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Thread: Should more Grass Types should learn Earth Power?

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    Default Should more Grass Types should learn Earth Power?

    Grass types are quite notorious for usually havig poor coverage, being especially strapped for options against Steel Types.

    Earth Power is a tutor move learned by a diverse group of pokemon but very few Grass Types (if i remember its like basically only Sunflora and maybe Cradilly). So it makes plenty of sense for Grass types to have Earth Power anyway and Grass lacks what Fire types get from solarbeam/energy ball and Water types get in Ice Beam. Would this lift many special based Grass types?

    Discuss.


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    Yeah, they should, issue is that Movepools for new pokemon have been getting smaller every gen, or at least it feels that way.

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    It makes total sense. Specially that grass literally exists in ground...it's a great idea and it would spice up the game a biT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phanpycross View Post
    Yeah, they should, issue is that Movepools for new pokemon have been getting smaller every gen, or at least it feels that way.
    Certainly compared to first and second and some thord generation pokemon , there was definitely a step down in TM Compatiblility after that and movepools are much more centralised since gen 4 and many moremails gimmick or one trick pony pokemon, especially when abilities are factor eg entraiment on durant and pyroar's abilities are essentially their only use.

    Tldr: lack of coverage and options is more of a gen 4ish ownwards problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Creyk View Post
    It makes total sense. Specially that grass literally exists in ground...it's a great idea and it would spice up the game a biT.
    I think it would definitely give pokemon like Roserade, Vileplume (especially since it had Moonblast now), Lilligant and well basically any of the many special attacking Grass types a much better chance, especially as they are just so susceptible to being walled by Steels. Earth Power would also threaten Poison types too. Ground really rounds out the coverage of Grass types and this is something they unfortunately lack compared to Water and other types who usually have much better TM Compatiblility and/or learn sets. Like you said, Grass and Ground are intrinsically linked so it makes enormous sense.
    Last edited by storm12; 17th April 2016 at 3:35 PM.


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    Yes. It's coverage, it does good damage, and heck the name of the attack "Earth Power" can be synonymous with plants. Shaymin can learn it, after all.

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    I doubt this warrants its own thread : s

    But imo, yes, but only the Grass-Types based off of seeds and plants that would involve roots. Most flower Pokemon are based off of the whole plant, but Pokémon based just off of leaves, flowers and fruits shouldn't. For example, Cherrim, Leafeon, Sceptile are all based purely off of a piece of the plant that hopefully shouldn't be under the ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aromatic Mist View Post
    I doubt this warrants its own thread : s

    But imo, yes, but only the Grass-Types based off of seeds and plants that would involve roots. Most flower Pokemon are based off of the whole plant, but Pokémon based just off of leaves, flowers and fruits shouldn't. For example, Cherrim, Leafeon, Sceptile are all based purely off of a piece of the plant that hopefully shouldn't be under the ground.
    Well it is more a matter of being part of a larger problem in regards to a very unevent distribution of coverage Moves for certain types compared to others.

    Considering how Gamefreak saw it acceptable to outfit Vileplume with Chlorophyll, considering it is based on a plant that does not utilise it, as well as fungi being grouped under the Grass type, I doubt that this is such an issue, effectively any plant/fungus will have some form of relationship with soil/ground/sediment, so that they can draw power from this isn't a huge stretch.


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    Absolutely not. Earth Power is normally learned by either Ground-Types or volcanic Pokemon, the description of the move itself says that the user causes the ground to erupt underneath the target. It's a move associated with volcanoes, pretty much the opposite of plants. Even when taught by move tutor it's pretty much only given to Ground-Types, Rock-Types, and other big and bulky Pokemon. Coverage is not a good excuse to screw up on the logic of a move. If a move to cover a weakness really is required, then a new one should be made.

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    Revising pokemon so that they are more "viable" is just a ploy by Nintendo to make people buy more games, by providing an excuse for Masuda to endlessly remake the same game for the umpteenth time with a slightly bigger price tag

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    Depends on what type of plant they're based off. It'd make sense for those based on under-ground figures like weeds(Oddish) to learn it
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    I think its pretty simple myself - even though there are slight differences, Earth Power is pretty much the special equivalent of Earthquake. As far as I'm concerned, anything that can learn Earthquake should have access to Earth Power, especially in the cases of pokemon like Venusaur and Meganium.

