Hariyama vs Machamp

[Gunwing]

I've read everywhere that Machamp is better than Hariyama. I do not understand why.

Both of them are fighting physical sweepers but their stats differ. I do understand that Machamp's overall stats are better than Hariyama but as a sweeper, I think Hariyama is better.

Here are two templates making me think that Hariyama is better.


Machamp@Toxic Orb

Max HP 384
Max Att 394 (x1.5)

Ability : Guts

Moveset : Earthquake/Brick Break/Poison Jab/Facade

I'm sure there is a better template for machamp please let me know.


Hariyama@Toxic Orb

Max HP 492
Max Attack 372 (x1.5)

Ability : Guts

Moveset : Close Combat/Earthquake/Facade/Poison Jab


Having Close Combat plus 492 hp is a major plus given the fact that he is holding toxic orb.

Tell me what you think.

[Ilan]

LOL? machamp have more power, better overall defenses (and not only HP), 100% accurate dynamic punch, 100% accurate stone edge and more base attack stat..
Poison jab and earthquake on a fighting type lol..

this is the main set:
@lum berry
No Guard
Adamant
252 HP, 252 attack, 4 defense
-Dynamic Punch
-Stone Edge
-Payback
-Bullet Punch

[Tyranitarquake]

Why would you give them a toxic orb over a flame orb?

[Gunwing]

Ok I got it. I didn't see the No guard ability. Thanks !

What's the difference between flame orb and toxic orb ? Less damage ?

Hariyama with guts and flame orb has 558 attack, Machamp with No guard has 394.

Also, Earthquake is a great attack so why did you say lol. I don't get it sorry.

[Gunwing]

Furthermore, Earthquake covers two more types (poison and electric) whereas Bullet Punch covers ice and rock already covered by Dynamic Punch.

[Ilan]

Ok I got it. I didn't see the No guard ability. Thanks !

What's the difference between flame orb and toxic orb ? Less damage ?

Hariyama with guts and flame orb has 558 attack, Machamp with No guard has 394.

Also, Earthquake is a great attack so why did you say lol. I don't get it sorry.

Flame orb have more durability than toxic orb.. toxic orb is mainly used on swallow which switchs often but isn't common on any other pokemon..
toxic orb does 1/16 in the first turn and 1/8 on the secound and in the third it does 3/8 and so on on the other hand flame orb always does 1/8 damage.

Ground and fighting have more or less the same coverage bar poison which can be hit by other moves but most fighting types prefer putting a more significant coverage move than ground like rock (rock/fighting is mostly unresisted see: terrakion) or dark or bug to hit psichic and ghost types which resist their STABs. Anyway it is usable for a few pokemons but it is mostly not productive overall (you need to really hate nidoqueen/king,golurk and croagunk to use earthquake on a fighting type)

Bullet punch is priority and machamp is really slow so.. he needs it in a pinch.Bullet punch is priority and machamp is really slow so.. he needs it to revenge kill or finish weakened sweepers or focus sash it is an important move when you are slow..

[Gunwing]

Thank you for your response.

So earthquake is only good against 4 pokemons ? Sorry I am still not convinced.

By reading your post, I also feel like bullet punch is very situational. Yes machamp is slow but he has HP.

Although I understand Dynamic Punch, Stone Edge and Payback clearly, I am not convinced by Bullet Punch which I would switch for Earthquake to cover electric and poison pokemons.

[Ghosts of the Forums]

hariyama is best as a phaser. that's why machamp is better for what you're looking for.

template:

Hariyama @Leftovers
Thick Fat
Careful
252Hp 252Sp.Def 4Def
-Whirlwind
-Force Palm
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

[Gunwing]

You would consider playing a careful Hariyama ? I think Hariyama's Sp Def is shockingly bad, 240 Max.

[Ghosts of the Forums]

yes, but he resists ice thanks to thick fat, and his high hp help him sponge blows.

[Gunwing]

Sorry but why would you attack Hariyama with fire or ice ?

[Ghosts of the Forums]

you'd switch him in on it. and sometimes, people dont have se attacks. point is, you're new, i understand. but in the world of competitiveness, not everything is just "oh lets se that." and choiced pokes come to mind.

[Ilan]

Thank you for your response.

So earthquake is only good against 4 pokemons ? Sorry I am still not convinced.

By reading your post, I also feel like bullet punch is very situational. Yes machamp is slow but he has HP.

Although I understand Dynamic Punch, Stone Edge and Payback clearly, I am not convinced by Bullet Punch which I would switch for Earthquake to cover electric and poison pokemons.

