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Thread: Pirating of Music and other Digital Media

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolsgod View Post
    Look man, I get I was wrong to try justify pirating music. At this point you're just making yourself look dumb and deviating way off topic trying to bash me and ansem. Saying that I can't be logical on on subject and illogical on another is like saying it can't be sunny then rain. No ones perfect
    wasn't bashing ansem

    actually there are many cases where people can be logical on one subject and suck ball on another every presidential debate is an example

    Since you admit you were wrong, I'll stop now
    Yep we should ban baton pass, and weather too. Oh and Trick Room, I'm tired of having to worry about Trick Room all the time. Just ban the move Trick Room, and prankster, it's broken. Ban all status moves on prankster users, they're too cheap. Oh and ban Probopass to it's so cheap. Just ban everything except Magikarp with splash.
    Well, actually Blaziken isn't really Uber because some people whined about how they were getting owned by it. I mean, it doesn't stand a chance in the Uber enviroment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxedLunch View Post

    That is a terrible comparison that people need to stop using. Look at it this way: If I went into a store and used my magical cloning powers (hypothetical, of course :P) to CLONE a CD and then take the clone, the store owner would be left thinking, "Wow, that douche just got out of paying me for my CD by using his epic cloning powers. But I still have the CD, so I can sell it to someone less douchy. A douche like that probably wouldn't have paid me anyway." If, on the other hand, I take the CD itself, I am costing the guy money, because he'll have to replace the CD I stole. Stealing and costing someone money are two different things.
    Basically, they are one in the same. When you steal, you are effectively costing someone money. The difference you are describing is minimal at best. Even though pirating is not "stealing" they both are costing x amount of money. Taking 40 million candy bars or magically copying and ripping 40 million candy bars would still result in loss of x amount of money. It is for this reason that the comparison still stands


    Stuff is not always available legally. Take video games, for example. Several years ago, after Paper Mario was out-of-print for the N64 and hadn't yet been announced for release on the Wii's Virtual Console, I wanted to own it. I had two choices: A) pay a ****-load of money for a second-hand copy, or B) download it online. Neither way would give the original creators of the game any money. In fact, A) would've allowed someone who had no part in making the game to profit off it, as he was selling the game for twice as much as what he paid for it. When Paper Mario came out for the VC, I happily bought it, but that wasn't until several years later. Are you saying I should've just gone without it when it was readily available online and downloading it literally didn't cost Nintendo a penny?
    Actually no. In this case, buying it from the person would have been legal. You are mistaking something here. When it comes to video games, the company makes money off of what they sell to the store. The amount of copies sold from the store and demand makes the store buy more copies from the company. That is how the video games make money. In contrast, musicians directly are paid from the song as a royalty. Royalties are not given to video games. That is the difference. Otherwise, people would not legally be able to resale games.

    Moreover, on your 3ds comment, Nintendo had already made x amount of money after selling it to the stores. However, lack of sales made the price drop in the store. Nintendo can suggest a price, but it will ultimately be left up to the stores that sale them.


    The whole 'If you don't like it, go without it' argument is valid enough, but if it's available online for free, why would you go without it? My basic point is that these multi-million dollar companies make no effort to be fair to and help the simple, poorer folk who enable them to become multi-million dollar in the first place, so why the hell should we help them? That's why those anti-piracy ads have started trying to claim that piracy hurts 'the simple people;' they know we don't give a damn about the rich: because the rich don't give a damn about us.

    Another point I'd like to make is that, recently, I tried to legally stream some eps of Dragon Ball Z Kai on the official site. Know what happened? I got a 'This content isn't available in your country' message. That annoyed me. Why should I give them them time of day when they don't make an effort to stream in my damn country?
    The reason of this is that they are still a company. They just can't make exceptions for people because that leads to more lawsuits. If someone is left out of these "exceptions" the will fill their rights have been violated. This then leads to a whole can of worms that a company doesn't need to experience.

    On the second point, maybe they haven't reached your country yet. Take other tv shows. The Bold and the Beautiful shows current episodes in the U.S and Canada, however, the Netherlands are five years behind. At one time, it will be available in the country legally. That was the point being made.

    In short, if industries want to stop piracy, they need to do these things:

    A) Make all streaming content available in every country they want business from simultaneously. If they don't, people (like me) will get annoyed when they go to their site and find the content unavailable, and will turn to illegal alternatives.
    See directly above.

    B) Stop being greedy and charging so much for their products. If they start making a fair profit, they'll still be well off. Sure, the actors and producers won't have enough money to buy a dozen mansions every year, but they'll have enough to buy one or two mansions a year, which is still far more than a lot of people can do.
    This causes a loss of profit, which causes shareholders to be angry, which causes loss jobs, which causes annoyance, which then causes less games because less money is being brought in,which then causes less countries getting content on time, and that content being shipped out slower, which causes more people to be agitated, which then cause people to pirate things.

