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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    You are obviously incorrect, vastly. Jrpg and Wrpg are barely even the same genre.

    Edit: Watching those videos that grim heaper just posted will greatly change your perspective on this.
    Your seriously going to tell me that "JRPG of the Year" Xenoblade has more in common with Final Fantasy 7 than it does Neverwinter Knights? Or that Secret of Mana and Final Fantasy Tactics are the same style of RPG?

    Country of orgin has little to do with genre.

    And extra credits isn't exactly an expert on JRPG's. For one Western RPG's predate JRPG's by a good few years at least. Wizardy was released in Japan before Dragonquest was made, and the game lifted some elements from it. RPG development didn't diverge until after that point when the Dragonquest template became popular in Japan, and later real time combat system became big in the U.S. Even then there is no uniform style for RPG development in either hemisphere. The rest of the video is horseshit that has nothing to with how the rest of the world defines game genres. Grand Theft Auto and Elder Scroll may both scratch the explore a big world itech, but next to no one thinks they are the same genre.
    Last edited by Zazie; 13th December 2012 at 7:50 PM.

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  2. #202
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    In the WRPG vs JRPG debate, it really depends on the game itself, and some other factors.

    Take Dragon Quest. Looks exactly like a "Western" RPG. Same with early FF games. Also the original Tales of Phantasia. Today, most JRPGs are easy to spot presentation wise as most are done with an anime/moe/loli/whatever look. They usually have more focus on story as opposed to gameplay. Also more focus on leveling up and skills instead of reflexes. Of course, most of this is decided by genre. But honestly, as an advid player of JRPGs, there is something more about them than the "country of origin". Playing a similar game in the same genre still feels vastly different, as opposed to playing Touhou and some other bullet hell game from the west.

    That's how it is for me at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charizard Champion#06 View Post
    Dude. Dark Souls II and MGSV just got announced. Revengeance, Dead Space 3 and Anarchy Reigns are just around the corner.

    Oh wait, that's just what I'm hyped about.
    The only title I'm remotely excited about is a localization of PMD Magnagate, other than that, I'm waiting for more Nintendo platformers to be announced. We haven't had a good one in a year or two.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    The only title I'm remotely excited about is a localization of PMD Magnagate, other than that, I'm waiting for more Nintendo platformers to be announced. We haven't had a good one in a year or two.
    What about that new Mario platformer? Or that other new Mario platformer? Don't you like Mario games? Nintendo certainly thinks you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazie View Post
    Your seriously going to tell me that "JRPG of the Year" Xenoblade has more in common with Final Fantasy 7 than it does Neverwinter Knights? Or that Secret of Mana and Final Fantasy Tactics are the same style of RPG?

    Country of orgin has little to do with genre.

    And extra credits isn't exactly an expert on JRPG's. For one Western RPG's predate JRPG's by a good few years at least. Wizardy was released in Japan before Dragonquest was made, and the game lifted some elements from it. RPG development didn't diverge until after that point when the Dragonquest template became popular in Japan, and later real time combat system became big in the U.S. Even then there is no uniform style for RPG development in either hemisphere. The rest of the video is horseshit that has nothing to with how the rest of the world defines game genres. Grand Theft Auto and Elder Scroll may both scratch the explore a big world itech, but next to no one thinks they are the same genre.
    Extra credit apparently knows more about the topic then you do lol . Also I didn't say anything about the country of origin having anything to do with it and neither did the videos, they actually spoke against that idea. And yes actually cuz Neverwinter Knights very little in common with any rpg on your list. The only game it come even close to simularity is baldurs gate shadows of amn which also uses the round based d20 battle system.

    There really is no debate in this topic lol. genre =/= subgenre so all of your arguments are pretty much invalid.

    I'll make a comparison for you since you can't seem to grasp this.

    Wrpgs:
    Neverwinter Nights
    Skyrim
    Fallout
    Mass Effect
    Diablo

    All of these games I just mentioned above have little in common in core gamplay, however they are all wrpgs because of one thing they all have in common. You are playing as the hero of the story, through the eyes of the hero.

    Jrpgs:
    Tales of Series
    Final Fantasy 1-13
    Final Fantasy Spinoff games
    Suikoden Series
    Mana Series

    As said above the games in this list also have little in common and often fall under different subgenres. They are all Jrpgs due to them all being depidicted in a narrative perspective when you arent actually playing as a character but rather controlling what he/she does. Much more like a story book.

    Jrpg =/= Wrpg mostly due to how the game is played and presentation. There are in fact wrpgs (Dark Souls) made in Japan and jrpgs made in the West (Legend of Dragoon). The terms Jrpg and Wrpg shouldn't even exist that because the area of origin has little to do with it. But I can assure you they are very different when looked at from an intelligent point of view.
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charizard Champion#06 View Post
    What about that new Mario platformer? Or that other new Mario platformer? Don't you like Mario games? Nintendo certainly thinks you do.
    Too rehashtastic. Lemme know when Nintendo decides to make a Mario game that's remotely innovative.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  7. #207
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    two words lol. PAPER and MARIO. lol

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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    two words lol. PAPER and MARIO. lol
    A Mario platformer that's innovative.

