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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

  1. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    Because he can totally do that. I mean, really, why would he? And what makes him think you will?
    Well, the guy DID shoot 20 children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    Anyone that is caught selling or in possession of one that is not registered faces a huge fine AND at least 5 years in prison.
    Wishful thinking indeed. Prisons are overcrowded as is, and people that sell illegal firearms especially if they are in the single or double digits are probably not going to see that kind of jail time. Courts want to go after the guys who have the big numbers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Elliot View Post
    Wishful thinking indeed. Prisons are overcrowded as is, and people that sell illegal firearms especially if they are in the single or double digits are probably not going to see that kind of jail time. Courts want to go after the guys who have the big numbers.
    Then give it some sort of tiered structure ending with anyone owning more than 10 gets charged with a capitol offense that is punishable by death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJPalmer85 View Post
    Then give it some sort of tiered structure ending with anyone owning more than 10 gets charged with a capitol offense that is punishable by death.
    You are kidding me right? You are talking about feeding, bathing, sheltering and clothing a prisoner for a death penalty sentence. So you are spending millions of dollars on this individual whose offense probably was only worth a few thousand.
    You are going to put this individual in prisons with rapists and murderers for simply possessing guns?
    What about first offenders automatic death penalty for possessing illegal guns?

    T.I. was brought up on federal weapons charges (after multiple incidents with the law) and that charge only held a max sentence of 10 years, which was reduced to a year and a day.

    I understand this is a personal issue for you but you have to have some rational thinking behind your stances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Elliot View Post
    You are kidding me right? You are talking about feeding, bathing, sheltering and clothing a prisoner for a death penalty sentence. So you are spending millions of dollars on this individual whose offense probably was only worth a few thousand.
    You are going to put this individual in prisons with rapists and murderers for simply possessing guns?
    What about first offenders automatic death penalty for possessing illegal guns?

    T.I. was brought up on federal weapons charges (after multiple incidents with the law) and that charge only held a max sentence of 10 years, which was reduced to a year and a day.

    I understand this is a personal issue for you but you have to have some rational thinking behind your stances.
    i know it is not rational and it will never happen, but some sort of extreme measures should be taken (obviously not the death penalty). I believe that the harder the government cracks down on something than the more it will help, not solve, but help at the very least

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Elliot View Post
    You are kidding me right? You are talking about feeding, bathing, sheltering and clothing a prisoner for a death penalty sentence. So you are spending millions of dollars on this individual whose offense probably was only worth a few thousand.
    You are going to put this individual in prisons with rapists and murderers for simply possessing guns?
    What about first offenders automatic death penalty for possessing illegal guns?

    T.I. was brought up on federal weapons charges (after multiple incidents with the law) and that charge only held a max sentence of 10 years, which was reduced to a year and a day.

    I understand this is a personal issue for you but you have to have some rational thinking behind your stances.
    Its not millions of dollars. Its 275k a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miles0624 View Post
    Its not millions of dollars. Its 275k a year.
    that needs to be a another thread or 2. What to do with the prison population and another one about the death penalty

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  8. #258
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    275k/year X minimum 25 year sentence= you do the math
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    Ok Here are some facts about the shooter:

    He tried to buy a gun from a retailer; they went to do a background check on him. He then told them to forget about and did not purcashe a firearm.
    He took one his mom's guns that she had collected to murder 22 people.
    His Mom had taken him out and TAUGHT him how to use a firearm!

    With this said what do we do?

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    Guys, please stay on-topic. This isn't the place to talk about prison or the death penalty, or to talk about talking about these and any other subjects not directly related to the thread topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by WildHennaCharizard View Post
    Ok Here are some facts about the shooter:

    He tried to buy a gun from a retailer; they went to do a background check on him. He then told them to forget about and did not purcashe a firearm.
    He took one his mom's guns that she had collected to murder 22 people.
    His Mom had taken him out and TAUGHT him how to use a firearm!

