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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    [everything you say]
    The purpose is to reduce gun violence in the United States, not put an end to death. Stop trying to divert the focus of the debate. What critical purpose do guns serve to the greater public that we couldn't live without them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    The purpose is to reduce gun violence in the United States, not put an end to death. Stop trying to divert the focus of the debate.
    The focus of this debate has changed to be one to reduce death, we have seen this when we debated knife violence and numerous times when people say that guns cause more deaths than knives. I am not diverting focus, I am merely confronting a hypocritical argument that has existed in this debate for the past few weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    What critical purpose do guns serve to the greater public that we couldn't live without them?
    Gun's for a long time have been known as the Great Equalizer, for those living in poor neighborhoods, for the rape victim walking alone at night, to the abuse victim that is on the run. Guns serve as a last resort to save them when seconds count and the police are minutes away. One clear example of this is the woman who shot a intruder in her house when he advanced on her and her children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    As such with 15,000,000 less cars than guns, it would seem statistically easier to go door to door and add limiters to engines to prevent speeds upward of 20 MPH than it would to go to door to door to grab guns, it would probably be safer too. ( Less chance of cops getting shot/uprising )
    You can't be serious?

    And yet there is a sizable minority that do need them for self defense that really is beyond debate, there are neighborhoods that are incredibly dangerous to live in, and people require weapons a equalizer to defend themselves.
    If they can prove they need a gun for defense and that they can use it responsibly then give it too them.


    As would knives result in less deaths, as such why not ban both? As well as a whole host of other things that result in less deaths?
    Yeah, but unlike guns we actually need knives for a host of other reasons besides killing.



    How many people have been saved by guns?
    Not enough to warrant handing them out like candy.

    The problem with this is that you are taking a hypocritical argument, you stand on the graves of those that have died and say that you need to ban guns to save lives. Yet when faced with the reality that you cannot just stop with guns if you wish to take away some of the "top contributors" for lives, you shy away from it. That tells me you care less about saving lives, and more about merely banning guns.
    So because I'm unable to ban everything that can cause another person death I just shouldn't bother? That is your argument? Really? It's not that I'm shying away from those factors, it's that it's unrealistic to expect any results from going after them.
    Last edited by Eterna; 13th January 2013 at 4:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    You can't be serious?
    Why not? If we are serious in tackling the greatest contributor to deaths, we could take a person's guns, while at the same time adapting their cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    If they can prove they need a gun for defense and that they can use it responsibly then give it too them.
    So basically you have just given a gun to practically every single law abiding gun permit holder, with those who are criminals merely getting them off the street, welcome back to the Status Quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    Yeah, but unlike guns we actually need knives for a host of other reasons besides killing.
    I believe in this bleak fantasy world I said that keeping around plastic knives would be fine, those things are about as dangerous as a cap gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    Not enough to warrant handing them out like candy.
    Handing them out like candy? Have you been through the process to get a Gun Permit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    So because I'm unable to ban everything that can cause another person death I just shouldn't bother tackling the things I can effect?
    Realistically you are unable to ban anything, the problem is that you continue to say that you wish to ban guns to prevent death, while not wanting to take proactive steps to address other large amounts of deaths. As I said before it makes you come off as merely having a wish to ban guns for the mere fact they are guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    The focus of this debate has changed to be one to reduce death, we have seen this when we debated knife violence and numerous times when people say that guns cause more deaths than knives. I am not diverting focus, I am merely confronting a hypocritical argument that has existed in this debate for the past few weeks.
    Ok then, moving on. Have you acquainted yourself with this post yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    -- EY YO CLICK THE EMBEDDED LINKS IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE PARTICIPATING IN THIS DISCUSSION --

    The United States needs to seriously reevaluate and increase its gun-control laws.

    Today a man killed twenty children and half a dozen adults in a school using a legally purchased semiautomatic assault rifle.

    This comes days after a public shooting in an Oregon Mall.

    Which came less than six months after the largest mass shooting in U.S. history took place in a Colorado movie theater, also using legally obtained semiautomatic weapons.

    In 1997, the year following a school shooting that left seventeen dead, also using legally obtained weapons, the United Kingdom enacted strict gun legislation that "introduced a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons in England, Scotland and Wales." Later that year, further legislation banned "the remaining .22 cartridge handguns in England, Scotland and Wales, and leaving only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal, as well as certain sporting handguns (e.g. "Long-Arms") that fall outside the Home Office Definition of a "Handgun" due to their dimensions," effectively banning all firearms in the UK not designed for use in hunting. Gun-related deaths following passage of the legislature remained more or less consistent, but it's gun-related homicide per capita now falls near the bottom of reporting countries, and well below the United States.