    Of course, these things are unlikely ever to happen. So guess what? Piracy ain't gonna stop either, unless the government manages to introduce and pass another nazi-like SOPA bill.
    Piracy would still continue even if that happened. Most people don't realize that piracy actually causes an increase in prices. Even in video games. That is the reason why xbox is moving to where one can only by the video games on the platform.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Basically, they are one in the same. When you steal, you are effectively costing someone money. The difference you are describing is minimal at best. Even though pirating is not "stealing" they both are costing x amount of money. Taking 40 million candy bars or magically copying and ripping 40 million candy bars would still result in loss of x amount of money. It is for this reason that the comparison still stands
    You're assuming that every person who 'steals' (clones) the CD would've bought it. A lot wouldn't have. In fact, if the cloning option hadn't been available, the douche in question might have very well taken the CD itself, which would've been even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Actually no. In this case, buying it from the person would have been legal. You are mistaking something here. When it comes to video games, the company makes money off of what they sell to the store. The amount of copies sold from the store and demand makes the store buy more copies from the company. That is how the video games make money. In contrast, musicians directly are paid from the song as a royalty. Royalties are not given to video games. That is the difference. Otherwise, people would not legally be able to resale games.

    Moreover, on your 3ds comment, Nintendo had already made x amount of money after selling it to the stores. However, lack of sales made the price drop in the store. Nintendo can suggest a price, but it will ultimately be left up to the stores that sale them.
    Actually, yes. I found the game on eBay, not a second-hand video game store. The person selling the game was not affiliated with Nintendo in any way; he was just a greedy douche getting rid of his game. If I'd been stupid enough to pay him the $100 AUD he was asking for for an old N64 game, he would've gotten money, eBay would've gotten some money, and Nintendo would've gotten jack. Or, maybe they would've gotten... a few cents. So, I should've emptied my wallet on an unfair price for something just to give Nintendo a few cents? Right...

    So, what you are saying is that the stores were able to lower the price of the 3DS by $100 and still make a profit? What does that tell you, miles0624? That they were charging far too much, just like industries always do. They're getting greedy, and piracy is making it harder for them to get away with it. This is a good thing, in my opinion. I mean, look at how much Hollywood actors and producers are making. It's ridiculous. I'm not for pirating small, independent movies that need the money, but Hollywood movies? Hell yeah. Not that they're worth it most of the time, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    The reason of this is that they are still a company. They just can't make exceptions for people because that leads to more lawsuits. If someone is left out of these "exceptions" the will fill their rights have been violated. This then leads to a whole can of worms that a company doesn't need to experience.
    So what? That's their problem, not mine. Are you saying that, if it's not available in my country because the creators/distributes of it are too slow, I should just go without it? Ain't gonna happen, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    This causes a loss of profit, which causes shareholders to be angry, which causes loss jobs, which causes annoyance, which then causes less games because less money is being brought in,which then causes less countries getting content on time, and that content being shipped out slower, which causes more people to be agitated, which then cause people to pirate things.
    Shareholders will learn to live with it, just as actors and producers would learn to live with making less money if there was no other choice. See, capitalism means that, if an actor or producer doesn't feel like they're getting paid enough for one movie, they can just find another movie that will pay them more. Same with professional sports players. However, if all industries had to cut salaries, the actors and producers would have no other companies to jump to, and they'd just have to make do with what they were being offered. Sure, they'd whine a bit, but ultimately they'd get used to it.

    Note: I'm not a communist. I know that society has to have low, middle and high in order to thrive. My problem is the gross disproportion of this, which is only getting larger. If piracy helps bridge that gap a little, I'm all for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    On the second point, maybe they haven't reached your country yet. Take other tv shows. The Bold and the Beautiful shows current episodes in the U.S and Canada, however, the Netherlands are five years behind. At one time, it will be available in the country legally. That was the point being made.
    Then I'll just wait the several months/years it'd take for the show to come to my country. ...Oh, wait. No, I won't, because that would be stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Piracy would still continue even if that happened. Most people don't realize that piracy actually causes an increase in prices. Even in video games. That is the reason why xbox is moving to where one can only by the video games on the platform.
    Of course it would. Piracy will never stop completely. However, it would go down. Digital sharing is the way of the future anyway. DVDs and physical copies of video games are becoming obsolete. This will cut distribution prices and labor at video game shops. It'll also cut jobs, but that's happened before, and society has recovered. For example, when machines took over workers in factories in the late eighteen hundreds (I believe), people eventually found new work because humanity is constantly evolving and inventing new things, needing new people to fill in the opening work slots.

    Another defence against piracy I forgot in my last post: Piracy is a good way to 'test' and 'sample' things. You can argue that video game demos and trailers do that, but they don't give you the complete picture. Some video games, especially J-RPGs, which are about all I play, can take a very long time to get 'off the ground,' so to speak. Take the Nintendo Gamecube's Tales of Symphonia, for example. When it first came out, I borrowed it from a friend, and for the first fourth of the huge game (about 15 hours), I thought, "This game isn't that great. Why's it so overrated?" Then, as I got further in, I began to really love it, and by the end of the 60-hour experience, I was an avid fan of the entire Tales series. I returned the game to my friend and straight away rushed out to the store to buy myself a copy. A demo would not have sold me the way the actual game did (sure, I borrowed it from a friend rather than pirating it, but the result would've been exactly the same either way).

    Video games and movies are not like food and drink: A lot of the time, you can't just take a few 'bites' and know if you'll love it or not. Often you have to experience the entire journey, or at least half of it. I don't see why people should pay full-price for something they didn't enjoy or something they're never going to use again. Oh, you can argue that the makers still deserve the money for their time and labor, and I agree, but that makes me circle back around to my previous argument of lowering prices. I'll pay $10 or so to play a video game I'm not sure I'll enjoy. If I don't like it, I'm not paying any more. If I do like it, I'll pay more. I'll also recommend the series to anyone I think will buy it, which will help sales as well. Watch: Anyone reading this, try and (if you like them) buy some Tales games. They're awesome.