    With this said what do we do?
    Well, firstly having guns and children in the same building really isn't the best idea. After all, a three-year-old boy just shot himself with a family gun just this Monday, and that wasn't the only incident. Owning a gun makes even less sense for cases where mentally unstable people are in the same building as a gun. Teaching the mentally unstable how to shoot a gun is also not one of the wisest ideas I've ever heard. This article gives good insight into dealing with such children.

    Part of the answer to "what do we do now" could be related to mental health and dealing with mental health issues. But I also fail to see the harm in strengthening gun ownership laws in general if it could mean less lives being lost.

    I also don't come from a culture where guns have such a high status, so that prevents me from understanding why guns are so highly valued for others. I honestly just don't get it, and it confounds me that people are fine with risking so much for the right to own weapons capable of an unnecessary degree of destruction.

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    There is no reason for civilians/regular old joes to own an assault rifle. There just isn't.
    Gun control laws should have changed ages ago, but unfortunately it took the loss of all these children for everyone to realize that.

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    For those talking about banning assault weapons after this shooting it is worth to note that the gun used by Adam in this shooting would NOT have been affected by either the 1994 law, Connecticut law, or by the bill introduced by Feinstein a few months ago.

    http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/18/wo...ve-been-covere

    Thing is, even if the assault weapons ban had remained in place, Adam's mother would still own the gun
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    For those talking about banning assault weapons after this shooting it is worth to note that the gun used by Adam in this shooting would NOT have been affected by either the 1994 law, Connecticut law, or by the bill introduced by Feinstein a few months ago.

    http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/18/wo...ve-been-covere

    Thing is, even if the assault weapons ban had remained in place, Adam's mother would still own the gun
    Yeah sometimes it fails, but can you deny that if less assult rifles are on the streets there would be less murders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    Yeah sometimes it fails, but can you deny that if less assult rifles are on the streets there would be less murders.
    Really? Do we have some sudden rush of murders by assault weapons being used? Mind you gun violence is down despite the fact the assault weapon ban was lifted, and despite the fact there are more guns out in the hands of people than ever before. And let's not forget the massive number of stabbings that is happening in Britain right now that has a full gun ban.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Really? Do we have some sudden rush of murders by assault weapons being used? Mind you gun violence is down despite the fact the assault weapon ban was lifted, and despite the fact there are more guns out in the hands of people than ever before. And let's not forget the massive number of stabbings that is happening in Britain right now that has a full gun ban.
    From the info I got the murder rate with assault rifles has not changed much from 97

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebilly99 View Post
    From the info I got the murder rate with assault rifles has not changed much from 97
    Mind you there was a assault rifle ban in 1997, if the rate does not change then it seems that a ban will not change a thing does it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic View Post
    a family gun[/URL]Owning a gun makes even less sense for cases where mentally unstable people are in the same building as a gun. Teaching the mentally unstable how to shoot a gun is also not one of the wisest ideas I've ever heard. This article gives good insight into dealing with such children.

    Part of the answer to "what do we do now" could be related to mental health and dealing with mental health issues. But I also fail to see the harm in strengthening gun ownership laws in general if it could mean less lives being lost.
    Purely devil's advocate: How do you know that when he was taught how to shoot a gun, that he was diagnosed as having a mental health issue?

    Also I disagree with your sentiment that mental health needs to be expanded. INSURANCE needs to be expanded, everyone in the country needs to have the ability to obtain and maintain insurance.
    While I fortunately do not suffer from more debilitating mental health problem, I know my battles with ADHD have been a long, difficult and expensive road.
    In order to be recognized as officially having ADHD you have to go to a psychologist who runs a battery of tests, which at the very least can run a few thousand dollars.
    Then there are the doctor visits (which if you are lucky are only 4 times out of the year), then of course the medication. All of these which do not come cheap and even with insurance it can still be quite expensive. My meds with insurance cost me $60, which is for a 30 day supply and no refills. So every time I want a refill I have to set up an appointment to see my doctor.

