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Thread: Master Hazards of Pokemon's Bane

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    Default Master Hazards of Pokemon's Bane

    Oh Stealth rocks. The ultimate hazard of the metagame (and most hated by casual players too). Joining along would be Spikes and Toxic spikes.

    If you are a user of stealth rocks. Good for you. Same goes to spikes and toxic spikes.

    But what about certain players who are not users of hazard moves? I believe some of us are not fans of those moves because most say they kill their favorites in battle even with planned strategy.

    a. So how do we survive a pokemon battle with the foe's Hazard moves on your field if you have no Rapid Spinner or taunter?

    b. What are the pros and cons playing with a pokemon team not carrying hazard moves? Does that mean a team without hazard moves automatically lose to a team who benefits hazard moves?

    c What are the general negative comments about stealth rocks by the fans of any level?
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    Stealth Rock has often been contested as over-centralizing or even broken. While it's probably the best move in the metagame just for its general utility and ability to keep powerful Pokemon like Dragonite and Volcarona in check, there's also several misconceptions surrounding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jireh the provider View Post
    a. So how do we survive a pokemon battle with the foe's Hazard moves on your field if you have no Rapid Spinner or taunter?
    Honestly, the best way is to...well, add a spinner or Taunter. There are several good spinners, two great Magic Bounce users, and plenty of Pokemon that can utilize Taunt available in OU. If you're having trouble with entry hazards, then there's very little excuse not to run any one of these options to help protect against them.

    b. What are the pros and cons playing with a pokemon team not carrying hazard moves?
    The main con of not using entry hazards is that you're giving up the extra passive damage that they offer. In an offensive metagame like this one, momentum and the ability to switch in and out safely is a very important part of any battle. If your opponent is wearing down your team with Stealth Rock and possibly Spikes on the switches and you have none of your own, then you're giving your opponent an inherent advantage.

    The pros....you're being nice?

    Does that mean a team without hazard moves automatically lose to a team who benefits hazard moves?
    Certainly not. Many teams can be successful without any entry hazards at all. For example, HO teams often having nothing more than Dual Screens for support (although some might simply run Stealth Rock), and the rest of their damage is dealt by the raw force of their sweepers. Teams that don't run entry hazards might be at a disadvantage, but there are far more factors that have to be taken into account besides just entry hazards.

    c What are the general negative comments about stealth rocks by the fans of any level?
    STELTHH ROKS HERTZZ MUH AWSUUM CHARRIZURDZ!!1!11!!

    Stuff like that. I think that the main misconception regarding Stealth Rock is that it singlehandedly destroys the viability of many Pokemon, such as Charizard. However, there are almost always other factors that have a part in that. Charizard for one has terrible defensive typing and frail defenses, and it becomes a very blah Pokemon when removed from Sun. While it has a niche, it's not enough to justify using it over other special Fire types like Heatran and Volcarona most of the time. There are also plenty of very good and common Pokemon in OU like Dragonite and Volcarona that are badly crippled by Stealth Rock, yet they have other assets that make them viable Pokemon despite the existence of Stealth Rock.

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    I remember making a new new called Stealth Icicle and was said to change the metagame if GF made it. I wouldn't really mind this hazard to exist because it chips stuff like Dragonite, Haxorus, Amoonguss and others health badly.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jireh the provider View Post
    Oh Stealth rocks. The ultimate hazard of the metagame (and most hated by casual players too). Joining along would be Spikes and Toxic spikes.

    If you are a user of stealth rocks. Good for you. Same goes to spikes and toxic spikes.

    But what about certain players who are not users of hazard moves? I believe some of us are not fans of those moves because most say they kill their favorites in battle even with planned strategy.

    a. So how do we survive a pokemon battle with the foe's Hazard moves on your field if you have no Rapid Spinner or taunter?

    b. What are the pros and cons playing with a pokemon team not carrying hazard moves? Does that mean a team without hazard moves automatically lose to a team who benefits hazard moves?

