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Thread: What did Best Wishes do better than any other saga?

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Um, everyone's love regarding those first three seasons is based on nostalgia and nothing else.

    Plus, Johto's fillers were awful. And Ash's starters barely evolved.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyPokemon inc. View Post
    Have you heard of nostalgia
    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Nostalgia. Most of them are the same people who despise everything beyond gen 2.


    And Iris and Cilan aren't main characters.

    But you can't really expect this anime to make money on Ash and Pikachu alone. I mean, let's be real.
    There are people like Dwail that aren't all OMG EVERYTHING AFTER GEN 2 SUCKZ!

    Well true, but it's the walking pokemon that sells the merch not the person. Saddling Ash with Piplup and Axew would take care of that while all the episodes that would have gone to Dawn and iris could have been used on more development for Ash's pokemon and hopefully evolutions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    There are people like Dwail that aren't all OMG EVERYTHING AFTER GEN 2 SUCKZ!
    To be honest, I've seen far more people who act like I said they do. I just think there's more them than people like Dwail. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Well true, but it's the walking pokemon that sells the merch not the person. Saddling Ash with Piplup and Axew would take care of that while all the episodes that would have gone to Dawn and iris could have been used on more development for Ash's pokemon and hopefully evolutions.
    The characters also sell merch, not just the Pokémon.

    Plus, Pokémon has always been about traveling with friends. And if Ash had two people around him who barely did anything, people would get sick of them pretty soon which would lead to more bashing. The truth is, most people are happy that this isn't just an Ash show. You know why? Because people have gotten sick of Ash. Oh, how many comments have I seen especially when those B2/W2 anime trailer came out. Everyone were claiming how Ash needs to be replaced or that he finally needs to age.

    So yeah, having everything thrown at Ash wouldn't really be the best result as most of them are sick of him.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Saddling Ash with Piplup and Axew would take care of that while all the episodes that would have gone to Dawn and iris could have been used on more development for Ash's pokemon and hopefully evolutions.
    That would be the most boring anime in the world.

    Ash fanboys sadden me.

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    See the issue is twofold. One is random COTD fillers wasting time, and the second is that the sidekicks waste time. BW was pretty good about reducing the amount of random COTD fillers but if Ash traveled alone then the chances of us seeing more pokemon regularly than the plushie 5 would have gone up dramatically.

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    I don't understand how the travelling companions are wasting time. Even with Axew getting lost a lot and Cilan starring in connoisseur episodes, they still aren't taking away that much time from Ash. What they've done in this region is scrap the contest journey and go back to their routes, just having the casual travelling friends, but including them more which in my opinion is exactly the right thing to do.

    When it comes to poor development for Ash, its not the companions that are taking away from him, it's the poor writing in general. You can't blame Iris and Cilan just because you're not a fan, or you like Ash more than them. It's not their fault the writers have messed up Ash's focus so much..

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    I only have a few things to reply too...
    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPierce View Post

    Alot more people have been saying that Ash losing to Kotetsu, even if it places him less than in the Sinnoh League, is still not as bad as his loss to Tobias. And others still have said that this League had less distractions (like Team Rocket) than others. Mind you, I personally don't think this League is good at all, but I hardly think everyone finds it to be the worse.

    YOu know exactly why they're complaining about konestu. Personally, I don't get much of it. ADHD and stupidish. yet really good at battling...whats so wrong about that? Hell, I'm that =-=...what, you gonna turn me off as bad at battling? COME AT ME BRO. D8

    And...the only reason why the tobias is really that bad is because at the end of it...it set a huge standerd for Ash. Double legend win...

    And the lose against tobias was actually really really cool. I personally liked it. It really proved Ash accomplished something that region. I don't hate him NOT accomplishing something all that much, but damnit it still felt extremely good.


    The best chemistry of all time? You're joking. Being pefect buddy-buddy, high-fiving opposite gender counterparts to each other is boring chemistry, IMO.

    Its the complete opposite to a argumentative chemistry. Heh, I feel much more inclined to like a group that gets along and energizes each other to fight on, rather then one that agitates the other to gain viewer enjoyment. (it gets annoying after a while to me. =-=...) I like friendly rivalry, and I'm sure many others do. Its why I didn't mind, in fact, liked all of the rivals this gen. There was a balance in who was going to beat ash the moment trip was confirmed to lose in the first round. We didn't know who was gonna beat him...It was more fun then serious. Look at all the tournaments this region. I like that.