    If you enjoy the experience of a video game and movie but STILL don't pay for it, you're kind of a douche, I admit, and I never do that. If I enjoy something, I pay for it, even if it is overpriced. At the same time, I can understand why people don't. People who earn minimum wage can hardly afford to spend their money on such things. You might say, "Well, they should go without," but I say, "No, someone who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford entertainment without having to resort to piracy." But life isn't fair. People are paid crappy wages for working their asses off, and in turn those people pirate things. The world isn't perfect, my friend.

    It's not always about business, either. A lot of the time, companies can just be greedy a-holes. I'll give you an example: The entire series of Cardcaptor Sakura on DVD was about $350 in Japan when it first came out. With English subtitles, it was $800. So... $450. For subtitles. Not even an uncut dub to go alongside it. Just subtitles. Meanwhile, the entire series of Dragon Ball (Z) Kai (98 episodes - Cardcaptor Sakura is 70 episodes, in case you're curious), in Japanese AND English (and English subtitles), is about $200 (not taking inflation into account). Hmmm... How 'bout that? It's almost as if the people who subtitled Cardcaptor Sakura were greedy pieces of crap who knew dedicated fans of the series were desperate for an uncut version of the series and so took advantage of them... Certainly, it's such a crime to cost people like that money, right?
    Last edited by BoxedLunch; 30th December 2012 at 3:18 AM.
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    I don't see the problem with ripping songs you had no intention of buy in the first place. They wouldn't get your money anyway and as long as you didn't send it to a miliion people, you're not stopping anyone else from buying it.

    Like I said, ripping a song is no different than that taking your phone on the subway and listening to it on Youtube.

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    Well, if you want a particular song from an album and you don't want the other songs that go with it? Would you buy it? Or will you just use the internet to obtain it?

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    I think this is a good example of Anti-Piracy right here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtotDsUJyuQ

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    It's pretty obvious that those who pirate and see nothing wrong with it, are delusional.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    I don't see the problem with ripping songs you had no intention of buy in the first place. They wouldn't get your money anyway and as long as you didn't send it to a miliion people, you're not stopping anyone else from buying it.
    Right, they wouldn't get your money, but you wouldn't get their work either. However, you have their work and they don't have your money.


    Like I said, ripping a song is no different than that taking your phone on the subway and listening to it on Youtube.
    Except, if the song is on youtube legally, your hit of the video correlates to some ad revenue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
    About 97% of these women posing for pornographic pictures are held at gunpoint, and it can be anywhere. The majority of the time is by force.
    Lulz wat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChedWick View Post
    Except, if the song is on youtube legally, your hit of the video correlates to some ad revenue.
    To rip a song of Youtube, you need the link. Which means you have to visit the page which generates a view.

    By this logic, it's still fine for those who rip off of Youtube because you still generate a view getting the link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    To rip a song of Youtube, you need the link. Which means you have to visit the page which generates a view.

    By this logic, it's still fine for those who rip off of Youtube because you still generate a view getting the link.
    The use of any Youtube video that is not intended by Google and the companies owning the songs is a violation of the ToS. Generating a hit has nothing to do with it.

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    What about the ones that are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChedWick
    It's pretty obvious that those who pirate and see nothing wrong with it, are delusional.
    Debate my last post and tell me why, then. Don't just give up. I'm in debating mode here! >_<
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxedLunch View Post
    Debate my last post and tell me why, then. Don't just give up. I'm in debating mode here! >_<
    Walloftext crits chedwick for over 9000!

    I didn't even read your post. I don't care to either. That doesn't change what I've already posted or what I did quote and responded to tho. Especially, from what I can see after skimming, you didn't quote me.
    Last edited by ChedWick; 31st December 2012 at 6:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
    About 97% of these women posing for pornographic pictures are held at gunpoint, and it can be anywhere. The majority of the time is by force.
    Lulz wat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxedLunch View Post
    You're assuming that every person who 'steals' (clones) the CD would've bought it. A lot wouldn't have. In fact, if the cloning option hadn't been available, the douche in question might have very well taken the CD itself, which would've been even worse.
    That is true. A lot of people would not have bought the Cd, but a few more would have. This would still increase the revnue. The ones who didn't would only listen to it on the radio, pandora, youtube, and other sites until the time they could afford it, or they are as enthuastic about the song.
    Actually, yes. I found the game on eBay, not a second-hand video game store. The person selling the game was not affiliated with Nintendo in any way; he was just a greedy douche getting rid of his game. If I'd been stupid enough to pay him the $100 AUD he was asking for for an old N64 game, he would've gotten money, eBay would've gotten some money, and Nintendo would've gotten jack. Or, maybe they would've gotten... a few cents. So, I should've emptied my wallet on an unfair price for something just to give Nintendo a few cents? Right...

