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Thread: Pirating of Music and other Digital Media

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    Default Pirating of Music and other Digital Media

    You know it's kind of funny. I don't think I've ever seen this debate here on SPPF. I remember last year during that scare when SOPA scare, but that was mainly a debate on what can be posted on the internet in general, and less about actual pirating.

    Basically, I want to know you stance on pirating. I got to thinking about this the past few weeks as I had to write a persuasive speech about it in my second-level college speech course.

    First here are some definition:
    Verb 1. pirate - copy illegally; of published material

    Noun 2. a person who does something without legal right, eg publishes someone else's work as his own or broadcasts without a licence

    (So as to avoid plagiarizing myself I will go ahead and cite Dictionary.com for those definitions )

    I want to know how you feel about pirating music or anime or anything else online? Is it wrong? Is it right?

    Here is a chart to get the thread started, and through these you will see I am firmly against pirating. It harms the music industry as a whole, and actually takes money out of the national economy.

    I have more charts that I will post in subsequent posts, however I cannot post more than one image per thread.

    57840-chart1.jpg

    Im addition a study done by the Institute for Policy Inovation found that as a result of pirating music (other types of media were discounted from this study) $12.5 billion is lost by the ECONOMY as a whole annually, as well as a loss of 700,00 jobs and $2 billion in wages by the music industry every year. Those amount to so pretty significant economic losses, and the ramifications are huge.

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    i dont think that u should but a freind of mine made a good point. "hey i payed to go see this movie in theaters, and i bought the dvd, so when my sister stepped on it, thus breaking it - hey i still payed for the movie, right? why shouldnt i be able to watch it?"

    that was his logic for getting a copy of the hunger games XD
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    Wasn't there a guy who said "We need to figure out the difference between someone who's downloading a movie to share with his friends, and atcual pirates that are making a boat load of cash off of this."

    If so, and this stance is atcually takeable, I agree with it. I personally wouldn't care if SOME people pirated my stuff, it just proves to me that they like it and want tshare. But the amount of stuff being pirated if rediculous sometimes...I wouldn't be too keen on someone stealin' my stuff that much, even if this IS the internet.

    Granted I'm heavily underinformed over all, so if someone wants to correct somethings, fair enough. I have nothing against it. I'd atcually kinda like to know about this stuff. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by ansem the wise View Post
    i dont think that u should but a freind of mine made a good point. "hey i payed to go see this movie in theaters, and i bought the dvd, so when my sister stepped on it, thus breaking it - hey i still payed for the movie, right? why shouldnt i be able to watch it?"

    that was his logic for getting a copy of the hunger games XD
    Well if the law made any sense it would be legal for him to make copies for personal use, like you can do with CD's. Thus circumventing the problem entirely. But the government would rather kiss up to the MPAA rather than take a stand for fair use and consumer rights.

    I generally don't pirate stuff, but neither am I a fan of how IP law works in the US. Corporations being able to own on some other persons idea for a near indefinite period of time is a perversion of the original intent of copyright.

    This book talks quite a bit about piracy and copyright, and is a pretty decent read for more info on the subject. I had to read it for class. (I only read part of it it was long, but the points I read on were mostly decent)
    Last edited by Zazie; 2nd December 2012 at 10:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazie View Post
    Well if the law made any sense it would be legal for him to make copies for personal use, like you can do with CD's. Thus circumventing the problem entirely. But the goernment would rather kiss up to the MPAA rather than take a stand for fair use and consumer rights.

    I generally don't pirate stuff, but neither am I a fan of how IP law works in the US. Corporations being able to own on some other persons idea for a near indefinite period of time is a perversion of the original intent of copyright.

    This book talks quite a bit about piracy and copyright, and is a pretty decent read for more info on the subject. I had to read it for class. (I only read part of it it was long, but the points I read on were mostly decent)
    he didnt copy it, he found a copy online and that was how he justified having it.
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    The way I see it:

    If it's on Youtube, it should be able to be downloaded. Seriously. What's the difference between me listening to music on my phone, and listening to it on my iPod. As long as you're not doing a massive public sharing and is just using it for personal use, I don't see the problem.

    As for anime, American companies don't even localize half of the good shows. They don't make it over here so it doesn't really matter.

    I do think people should pay for games released in their, or even foreign countries if available on the system. Region locking makes that hard though. I'm not buying another system to play a game from a certain region when the system can totally handle both. That's just being stingy.
    Last edited by Jb; 2nd December 2012 at 9:05 PM.