    c What are the general negative comments about stealth rocks by the fans of any level?
    If you are shoehorning your "favorites" into a competitive team where they are chosen because of them being a "favorite" rather than any actual role or useful strategy they bring to the table, then the burden is on you to make them viable in a competitive environment. It isn't up to your opponents to go easy on you just because you chose to use sub-par Pokemon.
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    As a trainer whose primary tier is Übers, my favorite method to counter entry hazards is neither Rapid Spin nor Taunt, but Magic Bounce in combination with offensive pressure, since such is necessary in order to take out the users of entry hazards before they KO the Magic Bounce Pokémon and then set up the hazards anyway, as no Magic Bounce Pokémon can repeatedly switch in and block the entry hazards of every user indefinitely. For that reason, I greatly prefer Espeon over Xatu due to its much greater offensive presence, allowing it to do things like weakening Groudon with Grass Knot and Dialga with Hidden Power [Fighting], enabling them to be finished off by a teammate before they can set up entry hazards after Espeon has fainted. I find that Rapid Spin and Taunt are both extremely unreliable in the Übers tier, as the former is way too easily blocked by certain Pokémon that no user of Rapid Spin can easily defeat, while in the case of the latter, the opponent's entry hazard user may not be out at exactly the same time as when the Pokémon with Taunt is out. While Espeon isn't a guaranteed method to counter entry hazards, especially with the existence of Mold Breaker Excadrill, I do really enjoy the great and vast utility that Magic Bounce in general provides, such as completely and utterly stone-walling the incredibly deadly Roost-Substitute-Toxic-Whirlwind Lugia (or even crippling it by switching into a predicted Toxic), ruining the Shell Smash + Baton Pass strategy by switching into Shell Smash and then using Yawn as they Baton Pass to Dialga (or even better, reflecting their Smeargle's Spore if they happen to use it as Espeon switches in), reflecting Dark Voids, and things like that.

    The cons of using entry hazards are as jesusfreak94 mentioned, but one pro that I have personally encountered when team building is simply the fact that not using a hazard move gives the team one more moveslot to use another move. Most of the time, not using at least Stealth Rock for the benefit of allowing one Pokémon in the team to use another move isn't worth it, but for the record, I actually have built several teams without a single hazard move, exactly because I couldn't fit it anywhere, as I considered every single move known by every Pokémon in my team capable of learning a hazard move to be completely irreplaceable. I had a Magic Bounce Pokémon in every single one of such teams though, which somewhat served as a substitute for the hazard moves themselves, but I don't use any of those teams anymore as I found that they weren't successful (not because of their lack of entry hazards though).

    Like many people, I do believe that Stealth Rock's damage output is way too high, especially on Pokémon with a 4x weakness to Rock. However, my main concern is not just limited to Stealth Rock itself, but all entry hazards in general, or more specifically, the fact that all three types of entry hazards can be stacked together, combined with the ease with which Rapid Spin can be blocked (something that doesn't even make sense to my eyes, because when a Pokémon uses Rapid Spin on a Ghost-type Pokémon, it technically isn't hitting any target besides the entry hazards themselves, so the spinning should actually be more effective than if it hits a target, something which would impede the spinning itself), as well as the ease with which entry hazards can be abused with pseudo-Hazing moves. Against most teams, getting down Stealth Rock and one to two layers of Spikes is no difficult task, and that is oftentimes more than enough to cripple just about any team regardless of how Stealth Rock-resistant its members may be, especially when such hazards are combined with the use of extremely bulky pseudo-Hazers. In addition to a nerf to Stealth Rock (possibly by halving its damage output, or putting a time limit to it), I personally also strongly believe that it should not be possible for a trainer to have more than one type of entry hazard on their field at once (so if one attempts to use Spikes or Toxic Spikes while the opponent already has Stealth Rock on their field, such moves should fail), as I think their combined damage output, even on the most Stealth Rock-resistant of Pokémon, is way too great.
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    And honestly, getting three layers of spikes is very difficult, unless you're using stall, and no thanks to the power creep, stall is very hard to pull off these days.

    When using offensive teams, the only hazard my foe usually has the time to set up is Stealth Rock.
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    It's been a long time since I participated in the OU metagame, so I can't really comment on that in respect to that tier.

