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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

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    Default United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

    -- EY YO CLICK THE EMBEDDED LINKS IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE PARTICIPATING IN THIS DISCUSSION --

    The United States needs to seriously reevaluate and increase its gun-control laws.

    Today a man killed twenty children and half a dozen adults in a school using a legally purchased semiautomatic assault rifle.

    This comes days after a public shooting in an Oregon Mall.

    Which came less than six months after the largest mass shooting in U.S. history took place in a Colorado movie theater, also using legally obtained semiautomatic weapons.

    In 1997, the year following a school shooting that left seventeen dead, also using legally obtained weapons, the United Kingdom enacted strict gun legislation that "introduced a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons in England, Scotland and Wales." Later that year, further legislation banned "the remaining .22 cartridge handguns in England, Scotland and Wales, and leaving only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal, as well as certain sporting handguns (e.g. "Long-Arms") that fall outside the Home Office Definition of a "Handgun" due to their dimensions," effectively banning all firearms in the UK not designed for use in hunting. Gun-related deaths following passage of the legislature remained more or less consistent, but it's gun-related homicide per capita now falls near the bottom of reporting countries, and well below the United States.

    The United States has the twelfth highest rate (not number; rate) of gun-related homicides among reporting countries in the world. The countries above it are South Africa, the Phillipines, Mexico, Panama, Brazil, Colombia, Swaziland, Guatemala, Honduras, Jamaica and El Salvador. Many of those countries are marked by flourishing drug trades or are currently involved in civil wars. Some countries that fall below the U.S. on this list are also involved in civil wars.

    Japan has nearly zero gun availability. It also reports less than ten gun-related deaths a year on average. Gun violence has dissapated among yakuza (criminal syndicates) as well. Like the United States, Japan has high-population centers, income inequality and violent mainstream media. Less than ten gun-related deaths a year, even among organized criminal groups.

    Isreal and Switzerland, among the only developed nations to have laxer (only arguably) gun control that the United States are marked by either war of their own (Isreal) or a near lack of income inequality and a socialized infrastructure for providing mental health treatment (Switzerland). EDIT -- Also Switzerland's high gun-ownership rate is due to mandatory military service for young men, after which they keep their gun and equipment at home under certain regulations.

    Since the Columbine, there have been 31 school shootings in the United States and only 14 in the rest of the world combined. Nearly all the weapons were obtained legally. Here is a timeline.

    What are we doing?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, will someone please tell me why the United States should not restrict its gun legislation to ban at least semiautomatic weapons? Will someone please let me know why anyone needs any gun that could be used for anything other than sporting or is immobile and slow-firing enough to not be used outside of home protection? Can someone explain why we should not move to not only requiring criminal background checks in order to purchase firearms, but require psychological evaluations and months of review as well?

    Because crazies will be crazies. Today, the same day as a shooter in the U.S. killed 27 people with his legally purchased semiautomatic gun, a man weilding a kinfe attacked 22 in a school in Chengping, China.

    All of them survived.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 6:33 AM.

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    Because the Republicans will not allow any reasonable amount of control. Apparently the 2nd amendment means everyone gets a machine gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pug6666 View Post
    Because the Republicans will not allow any reasonable amount of control. Apparently the 2nd amendment means everyone gets a machine gun.
    So I'm guessing the Democrats have nothing to do with trying to take away guns from reasonable people? Seems legit/sarcasm

    I'm not saying the Democrats cause all of this crap, Republicans have their faults too, but blaming it all on one collective party isn't the answer
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug6666 View Post
    Because the Republicans will not allow any reasonable amount of control. Apparently the 2nd amendment means everyone gets a machine gun.
    Ah no...

    the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes
    Meaning that you have the right to own a gun but you can only use it for purposes in which it isn't against the law. People use them for self defense or there's few who use them for hunting purposes. Yes, there were alot of shootings, however it doesn't mean that the second amendment should be taken away.

    I guess the case isn't "guns don't kill people, people kill people" I see it as "stupid people with guns kill people". I've seen a documentary where someone shows us how easy it is to buy a gun these days. I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe they should reinforce the laws that you have to be over 18 with a permit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothitelle K View Post
    Ah no...

    Meaning that you have the right to own a gun but you can only use it for purposes in which it isn't against the law. People use them for self defense or there's few who use them for hunting purposes. Yes, there were alot of shootings, however it doesn't mean that the second amendment should be taken away.
    So, why are assault rifles still acceptable? What "traditionally lawful purpose" would they serve that another gun couldn't do just as well or better, and not be as readily used for mass murder?