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    I don't understand why corporations don't just release demos for their games. I can understand if the said pirate is downloading hundreds of copies of Pokemon Red and selling them for $50.0 each, but if a person is downloading ONE copy, I don't see a problem with that. Sure, there's the possibility that the pirate could start doing that, but any moral person I know wouldn't do that. If you released demos for each games, there would be less "pirates" and that way, they could track down ACTUAL pirates. Same goes for music and movies.

    Actually, I had this idea, where, the government would put up a site where for every music artist out there, they would release a sample from a couple of songs, and if you liked them, you could donate to the artist and a week later you would get those songs, and you know that they're a good artist. This could also work for games and movies.

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    I'm glad you brought up this topic, this is actually a field of interest of mine. I think the definition of ownership has changed with the availability of digital media.
    If you purchase a video game, a song, a movie, a digital book, and use it on some sort of digital device, you actually do not own that piece of media. Essentially what you have engaged in is a licensing agreement (which is why you have to agree to a long *** "contract" when you purchase something digital) with the company, it is no longer physically yours, the company has allowed you access for a predetermined amount of time. Which is why even though you bought the Hunger Games off of iTunes, you cannot just send your friend a link to download the exact same file you did.

    Growing up if you had a VHS tape, you could only play it on a VCR. But media is transferable now, so what you see companies do is limiting the way you can use this transferable media. It was also a lot harder and more expensive to create copies of media back then, and incredibly cheap to do so nowadays.
    Companies have tried to encode their media with certain limiting factors, i.e. copyright blocks, limiting device compatibility, etc. etc.

    NintendoCoke, you may see no issue with just ONE person downloading something, but that's where the Tragedy of the Commons happens.
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    Pirating? Yarr matey! Shiver me timbers! Haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    The way I see it:

    If it's on Youtube, it should be able to be downloaded. Seriously. What's the difference between me listening to music on my phone, and listening to it on my iPod. As long as you're not doing a massive public sharing and is just using it for personal use, I don't see the problem.
    I agree with you 100%. I listen to music on YouTube all the time. It's fast and free, and has more songs than I do. I kind of do get PO'd when a favorite song video of mine gets taken down. I can't just throw around 99 cents and up to buy a song. I like to spend my money in important things, like food. And Internet. Most of my songs on my iPod are just copied of inherited CDs. I like that because they were free. However, I do not agree with bootlegging Media. If you want the movie, just get it in the damn store. I hate seeing people video taping movies in theaters. It's stupid. Makes me hate going to the movies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    The way I see it:

    If it's on Youtube, it should be able to be downloaded. Seriously. What's the difference between me listening to music on my phone, and listening to it on my iPod. As long as you're not doing a massive public sharing and is just using it for personal use, I don't see the problem.

    The difference is, someone else likely paid for the rights to use said song for entertainment purposes. You did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klizcool View Post
    Pirating? Yarr matey! Shiver me timbers! Haha.






    I agree with you 100%. I listen to music on YouTube all the time. It's fast and free, and has more songs than I do. I kind of do get PO'd when a favorite song video of mine gets taken down. I can't just throw around 99 cents and up to buy a song. I like to spend my money in important things, like food. And Internet. Most of my songs on my iPod are just copied of inherited CDs. I like that because they were free. However, I do not agree with bootlegging Media. If you want the movie, just get it in the damn store. I hate seeing people video taping movies in theaters. It's stupid. Makes me hate going to the movies.

    The contradiction here is amazing...

    Quote Originally Posted by NintendoCoke View Post
    I don't understand why corporations don't just release demos for their games.
    They do, all the time. Mass effect 3, WoW, Diablo 3, Torch Light 2, Batman Ark-am asylum, and Left 4 Dead 2, to name a few.




    As far as I'm concerned, if I purchased some digital works for my own personal use, I can alter it for my own personal use. I believe there was a court case somewhat recently in the states that rules it was within the right of the purchaser to copy their movie collection for purposes of backup and format altering. However, one crosses the line when they copy something and hand it off to someone else so that two people now hold a copy. Additionally, my opinions get a little flaky when it comes to quality. For instance, if I buy a dvd of a movie, having the HD version does not inherently become mine to own, or does it?