    And that is if you are lucky to ONLY suffer from ADHD(which many times that is not the only mental health problem).
    My long drawn out point here is that YOU have to want to get help for these issues and even when you want to get help, you have to be able to afford the treatment.
    You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink, is my true point here. That you can have all the mental health initiatives but if you are a 20 year old male without insurance or doesn't believe he needs help you aren't going to take advantage of them.
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    I really don't understand why anyone would want to own a semiautomatic or automatic weapon in the first place. Anything other than what amounts to dick-waving contest purposes doesn't make sense. The idea of owning something with the express purpose of killing (usually people) actually kind of disgusts me. I'm totally for tighter gun laws and a ban on certain guns wouldn't bother me one bit. There is no reason to own most of these weapons. Hunting, I can understand. Personal protection*? I'm iffy about that. People don't get extensive training on how to use these weapons. It's easy to pay $60 and take the conceal carry class in most states (where it's legal) and get your permit. I bet half these people couldn't even hit the person attacking them so what's stopping them from hitting an innocent bystander?

    And while I completely agree that we need better mental health care in the U.S., I don't see it as being a practical solution to the recent gun massacres. Why? The U.S. government (on both a state and federal level) doesn't care about mental health. All you have to do is spend some time in a mental health facility (not necessarily as a patient) to see how many frequent fliers there are because they can't get the long-term help they need. I honestly can't see the government spending the time and/or money on mental health to stop crime. If they did, our prisons probably wouldn't be as overrun as they are, drug addiction wouldn't be as rampant, etc. Not to mention, I don't think they'd bother to get a very good psychologist/psychiatrist to evaluate people. I mean, when have you known the U.S. to go with the top-notch people over the cheapest professional? Just look at how many mental disorders (hey there, schizophrenia) in which the person is incredibly charming and manipulative and you'll see just how easy it would be for some of those people to pass a psychological evaluation done by someone who doesn't have the proper experience/knowledge. I just don't see it as a long-term (or even short-term, actually) means of fixing this problem, not with the way the U.S. society works.

    Furthermore, it's kind of interesting to me that people keep talking about how criminals will just keep getting illegal weapons anyway. I'm sure the gangbangers will still be out there buying their guns... But how many of these people are the ones shooting up schools and movie theaters? I may need to check back into things and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but in the cases of the past several shootings I've heard about, none of the killers had much of a criminal background (if any). So can we really say it's the criminals that cause these massacres? Serious question. I'm sure the gang members and big-time drug cartels are going to keep shooting... each other. I don't see any of them going into schools and killing dozens of small children. They'd gain nothing from that.

    Edit: *Just wanted to add that I meant personal protection against other humans. I know there has been mention of protection against animals and as someone who lives in a rural area, I get that. However, I don't see why you couldn't just use a hunting rifle for that.
    Last edited by Pesky Persian; 19th December 2012 at 2:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    Because he can totally do that. I mean, really, why would he? And what makes him think you will?
    http://news.yahoo.com/congressional-...-politics.html

    Now it's guns, mental health, and video games. This is how it starts.

    I'm not saying I'm for banning guns or anything. I'm simply making an observation.
    Last edited by SBaby; 19th December 2012 at 4:31 AM.
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    I think the fact that they want to drag video games into this proves that anyone who questions whether or not we can trust these people with legislation... might have a point. Didn't we have this argument ten years ago about media and end up in the area of "it doesn't hold that much sway"? In all, this sounds like more attempts to bully the "freak" cultures. cf. all the stories about boys/men in the 60s/70s being discriminated against for having long hair, the finger-pointing at Doom and Marilyn Manson following Columbine, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBaby View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/congressional-...-politics.html

    Now it's guns, mental health, and video games. This is how it starts.