    I guess the case isn't "guns don't kill people, people kill people" I see it as "stupid people with guns kill people". I've seen a documentary where someone shows us how easy it is to buy a gun these days. I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe they should reinforce the laws that you have to be over 18 with a permit.
    Well, yes, that too, and doing background checks, and having an actual wait period, and maybe the gun stores should have some kind of permit, too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    So, why are assault rifles still acceptable? What "traditionally lawful purpose" would they serve that another gun couldn't do just as well or better, and not be as readily used for mass murder?
    You know some people do like to collect things, just merely to have them and yes sometimes use them for hunting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    Well, yes, that too, and doing background checks, and having an actual wait period, and maybe the gun stores should have some kind of permit, too?
    You mean like what they have in Connecticut? The state that has some of the strongest gun control laws in the country and there still was a mass shooting?

    Here is the thing, you can have every gun control law you want, but this shooting still would have happened. Only way to prevent it would be to ban guns all together but that is ignorant merely because as others have said, we have a massive border with Mexico that already has a well connected network to ship in things. Not to mention in the next 20 to 30 years with the spread of 3D Printers, Gun Control laws in and of themselves will become obsolete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    You know some people do like to collect things, just merely to have them and yes sometimes use them for hunting.
    "just merely to have them" sure sounds like a reasonable excuse to own a high-powered rifle that serves no exclusive purpose over another gun besides mass murder.

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    I don't see how "it could still happen" is a good argument. Like "if there were no guns this would never happen", it's technically true, but doesn't really address what went wrong, much less makes any attempt at fixing the issue.
    And just because *THIS* tragedy may not be related to loose gun control laws (not saying it is or isn't) doesn't mean we don't need tighter gun laws in general.

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    What the second amendment says about 'gun ownership' was written nearly a century before the first semi- automatic weapon was made and before anyone even had the conception that a fully-automatic rifle with 20+ pieces of death in it would be purchasable by pretty much any adult.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    Key word here being Militia. Rarely do you see people buying and amassing weapons for non military and non police groups to keep their communities safe. What we do see instead is that mostly every time it is individuals buying and using weapons. Another key word here also would be regulated. Its referring to groups and organizations, not just people as in anybody and everybody. The second amendment almost never, ever applies when talking about gun use or ownership by individuals. It applies only when talking about individuals within an organized militia owning weapons.

    So yes, we need some reform and better regulation. It is becoming quite self evident.
    Last edited by Cosmical El Amarna; 17th December 2012 at 3:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmical El Amarna View Post
    What the second amendment says about 'gun ownership' was written nearly a century before the first semi- automatic weapon was made and before anyone even had the conception that a fully-automatic handgun with 20+ pieces of death in it would be purchasable by pretty much any adult.

    Key word here being Militia. Rarely do you see people buying and amassing weapons for non military and non police groups to keep their communities safe. What we do see instead is that mostly every time it is individuals buying and using weapons. Another key word here also would be regulated. Its referring to groups and organizations, not just people as in anybody and everybody. The second amendment almost never, ever applies when talking about gun use or ownership by individuals. It applies only when talking about individuals within an organized militia owning weapons.

    So yes, we need some reform and better regulation. It is becoming quite self evident.
    I agree with what this person said.

    Can someone compare our system of gun regulation to another, perhaps more safe country? If not, then compare it too Britain...I'd kinda like to know.


    And Yes I'd also agree with the fact that criminals don't care about the laws. Yet, we need to enforce them to get much of anywhere. Lets not play party politics please >3>...we get enough of it, lol

    EDIT: opps, missed the UK one.
    Last edited by EmphaticPikachu; 17th December 2012 at 1:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    Can someone compare our system of gun regulation to another, perhaps more safe country? If not, then compare it too Britain...I'd kinda like to know.
    I'd just like to point out that the first post has links to details on both Britain and Japan's gun-control laws, as well as their results. There are several international gun-violence statistics linked there too. (Spoiler alert: Britain and Japan have a much, much lower rate of gun-violence than the U.S., along with just about every country not economically dependent on drug-running or embroiled in civil war.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie
    Then again, you'll have people who'll lie about their mental health...
    Not just a self-report, though. An actual evaluation. It wouldn't catch everyone, but it could stop a lot.

    I'm glad to see nearly everyone in agreement. I'm fine with individuals owning guns -- a reasonable list of approved weapons for hunting or home-protection. However, we need to make the process of obtaining one as long, difficult and regulated as possible -- more of a privilege than a right.

    I think this gun control issue is blown out of proportion. First off all, if people strongly desire something, they're gonna get it, legal or not. Secondly, a gun isn't the only way a person can take someone's life away (blades, poisons, heck even a brick can kill if you try hard enough). Lastly, maybe people should focus on regulating ammunition instead of guns. A gun is practically useless without bullets. Hate to put that way, but that's what I think of this issue.
    Man, I hate this argument.