    The United States has the twelfth highest rate (not number; rate) of gun-related homicides among reporting countries in the world. The countries above it are South Africa, the Phillipines, Mexico, Panama, Brazil, Colombia, Swaziland, Guatemala, Honduras, Jamaica and El Salvador. Many of those countries are marked by flourishing drug trades or are currently involved in civil wars. Some countries that fall below the U.S. on this list are also involved in civil wars.

    Japan has nearly zero gun availability. It also reports less than ten gun-related deaths a year on average. Gun violence has dissapated among yakuza (criminal syndicates) as well. Like the United States, Japan has high-population centers, income inequality and violent mainstream media. Less than ten gun-related deaths a year, even among organized criminal groups.

    Isreal and Switzerland, among the only developed nations to have laxer (only arguably) gun control that the United States are marked by either war of their own (Isreal) or a near lack of income inequality and a socialized infrastructure for providing mental health treatment (Switzerland). EDIT -- Also Switzerland's high gun-ownership rate is due to mandatory military service for young men, after which they keep their gun and equipment at home under certain regulations.

    Since the Columbine, there have been 31 school shootings in the United States and only 14 in the rest of the world combined. Nearly all the weapons were obtained legally. Here is a timeline.

    What are we doing?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, will someone please tell me why the United States should not restrict its gun legislation to ban at least semiautomatic weapons? Will someone please let me know why anyone needs any gun that could be used for anything other than sporting or is immobile and slow-firing enough to not be used outside of home protection? Can someone explain why we should not move to not only requiring criminal background checks in order to purchase firearms, but require psychological evaluations and months of review as well?

    Because crazies will be crazies. Today, the same day as a shooter in the U.S. killed 27 people with his legally purchased semiautomatic gun, a man weilding a kinfe attacked 22 in a school in Chengping, China.

    All of them survived.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Gun's for a long time have been known as the Great Equalizer, for those living in poor neighborhoods, for the rape victim walking alone at night, to the abuse victim that is on the run. Guns serve as a last resort to save them when seconds count and the police are minutes away. One clear example of this is the woman who shot a intruder in her house when he advanced on her and her children.
    How many of these guns include automatic/semi-automatic rifles?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    As I said before it makes you come off as merely having a wish to ban guns for the mere fact they are guns.
    Uh yeah, haha. Isn't that what this is about in the first place?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    Ok then, moving on. Have you acquainted yourself with this post yet?
    Yes I have, but if we let the opening post dictate all 20+ pages of debate, it would fizzle out pretty fast, plus I do not believe there is any board rule on going beyond the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    How many of these guns include automatic/semi-automatic rifles?
    Seeing how only 2 to 8 percent of all shootings overall deal with assault weapons I would say fairly few, but that is mainly because the percentage of overall shootings with such weapons is fairly few.

    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    Uh yeah, haha. Isn't that what this is about in the first place?
    If you glance back at the past few pages of posts, you will notice that the debate has been far more nuanced than that.
    Last edited by BigLutz; 13th January 2013 at 4:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Realistically you are unable to ban anything, the problem is that you continue to say that you wish to ban guns to prevent death, while not wanting to take proactive steps to address other large amounts of deaths. As I said before it makes you come off as merely having a wish to ban guns for the mere fact they are guns.
    If you hadn't cherry picked what I said you would have seen I already answered this. It is not that I'm unwilling, it's that going after them is ultimately pointless. It will lead nowhere. The same isn't true for gun regulation at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    If you hadn't cherry picked what I said you would have seen I already answered this. It is not that I'm unwilling, it's that going after them is ultimately pointless. It will lead nowhere. The same isn't true for gun regulation at this point.
    That we can agree on, it is fairly pointless to institute gun regulation or a ban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    That we can agree on, it is fairly pointless to institute gun regulation or a ban.
    Are you being purposely obtuse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterna View Post
    Are you being purposely obtuse?
    I am adding in the ban, of course we probably do not agree on the idea of a ban, but I think we can atleast agree on with so many guns out there, such a open border, and the pure illegality of it. It would be hard to enforce a ban. Would you agree on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Yes I have, but if we let the opening post dictate all 20+ pages of debate, it would fizzle out pretty fast, plus I do not believe there is any board rule on going beyond the first post.
    Oh, of course. There's only so much one topic can be discussed before it moves on to the next logical step. That's why I'm confused that you're discussing knife and car bans, rather than gun bans and regulations. What about the first post didn't convince you?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Seeing how only 2 to 8 percent of all shootings overall deal with assault weapons I would say fairly few, but that is mainly because the percentage of overall shootings with such weapons is fairly few.
    Alright, then do you have anything against banning automatic/semi-automatic rifles?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    Oh, of course. There's only so much one topic can be discussed before it moves on to the next logical step. That's why I'm confused that you're discussing knife and car bans, rather than gun bans and regulations. What about the first post didn't convince you?
    We are speaking of that as the next step beyond merely a gun ban. The logic being if you are going to ban guns merely on death, then you need to step up regulations and bans on the next most violent weapons out there to take a large swath out of the "preventable deaths" tally.