    I'm not saying I'm for banning guns or anything. I'm simply making an observation.
    And nowhere in that article did it say Obama had any intentions of banning guns. You know increasing gun control =/= banning guns
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    I do agree that video games/music/movies are not the root cause of these children engaging in these violent acts, yet I do believe there is something to be said for the level of violence being romanticized in these mediums, and allowing children and young adults to be further desensitized to violence.
    Do most of us know that its just words in a song, pictures on a screen or pixels in a digital world? Yes.
    But just because you are an expert at Call of Duty, doesn't mean you are fully prepared to be shipped out to a war torn country and fully comprehend that kind of violence being played out in that kind of theater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlogiston View Post
    I think the fact that they want to drag video games into this proves that anyone who questions whether or not we can trust these people with legislation... might have a point. Didn't we have this argument ten years ago about media and end up in the area of "it doesn't hold that much sway"? In all, this sounds like more attempts to bully the "freak" cultures. cf. all the stories about boys/men in the 60s/70s being discriminated against for having long hair, the finger-pointing at Doom and Marilyn Manson following Columbine, etc.
    I was waiting for this to get dropped in and I agree. They have a legitimate problem and instead of trying to find the right solution they attack something that has nothing to do with the problem....

    I am guessing it is safe to assume that most (if not all) of the people on the forum play video games other than Pokemon. If any of you play AC, COD, Halo or any other violent game, are you inclined to do what you see in the games?

    I have been listening to Marilyn Manson for years, and while his lyrics are a little off at times, he and his band make great music. Same goes for Eminem, I am sure that everyone knows his story, his lyrics can be messed up and completely out there at times but he is still a great musician.

    Same goes for movies, none of us here are reenacting what is portrayed in the movies we have seen, admittedly I did try my hand at morphing after watching Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

    The mediums are not the problem, if they were there would be way more incidents than we have now that are linked to movie, music and VGs.

    It is people in power or with a voice that dont like these particular items that want to blame them for problems instead trying to find a real solution or even parents that are unwilling to admit that their kid has a problem and that it must be related to video games or music...blah blah blah

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Elliot View Post
    I do agree that video games/music/movies are not the root cause of these children engaging in these violent acts, yet I do believe there is something to be said for the level of violence being romanticized in these mediums, and allowing children and young adults to be further desensitized to violence.
    Do most of us know that its just words in a song, pictures on a screen or pixels in a digital world? Yes.
    But just because you are an expert at Call of Duty, doesn't mean you are fully prepared to be shipped out to a war torn country and fully comprehend that kind of violence being played out in that kind of theater.
    I honestly do not think that people are being all that desensitized. Ive watched/played these types of things for years and I have never been desensitized to them. Shooting someone in a video game or seeing some one shot in a movie is WAY different that seeing it in person. I can't tell you how much the two don't even compare.

    Maybe I am unique, but I do not think so.

    B

    EDIT: This article is interesting in that it claims that Lanza (CT shooter) planned his attack before hand and didn't "snap" like people are suggesting. The most interesting part is that a former psych profiler for the FBI says that people need to quit focusing on the mental health issues. Thoughts?
    Last edited by BJPalmer85; 19th December 2012 at 1:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emilyshortcake View Post
    There is no reason for civilians/regular old joes to own an assault rifle. There just isn't.
    Gun control laws should have changed ages ago, but unfortunately it took the loss of all these children for everyone to realize that.
    Semi-automatic rifle =/= assault rifle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    And nowhere in that article did it say Obama had any intentions of banning guns. You know increasing gun control =/= banning guns
    Again, I said I was simply making an observation based on the article. Read what I posted. And this article doesn't specifically say he's banning guns. But I'm telling you right now. This is how it starts. The fact that NRA guys are on board with this should be a pretty clear indication that peoples' stances on the issue are shifting.

    Anyway, I brought that article up because of the fact that they're bringing video games into the issue now, not because I thought it meant a ban on guns. You should know this if you read what I posted.
    Last edited by SBaby; 19th December 2012 at 10:17 PM.
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