    But simply put, there are a lot of pokemon out there whose move sets, especially those by level up, need addressing.

    Look at Gengar. Its a freakin' beast on the battlefield. But of its commonly run moves, only Shadow Ball is a level up move. The rest (Sludge Bomb, Icy Wind, Psychic, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt) have to be taught to it. That might not be so bad, but look at what Gengar actually does get through level up: Shadow Punch. Sucker Punch. Lick. All useless on Gengar given the way its stats are distributed. And not a single poison type move. You'd think that given how they are poison types and that Gastly and Haunter are known as the "Gas Pokemon" that moves such as Poison Gas, Smog and Clear Smog would have shown up there (ok, those moves aren't all that viable in WiFi battles, but you can see my reasoning!)

    Then look at Sceptile. It gains the dragon typing upon mega evolving. Its special attack stat goes up quite a bit upon mega evolving. It's Mega Ability, Lightning Rod, serves specifically to increase its special attack stat further when hit by an electric type move. So what did they do to its moves? They gave him a dragon type move through level up. Was it Dragonbreath? Nope. Was it Dragon Pulse? Nope. It was Dual Chop. I really hope someone got a good smack for that f***-up.

    Also look at Seaking. It gets Peck. It gets Horn Drill. Does it get Drill Peck? Nope.
    Look at Steelix. Made of metal. Massive head. No stranger to ramming into opponents because it learns Tackle and Double-Edge. Yet it has to be taught Iron Head by Move Tutor.
    Then Marowak. Its head is literally a skull. It learns Headbutt naturally. Where's Skull Bash? Its an egg move!

    Then there is this whole thing surrounding the move Bite. Ok, it's not that great a move. But is it unreasonable to expect that any pokemon that can learn one of the Elemental Fang moves through level up should also get access to Bite through level up? Well, Charmander gets Fire Fang but Bite is a breed-only move. Gliscor gets Fire, Ice and Thunder Fang but Bite isn't available to it at all. Garchomp gets Crunch and Fire Fang, but no Bite.
    I'm not asking for game-changing alterations here, I'm just asking for logical progression, like what we get with Pikachu when you got from Thundershock to Thunderbolt to Thunder.

    IMO, if a pokemon looks like it should learn a move, or its description suggests it should learn that move, then it should damn well learn that move by level up. If you showed someone who knew nothing about pokemon an image of a Charmander and a Gible and then gave them a list of all moves and asked them to pick out what moves those two pokemon would learn, you can bet that Bite would be there somewhere. Look at them. It makes sense.

    If its got powerful arms, give it Mega Punch.
    If its got fangs, give it Bite.
    If its got claws, give it Slash.
    If its got a thick, powerful tail, give it Slam.
    If its got wings, give it Wing Attack.
    If its got a horn, give it Horn Attack.
    If its got a beak, give it Peck.

    These aren't competitive moves, but there is a surprising number pokemon that look like they should learn those moves but don't. I've always viewed Level Up moves as the "natural way" - pokemon the way nature intended them. So why doesn't Geodude, literally a rock with two powerful arms, not "naturally" get Mega Punch? It makes no sense to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinter1988 View Post
    I think its pretty simple myself - even though there are slight differences, Earth Power is pretty much the special equivalent of Earthquake. As far as I'm concerned, anything that can learn Earthquake should have access to Earth Power, especially in the cases of pokemon like Venusaur and Meganium.
    But it's not just a special version of Earthquake. The logic behind Earthquake is it's taught to Pokemon who are big, bulky, and heavy because they can cause the ground to shake with their weight. Earth Power is about causing the ground beneath the opponent to literally erupt. Simply having bulk isn't enough to cause this.