    Like, you can say that, right? But it ignores so many things we know about the motives of these public attackers, and ignores the statistics of the U.S.'s 31 mass shootings in the last twenty-some years compared to the rest of the world's combined 14. I think there's much more credence to the theory that we see a trend of people's violent fantasies being enabled by easy access to guns (whether their own or a parent's). A waiting period, a lack of legal availability, etc, may give them the time to rethink the attack, or to be identified as needing help. At worst, we may see more violent attacks in the vein of China's knifing, which, I don't know about you, but based on the survival rate, is a very preferable alternative.

    Which, by the way, covers my other hated argument: You can kill someone with almost anything; should we ban those too? No, because nothing is as effective at killing a room full of people as a semiautomatic weapon, and nearly everything you've listed has a separate practical use. If violent psychopaths will be violent psychopaths, let's at least remove their most effective tools.

    And re: Restricting ammo. I'm all for that. It's a decent first step. I believe Canada has some sort of law where ordering ammo requires a current license, a nearly month-long waiting period and mandatory safety training. That's absolutely a good idea.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 2:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the first post has links to details on both Britain and Japan's gun-control laws, as well as their results. There are several international gun-violence statistics linked there too. (Spoiler alert: Britain and Japan have a much, much lower rate of gun-violence than the U.S., along with just about every country not economically dependent on drug-running or embroiled in civil war.)
    Japan and Britain are also island nations that do not share a massive border that is largely dominated by illegal trade..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    Not just a self-report, though. An actual evaluation. It wouldn't catch everyone, but it could stop a lot.

    I'm glad to see nearly everyone in agreement. I'm fine with individuals owning guns -- a reasonable list of approved weapons for hunting or home-protection. However, we need to make the process of obtaining one as long, difficult and regulated as possible -- more of a privilege than a right.
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test. Because as had happened with this shooting, merely having laws preventing these people from buying guns will only cause them to get them through the black market or to merely steal them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test. Because as had happened with this shooting, merely having laws preventing these people from buying guns will only cause them to get them through the black market or to merely steal them.
    I agree; we should be doing more to support individuals with mental health issues.

    Too bad Republicans cut funding for their support at every turn.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test.
    I wouldn't place this as the sole priority but this is a suggestion worth considering and discussing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the first post has links to details on both Britain and Japan's gun-control laws, as well as their results. There are several international gun-violence statistics linked there too. (Spoiler alert: Britain and Japan have a much, much lower rate of gun-violence than the U.S., along with just about every country not economically dependent on drug-running or embroiled in civil war.)
    I edited my post to say that I noticed about a minute afterwards. ._....
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    Keep your hands off my 2nd amendment rights government.
    Well technically,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmical El Amarna View Post
    What the second amendment says about 'gun ownership' was written nearly a century before the first semi- automatic weapon was made and before anyone even had the conception that a fully-automatic rifle with 20+ pieces of death in it would be purchasable by pretty much any adult.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    Key word here being Militia. Rarely do you see people buying and amassing weapons for non military and non police groups to keep their communities safe. What we do see instead is that mostly every time it is individuals buying and using weapons. Another key word here also would be regulated. Its referring to groups and organizations, not just people as in anybody and everybody. The second amendment almost never, ever applies when talking about gun use or ownership by individuals. It applies only when talking about individuals within an organized militia owning weapons.
    Last edited by Cosmical El Amarna; 17th December 2012 at 3:12 AM.
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    You have to understand that a great many of the people who oppose gun control are straight up loony.

    I recently had a bunch of my cousin's friends tell me about how the Second Amendment was written with the purpose of making sure American citizens are AS WELL-ARMED AS THE MILITARY in case the government ever turns on its citizens and tries to control/subdue them. This is not a rational mindset; this is the thought process I had always previously attributed to old coots living in cabins in the woods. But this came from a bunch of young, upper-middle-class college-attending kids. The government wants to control and enslave us, so we need to be armed well enough to take on the military. The Second Amendment is supposed to give every day citizens 50 caliber rifles and fully automatic machine guns, apparently.

    You know, despite the fact that these kids are cool with the PATRIOT Act and the NDAA, which are by far the most oppressive things the American government has done since slavery and Asian-American interment and the Trail of Tears (all of which my cousin and his friends are also okay with). So I have no idea what more they think the government is going to do that they'll have to go arms up. But that's another discussion.