    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    Alright, then do you have anything against banning automatic/semi-automatic rifles?
    I hate to have something banned, especially since they have very little to do with overall gun crime, but I would say I wouldn't be upset about it. I think the big problem with these weapons is that they look like machine guns, and people buy them largely for the "cool" factor. If a ban passes or not ( And from the looks of it, it will not ), the issue needs to be taken up with the gun manufactures on why they are making guns that look like military weapons.

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    Why not instead of banning semi-automatic weapons (as blanket bans feel like an invasion of rights), more restrictions could be put into place. However, I don't like the idea of mental health screenings, as it just opens up a door to way too much that could lead to oppression. I have severe depression, but in no way have I ever been suicidal. Would I be allowed to get a small handgun to defend myself, as I live in a rural area and have already had firsthand experience with someone mentally unstable and I literally thought may have been a threat to my life? I'm not stable enough to even hold a job, yet I know I am stable enough to responsibly handle a gun.

    Anyway, sure, gun-related violence is a problem. However, banning guns will not solve the problem any more than prohibition made alcohol cease to exist. Rather, I think it would make things worse, as given how many criminals in the United States already have guns. If everyone has to give up their guns, then only the criminals will have them. If only the criminals have them, more innocent victims will suffer without that protection.

    There's also hunting, of course. Guns are extremely useful for that. As well as professional shooting tournaments. Arguably, the latter is questionable in any kind of importance, this is true, but the same could be said of any other sport, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    We are speaking of that as the next step beyond merely a gun ban. The logic being if you are going to ban guns merely on death, then you need to step up regulations and bans on the next most violent weapons out there to take a large swath out of the "preventable deaths" tally.
    Ok, lets start from the beginning then. Do you think the U.S. is currently in need of any firearm regulations whatsoever?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    I hate to have something banned, especially since they have very little to do with overall gun crime, but I would say I wouldn't be upset about it. I think the big problem with these weapons is that they look like machine guns, and people buy them largely for the "cool" factor. If a ban passes or not ( And from the looks of it, it will not ), the issue needs to be taken up with the gun manufactures on why they are making guns that look like military weapons.
    Mustard gas and pipe bombs have very little to do with overall crime and violence, but you don't seem to have a problem with a ban on those.

    How about limiting the use of assault rifles strictly to shooting ranges? You can still shoot an assault rifle, you just can't own one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman of Kairnestar View Post
    Why not instead of banning semi-automatic weapons (as blanket bans feel like an invasion of rights), more restrictions could be put into place.
    A blanket ban on semi-automatic weapons wasn't even a suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman of Kairnestar View Post
    However, I don't like the idea of mental health screenings, as it just opens up a door to way too much that could lead to oppression. I have severe depression, but in no way have I ever been suicidal. Would I be allowed to get a small handgun to defend myself, as I live in a rural area and have already had firsthand experience with someone mentally unstable and I literally thought may have been a threat to my life? I'm not stable enough to even hold a job, yet I know I am stable enough to responsibly handle a gun.
    Oh, well, if you say so. Here, have a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman of Kairnestar View Post
    Anyway, sure, gun-related violence is a problem. However, banning guns will not solve the problem any more than prohibition made alcohol cease to exist. Rather, I think it would make things worse, as given how many criminals in the United States already have guns. If everyone has to give up their guns, then only the criminals will have them. If only the criminals have them, more innocent victims will suffer without that protection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    Ok, lets start from the beginning then. Do you think the U.S. is currently in need of any firearm regulations whatsoever?
    Yes I do, I believe we need to work on keeping guns out of the hands of those with a history of criminal acts or mental instability.