    To comment on the rest of your post, I agree to an extent that there are certain logical fallacies in move sets, but there's a good reason most of the time. Pokemon can only learn so many moves. Also, there's no reason to spread certain moves so commonly across most Pokemon. You're right that level up moves are the most natural of a Pokemon's moves, but the ones that should be learned by a large variety of Pokemon are normally reserved for TMs. As moves like Mega Punch or Bite aren't TMs, they don't have the luxury of being spread around easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    Absolutely not. Earth Power is normally learned by either Ground-Types or volcanic Pokemon, the description of the move itself says that the user causes the ground to erupt underneath the target. It's a move associated with volcanoes, pretty much the opposite of plants. Even when taught by move tutor it's pretty much only given to Ground-Types, Rock-Types, and other big and bulky Pokemon. Coverage is not a good excuse to screw up on the logic of a move. If a move to cover a weakness really is required, then a new one should be made.
    And Ice beam is learned by basically every water type, even those who inhabit warm or tropical waters. Earth Power may be geothermal energy (not lava, it definitely can'tcan't be lava) but it is still drawn from within the Earth which all plants and fungi essentially draw nutrition from. Furthermore many fire types learn solarbeam or energy ball- essentially im trying to say that there is something unfair happening with the grass type in that the majority of them lack essential coverage which othet types such as fire and water have as a given.

    Many grass type special attackers tend to be too small etc. To learn earthquake so having earthpower given to the same pool of pokemon as earthquake doesnt solve much plus i think there is probably not a massive difference between the compatibility lists of yhe two moves


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    Quote Originally Posted by storm12 View Post
    And Ice beam is learned by basically every water type, even those who inhabit warm or tropical waters. Earth Power may be geothermal energy (not lava, it definitely can'tcan't be lava) but it is still drawn from within the Earth which all plants and fungi essentially draw nutrition from. Furthermore many fire types learn solarbeam or energy ball- essentially im trying to say that there is something unfair happening with the grass type in that the majority of them lack essential coverage which othet types such as fire and water have as a given.
    Ice Beam is taught to Water-Types due to the association of water and ice. Solar Beam is given to Fire-Types because of their association with the Sun and sunny weather. Energy Ball is barely given to any Fire-Types, so I'm not sure what you're arguing for there. Given the Pokemon that currently learn Earth Power, there is no indication that just having a connection to the ground (and a flimsy one at that) enough to learn it, it's more about a volcanic power, even if it isn't lava-based. If you think that's unfair, then the solution is for Game Freak to make a new move that would make sense, not break the logic of an existing move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    Ice Beam is taught to Water-Types due to the association of water and ice. Solar Beam is given to Fire-Types because of their association with the Sun and sunny weather. Energy Ball is barely given to any Fire-Types, so I'm not sure what you're arguing for there. Given the Pokemon that currently learn Earth Power, there is no indication that just having a connection to the ground (and a flimsy one at that) enough to learn it, it's more about a volcanic power, even if it isn't lava-based. If you think that's unfair, then the solution is for Game Freak to make a new move that would make sense, not break the logic of an existing move.
    And thus if water being associated with ice despite said water type being a warm water dweller than how is plants being associated with earth much different?

    Admittedly i thoight more fire types learnt energy ball but solar beam is evidence enough.

    Logical reasoning has never been enough of an excuss for anything when it comes to pokemon tbh.

    Or otherwise a different ground type special move yes but i cant imagine what form this would take- earth power is most literally 'power of the earth' and just because its animation and description imply a literal eruption this obviouslt doesnt hsev to be the case, i more envision it like in tbe anime where it is more abstract earth energy


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    Quote Originally Posted by storm12 View Post
    And thus if water being associated with ice despite said water type being a warm water dweller than how is plants being associated with earth much different?

    Or otherwise a different ground type special move yes but i cant imagine what form this would take- earth power is most literally 'power of the earth' and just because its animation and description imply a literal eruption this obviouslt doesnt hsev to be the case, i more envision it like in tbe anime where it is more abstract earth energy
    The difference is that Ice Beam is just a plain and simple move dealing with ice, making an association with ice a strong enough connection to justify it. Earth Power is not simply the power of earth as you suggest, it is a volcanic attack, as evidenced by the volcanic Pokemon such as Magcargo, Groudon, Camerupt, and Heatran learning it as well as its description and animation in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    The difference is that Ice Beam is just a plain and simple move dealing with ice, making an association with ice a strong enough connection to justify it. Earth Power is not simply the power of earth as you suggest, it is a volcanic attack, as evidenced by the volcanic Pokemon such as Magcargo, Groudon, Camerupt, and Heatran learning it as well as its description and animation in the game.
    A plain and simple move dealing with ice? What youre basically arguing is that effectivelly all water types are associated with the ability to produce cold which just isnt the case. Else theyd be ice types! It is mpre that in gamefreaks reasoning water is elementally associated with ice; irrespective of the practicalities of a pokemon who lives in warm tropical seas being able to harness cold.