    Paper Mario is fairly innovative, but I don't think I'd like it because of the reliance on stickers for combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    Extra credit apparently knows more about the topic then you do lol . Also I didn't say anything about the country of origin having anything to do with it and neither did the videos, they actually spoke against that idea. And yes actually cuz Neverwinter Knights very little in common with any rpg on your list. The only game it come even close to simularity is baldurs gate shadows of amn which also uses the round based d20 battle system.

    There really is no debate in this topic lol. genre =/= subgenre so all of your arguments are pretty much invalid.

    I'll make a comparison for you since you can't seem to grasp this.

    Wrpgs:
    Neverwinter Nights
    Skyrim
    Fallout
    Mass Effect
    Diablo

    All of these games I just mentioned above have little in common in core gamplay, however they are all wrpgs because of one thing they all have in common. You are playing as the hero of the story, through the eyes of the hero.

    Jrpgs:
    Tales of Series
    Final Fantasy 1-13
    Final Fantasy Spinoff games
    Suikoden Series
    Mana Series

    As said above the games in this list also have little in common and often fall under different subgenres. They are all Jrpgs due to them all being depidicted in a narrative perspective when you arent actually playing as a character but rather controlling what he/she does. Much more like a story book.

    Jrpg =/= Wrpg mostly due to how the game is played and presentation. There are in fact wrpgs (Dark Souls) made in Japan and jrpgs made in the West (Legend of Dragoon). The terms Jrpg and Wrpg shouldn't even exist that because the area of origin has little to do with it. But I can assure you they are very different when looked at from an intelligent point of view.
    The Nitpicks

    A: The math behind Neverwinter Nights and Xenoblade has nothing to do with gameplay style. My point was that both game involve real time combat, and sidequests. As opposed to Final Fantasy 7 which does not.
    B: Neverwinter Night and Baldur's Gate do not use the same combat math (or as you would say "battle system") NWN uses the 3rd edition DD rules, Baldur's Gate uses 2nd edition and the two are not compatible with each other.
    C: Diablo I and II doesn't have you playing the story through the eyes of the hero. It has you playing a cookie cutter character merely meant to provide a visual avatar, much like pokemon does. The games have as little in common with Mass Effect or Skyrim as they do Final Fantasy.
    D: In some Shin Megami Tensei games like Persona 3/4 you are the hero and act as the hero of the story. Extra Credit's even classifies as a JRPG (albeit one with western friendly elements)
    E: In Saint's Row 3 you play as the hero of the as the hero. (It's even used as an example in the Extra Credits video) Is saint's row 3 a WRPG? (most people would say no) This is probably important too.

    The Main Point

    More importantly game genre is primarily defined by gameplay not narrative conceits or reason for playing. A point and click adventure game is a point and click adeventure game, regardless of whether it's set in the wild west, the future or is played for story, atmosphere, mental challenge or educational value.this is the relevant part of my point

    I agree that country of orgin is irrelevant. I just disagree that jrpg vs. wrpg is the most useful method of dividing game types. It downplays the wide variety of gameplay styles in the two categories and the amount of concept and mechanic bleed that happens between the two categories.
    Last edited by Zazie; 13th December 2012 at 11:30 PM.

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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazie View Post
    The Nitpicks

    A: The math behind Neverwinter Nights and Xenoblade has nothing to do with gameplay style. My point was that both game involve real time combat, and sidequests. As opposed to Final Fantasy 7 which does not.
    B: Neverwinter Night and Baldur's Gate do not use the same combat math (or as you would say "battle system") NWN uses the 3rd edition DD rules, Baldur's Gate uses 2nd edition and the two are not compatible with each other.
    C: Diablo I and II doesn't have you playing the story through the eyes of the hero. It has you playing a cookie cutter character merely meant to provide a visual avatar, much like pokemon does. The games have as little in common with Mass Effect or Skyrim as they do Final Fantasy.
    D: In some Shin Megami Tensei games like Persona 3/4 you are the hero and act as the hero of the story. Extra Credit's even classifies as a JRPG (albeit one with western friendly elements)
    E: In Saint's Row 3 you play as the hero of the as the hero. (It's even used as an example in the Extra Credits video) Is saint's row 3 a WRPG? (most people would say no) This is probably important too.

    The Main Point

    More importantly game genre is primarily defined by gameplay not narrative conceits or reason for playing. A point and click adventure game is a point and click adeventure game, regardless of whether it's set in the wild west, the future or is played for story, atmosphere, mental challenge or educational value.this is the relevant part of my point

    I agree that country of orgin is irrelevant. I just disagree that jrpg vs. wrpg is the most useful method of diving game types. It downplays the wide variety of gameplay styles in the two categories and the amount of concept and mechanic bleed that happens between the two categories.
    Basically everthing you said there is irrelevant and meaningless. I'll skip to the point you tried to make.