    So, what you are saying is that the stores were able to lower the price of the 3DS by $100 and still make a profit? What does that tell you, miles0624? That they were charging far too much, just like industries always do. They're getting greedy, and piracy is making it harder for them to get away with it. This is a good thing, in my opinion. I mean, look at how much Hollywood actors and producers are making. It's ridiculous. I'm not for pirating small, independent movies that need the money, but Hollywood movies? Hell yeah. Not that they're worth it most of the time, but still.
    Actually, it is still no. I think you misunderstood something and agreed with me. Nintendo only gets money that they sell to the stores. The stores can mark up the prices up to 110%. For example, remember how the playstation 3 cost $300 when it came out. Sony was only selling it to stores for a $110 on wholesale price. You had to buy 100 at a time to get this price, but these are retail stores and that is what they do. So it goes like this:

    110+shipping and handling equals about 150 total for game. So before taxes the company that sold the game is netting $150 profit per game. This goes to pay the company first, then slowly makes it way to the owner. Out of that $150, the owner probably made 50 cents. However, if they sell 30,000 products making that a day, they make 15,000 dollars a day. In a year, they would make 5.48 million a year. That is only off one store. When you add the multiple stores is how it gets into the billions and so forth (I am counting all other products in the store at this time).

    The difference between this and and music, like stated above is that Nintendo will not make any more than that $110 dollars per game. That is the end of their profit. Music, however, is given royalties on top of their initial payment for every song sold, played, etc. The same goes with movies and actors. That is the reason google has to keep taking videos down because they don't pay out royalties. It is this reason you can't compare video game pirating to music pirating. Two completely different things unless apple and their Xbox change it like they are planning.

    So what? That's their problem, not mine. Are you saying that, if it's not available in my country because the creators/distributes of it are too slow, I should just go without it? Ain't gonna happen, my friend.
    We aren't debating availability here, we are debating exceptions to prices. Actually, it is your problem. If you can't afford it, a company can't say, "look, this person is poorer than others, so we will give it to them cheaper." They have to look at each consumer objectively. It is not the companies job to look after you, but to make sure you get the product you asked for.

    Shareholders will learn to live with it, just as actors and producers would learn to live with making less money if there was no other choice. See, capitalism means that, if an actor or producer doesn't feel like they're getting paid enough for one movie, they can just find another movie that will pay them more. Same with professional sports players. However, if all industries had to cut salaries, the actors and producers would have no other companies to jump to, and they'd just have to make do with what they were being offered. Sure, they'd whine a bit, but ultimately they'd get used to it.

    Note: I'm not a communist. I know that society has to have low, middle and high in order to thrive. My problem is the gross disproportion of this, which is only getting larger. If piracy helps bridge that gap a little, I'm all for it.
    However, that is not true. In Capitalism, Shareholders are the owners of the company. If a company is selling stuff cheaper, the shareholders are losing money (dividens). You know what happens then. Ceo gets fired, chief staff gets fired, whoever they want gets hired, and then the prices go back to where they were. Shareholders don't have to deal with it as long as they have 50+% of the shares on their side. Capitalism also means that people have the right to blackball you and leave you broke on the street.

    Note: No problem being communist. I feel like they are the most misunderstood people, especially by my fellow Americans. We don't nesscerally need a low, middle, and higher class. Its just that in communism, everyone just needs to be on the same page. Communism, and capitalism to a much lesser extent, are perfectly oiled machines that when something happens, it blows up. It happens more with communism because people are selfish complainers. (conservative, but no where near being a fascist. More towards libertarian.)


    Then I'll just wait the several months/years it'd take for the show to come to my country. ...Oh, wait. No, I won't, because that would be stupid.
    Hey, I was just saying, it will be available to the country eventually. If you want it legally.

    Of course it would. Piracy will never stop completely. However, it would go down. Digital sharing is the way of the future anyway. DVDs and physical copies of video games are becoming obsolete. This will cut distribution prices and labor at video game shops. It'll also cut jobs, but that's happened before, and society has recovered. For example, when machines took over workers in factories in the late eighteen hundreds (I believe), people eventually found new work because humanity is constantly evolving and inventing new things, needing new people to fill in the opening work slots.
    No it would. The same people complaining about prices are to lazy to just work an extra thirty minutes a day and say that the money they make for that time period will be their spending money.

    Abstract Thought

    In my opinion (and this is just mine. and completely separate from above), most of pirating can be attributed to poor budgeting skills, and lack of morale. (NOT ALL, but most. I would say 70%.)

    End Abstract Thought

    Another defence against piracy I forgot in my last post: Piracy is a good way to 'test' and 'sample' things. You can argue that video game demos and trailers do that, but they don't give you the complete picture. Some video games, especially J-RPGs, which are about all I play, can take a very long time to get 'off the ground,' so to speak. Take the Nintendo Gamecube's Tales of Symphonia, for example. When it first came out, I borrowed it from a friend, and for the first fourth of the huge game (about 15 hours), I thought, "This game isn't that great. Why's it so overrated?" Then, as I got further in, I began to really love it, and by the end of the 60-hour experience, I was an avid fan of the entire Tales series. I returned the game to my friend and straight away rushed out to the store to buy myself a copy. A demo would not have sold me the way the actual game did (sure, I borrowed it from a friend rather than pirating it, but the result would've been exactly the same either way).
    Rentals!!!!


    Video games and movies are not like food and drink: A lot of the time, you can't just take a few 'bites' and know if you'll love it or not. Often you have to experience the entire journey, or at least half of it. I don't see why people should pay full-price for something they didn't enjoy or something they're never going to use again. Oh, you can argue that the makers still deserve the money for their time and labor, and I agree, but that makes me circle back around to my previous argument of lowering prices. I'll pay $10 or so to play a video game I'm not sure I'll enjoy. If I don't like it, I'm not paying any more. If I do like it, I'll pay more. I'll also recommend the series to anyone I think will buy it, which will help sales as well. Watch: Anyone reading this, try and (if you like them) buy some Tales games. They're awesome.