    Plants are associated with earth, to as much of an extent as water is to ice/cold, if not more so.

    Like i said above, earth power is not a literal eruption. The ground 'erupts with power'- not lava, else this would be lava plume. Earth power is an abstract earth energy, like energy ball is an abstract grass/plant energy. some lokemon who learn it are associated with lava etc. Yes, but quite a few aren't. I repeat, earth power is NOT a literal eruption of molten rock, at most it is geothermal heat, but channeled into a kind of abstract... 'earth power'...

    Edit: also a swathe of water/rock and ground/water pokemon learn this move by level up, breeding AND tutor so yeah, this definitely isnt lava.
    Last edited by storm12; 24th April 2016 at 1:58 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by storm12 View Post
    A plain and simple move dealing with ice? What youre basically arguing is that effectivelly all water types are associated with the ability to produce cold which just isnt the case. Else theyd be ice types! It is mpre that in gamefreaks reasoning water is elementally associated with ice; irrespective of the practicalities of a pokemon who lives in warm tropical seas being able to harness cold.

    Plants are associated with earth, to as much of an extent as water is to ice/cold, if not more so.

    Like i said above, earth power is not a literal eruption. The ground 'erupts with power'- not lava, else this would be lava plume. Earth power is an abstract earth energy, like energy ball is an abstract grass/plant energy. some lokemon who learn it are associated with lava etc. Yes, but quite a few aren't. I repeat, earth power is NOT a literal eruption of molten rock, at most it is geothermal heat, but channeled into a kind of abstract... 'earth power'...

    Edit: also a swathe of water/rock and ground/water pokemon learn this move by level up, breeding AND tutor so yeah, this definitely isnt lava.
    All I can really say at this pointing without repeating myself is that Game Freak knows what they are doing. Earth Power is a readily available move from a move tutor, and yet barely any Grass-Types learn it. If that is the case, Game Freak has their reasons. Because of that, the internal logic of the game dictates that there is no reason for Earth Power to be a commonly learned move by Grass-Types.
    Last edited by Bguy7; 24th April 2016 at 3:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    All I can really say at this pointing without repeating myself is that Game Freak knows what they are doing. Earth Power is a readily available move from a move tutor, and yet barely any Grass-Types learn it. If that is the case, Game Freak has their reasons. Because of that, the internal logic of the game dictates that there is no reason for Earth Power to be a commonly learned move by Grass-Types.
    That gamefreak know what they're doing isnt something i have massive faith in much anymore. They may have their reasons but that they randomly decided to add sunflora in shows there maybe was some consideration. In any case it is a huge disservice to a whole type that really needs help compared to gamefreak's favoured types like water and fire. Grass always, always remains the underdog.


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    It would improve them A LOT. They finally stand a chance against fire types. It could also help agains steel types.

    And plants grow in earth so it makes sense


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    Quote Originally Posted by vanillite1 View Post
    It would improve them A LOT. They finally stand a chance against fire types. It could also help agains steel types.

    And plants grow in earth so it makes sense
    This is my rationale in a nutshell. It provides them essential coverage would hugely improve their viability because it isnt the stats or potency of grass attacks that hold grass back, it is lack of options against steel and fire types who can outright wall them


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    All I can really say at this pointing without repeating myself is that Game Freak knows what they are doing. Earth Power is a readily available move from a move tutor, and yet barely any Grass-Types learn it. If that is the case, Game Freak has their reasons. Because of that, the internal logic of the game dictates that there is no reason for Earth Power to be a commonly learned move by Grass-Types.
    Game freak regularly makes terrible decisions that regularly follows no reasonable logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by storm12 View Post
    That gamefreak know what they're doing isnt something i have massive faith in much anymore. They may have their reasons but that they randomly decided to add sunflora in shows there maybe was some consideration. In any case it is a huge disservice to a whole type that really needs help compared to gamefreak's favoured types like water and fire. Grass always, always remains the underdog.
    Will how about this? Obviously someone understands their reasoning, as I do, so they can't be completely insane on this choice. I can assure you this has nothing to do with Game Freak playing favoritism.