    Aside form that...my positives the region are.
    -many tournaments. Screwy as some of them are, they provide purpose, a type of purpose that I like. SOmething I haven't seen in any of the other previous regions nearly as much.
    -entertaining sidekicks. This one is controversial for many when I say I thought sinnoh was my favorite. I LOVED Dawn and Brock as sidekicks, I found entertainment in both of them. But I liked them for much different reasons then I like Brock and Dawn. And so far, they have not dissapointed those reasons.
    -...I wanna say N, but I'll wait for the special to come out. Just note that that when he does come out, this is his placeholder...cause no matter what happens, I still love his character. XD
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    I only have a few things to reply too...



    Aside form that...my positives the region are.
    -many tournaments. Screwy as some of them are, they provide purpose, a type of purpose that I like. SOmething I haven't seen in any of the other previous regions nearly as much.
    -entertaining sidekicks. This one is controversial for many when I say I thought sinnoh was my favorite. I LOVED Dawn and Brock as sidekicks, I found entertainment in both of them. But I liked them for much different reasons then I like Brock and Dawn. And so far, they have not dissapointed those reasons.
    -...I wanna say N, but I'll wait for the special to come out. Just note that that when he does come out, this is his placeholder...cause no matter what happens, I still love his character. XD
    The problem with the DP trio is Dawn and Brock had no chemistry together. That's why the BW trio stood out more as a cohesive group.

    The DP trio was just Ash and Dawn supporting each other while Brock was randomly there on the side. That groups chemistry overall was done poorly. BW has better chemistry overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    The problem with the DP trio is Dawn and Brock had no chemistry together. That's why the BW trio stood out more as a cohesive group.

    The DP trio was just Ash and Dawn supporting each other while Brock was randomly there on the side. That groups chemistry overall was done poorly. BW has better chemistry overall.
    I'll admit that I like the BW chemistry... but DP had the better development of the group. Iris's development always got rushed and Ash/Cilan never really got any development. At least in Sinnoh Ash and Dawn both developed
    3DS code:1048-8163-5480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    I'll admit that I like the BW chemistry... but DP had the better development of the group. Iris's development always got rushed and Ash/Cilan never really got any development. At least in Sinnoh Ash and Dawn both developed
    Yeah and it led to Brock's downfall in the anime. With two sidekicks as opposed to two costars there's nobody being left out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Yeah and it led to Brock's downfall in the anime. With two sidekicks as opposed to two costars there's nobody being left out.
    Brock was in decline long before DP even started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Yeah and it led to Brock's downfall in the anime. With two sidekicks as opposed to two costars there's nobody being left out.
    Yeah, but Brock was getting outdated in my opinion ^^;
    3DS code:1048-8163-5480
    Why exactly can't Ash get this little guy?
    "I already told you, I don't mind playing the bad guy every once in a while."~ Sonic the Hedgehog

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Brock was in decline long before DP even started.
    I know, but he still felt like he has SOME presence in late Johto and AG, even if he hardly did anything.

    I remember being really happy when Brock came back for Hoenn, I couldn't say the same for DP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    I know, but he still felt like he has SOME presence in late Johto and AG, even if he hardly did anything.
    I thought Brock lost presence down the stretch of Johto and AG... He always seemed to show up in the League though
    3DS code:1048-8163-5480
    Why exactly can't Ash get this little guy?
    "I already told you, I don't mind playing the bad guy every once in a while."~ Sonic the Hedgehog

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    The problem with the DP trio is Dawn and Brock had no chemistry together. That's why the BW trio stood out more as a cohesive group.

    The DP trio was just Ash and Dawn supporting each other while Brock was randomly there on the side. That groups chemistry overall was done poorly. BW has better chemistry overall.
    Brock and dawn had the same type of chemistry together as ash and brock, its just that ash knew brock way before this. He wasn't just randomly there... He was there because he liked traveling and helping ash, along with learning more about pokemon breeding. (Doctor by the end of it.) He didn't provide a pushing force. ._... Ash and Dawn were the two exictable younglings, while brocks the mentor and caretaker who has some...interesting traits. I personally, never got tired of it Brock, and to be honest, I've never gotten tired of any of the characters. Thats because things around them constantly changed. You don't have to change the person in order for them to develope and "good"...Its my main problem with people who constantly harp on "character developement."