    The Second Amendment IS awkwardly worded. It doesn't say what "arms" are. It doesn't say what a "militia" is, and certainly not what a "well-regulated" one is. That said, I've come to peace with the fact that there is a level of gun ownership that is protected by it and our citizens are entitled to, but the main problem is that those that oppose gun control usually oppose ANY rational semblance of control that anyone with common sense knows is the right thing to do. In their minds, they literally think that if we ban armor-piercing rounds and semi-automatic weapons or putting a limit on guns owned in a household, the government will take away hunting rifles and BB guns the very next day.
    Last edited by Sid87; 17th December 2012 at 12:17 AM.


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    The only use I see for gun availability is hunting and personal protection, but I believe that gun control's benefits far outweigh its negatives. Hunting is mainly a pastime for most people in today's modern society, so I don't believe that the hunting argument is that strong.

    The personal protection argument is slightly better because I understand the need for a weapon in case of an assault on one's person or home, but reduced gun availability will also decrease the chance that the criminal has a firearm.

    As stated in the OP, countries with zero gun availability have less reports of gun violence than countries that allow everyone to own guns. And I also agree with the OP that people purchasing weapons should have their background checked for psychological imbalances, though that won't always stop crazy people from obtaining weapons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    As stated in the OP, countries with zero gun availability have less reports of gun violence than countries that allow everyone to own guns. And I also agree with the OP that people purchasing weapons should have their background checked for psychological imbalances, though that won't always stop crazy people from obtaining weapons.
    Well of course, but you can still commit a crime without a gun.

    I agree that people should be screened when they go to purchase a gun, or get a gun permit. In fact, it should be like with your driver's license. Every license has an expiration date, and you have to renew it by that date. So this should be a requirement for gun permits as well, and you have to be screened for mental evaluation.

    Then again, you'll have people who'll lie about their mental health...

    Either way, I don't want guns to be out-lawed completely. Not everyone is great at self-defense, not everyone is great at throwing knives, not everyone is an archer, et cetera, et cetera. Just because you can hide in your house doesn't mean that the person who broke in won't do harmful things to you. I want to be able to protect my family if the criminals ever make a move to harm. I can't always guarantee that the person threatening my family won't ever have a gun on their person, but many burglars are cowardly people who will run at the drop of a pin, and will certainly run from a house owned by a gun owner. But people are unpredictable, and I don't want to turn my back on any trespasser.

    If people are so insistent on gun control, then we should be talking more about gun safety, especially to the children. Instead of telling someone "Don't play with guns" and just leaving it at that, how about we teach that person by letting them see a gun in person, and have them handle it (safety on and no bullets in the chamber, you need to be smart with this)? Makes more sense then just showing a digital picture of a gun, because then the person will have had some personal experience with a gun, and will have (hopefully) gained some common sense.

    That's just me, though. I don't know if I ever will get a gun, I personally don't want to, but if I have to (I pray it doesn't get to that point) then I will. And for that, I don't want a very strict gun control law. I'd be better off with having difficulty (but not impossible) getting permits to a gun than to have no guns at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie View Post
    If people are so insistent on gun control, then we should be talking more about gun safety, especially to the children. Instead of telling someone "Don't play with guns" and just leaving it at that, how about we teach that person by letting them see a gun in person, and have them handle it (safety on and no bullets in the chamber, you need to be smart with this)? Makes more sense then just showing a digital picture of a gun, because then the person will have had some personal experience with a gun, and will have (hopefully) gained some common sense.
    I do believe there is slight a connection between socialization of learning what guns are. However keep in mind that kids tend to override there parents by the time the reach the age that they atcually understand what it is. Honestly, the situation depends upon the kid's personality and area of living...but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to try something like that. But lets get more confirmation upon what works when it comes to making kids understand that. :3
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    Also the swiss have reasons for that as a man passivley serves in the army and has powerful guns at home as a result.

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    Uunters can just use traps and stiff likenthe old days

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    I do believe that gun control is needed but we have to think for a second here. Criminals/crazy people don't care about laws. If they really want a gun, they are going to go to the right people and get it anyway. It's just like drugs. The republican argument is to not focus on gun control but instead focus on the medical sufficiency of the mentally unstable.
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    The whole thing about gun control is that they obtain a weapon, legal or not. There is no way to stop guns with there being so many of them. The only thing that the government can do is promote gun safety and make it harder to obtain a weapon for law abiding citizens like me. That's all gun control does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klizcool View Post
    The whole thing about gun control is that they obtain a weapon, legal or not. There is no way to stop guns with there being so many of them. The only thing that the government can do is promote gun safety and make it harder to obtain a weapon for law abiding citizens like me. That's all gun control does.
    Yes. As evidenced by the first post, that's clearly all gun control laws do.
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