    If you enjoy the experience of a video game and movie but STILL don't pay for it, you're kind of a douche, I admit, and I never do that. If I enjoy something, I pay for it, even if it is overpriced. At the same time, I can understand why people don't. People who earn minimum wage can hardly afford to spend their money on such things. You might say, "Well, they should go without," but I say, "No, someone who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford entertainment without having to resort to piracy." But life isn't fair. People are paid crappy wages for working their asses off, and in turn those people pirate things. The world isn't perfect, my friend.[/QUOTE]

    Agree, but people pick the worst minimum wage jobs. I have friends who refused to work at Mcdonalds with me because they thought it was beneath them and worked at target. In college, my friends ended up taking loans while I got my reimbursement from Mcdonalds and will be graduating loan free in May. People need to pick things that work for them and not just pick whatever.

    It's not always about business, either. A lot of the time, companies can just be greedy a-holes. I'll give you an example: The entire series of Cardcaptor Sakura on DVD was about $350 in Japan when it first came out. With English subtitles, it was $800. So... $450. For subtitles. Not even an uncut dub to go alongside it. Just subtitles. Meanwhile, the entire series of Dragon Ball (Z) Kai (98 episodes - Cardcaptor Sakura is 70 episodes, in case you're curious), in Japanese AND English (and English subtitles), is about $200 (not taking inflation into account). Hmmm... How 'bout that? It's almost as if the people who subtitled Cardcaptor Sakura were greedy pieces of crap who knew dedicated fans of the series were desperate for an uncut version of the series and so took advantage of them... Certainly, it's such a crime to cost people like that money, right?
    I do agree with this. Some companies are just greedy and do need to be put in their place. Now while stating this, it is not our job to decide which company is doing what. Maybe they were going bankrupt. As much as I agree with you on Cardcaptor, I cannot actively say what to do because I don't deal with their finances. I believe it is our position to render justice. Plus, if we really wanted to hurt them, we would just boycott them until the company sees that they are losing money and have to get rid of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voicerocker View Post
    There is a simple answer to all of this. It is called "piracy" for a reason. Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong. Can't afford the stuff you want? Too bad. Learn to live without it, because if it's for your entertainment, you don't NEED it anyway. Case closed.
    Actually, it's illegal because several people with power deem it wrong. You got it reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    Everything in this world has something to do with right and wrong.
    Prove it. Or at least give plausibility arguments.

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    That is true. A lot of people would not have bought the Cd, but a few more would have. This would still increase the revnue. The ones who didn't would only listen to it on the radio, pandora, youtube, and other sites until the time they could afford it, or they are as enthuastic about the song.
    then again, I could just go on youtube when i wanted to hear the song, or i could use my youtube app (which i assume is legal, but i wouldnt quote me on that if i were you) which allows me to save vids on my device so that i can view them without internet service.

    Hey, I was just saying, it will be available to the country eventually. If you want it legally.
    Or you could have it imported, cuz bear in mind that some countries never get some games/songs/etc.


    And then we come back to the recording debate.
    I think that if you pirate then this would be your best defense. If something was made public, and you recorded, why couldnt you create a copy for a freind who (for any reason) missed and oppertunity to hit "record" on his own DVR? Either way there would have been two recordings. And then we come the the point where if something aired publicly at one point in time then who cares where the first copy came from?
    I made this argument before, and I think it would be the only way to justify pirating. Again, not to say I do support pirating, but if you do, this would be the best way to defend yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    That is true. A lot of people would not have bought the Cd, but a few more would have. This would still increase the revnue. The ones who didn't would only listen to it on the radio, pandora, youtube, and other sites until the time they could afford it, or they are as enthuastic about the song.
    Listening to it on the radio is a chore, since it only comes on at certain times. Youtube is a reasonable argument, but some people can't get portable internet (the way they can get portable iPods). I use AdBlock Plus anyway, so Youtube wouldn't provide any more money for the company than downloading it would (I don't think?). If it does, I'll make a point of making daily stops on Youtube and clicking on and watching one second of the songs I listen to get the ad revune.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Actually, it is still no. I think you misunderstood something and agreed with me. Nintendo only gets money that they sell to the stores. The stores can mark up the prices up to 110%. For example, remember how the playstation 3 cost $300 when it came out. Sony was only selling it to stores for a $110 on wholesale price. You had to buy 100 at a time to get this price, but these are retail stores and that is what they do. So it goes like this:

    110+shipping and handling equals about 150 total for game. So before taxes the company that sold the game is netting $150 profit per game. This goes to pay the company first, then slowly makes it way to the owner. Out of that $150, the owner probably made 50 cents. However, if they sell 30,000 products making that a day, they make 15,000 dollars a day. In a year, they would make 5.48 million a year. That is only off one store. When you add the multiple stores is how it gets into the billions and so forth (I am counting all other products in the store at this time).

    The difference between this and and music, like stated above is that Nintendo will not make any more than that $110 dollars per game. That is the end of their profit. Music, however, is given royalties on top of their initial payment for every song sold, played, etc. The same goes with movies and actors. That is the reason google has to keep taking videos down because they don't pay out royalties. It is this reason you can't compare video game pirating to music pirating. Two completely different things unless apple and their Xbox change it like they are planning.
    I'm not very good at economics, so how does me not buying a game second-hand from some douche on eBay over-charging it help Nintendo? Haven't they already gotten their money from the store? That was what I was talking about, not new games.