    I think you completely missed the point. Like completely. Rpg has a huge umbella of subgenres while point and click adventure games have none. You are basically saying that megaman and call of duty are the same genre because they are both shooters.

    Jrpg =/= Wrpg
    Last edited by LilPrinnyDood; 13th December 2012 at 11:04 PM.

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  11. #211
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    So you can indeed make a wRPG if you live in Japan and vice-versa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Too rehashtastic. Lemme know when Nintendo decides to make a Mario game that's remotely innovative.
    How do you mean? I see people complain about lack of innovation all the time, but they never seem to be able to say just what they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibdas View Post
    So you can indeed make a wRPG if you live in Japan and vice-versa?


    How do you mean? I see people complain about lack of innovation all the time, but they never seem to be able to say just what they want.
    That is correct sir, wrpg and jrpg are used out of ignorance these days and dont actually have anything to do with where they are made. (Why do I get the feeling that question wasn't even meant to be answered lol)

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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    That is correct sir, wrpg and jrpg are used out of ignorance these days and dont actually have anything to do with where they are made. (Why do I get the feeling that question wasn't even meant to be answered lol)
    It was completely serious. I've never really understood until today, so that helps. Same goes to all who helped clarify, that was helpful [on serebii?! what?!].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibdas View Post
    It was completely serious. I've never really understood until today, so that helps. Same goes to all who helped clarify, that was helpful [on serebii?! what?!].
    Well I am very glad to have been helpful I suppose.

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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    two words lol. PAPER and MARIO. lol
    I take it you've never played Super Mario RPG, at the very least?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    I take it you've never played Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, at the very least?
    And what gives you that Idea? I actually own it for SNES lol. What are you getting anyway? My point was Paper Mario is a lot more intuitive then he was giving it credit for. And there is one coming out soon. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    <quote>
    Anal-retentive much? There is only one title, to my knowledge, that includes the phrase Super Mario RPG.

    What are you getting anyway? My point was Paper Mario is a lot more intuitive then he was giving it credit for.
    Just so we're clear: the term was innovative. The Paper Mario subseries's basic everything is based off of Super Mario RPG, except the 2D graphics. The various gimmicks are drawn out of other games, too. The series assembles parts in an interesting way, but barely in any way that's never been done before, even in the Mario series.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibdas View Post
    How do you mean? I see people complain about lack of innovation all the time, but they never seem to be able to say just what they want.
    Pretty much every game in the NSMB series uses the same level tropes, similar powerups, and the same bosses. It's almost like you're playing the same game 4 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Too rehashtastic. Lemme know when Nintendo decides to make a Mario game that's remotely innovative.
    *coughCODCough*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    Anal-retentive much? There is only one title, to my knowledge, that includes the phrase Super Mario RPG.



    Just so we're clear: the term was innovative. The Paper Mario subseries's basic everything is based off of Super Mario RPG, except the 2D graphics. The various gimmicks are drawn out of other games, too. The series assembles parts in an interesting way, but barely in any way that's never been done before, even in the Mario series.
    Yes because turning into a paper airplane to get from one section to the other has been done in any other franchise, and thats only one of those "gimmicks" you speak of. Also the only system in paper mario that was used in super mario rpg (lol), is the timed hits and shared flower points otherwise nothing else was used bar the fact that its an rpg. I wonder if you ever even played a paper mario game lol
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    Yes because turning into a paper airplane to get from one section to the other
    ugh they totally stole that from call of duty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibdas View Post
    ugh they totally stole that from call of duty
    LOL that just created the most beautiful mental image ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    Yes because turning into a paper airplane to get from one section to the other has been done in any other franchise, and thats only one of those "gimmicks" you speak of. Also the only system in paper mario that was used in super mario rpg (lol), is the timed hits and shared flower points otherwise nothing else was used bar the fact that its an rpg. I wonder if you ever even played a paper mario game lol
    You're completely missing what I'm referring to as coming from Super Mario RPG -- that being the genre blend. Also, I think you're really over-reaching in terms of what can be officially called a gimmick. This is a matter of gameplay ahead of anything else. It sounds like you're asserting that something that is the equivalent to recycled-in-space is innovative as a result of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    You're completely missing what I'm referring to as coming from Super Mario RPG -- that being the genre blend. Also, I think you're really over-reaching in terms of what can be officially called a gimmick. This is a matter of gameplay ahead of anything else. It sounds like you're asserting that something that is the equivalent to recycled-in-space is innovative as a result of that.
    In saying that you are completely missing the reason why I didn't say Super Mario RPG and instead of Paper Mario in the first place. Paper Mario is alot more innovative with its game play and puzzle solving then Super Mario RPG.

    EDIT: I am not the one calling the gameplay mechanics a gimmick sir I couldn't think of what else you could be talking about, so I assumed you were referring to that.
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  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKojondo View Post
    In saying that you are completely missing the reason why I didn't say Super Mario RPG and instead of Paper Mario in the first place. Paper Mario is alot more innovative with its game play and puzzle solving then Super Mario RPG.
    You're going to have to back that up. Very specifically.
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