    However, rain is the most common weather in Übers, and using Ferrothorn to get three layers of Spikes down against a rain team is incredibly simple, as even the most offensive of such teams tend to lack the ability to take down Ferrothorn quickly, especially when factoring in its ability to stall and regain health with Leech Seed and Protect. In fact, discounting Magic Bounce, the only type of team against which I find to be consistently difficult to set up three layers of Spikes with Ferrothorn is Sun, which has an entirely different weakness anyway, entry hazard-wise.
    This is a battle. Of course it's gonna be unfair. That which is called 'battle' was a monster originally born of unfairness and intolerance. I can't stand that guy. I can beat that guy. I can't forgive that guy. We make enemies for all sorts of reasons, and from the moment you make an enemy, until one of you draws his last breath - you're in a battle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokéMaster Forever View Post
    It's been a long time since I participated in the OU metagame, so I can't really comment on that in respect to that tier.

    However, rain is the most common weather in Übers, and using Ferrothorn to get three layers of Spikes down against a rain team is incredibly simple, as even the most offensive of such teams tend to lack the ability to take down Ferrothorn quickly, especially when factoring in its ability to stall and regain health with Leech Seed and Protect. In fact, discounting Magic Bounce, the only type of team against which I find to be consistently difficult to set up three layers of Spikes with Ferrothorn is Sun, which has an entirely different weakness anyway, entry hazard-wise.
    I was trying to reply to the thread in general, not to you in specific, but honestly, I'll just have to take your word for this.

    Though while you say it's difficult to deal with, I'm curious. Do you actually find it overpowered there, or just annoying?
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    If by "it" you mean Ferrothorn, then I don't think that it's overpowered, although it's certainly annoying. If by "it" you mean Spikes, then yes, I do think that it is too powerful and needs a nerf, if only in respect to the fact that I think it shouldn't be possible to stack it on top of both Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread (as not only would this result in it being impossible for a Pokémon to take damage from both Spikes and Stealth Rock just by switching in, but it would also immensely increase the opportunity cost of using each entry hazard - people would have to choose between being able to damage all Pokémon barring those with Magic Guard, being able to deal 25% damage to any grounded Pokémon otherwise irrespective of type, or poisoning some Pokémon that switch in, as opposed to being able to freely put down all three types of hazards).
    This is a battle. Of course it's gonna be unfair. That which is called 'battle' was a monster originally born of unfairness and intolerance. I can't stand that guy. I can beat that guy. I can't forgive that guy. We make enemies for all sorts of reasons, and from the moment you make an enemy, until one of you draws his last breath - you're in a battle.

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    Oh...I don't know much about Ubers, so I can't really carry on that discussion.
    a. So how do we survive a pokemon battle with the foe's Hazard moves on your field if you have no Rapid Spinner or taunter?
    Stealth Rocks is a pain, but really, it's not dangerous until your opponent starts to rack up spikes. However, let's look at the most popular spikes users.

    Cloyster: Extremely rare to see it using this over Shell Smash.
    Deoxys-D: Usually first in the team. Grab something that can 2HKO it, and you probably won't get anything more than stealth rocks.
    Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress: All weak to fire, and weaker in special defense(besides the first). Just bring a fire blaster or flame thrower user.

    So, you can deal with hazards just by any random check for Deoxys-D and a fire move.
    Does that mean a team without hazard moves automatically lose to a team who benefits hazard moves?
    If this were the case, OU would be mostly stall, not offense. I'm working on a stall team right now, and even though it carries a stable defense core, a rapid spinner, a taunt user, a spin blocker, a stealth rocker, and a spikes user, I still struggle against teams who bring nothing more then stealth rock.
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    When I was a kid, I thought Stealth Rock was a terrible move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Comedy View Post
    When I was a kid, I thought Stealth Rock was a terrible move.
    It is, if you don't play competitively.

    The difference is that in competitive battles, you'll often be swapping out, especially with the popular Volt Turn teams running around. The damage really starts to stack then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    If you are shoehorning your "favorites" into a competitive team where they are chosen because of them being a "favorite" rather than any actual role or useful strategy they bring to the table, then the burden is on you to make them viable in a competitive environment. It isn't up to your opponents to go easy on you just because you chose to use sub-par Pokemon.
    Look sir, I do not not shoehorn about my chosen teams, even if they got bad synergy. I know how to give a single pokemon along with the team a role to play in my existing battle, even if my entire team is based on my favorites. I know how to differentiate my in game Cinccino, Flygon, Serperior, and Jirachi to my competitive Staraptor, Walrein, Luxray, and Manaphy.