    As for royalties with music, here's another interesting point: What if the writer of the song is dead? Michael Jackson, for example. If I pay money for his songs, his bratty kids, who already got 33 million dollars of their dad's money that they really didn't earn, get money they did nothing to deserve (save for being born into the right family). That doesn't seem right to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    We aren't debating availability here, we are debating exceptions to prices. Actually, it is your problem. If you can't afford it, a company can't say, "look, this person is poorer than others, so we will give it to them cheaper." They have to look at each consumer objectively. It is not the companies job to look after you, but to make sure you get the product you asked for.
    Likewise, it's not my job to make things easy for the companies. I'm not asking them to stop making profits. I'm asking them to stop being greedy. If they want to ask me and other people to stop ripping them off, they need to stop ripping us off. It's not a one-way deal here.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    However, that is not true. In Capitalism, Shareholders are the owners of the company. If a company is selling stuff cheaper, the shareholders are losing money (dividens). You know what happens then. Ceo gets fired, chief staff gets fired, whoever they want gets hired, and then the prices go back to where they were. Shareholders don't have to deal with it as long as they have 50+% of the shares on their side. Capitalism also means that people have the right to blackball you and leave you broke on the street.
    Well, like I said, I'm terrible at economics, but I still think that if piracy continues and companies keep losing money, shareholders are either going to have to accept that they must lower the prices, or they'll have to try to introduce another SOPA bill again because $ > freedom and basic rights. Since they're not going to get away with the latter, they'll either have to do the former or get used to piracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Note: No problem being communist. I feel like they are the most misunderstood people, especially by my fellow Americans. We don't nesscerally need a low, middle, and higher class. Its just that in communism, everyone just needs to be on the same page. Communism, and capitalism to a much lesser extent, are perfectly oiled machines that when something happens, it blows up. It happens more with communism because people are selfish complainers. (conservative, but no where near being a fascist. More towards libertarian.)
    OMG! How dare you understand communism! That's so un-AMERICAN! :P Nuh, just kidding. Communism is a nice idea (I prefer socialism myself, but still), but the problem is that it can't be executed without being abused to high hell by the people in power. Capitalism is the same thing, but since that system relies a lot on abuse in the first place, it's not as noticeable. But we're getting off-topic here. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Hey, I was just saying, it will be available to the country eventually. If you want it legally.
    Well, ideally I would want the stuff legally, but if I have to wait several years (or even several months) longer than another country, I say screw it. I'm not going to wait when other people already have it. If they want to discourage me from pirating stuff I can't get legally, they need to get off their asses and make more of an effort to get it to me legally at a speedy pace.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    No it would. The same people complaining about prices are to lazy to just work an extra thirty minutes a day and say that the money they make for that time period will be their spending money.
    I disagree. In America, the minimum wage is $6-$8, right? I'm not sure how much new Wii games are in America (I looked online but couldn't find any quick answers), so I'll just guess about $40. So, let's say an American is working 40 hours a week, earning $7 an hour. He has to spend most of his money on necessities, especially if he has kids. Let's say he has an extra... $20 a week (having to spend $260 on necessities), that means not only does he have to give up going out with his friends, eating out, drinking, whatever, he has to do this for TWO weeks. Furthermore, doing the math, he'd have to work for five, almost six, hours in order to get the $40 for the game. Working that long for one video game is not my definition of 'reasonable' at all, and I don't see why he should have to put up with it when there are other options, legal or not.

    In short, 30 minutes VS 5.7 hours. Big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Abstract Thought

    In my opinion (and this is just mine. and completely separate from above), most of pirating can be attributed to poor budgeting skills, and lack of morale. (NOT ALL, but most. I would say 70%.)

    End Abstract Thought
    I think it can be sometimes, but for the most part I attribute it to the greediness of the rich and their thinking that $280 a week is a reasonable amount to live on.

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Rentals!!!!
    Hey, I'd love to have been able to rent Secret of Mana (SNES) and Legend of Legaia (PS1). Except... by the time I heard of said games, my video game rental stores didn't offer anything earlier than Gamecube and PS2. So, yeah... I don't know what you expect me to do there.

    It's certainly a reasonable argument for newer games, but since emulators usually take several years to be made, and by that time it's not usually possible to rent the games anymore, it's not a flawless argument. See, when Tales of Symphonia was new, it was pretty impossible to emulate Gamecube games. Of course, these days people can just download ISO's of files and use them on modded consoles, which I agree is wrong. Unless you can't find the game legally, in which case it's excusable. Going back to the Tales series again, many of them haven't been translated into English and are only available in Japan. So, obviously renting them is out of the question. Aside from spending about a hundred dollars on importing a game I'm not even sure I'll like, in a language I speak pretty poorly, how would you suggest I play those games?

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    Agree, but people pick the worst minimum wage jobs. I have friends who refused to work at Mcdonalds with me because they thought it was beneath them and worked at target. In college, my friends ended up taking loans while I got my reimbursement from Mcdonalds and will be graduating loan free in May. People need to pick things that work for them and not just pick whatever.
    You got loan-free from working at a minimum-wage job? That's pretty impressive. I solute you. XD But many people don't pick their minimum-wage jobs. For many, it's that or nothing. And likewise, it's pirating stuff or spending several hours to afford one lousy video game. Piracy may be morally wrong in a way, but I still think it's more morally right than the alternative, which is little better than slave labor as it is.