Those are the only 4 pokemons who resist rock and fighting coverage and are hit harder by earthquake there are few useful poison types anyway so..
Bullet punch? situational? really? how it is situational? it break focus sashs and sturdy which activated.. you are the one who listed poison jab lol it hits only grass type and even them are hit already effectively with dynamic punch..
it is way preferable to hit more pokemon overall than using something as situational as ground/fighting coverage the only fighting type who sometimes uses earthquake is terrakion and that's mostly as a filler.

Oh I guess you don't know that.. you can't switch when you KO a pokemon like in-game.

SE hits are not the only hits you will use neutral hits are sometimes better than SE (See: Dragon coverage being highly popular)

[Ghosts of the Forums]

Those are the only 4 pokemons who resist rock and fighting coverage and are hit harder by earthquake there are few useful poison types anyway so..
Bullet punch? situational? really? how it is situational? it break focus sashs and sturdy which activated.. you are the one who listed poison jab lol it hits only grass type and even them are hit already effectively with dynamic punch..
it is way preferable to hit more pokemon overall than using something as situational as ground/fighting coverage the only fighting type who sometimes uses earthquake is terrakion and that's mostly as a filler.

Oh I guess you don't know that.. you can't switch when you KO a pokemon like in-game.

SE hits are not the only hits you will use neutral hits are sometimes better than SE (See: Dragon coverage being highly popular)

exactly my point.

[Gunwing]

Yes i'm new and I have never played competitively, that is why I post this thread : to understand how you think and strategize. It's not easy to understand.

Thank you for your responses.

[Psycho Cut]

Harmiyama may have a higher attack Stat with Guts, when a Flame or Toxic orb is active, but even then, Machamp has a lot more advantages over Hariyama.

- Hariyama is stuck with a Flame Orb for this setup, so he can't utilise any useful items such as Leftovers, for recovery, or a Choice Band or Scarf for boosting Attack or Speed, respectively.

- Tying into the Choice Scarf thing, Hariyama is stuck with a middling speed, meaning that many things can come in on it and KO it before it has chance to attack, if they don't mind a Bullet Punch that is. Machamp also has a fairly mediochre speed stat, but, unlike Guts Hariyama, it can use a Choice Scarf to get around this. Scarf Machamp is a popular set

- No Guard + Dynamic Punch. This is the big one. Hariyama may have higher attack, but it can't make use of an extremely powerful move that automatically confuses your opponent and gains 100% accuracy like Machamp can.

[FrozenPhoenix96]

I prefer Machamp, because he looks a lot cooler than Hariyama does.

[Ilan]

I prefer Machamp, because he looks a lot cooler than Hariyama does.

/thread lol

Harmiyama may have a higher attack Stat with Guts, when a Flame or Toxic orb is active, but even then, Machamp has a lot more advantages over Hariyama.

- Hariyama is stuck with a Flame Orb for this setup, so he can't utilise any useful items such as Leftovers, for recovery, or a Choice Band or Scarf for boosting Attack or Speed, respectively.

- Tying into the Choice Scarf thing, Hariyama is stuck with a middling speed, meaning that many things can come in on it and KO it before it has chance to attack, if they don't mind a Bullet Punch that is. Machamp also has a fairly mediochre speed stat, but, unlike Guts Hariyama, it can use a Choice Scarf to get around this. Scarf Machamp is a popular set

- No Guard + Dynamic Punch. This is the big one. Hariyama may have higher attack, but it can't make use of an extremely powerful move that automatically confuses your opponent and gains 100% accuracy like Machamp can.

Scarf Machamp popular? are you sure?

a Choice Scarf set might seem like a good idea; however, even with this item attached, Machamp can't even outpace Timid Mismagius, making it a poor choice.

-Smogon

base 55 speed pokemons don't use choice scarfs..
Probably you won't see pokemons under base speed of 65 with choice scarfs.. if you don't outspeed everything unscarfed or at least your targets (like magnezone) you shouldn't use scarf.

[Gunwing]

So to be clear, you can't really improvise in competitions because of how well you know the meta game.

[Ilan]

No, I use pleny of gimmicks I like using them but I don't use useless stuff like poison coverage or ground/fighting coverage or bad moves like hyper beam and such.
There is a difference between gimmicks and stuff than can't work even on theory. in one of my teams I used golurk in OU although using a smogon set still.. I mostly make gimmiks in NU with eviolite and stuff I don't always use strict sets the machamp set I posted is from smogon but I can alter it by need if I feel like I need to survive rotom-W bolt switch 4 times or add earthquake if I feel golurk is everywhere (note: he is not)
To know what coverage you need to use you should know what threats exist in the metagame and be able to hit most of them.