    I'm just curious as to how I could win a fight against a hazard user. I'm an anti-hazard person and an all out slaughter kind of team builder. My favorites are based on versatility like Jirachi (my personal favorite)

    And yes, most of my favorites I play for fun, NOT GREEDY COMPETITIVE, are offensive (Only my Walrein is the tank while my Camerupt is just the stealth fodder.).

    But to all of you, can you guys name me EVERY USER OF HAZARD MOVE USERS IN EVERY TIER? I just want a prep up if I'm gonna have some play time at the showdown after I'm done with my semestral finals next week
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    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/spikes
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/toxic_spikes
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/stealth_rock

    All the pokemon who know these moves and their tiers. I can't tell you how popular they'll be, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachmac View Post
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/spikes
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/toxic_spikes
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/stealth_rock

    All the pokemon who know these moves and their tiers. I can't tell you how popular they'll be, though.
    Oh I can tell you. Mr Rose Bush the Ferrothorn is the ULTIMATE Hazard ***** I'll have to overcome (Gosh I hated this guy with a passion, since I only like its concept. To be the rosh bush where I can Impale human flest at it.)!!! Deoxys - D and Skarmory, not too worrisome in all honesty, yet still a botherous alien/jet bird. Foretress, Phah, like I'm Worried about him? Mamoswine, Not too worrisome.

    Groudon though, is a guy I hated to fight like Kyogre as well.
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    The OP's reply is just weird...

    Anyways,

    Stealth Rock hinder usage in one sense, but it isn't usually enough to bring a pokemon down by one tier. Think of most birds (I'll take Dodrio) for example. Weakness to Stealth Rock is just small, a small drawback when there's other things that Dodrio lacks. One includes the sheer impossibility of trying to break through rock and steel type, as well as a bad defense, allowing revenge-kills to happen easily. That's the real reason why Dodrio isn't used much outside NU, not so much of the Stealth Rock (but like other birds) but more of the inability to break rock and steel and bad defense.

    Volcarona and Dragonite are common Pokemon in OU, yet they're both crippled by rocks. So in my opinion, low usage for some pokemon isn't only because of Stealth Rock/Hazard Vulnerability, but more of a combination of those and poor stats.

    Beside, if SR mattered so much, shouldn't Ho-ho be in OU then xD?

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    I don't have stealth rocks on my singles team however I do have Espeon (DW) whenever the send out a forretress or any pokemon I think is going to use a crippling move or set up hazards I switch out and it all gets bounced back some people ,sometimes, keep using hazards even though Espeon is out so most of the time I can get all three layers of spikes and a stealth rock up. Even If they got say spikes up I would try to finish the battle with Latias and Rotom so they don't bother me too much. As Lanturn said above if they were so much of a problem wouldn't Ho-oh be OU. This can also be said for other pokemon.
    That's just what I think though

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokéMaster Forever View Post
    As a trainer whose primary tier is Übers, my favorite method to counter entry hazards is neither Rapid Spin nor Taunt, but Magic Bounce in combination with offensive pressure, since such is necessary in order to take out the users of entry hazards before they KO the Magic Bounce Pokémon and then set up the hazards anyway, as no Magic Bounce Pokémon can repeatedly switch in and block the entry hazards of every user indefinitely. For that reason, I greatly prefer Espeon over Xatu due to its much greater offensive presence, allowing it to do things like weakening Groudon with Grass Knot and Dialga with Hidden Power [Fighting], enabling them to be finished off by a teammate before they can set up entry hazards after Espeon has fainted. I find that Rapid Spin and Taunt are both extremely unreliable in the Übers tier, as the former is way too easily blocked by certain Pokémon that no user of Rapid Spin can easily defeat, while in the case of the latter, the opponent's entry hazard user may not be out at exactly the same time as when the Pokémon with Taunt is out. While Espeon isn't a guaranteed method to counter entry hazards, especially with the existence of Mold Breaker Excadrill, I do really enjoy the great and vast utility that Magic Bounce in general provides, such as completely and utterly stone-walling the incredibly deadly Roost-Substitute-Toxic-Whirlwind Lugia (or even crippling it by switching into a predicted Toxic), ruining the Shell Smash + Baton Pass strategy by switching into Shell Smash and then using Yawn as they Baton Pass to Dialga (or even better, reflecting their Smeargle's Spore if they happen to use it as Espeon switches in), reflecting Dark Voids, and things like that.