    There needs to be some kind of shift, thats for sure. The major studios are working harder than ever to create new and innovated ways to become a pain in the ***, DRM's for instance. They're never going to stop piracy. There are always going to be those who do it just because, and those who do it because they have a false sense of entitlement but for a lot of people, the harder it is to just buy something, the more appealing it is to pirate it. They need to find the happy medium of price and accessibility. Some indies do it right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
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    There is a simple answer to all of this. It is called "piracy" for a reason. Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong. Can't afford the stuff you want? Too bad. Learn to live without it, because if it's for your entertainment, you don't NEED it anyway. Case closed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voicerocker View Post
    There is a simple answer to all of this. It is called "piracy" for a reason. Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong. Can't afford the stuff you want? Too bad. Learn to live without it, because if it's for your entertainment, you don't NEED it anyway. Case closed.
    Circular logic there. I'll break the circle though. Not everything that is illegal can simply considered wrong. If that were the case, then everything not illegal should be considered right. I'd wager you wouldn't be foolish enough to think that too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
    About 97% of these women posing for pornographic pictures are held at gunpoint, and it can be anywhere. The majority of the time is by force.
    Lulz wat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klizcool View Post
    Pirating? Yarr matey! Shiver me timbers! Haha.



    I agree with you 100%. I listen to music on YouTube all the time. It's fast and free, and has more songs than I do. I kind of do get PO'd when a favorite song video of mine gets taken down. I can't just throw around 99 cents and up to buy a song. I like to spend my money in important things, like food. And Internet. Most of my songs on my iPod are just copied of inherited CDs. I like that because they were free. However, I do not agree with bootlegging Media. If you want the movie, just get it in the damn store. I hate seeing people video taping movies in theaters. It's stupid. Makes me hate going to the movies.
    Um, if you can't afford it, then don't buy it. Just because you see it doesn't make it yours. You same statement could be reversed on you. Say I see a picture of your laptop on my computer via facebook, because I see it, it is now in my ownership. So I have the right to just go and take it from you.

    For all of you who try to justify pirating music, think of it like this; if you were a store owner, and someone just walked out with a candy bar without paying for it, would you be ok with that. Just laugh it off because you saw it. Now have that happen 40 billion times (this is only music btw). However, these people are justified because they don't have the money. >.>

    Circular logic there. I'll break the circle though. Not everything that is illegal can simply considered wrong. If that were the case, then everything not illegal should be considered right. I'd wager you wouldn't be foolish enough to think that too.
    Also bad logic. This statement is easily countered for it fails to realize that there are legal things that are considered immoral. Also, it fails to consider that new laws are constantly created. Laws wouldn't be created if everything legal was considered right. ^.^ One can always justify something illegal like murder. If someone pointed a gun at me and was threatening my life, I would take a gun and shoot them. Is it the right thing to do? Despite being in self defense, no. However, between his life and mine, screw the righteous bullcrap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post

    Also bad logic. This statement is easily countered for it fails to realize that there are legal things that are considered immoral. Also, it fails to consider that new laws are constantly created. Laws wouldn't be created if everything legal was considered right. ^.^ One can always justify something illegal like murder. If someone pointed a gun at me and was threatening my life, I would take a gun and shoot them. Is it the right thing to do? Despite being in self defense, no. However, between his life and mine, screw the righteous bullcrap.
    Hate to break it to you, but you failed at reading comprehension. We made the same point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
    About 97% of these women posing for pornographic pictures are held at gunpoint, and it can be anywhere. The majority of the time is by force.
    Lulz wat?

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    Well Idealy I would buy and download the movies,TV shows and music I want to my laptop or Ipad legaly. BUT most of the stuff I like Is not aviable to do this; yet on Youtube and other sites I can watch them and listen to them for free! If the Enterment idustyry was smart and really wants to stop pirating they should be releaseing there media for a small for customers to download and keep on their devices prementaly!

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    I mean, yeah, it's wrong. I can attest to it, I'm a musician. But we can't really do anything about it. As soon as we find a way to protect material, someone's gonna have found a way around it. It's wrong, but it's just how it goes. Me personally, I don't pirate music anymore. I used to, until about 2 or 3 years ago. I might download an album every now and then, but that's because I don't have the cash at the moment. I always buy it once I have the money.
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    I find the whole "if it is illegal that means its wrong" point of view to be frightening. It's terrible logic.

    I used to download off of demonoid but about a year ago I decided to stop completely. Idk I think that it is wrong essentially because it is stealing, but there are many ways that one could sit and reason with themselves and then walk away not feeling guilty or even thinking that what they did was/is wrong. Idk I'm kinda in the middle of all of this since it is actually stealing.
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    Why are people are assuming stuff people pirate is always commercially available. Some stuff isn't for sale, so pirating it doesn't hurt anybody's finances.

