash up Ratchet and Clank with Sonic. The main problem with the game is that the speed based platforming and weapon focused combat don't mesh well. You need to stop running to kill the enemies, which kind of kills the pacing of the platforming. I don't think the game is terrible, but I can easily see why it has limited appeal.
    Actually, the weapon based combat wasn't very bad. The guns locked on to nearby enemies and took them out in a couple of shots. It really didn't kill the pacing for me as I was only fighting the enemies for a brief moment.

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    Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2.
    Yes, it's story could have been better, and yes, the only lightsaber duel in the game (vs Vader) wasn't that good, but everything else was good. Heck, for once a wii game had great graphics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    I fail to see how you think I'm trolling at all. I like Shadow and 06 better than the Adventure games because at least those two are trying to be innovative in a positive way. Shadow does have some questionable design choices, yes, but nothing that's absolutely game breaking. 06 is a glitchy mess and kind of all over the place, but at least it does better than the Adventure games at trying to be a fast paced platformer which is what a Sonic game should be almost 100% of the time.
    Well, first you say that the Adventure series did more harm than good to the series. Even when the majority of people that played them think they were a step in the right direction as far as 3D goes. Then you say Shadow the Hedgehog could have worked while saying that it did nothing worst than what the Adventures did. Then you say Sonic 06 was a better attempt at an Adventure formula than the originals themselves.

    So let me get this straight. Controlling three different hedgehogs, two of which weren't fast and the third which was barley fast is better? Using psychic energy and guns and 4-wheelers are more Sonic-ish than exploring wide open area(while still being fast) looking for plot devices that have been established since the first few games? You still move faster in the shooting stages than anyone does in Sonic 06. I'll admit that I'd rather have the shooting stages be Eggman only so Tails can race Sonic or w/e but it wasn't to terrible.

    Sonic 06 was not a better attempt. It could have been a good game but it wasn't. Neither is Shadow the Hedgehog with it's billion of endings and fail attempt at making a edgy dark character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullkid View Post
    Actually, the weapon based combat wasn't very bad. The guns locked on to nearby enemies and took them out in a couple of shots. It really didn't kill the pacing for me as I was only fighting the enemies for a brief moment.
    Well I am only speaking from watching my brother play. Maybe I will try out the game myself.


    On a note related to this thread, I never understood why people care so much about sorting games into piles based on some sort of objective quality. I can understand needing video game reviews to make sure you don't buy something disspointing, but people get into very heated debates about what games you are and aren't supposed to like/play/buy. It seems a little excessive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Well, first you say that the Adventure series did more harm than good to the series. Even when the majority of people that played them think they were a step in the right direction as far as 3D goes. Then you say Shadow the Hedgehog could have worked while saying that it did nothing worst than what the Adventures did. Then you say Sonic 06 was a better attempt at an Adventure formula than the originals themselves.

    So let me get this straight. Controlling three different hedgehogs, two of which weren't fast and the third which was barley fast is better? Using psychic energy and guns and 4-wheelers are more Sonic-ish than exploring wide open area(while still being fast) looking for plot devices that have been established since the first few games? You still move faster in the shooting stages than anyone does in Sonic 06. I'll admit that I'd rather have the shooting stages be Eggman only so Tails can race Sonic or w/e but it wasn't to terrible.

    Sonic 06 was not a better attempt. It could have been a good game but it wasn't. Neither is Shadow the Hedgehog with it's billion of endings and fail attempt at making a edgy dark character.
    You're exaggerating most of the characters' speed (or lack thereof) in 06. It's only really slightly slower, and the only character that really has an issue with speed is Silver. At any rate, at least the gameplay is consistent in 06. In SA1 and SA2 it's all over the place. Especially in SA2 where you're constantly switching gameplay styles throughout the game when all you want to do is play the speed stages, it's extremely pace breaking.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Consistent gameplay doesn't matter when the gameplay is shitty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Well, first you say that the Adventure series did more harm than good to the series. Even when the majority of people that played them think they were a step in the right direction as far as 3D goes. Then you say Shadow the Hedgehog could have worked while saying that it did nothing worst than what the Adventures did. Then you say Sonic 06 was a better attempt at an Adventure formula than the originals themselves.

    So let me get this straight. Controlling three different hedgehogs, two of which weren't fast and the third which was barley fast is better? Using psychic energy and guns and 4-wheelers are more Sonic-ish than exploring wide open area(while still being fast) looking for plot devices that have been established since the first few games? You still move faster in the shooting stages than anyone does in Sonic 06. I'll admit that I'd rather have the shooting stages be Eggman only so Tails can race Sonic or w/e but it wasn't to terrible.

    Sonic 06 was not a better attempt. It could have been a good game but it wasn't. Neither is Shadow the Hedgehog with it's billion of endings and fail attempt at making a edgy dark character.
    I thought Sonic 06 was so fast they couldn't keep up with the character half the time, which was another flaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    Consistent gameplay doesn't matter when the gameplay is shitty.
    It's not shitty gameplay, though. Eithe way, I'd rather have mediocre gameplay the whole game then slightly less mediocre gameplay 1/3 of the time and shitty gameplay 2/3 of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It's not shitty gameplay, though.
    >Likes falling into pits because of Sonic's stiff and awkward controls and faling over when simply running into anything, including poeple and checkpoints
    >Likes Tails' poor flying controls and his bad attacking method
    >Likes getting stuck on walls with Knuckles and Rouge
    >Likes having to mash A like crazy just to take out one or two enemies out of the five or six that are located in the room with Shadow
    >Likes running at a snail's pace and dealing witha very poor execution on what could have been a good playstyle with Silver
    >Likes getting flipped over by anyting with Shadow's vehicle sections
    >Likes the mach speed sections that have so many flaws that I don't even know where to begin
    >Likes the snowboarding sections that also had very poor controls
    >Likes fighitng enemies with an extremely slow hammer attack and having a double jump that completely messes up your momentum, making you fall in a pit with Amy

    How do you live with yourself? Serious question.

    Either way, I'd rather have mediocre gameplay the whole game then slightly less mediocre gameplay 1/3 of the time and shitty gameplay 2/3 of the time.
    So, you'd prefer a game with no good parts at all over a game that has a few good parts? Are you ****ing serious?
    Last edited by Josef Stylin; 25th December 2012 at 8:51 PM.

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