    The cons of using entry hazards are as jesusfreak94 mentioned, but one pro that I have personally encountered when team building is simply the fact that not using a hazard move gives the team one more moveslot to use another move. Most of the time, not using at least Stealth Rock for the benefit of allowing one Pokémon in the team to use another move isn't worth it, but for the record, I actually have built several teams without a single hazard move, exactly because I couldn't fit it anywhere, as I considered every single move known by every Pokémon in my team capable of learning a hazard move to be completely irreplaceable. I had a Magic Bounce Pokémon in every single one of such teams though, which somewhat served as a substitute for the hazard moves themselves, but I don't use any of those teams anymore as I found that they weren't successful (not because of their lack of entry hazards though).

    Like many people, I do believe that Stealth Rock's damage output is way too high, especially on Pokémon with a 4x weakness to Rock. However, my main concern is not just limited to Stealth Rock itself, but all entry hazards in general, or more specifically, the fact that all three types of entry hazards can be stacked together, combined with the ease with which Rapid Spin can be blocked (something that doesn't even make sense to my eyes, because when a Pokémon uses Rapid Spin on a Ghost-type Pokémon, it technically isn't hitting any target besides the entry hazards themselves, so the spinning should actually be more effective than if it hits a target, something which would impede the spinning itself), as well as the ease with which entry hazards can be abused with pseudo-Hazing moves. Against most teams, getting down Stealth Rock and one to two layers of Spikes is no difficult task, and that is oftentimes more than enough to cripple just about any team regardless of how Stealth Rock-resistant its members may be, especially when such hazards are combined with the use of extremely bulky pseudo-Hazers. In addition to a nerf to Stealth Rock (possibly by halving its damage output, or putting a time limit to it), I personally also strongly believe that it should not be possible for a trainer to have more than one type of entry hazard on their field at once (so if one attempts to use Spikes or Toxic Spikes while the opponent already has Stealth Rock on their field, such moves should fail), as I think their combined damage output, even on the most Stealth Rock-resistant of Pokémon, is way too great.
    This is why I feel that hazards are just WAY TOO POWERFUL! Forget all the offensive / stall team champions. hazards are the ultimate enemy.

    Something tells me that Stealth rocks SERIOUSLY NEEDS TO BE ADJUSTED AGAIN. In every switch and pokemon hit, the percentage of damage will be reduced. Think of it like this using the number 100 in 5 turns With stealth rock and roar.

    For our battle example, let us go with Prankster Riolu VS. Dragonite, Volcarona, Infernape, Tornadus therian, and Shaymin Land forme (sorry, no sky forme)

    After setting stealth rocks, on the first turn riolu fights.

    a. First roar. Blows out Dragonite, then goes to Volcarona. We know the obvious 50% HP loss. That first entry, SR is at maximum power of the 100. Add minus 20, it has become 80 power over 100 (80/100)

    b. Second roar. Blows out Volcarona, then goes to Dragonite. Instead of the expected 25% loss, it only has 20% HP loss. That second entry, SR only has 80% power of the 100 maximum. Add another minus 20, it has become 60 power over 100 (60/100)

    c. Third roar. Blows out Dragonite, then goes to Tornadus therian. Like last turn, instead of the expected 25% loss, it only has 15% HP loss. That third entry, SR only has 60% power of the 100 maximum. Add another minus 20, it has become 40 power over 100 (40/100)

    Ten I bet yo know the next procedures ahead. But ... once a fifth pokemon enters the field being afflicted by SR, THEN stealth rocks completely Disappears.

    I can agree with you that sometimes, it is better that only one type of Hazard Rules can balance the metagame. Weather is okay for me still
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