    Also to the people saying it's illegal: yes it is copyright infringement and illegal. So is a very large portion of stuff on the internet. (hence the SOPA/PIPA fuss) You may want to use a different leg to stand on with your argument. (like and economic or moral one)

    Piracy concerns aren't always about money, but they are always about ownership of rights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChedWick View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but you failed at reading comprehension. We made the same point.
    Reread. We actually didn't. I critquedyour post after you critiqued the first.
    Reread.

    Zazzel, are you saying that because somethingis done in mass we should ignore it? I don't fully understand the point you are making.

    Cosmiical, that is the point right and wrong are just that. No matter how you justify it, it is still wrong to pirate music. Say it is not avilable in your region, you can always have it ordered. Itunes, other websites and even your local library give you the option to request a foriegn song. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to get rama no melodi.

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    Ok ill just throw this out there.
    what about media that was recorded off Tv or the radio? Obviously they put it out there to be heard/seen without it being paid for. So if I was to record a song off the radio then make copies of it and give it to my friends...what then? I mean they coupsd easily have heard the same song on the radio and then recorded it themselves. But circumstances came about that I was the one who recorded it, but it was made public for all to hear.
    and then we can swap out music with movies/Tv shows that aired on Tv. Is it wrong to copy something that was made public?


    Then you come to a bump, does it matter where the first copy came from as long as it was made public at one point in time?


    Food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    Reread. We actually didn't. I critquedyour post after you critiqued the first.
    Reread.

    Over your head. Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
    About 97% of these women posing for pornographic pictures are held at gunpoint, and it can be anywhere. The majority of the time is by force.
    Lulz wat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChedWick View Post
    Over your head. Try again.
    If you actually read your post states that not everything illegal can just easily be considered wrong.

    I rebuttal and say that it is always considered wrong. Just because you can justify it you yourself doesn't make it right. Do I need to break it down further for you?

    Ansem, that is actually a good thought. That was an argument used by facebook and employers who check facebook accounts. If something has been made public through facebook, they have the right to republish it to third party people in the form of advertisement, etc. It becomes their property when it is used. Where I would say it fails with us is the fact that since it was used on the radio/tv, it is atually the property of that station. Let me reread on that ruling and I'll tell you what I find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    Zazzel, are you saying that because somethingis done in mass we should ignore it? I don't fully understand the point you are making.
    I am saying that IP law is kind of byzantine and isn't always based on morality or economic benefit. (Do you think SPPF using pokemon images without Nintendo's permission is hurting anyone for example) As such it probably isn't the best tool to use in the arguement against piracy. (stating what effects it actually has is a much more sound choice)

    And should people ignore piracy? I don't think there is a proper answer to that question. If someone wants to go reporting piracy they can, but the average person in no way obligated to such a duty. It's legally up to the right's holders to deal with infringements on their IP.

    Quote Originally Posted by ansem the wise View Post
    Ok ill just throw this out there.
    what about media that was recorded off Tv or the radio? Obviously they put it out there to be heard/seen without it being paid for. So if I was to record a song off the radio then make copies of it and give it to my friends...what then? I mean they coupsd easily have heard the same song on the radio and then recorded it themselves. But circumstances came about that I was the one who recorded it, but it was made public for all to hear.
    and then we can swap out music with movies/Tv shows that aired on Tv. Is it wrong to copy something that was made public?
    Whether your or not your friends could make their own recording for free is irrelevant in the eyes of copyright law. One would be infracted for distribution of the content without the right's holder's permission. So where the first copy came from does not matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    Ansem, that is actually a good thought. That was an argument used by facebook and employers who check facebook accounts. If something has been made public through facebook, they have the right to republish it to third party people in the form of advertisement, etc. It becomes their property when it is used. Where I would say it fails with us is the fact that since it was used on the radio/tv, it is atually the property of that station. Let me reread on that ruling and I'll tell you what I find out.
    Stuff on the radio/t.v. belongs to the IP holders, which is not necessarily the station that broadcasts it. Stuff you post on facebook is not your intellectual property as by using the site you are waiving ownership of the content you post.
    Last edited by Zazie; 12th December 2012 at 6:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazie View Post
    Stuff on the radio/t.v. belongs to the IP holders, which is not necessarily the station that broadcasts it. Stuff you post on facebook is not your intellectual property as by using the site you are waiving ownership of the content you post.
    Looked it up, your correct.

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