    Quote Originally Posted by storm12 View Post
    This is my rationale in a nutshell. It provides them essential coverage would hugely improve their viability because it isnt the stats or potency of grass attacks that hold grass back, it is lack of options against steel and fire types who can outright wall them
    The first consideration when making a moveset is what makes sense. They think it doesn't make sense, so it's not taught. Movesets would be a lot crazier if they used that sort of logic before any other logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinter1988 View Post
    Game freak regularly makes terrible decisions that regularly follows no reasonable logic.
    Care to give an example?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    Care to give an example?
    You mean besides those in my earlier posts? Alright.

    How about the fact that in every generation, some amount of reference was made to the fact that Sandshrew digs, yet it took until Black2/White2 for Sandshrew to learn Dig naturally?
    How about giving Aerodactyl the Rock Head ability and then only giving it access to Take Down?
    How about taking until Generation 4 before making Bite a part of Rattata's natural learn set?
    How about the fact that in Generation 1, Sandshrew, Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Onix, Rhyhorn and Rhydon did not learn a single ground type move naturally, Voltorb and Electrode did not learn a single electric type move naturally, Rhyhorn and Rhydon did not learn a single rock type move naturally and Butterfree, Scyther and Pinsir did not learn a Bug type move at all?
    How about not giving Lickitung the move Lick in Generation 1?

    How about not letting Mightyena have the ability to recall Thunder Fang, Fire Fang and Ice Fang through Heart Scale, despite the fact that its species name is "The Bite Pokemon", while pokemon like Gliscor can Heart Scale those moves.

    How about not letting Arbok get Poison Fang by level up or through Heart Scale, despite the fact it is poisonous, has fangs, can learn Bite and Crunch through level up and can get Fire Fang, Ice Fang and Thunder Fang through Heart Scale?

    How about not giving Aggron a single rock type move by level up until ORAS?

    How about Koffing not knowing Poison Gas in Generation 1, despite the fact that its species name is "The Poison Gas Pokemon"?

    How about claiming that Suicune is the embodiment of the North Wind, yet only giving it Gust?

    How about taking until Generation 4 to let Feraligatr learn Crunch naturally and then taking to ORAS to make the same change for Gyarados?

    How about making Florges' design be mostly a flower, make the grass type the most common type of moves it learns by level up, giving it the species name "The Garden Pokemon" and then not making it part Grass?

    How about not making Cofagrigus part steel when clearly its body is mostly a metal tomb?

    How about making an Elite Four member for Diamond and Pearl who specialises in Fire Types, despite the fact that Infernape and Rapidash were the only fire types available?

    How about removing all trainer rematch features from Black and White until X and Y?

    How about expanding into the realm of WiFi battling, then introducing many pokemon, including some Megas, who are so unbelievably broken that they have to be banned?

    Speaking of WiFi, have you seen the state of the GTS? Not well thought out at all!

    How about finally giving us access to a "Hard Mode" in Black2/White2, but force us to play through the game normally first before we can unlock that feature? How about taking that feature away entirely for X,Y and ORAS, and then making the games a lot easier, thus risking alienating a large portion of the market?

    How about no one ever going "Hey, we're about to transport Pokemon out to the rest of the world. Anyone think we should do something about Jynx? (Keep in mind that they had enough sensitivity to replace Brock with Tracey in the anime for a short while, yet no one seemed to suspect that Jynx might be a problem...)

    I could go on, but it's getting late.
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    Grass-types do badly against Fire-types. Grass-types do badly against Steel-types. They're supposed to be walled - that's what's called a type match-up and there's no reason to subvert it. If every Pokemon had a coverage move to counter every type, then what a tedious game this would be.

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