    It is poorly done in viewer enjoyment...What is it about them that was bad? Explain exactly what was so terrible about Brock. He got boring? I'm sure they give two hoots. They worked together fine, they were a really close group, and they helped each other when needed. In the end, brock left for a change. And I understood and accepted that. But to say it was done poorly, rather then boring, is really not right ._....
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Brock had no overall presence in DP outside of those few fillers early on they have him. Cilan's gotten more episodes than Brock has gotten over the last two generations.

    I also don't understand why Brock's team stayed the same from 2007 to 2010. 3 years of the same team with no evo's or captures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Brock had no overall presence in DP outside of those few fillers early on they have him. Cilan's gotten more episodes than Brock has gotten over the last two generations.

    I also don't understand why Brock's team stayed the same from 2007 to 2010. 3 years of the same team with no evo's or captures.
    Writers are lazy, why bother writing in a new character when they can just reuse the ol brock?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Writers are lazy, why bother writing in a new character when they can just reuse the ol brock?
    lets take a different perspective...People like the same character, why not keep him and his traits in the anime so that people will contiune to watch it?

    The fact that ash is still this anime is way more prevelent then brock still being in the anime. If they wanted to leave their comfort zone and atcually "try" they would of got rid of ash a long fudgin' time ago. But I personally don't care. lol If they make a better version, then great, but I like watching my happy little adventure. If I need something better then pokemon, then there are PLENTLY of other series that I can watch. Let pokemon have it's lazy writers, because I'm perfectly okay with that if thats what you call them.
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Iris and Cilan have already competed in more tournaments in just 90 episodes than Misty/Brock did over their entire run. That's something BW did well and what they should have done with Misty/Brock years ago.
    Technically Misty and Iris are tied so far. Iris entered Club battle, Donamite and Junior Cup. Misty entered Princess festival tournament, Whirl Cup and unofficial tournament for Togepi.

    I honestly think the tag battle tournament in DP was the only real battle competition Brock was ever in.
    There was also tournament for fighting pokemon in Kanto, unofficial Togepi tournament, Contest battle against May and minor side competitions like one about "cheerleading increasing pokemon battle spirit" from Hoenn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Um, everyone's love regarding those first three seasons is based on nostalgia and nothing else.

    Plus, Johto's fillers were awful. And Ash's starters barely evolved.
    Nostalgia will often play important part in someones liking for certain things, but this is only part of reason why someone may like older series better over new ones.
    Reason why many people still prefer older sagas is because they enjoyed more in group chemistry and their engaging interactions which were never duplicated in same way later on, because style of writing was different( such as containing more reference to Japanese culture,wacky plots and humor for example, use of real guns causing some episodes to be banned because of that etc), because anime stick less with games with writers using more of their own imagination etc.

    About Johto fillers admittedly many of them were pretty bad, but there were many which were highly enjoyable as well if you ask me. Especially those mini tournaments like grass or fire competition, ones which focused on Misty or Brock, about recurring pokemon like Delibird etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Brock was in decline long before DP even started.
    Depends for who. I find Brock functioned pretty well in Hoenn having memorable interactions with May and Max, had decent amount of quality focus, entered several events and got more development on breeding carer compared to Johto.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Brock had no overall presence in DP outside of those few fillers early on they have him. Cilan's gotten more episodes than Brock has gotten over the last two generations.

    I also don't understand why Brock's team stayed the same from 2007 to 2010. 3 years of the same team with no evo's or captures.
    Frankly i believe your blowing things out of proportion.

    Personality wise he seemed pretty similar to me like he was in AG generation still acting calm,wise and irrational liking to flirt with girls acting like older brother and care taker being you could say "voice of reason in cast". He often gave advices to Ash and Dawn stopping them from rushing foolishly in danger, gave vibe of still being strong friend with Ash helping him in training Chimchar and later Infernape when perfecting flare blitz , training him prior to Roarks gym, played role in Ash and Dawn exchanging Buizel and Aipom etc.