    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    Mustard gas and pipe bombs have very little to do with overall crime and violence, but you don't seem to have a problem with a ban on those.
    Yet those can both be commonly made, you cannot easily make a automatic weapon yet, and we do not ban many of the materials used to create such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    How about limiting the use of assault rifles strictly to shooting ranges? You can still shoot an assault rifle, you just can't own one.
    May work, problem is many assault rifles are no different than your standard hunting rifle which no one would dare ban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarFreeJazz View Post
    The purpose is to reduce gun violence in the United States, not put an end to death. Stop trying to divert the focus of the debate. What critical purpose do guns serve to the greater public that we couldn't live without them?
    I'll address this post quickly and get right back to the debate afterward, since if anything is off topic, this post is.

    The one question asked in the first post is, 'What are we doing?'. Bear in mind that this question is extremely general and could cover a wide variety of subjects, not just limited to gun violence domestically versus gun violence internationally. If it was more specific, I would understand what you meant, but it isn't. And since debates center around answering the specific question asked, it makes sense for this topic that discussions happen regarding a variety of causes of deaths.


    That said, let's get back to the subject at hand.

    On this note, I present to you a segment I like to call: 'Here come the Executive Orders'.

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-weighing...-politics.html

    Thus far, he can only issue Executive Orders for certain aspects of what he wants to change (at least at a glance), but as we've seen before, he seems to have a knack for circumventing Congress on key issues.

    Can't say I didn't predict this.

    Since people seem to have a misconception about me, I'll say right now. I am against any President that tries to go against the Constitution. But the fact is, it happens all the time very subtly and most Americans either don't seem to notice, or they don't seem to care (often because it happens in the wake of a tragedy). But as I've said before, this is how it starts.
    Last edited by SBaby; 17th January 2013 at 7:19 PM.
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2478418.html
    Today New York State eneacts the strictest gun control laws in the nation, becoming the first state to increase its (already strict) gun control policy since the Newtown massacre.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2478418.html
    Today New York State eneacts the strictest gun control laws in the nation, becoming the first state to increase its (already strict) gun control policy since the Newtown massacre.
    Not surprised in the least that one of the most liberal states in the US is the first. Lets hope they are the last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    Not surprised in the least that one of the most liberal states in the US is the first. Lets hope they are the last.
    Probably won't be the last one. 11 other states have gun control measures proposed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
    Can't believe no one brought this up but here it goes. NRA's top lobbyist Wayne LaPierre made a speech as he called for armed police officers in every American school. He also blamed video games, movies, and music videos for the violent culture.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...ide=more270656
    And it looks like Obama was receptive to the idea as word is that it is one of the proposals he will put out today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    Probably won't be the last one. 11 other states have gun control measures proposed.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...eport/1834361/
    If you think about it, its a useless law. Magazines can be loaded and unloaded in about 2 seconds by a skilled shooter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    If you think about it, its a useless law. Magazines can be loaded and unloaded in about 2 seconds by a skilled shooter.
    You know, the magazine thing isn't the only part of the New York law. Anyway, I do agree, the magazine part is useless.
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    Here's Obama's 23 executive actions he signed recently:


    1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.

    2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.

    3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.

    4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.

    5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.

    6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.

    7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.

    8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).

    9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.

    10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.

    11. Nominate an ATF director.

    12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.

    13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.

    14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

    15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies

    16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.

    17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.

    18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.

    19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.

    20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.

    21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.

    22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.

    23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.

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    Some of those are really good and I do applaud Obama on it, the only one I have a problem with is this...

    "16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."

    Doctors already are having a MAJOR problem asking these stupid questions and dealing with the questionnaire in the Affordable Care Act, I have even talked to my own doctor about it and found out he is having problems with patients getting angry with how rigid it is and that they cannot deviate from the questions. Asking another non medical related question ontop of that seems as useless as it does stupid and will only hurt doctor/patient relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Some of those are really good and I do applaud Obama on it
    BigLutz APPLAUDING Obama on something? I never thought I'd see the day.

    Anyway, back on topic, it looks like even Chris Christie's been criticizing the NRA
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