    (Note: I'm not saying it's always the case for why people pirate. Many people just do it because they can pay a reasonable price for something but don't want to, which I agree is wrong.)

    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624
    I do agree with this. Some companies are just greedy and do need to be put in their place. Now while stating this, it is not our job to decide which company is doing what. Maybe they were going bankrupt. As much as I agree with you on Cardcaptor, I cannot actively say what to do because I don't deal with their finances. I believe it is our position to render justice. Plus, if we really wanted to hurt them, we would just boycott them until the company sees that they are losing money and have to get rid of it.
    Well, if they were going bankrupt, that's not our problem. It's not our job to save them by paying more for things than we should. Besides, I don't think they were going bankrupt. They were just taking advantage of the fans' dedication to the series and desperation to get their hands on the uncut version. Sure, boycotting them would have the same effect, but why should fans go without the series just because a company is being unreasonable, greedy douches? Besides, piracy will annoy them more, which I'm completely fine with. Any company that thinks it can get away with charging $450 for subtitles deserves to be annoyed and ripped off, IMHO. <3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxedLunch View Post
    Listening to it on the radio is a chore, since it only comes on at certain times. Youtube is a reasonable argument, but some people can't get portable internet (the way they can get portable iPods). I use AdBlock Plus anyway, so Youtube wouldn't provide any more money for the company than downloading it would (I don't think?). If it does, I'll make a point of making daily stops on Youtube and clicking on and watching one second of the songs I listen to get the ad revune.
    After a certain amount of clicks, if youtube has ads playing on the video, the person gets paid for each click with that ad. I think you have t have 30k clicks to get paid. However, if you don't have that many, you won't get paid for that add. After 30k clicks, each additional click gets you five cents I believe. (I read this in an economics class back is October, so my mind is fuzzy.) It tracks you ip address so once you click, it doesn't count you again.


    I'm not very good at economics, so how does me not buying a game second-hand from some douche on eBay over-charging it help Nintendo? Haven't they already gotten their money from the store? That was what I was talking about, not new games.
    I agreed with you, I was saying they don't get money off of used games. Only the new games they sell to the store. With respect, I thought you were also including new games with used games.

    As for royalties with music, here's another interesting point: What if the writer of the song is dead? Michael Jackson, for example. If I pay money for his songs, his bratty kids, who already got 33 million dollars of their dad's money that they really didn't earn, get money they did nothing to deserve (save for being born into the right family). That doesn't seem right to me.
    It actually goes to the people who own the right. Like his kids own the right to the Beatles, so they get paid every time the song is played. However, his studio owns the right to his music, so only the industry and any alive band members now get paid unless the children buy the rights. They still get the money from the concert though. Plus, even if they did, they could only receive it for a certain amount of years unless it is in a trust. That is how itunes can place things for free on their server.

    Likewise, it's not my job to make things easy for the companies. I'm not asking them to stop making profits. I'm asking them to stop being greedy. If they want to ask me and other people to stop ripping them off, they need to stop ripping us off. It's not a one-way deal here.
    It depends who your asking.

    Well, like I said, I'm terrible at economics, but I still think that if piracy continues and companies keep losing money, shareholders are either going to have to accept that they must lower the prices, or they'll have to try to introduce another SOPA bill again because $ > freedom and basic rights. Since they're not going to get away with the latter, they'll either have to do the former or get used to piracy.
    However, they have made it hell for people getting caught. 15k and 3 months of jail time per song (of which they get 6.5 k before taxes) makes it a really hard alternative to pirating.

    OMG! How dare you understand communism! That's so un-AMERICAN! :P Nuh, just kidding. Communism is a nice idea (I prefer socialism myself, but still), but the problem is that it can't be executed without being abused to high hell by the people in power. Capitalism is the same thing, but since that system relies a lot on abuse in the first place, it's not as noticeable. But we're getting off-topic here. XD
    *shot*

    Actually, someone should have done a debate on that. I have not seen on of those on this forum.

    Well, ideally I would want the stuff legally, but if I have to wait several years (or even several months) longer than another country, I say screw it. I'm not going to wait when other people already have it. If they want to discourage me from pirating stuff I can't get legally, they need to get off their asses and make more of an effort to get it to me legally at a speedy pace.
    Agree.

    I disagree. In America, the minimum wage is $6-$8, right? I'm not sure how much new Wii games are in America (I looked online but couldn't find any quick answers), so I'll just guess about $40. So, let's say an American is working 40 hours a week, earning $7 an hour. He has to spend most of his money on necessities, especially if he has kids. Let's say he has an extra... $20 a week (having to spend $260 on necessities), that means not only does he have to give up going out with his friends, eating out, drinking, whatever, he has to do this for TWO weeks. Furthermore, doing the math, he'd have to work for five, almost six, hours in order to get the $40 for the game. Working that long for one video game is not my definition of 'reasonable' at all, and I don't see why he should have to put up with it when there are other options, legal or not.

    In short, 30 minutes VS 5.7 hours. Big difference.
    That also depends. The national minimum wage is 7.25. However, some states have their own standard minimum wage. 32 to be exact, with the highest minimum wage being 9.19.

    On the case for the national minimum wage. I would have to say that that is your choice. Do whatever makes you happy and you would find pleasure in doing. However, you can't blame someone for your inability to get something legally.

    I think it can be sometimes, but for the most part I attribute it to the greediness of the rich and their thinking that $280 a week is a reasonable amount to live on.
    I can agree with this.