    He had his moments in Sinnoh as well. Such as getting his first egg allowing to see his knowledge as breeder used to full potential growing from Happiny in strong and healthy Chancey, took care of various pokemon practicing skills and teaching Ash and Dawn about preparing medicine.
    Entered various contests like tag battle tournament,played role in Team Galactic arc along with Croagunk which developed rivalry with Toxicroac, entered pokemon transformation contest, Croagunk festival,summer school triathlon etc.

    DP maybe wasn't Brock strongest saga, but he certainly wasn't piece of background 90% of time like some tend to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Writers are lazy, why bother writing in a new character when they can just reuse the ol brock?
    Or they can try for change to fix mistakes they did with established character to make him interesting again, investing in someone who proven to be well received.

    Instead of every time diving in unknown territory with new one who might backfire ending unpopular. That's in reality laziness since writers rather use easier way by sweeping problems under rug, instead of dealing with them and coming with innovative ideas to keep things fresh.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 15th December 2012 at 8:01 PM.

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    Another to me is that he got to face a Lucario twice in a row from two different sagas.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post

    Instead of every time diving in unknown territory with new one who might backfire ending unpopular. That's in reality laziness since writers rather use easier way by sweeping problems under rug, instead of dealing with them and coming with innovative ideas to keep things fresh.
    I'm not gonna argue about the writers being lazy or nothing, but sometimes people are just complainers. :/...there is always a problem with a series, and trying to fix those problems isn't bad, but you'll never truly fix everything.
    Go look on Myanimelist...Some of my favorite seasonal series get bashed for things I just don't get at all. Kokoro connect had this one reviewer that gave it a 3 out of 10...And I LOVED kokoro connect, I felt it really did some things well. Somethings I understood about his complaints, and i guess it was so...but the whole "Emo cohorts in their circle struggle. Seriously, they don't even seem like real people." That was so baseless opinion that it was ridiculous...There are somethings that people just cannot fix, or if they fix them, they run into other problems or hardships that are really hard to get by. Sometimes its just better to leave the characters as they are. They are Their characters afterall.

    I am not defending the pokemon writers, Just want to clear that up. It is not in reality laziness, thats too much of a generalization.
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    Well true, but it's the walking pokemon that sells the merch not the person. Saddling Ash with Piplup and Axew would take care of that while all the episodes that would have gone to Dawn and iris could have been used on more development for Ash's pokemon and hopefully evolutions.
    This is a really ridiculous way of thinking. It's not like they were going to evolve Oshawott and then decided to make an episode about Axew instead. Decisions about Ash's development is barely affected by travelling companions, and even then I doubt it affects him much outside of a few "what Pokemon will he catch??" decisions.

    I really don't understand why certain people love Ash so much. If he was the only character who got any focus I think I'd explode. B|


    Even if the treatment of like... every Pokemon was awful, I still thought that the group's 'mons as a whole had pretty interesting personalities. Oshawott, Snivy, Scraggy, Leavanny, Emolga and Dragonite all stand-out, and even Krookodile, Palpitoad, Axew, Excadrill and Stunfisk have pretty interesting traits. Too bad they didn't get to show them off, haha. The whole Scraggy/Axew bromance thing was pretty sweet too.

    I actually liked Iris too (GASP). She had a cool personality, wasn't blatant fanservice, and had a much better done storyline than Misty's. Some things annoyed me about her (sporadic development, Axew being crippled with mascot status), but overall she was great. Plus dragons are awesome so.

    I think the statement BW's pros are DP's cons sums the topic up well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valoo. View Post
    I think the statement BW's pros are DP's cons sums the topic up well.
    My friend/rival in pokemon battles said that. I lol'd. I mostly agree. xD Compared to DP, it is like the complete opposite in style and characters.

    Which is why the change was so Jarring...And of course to do that, they had to mess with contiuality a bit. Right at the beginning it was obvious.
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nacreous View Post
    You know why Sinnoh was good?Because it had continuity.A beginning and a relevant end.Look at how BW started and look at how it is now...it's all over the place.
    ....WTF? Seriousy, wtf? You obviously don't know what continuity means with the way you're using it. BW had a beginning and it hasn't ended yet so there's absolutely no way to compare it's "relevant end" with Sinnoh's. And I find it hi-larious that you only mention the beginning and end for Sinnoh as means of praising it. I guess you don't even want to admit to the long, drawn-out, bloated middle that took up most of the series? Especially the part where it took 50 episodes to get from Ash's 7th badge victory to his 8th?