    Hey, I'd love to have been able to rent Secret of Mana (SNES) and Legend of Legaia (PS1). Except... by the time I heard of said games, my video game rental stores didn't offer anything earlier than Gamecube and PS2. So, yeah... I don't know what you expect me to do there.

    It's certainly a reasonable argument for newer games, but since emulators usually take several years to be made, and by that time it's not usually possible to rent the games anymore, it's not a flawless argument. See, when Tales of Symphonia was new, it was pretty impossible to emulate Gamecube games. Of course, these days people can just download ISO's of files and use them on modded consoles, which I agree is wrong. Unless you can't find the game legally, in which case it's excusable. Going back to the Tales series again, many of them haven't been translated into English and are only available in Japan. So, obviously renting them is out of the question. Aside from spending about a hundred dollars on importing a game I'm not even sure I'll like, in a language I speak pretty poorly, how would you suggest I play those games?
    Lol, I have never done a rental. For some reason, I thought you could still rent N64 games.

    You got loan-free from working at a minimum-wage job? That's pretty impressive. I solute you. XD But many people don't pick their minimum-wage jobs. For many, it's that or nothing. And likewise, it's pirating stuff or spending several hours to afford one lousy video game. Piracy may be morally wrong in a way, but I still think it's more morally right than the alternative, which is little better than slave labor as it is.
    Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that some minimum wage jobs have tuition reimbursement. (Namely, Mcdonalds, Wendy's, target, etc.) So on that, I could live through the slave labor.

    Anyways, that job is the only one they can get currently. However, if they keep searching for one, they will be able to get a different one later on.

    (Note: I'm not saying it's always the case for why people pirate. Many people just do it because they can pay a reasonable price for something but don't want to, which I agree is wrong.)
    Good.


    Well, if they were going bankrupt, that's not our problem. It's not our job to save them by paying more for things than we should. Besides, I don't think they were going bankrupt. They were just taking advantage of the fans' dedication to the series and desperation to get their hands on the uncut version. Sure, boycotting them would have the same effect, but why should fans go without the series just because a company is being unreasonable, greedy douches? Besides, piracy will annoy them more, which I'm completely fine with. Any company that thinks it can get away with charging $450 for subtitles deserves to be annoyed and ripped off, IMHO. <3
    I would rather boycott than go to jail =p.

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    Most people think that anyone who downloads stuff from TPB or any other torrent site think they're pirates when they really aren't. Being the pirate is definitely a bigger crime than downloading pirated software, movies or games, and by that I mean being the one who cracks, hacks and uploads said media to the site.

    Though sometimes you don't even have to go as far as piracy to download music or videos: why would you need to download songs when VEVO uploads every song to YouTube?

    Besides, let's say you're Sony. If you have movie-making software that is hugely overpriced at nearly $600 (I'm looking at you, Sony Vegas), you are not going to get money. You're going to get people who would rather buy a brand new computer/TV/console/old, used car/whatever at that price and crack the software at hand with no loss on their part.
    Last edited by Green Blockhead; 27th January 2013 at 2:47 PM.

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    I believe in pirating music, and films. I only agree with pirating video games unless they are from Super Nintendo or earlier, they need to make money and I have respect for what they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimer View Post
    I believe in pirating music, and films. I only agree with pirating video games unless they are from Super Nintendo or earlier, they need to make money and I have respect for what they do.
    so you don't have any respect for any musician or film director? they're trying to make a living too, you know.

    i personally use pirating as a "try before you buy" system. i rarely go and buy music without having heard it first, but it makes for some good finds sometimes when i do. i have a collection of close to 250 CDs and 150 records, and i don't regret spending my money on them at all. i buy less movies and tv because they are impractically expensive (no way in hell i am paying $35 a season for a show with 5-10 seasons), but i do buy my favourites during sales and such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimer View Post
    I only agree with pirating video games unless they are from Super Nintendo or earlier, they need to make money and I have respect for what they do.
    I used to have this opinion too ("they don't lose money on the old games no longer in print!") but keep in mind now they have the Virtual Console, so technically it's sort of the same as pirating DS or Wii games. It's just you're pirating a game that costs 5 bucks instead of 40. But like I said, I can't exactly judge you on this without being a hypocrite so I won't say anything beyond that.

    That being said, I still don't see any moral problem in "pirating" games that are inaccessible or very hard to find otherwise. Mother 3, for example, is impossible for English-speakers to get otherwise.
    Last edited by Hejiru; 2nd February 2013 at 7:29 PM.
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    whether or not its wrong and illegal doesnt matter much if its not enforced. People dont care, no one sees anything wrong with taking from the rich.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Kain View Post
    whether or not its wrong and illegal doesnt matter much if its not enforced. People dont care, no one sees anything wrong with taking from the rich.
    You forget this doesn't just apply to the rich. Plus do you think everyone at a huge company makes the big bucks? What about independent studios or some company that is just starting out?

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    IMO pirating should be legal. A lot of mainstream musicians make millions of dollars not even doing a fraction of the effort an average person does. And that average person has to go a LONG way to make a small sliver of what that musician makes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waffle_x_v View Post
    IMO pirating should be legal. A lot of mainstream musicians make millions of dollars not even doing a fraction of the effort an average person does. And that average person has to go a LONG way to make a small sliver of what that musician makes.
    So, because somebody doesn't do as much work as another person means they should have their work copied and spread around the internet for free? Isn't this what happened to Project Zomboid?

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