    Dropped storylines,too many captures that were poorly handled,terrible rivals.
    What dropped storylines? And don't say the Meteonite one; the airing of it's conclusion got postponed, but the storyline itself wasn't dropped.

    Too many captures that were poorly handled....can't believe that if you're not going to list any.

    And terrible rivals? D/P had those too, and they were generally worse!

    At least Sinnoh kept it straight.Ash trained his pkmn,they had a relatively varied movepool and even if Infernape got the most screentime,the rest of them had their moments too,even the bird[wich doesn't even compare to his current bird
    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZ.

    Seriously, training? Movepools? This isn't the video game, it's a freaking cartoon show. You enjoy watching all that for over 190 episodes? Then watch a Let's Play!

    The female companion had a revelant storyline.
    What the heck's a "revelant" storyline? And the female companion in BW isn't a "co-star" like Dawn, so of course her storyline will play out different. That's perfectly fine.

    so they had to make up for her terrible development,her little to no progress as a trainer
    More proof that this fandom's definition of "character development" is how strong or weak you become as a trainer. Personality growth? Who needs it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Janovy View Post
    Um, everyone's love regarding those first three seasons is based on nostalgia and nothing else.
    Ah, the old "nostalgia filter" accusation. Thrown around by anyone who can't comprehend that people may legitimately feel that old stuff is of better quality than new stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valoo. View Post
    I really don't understand why certain people love Ash so much.
    Because he's so flat a character that fanboys can project themselves onto him. He's like Bella Swan for boys. That felt good when he was portrayed as some uber-special powerful trainer, but now that he's regressed, the fanboys freak out about "bad writing" and ruining his "development". Never mind that, again, growth as a trainer is NOT growth in character. Ash is the same unchanging, two-dimensional dullard he's been for over a decade now, it's just a problem for these people now because they don't want to project onto him anymore.
    Last edited by AgentPierce; 15th December 2012 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPierce View Post
    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZ.

    Seriously, training? Movepools? This isn't a video game, it's a freaking cartoon show. You enjoy watching all that for over 190 episodes?


    More proof that this fandom's definition of "character development" is how strong or weak you become as a trainer. Personality growth? Who needs it!
    A cartoon show thats specifically made to advertise the video game. You know how many people want to see the games animated? They want to see the characters that they love in the games shown on screen and fleshed out. That does happen... However most of the characters they bring in are already fleshed out. The ones that aren't are Dawn, May...And thats all I can think of ._....I guess Ash as well, because he was supposed to be the anime version of Red. But Lol. The games personified is one of the reasons why I like pokemon special, but that's besides the point. Look, yes its a show so you can expand on things, and you SHOULD...but a show seeks to be entertaining and tell a story, and if the Show does that, then viola. Its more entertaining to some to see video game effects come into the anime and be used...it just is. Hell, I enjoy it.

    That is a form of development. How strong you are as a trainer, due to this being about pokemon, does seem like developement and like you acheieved something.


    Though I agree that Perspectives on character developement are mess up ._...I don't think this is what you mean, but I hate it when someone says May had more character development and therefore was a better character because she Changed from not liking pokemon to liking them, and finding out that contests were her thing.. Seriously, I raged at that. First of all, that is very Bland development. I liked it, being a fan pokemon, but to hold that as the "Fact" that May is a better character then Dawn just pissed the crap out of me. Thats STILL very subjective. And its not like Dawn didn't go through crap herself...she just matured. Double appeal round losses should of happened to May, not Dawn. Or at least, It should of been brought up then...Because that would of made more sense to me. But it didn't, and therefore Dawn got that Part of the developement. Does that make dawn a better character? NOPE. >_>

    Sorry, had a ramble there at the end. xD
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    I liked the beginning when they made Team Rocket look threatening and were setting up for an epic confrontation with Team Plasma. But once they scrapped that and regressed back to being an utter snooze fest, I lost interest again.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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