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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manna View Post
    HOWEVER-
    Something needs to be done about the easy access of guns. It really should not be that easy to get one. And I hear this "oh well they'll just get them anyway lol". Okay? So that means we should just sit on our hands and do nothing? There's no reason why we can't make it harder for them to get.
    Agreed and I totally saw it coming. XD

    In anycase, any other direct solutions that come off of this?
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    Banning all guns is not the answer. Not only is it unfeasible, there's really no reason for it.

    What I support is simple. Restrict the sales of assault weapons and magazines with several dozen rounds in them, and put in place a better background check system. The debate goes on from there, but I think those are simple, reasonable steps most could agree on.

    I acknowledge that this would not have entirely stopped the horror of this shooting from occurring, because this shooter stole the weapons from his mother, who had them legally. But it would have at least helped keep the primary weapon used and the ability to open fire with little need to reload out of play. Simply reflexively responding to a single event like this would be a mistake when there are a number of larger issues at play here.

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    I think this gun control issue is blown out of proportion. First off all, if people strongly desire something, they're gonna get it, legal or not. Secondly, a gun isn't the only way a person can take someone's life away (blades, poisons, heck even a brick can kill if you try hard enough). Lastly, maybe people should focus on regulating ammunition instead of guns. A gun is practically useless without bullets. Hate to put that way, but that's what I think of this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    Can someone compare our system of gun regulation to another, perhaps more safe country? If not, then compare it too Britain...I'd kinda like to know.
    I'd just like to point out that the first post has links to details on both Britain and Japan's gun-control laws, as well as their results. There are several international gun-violence statistics linked there too. (Spoiler alert: Britain and Japan have a much, much lower rate of gun-violence than the U.S., along with just about every country not economically dependent on drug-running or embroiled in civil war.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kutie Pie
    Then again, you'll have people who'll lie about their mental health...
    Not just a self-report, though. An actual evaluation. It wouldn't catch everyone, but it could stop a lot.

    I'm glad to see nearly everyone in agreement. I'm fine with individuals owning guns -- a reasonable list of approved weapons for hunting or home-protection. However, we need to make the process of obtaining one as long, difficult and regulated as possible -- more of a privilege than a right.

    I think this gun control issue is blown out of proportion. First off all, if people strongly desire something, they're gonna get it, legal or not. Secondly, a gun isn't the only way a person can take someone's life away (blades, poisons, heck even a brick can kill if you try hard enough). Lastly, maybe people should focus on regulating ammunition instead of guns. A gun is practically useless without bullets. Hate to put that way, but that's what I think of this issue.
    Man, I hate this argument.

    Like, you can say that, right? But it ignores so many things we know about the motives of these public attackers, and ignores the statistics of the U.S.'s 31 mass shootings in the last twenty-some years compared to the rest of the world's combined 14. I think there's much more credence to the theory that we see a trend of people's violent fantasies being enabled by easy access to guns (whether their own or a parent's). A waiting period, a lack of legal availability, etc, may give them the time to rethink the attack, or to be identified as needing help. At worst, we may see more violent attacks in the vein of China's knifing, which, I don't know about you, but based on the survival rate, is a very preferable alternative.

    Which, by the way, covers my other hated argument: You can kill someone with almost anything; should we ban those too? No, because nothing is as effective at killing a room full of people as a semiautomatic weapon, and nearly everything you've listed has a separate practical use. If violent psychopaths will be violent psychopaths, let's at least remove their most effective tools.

    And re: Restricting ammo. I'm all for that. It's a decent first step. I believe Canada has some sort of law where ordering ammo requires a current license, a nearly month-long waiting period and mandatory safety training. That's absolutely a good idea.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 2:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    What are we doing?
    You're politicising an issue (this post originally having been written on the day of the shootings) which is far more complex than "some guy killed 20 today". You wished to do so while the bodies were still warm.

    Shame on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the first post has links to details on both Britain and Japan's gun-control laws, as well as their results. There are several international gun-violence statistics linked there too. (Spoiler alert: Britain and Japan have a much, much lower rate of gun-violence than the U.S., along with just about every country not economically dependent on drug-running or embroiled in civil war.)
    Japan and Britain are also island nations that do not share a massive border that is largely dominated by illegal trade..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    Not just a self-report, though. An actual evaluation. It wouldn't catch everyone, but it could stop a lot.

    I'm glad to see nearly everyone in agreement. I'm fine with individuals owning guns -- a reasonable list of approved weapons for hunting or home-protection. However, we need to make the process of obtaining one as long, difficult and regulated as possible -- more of a privilege than a right.
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test. Because as had happened with this shooting, merely having laws preventing these people from buying guns will only cause them to get them through the black market or to merely steal them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the first post has links to details on both Britain and Japan's gun-control laws, as well as their results. There are several international gun-violence statistics linked there too. (Spoiler alert: Britain and Japan have a much, much lower rate of gun-violence than the U.S., along with just about every country not economically dependent on drug-running or embroiled in civil war.)
    I edited my post to say that I noticed about a minute afterwards. ._....
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
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    Okay, everybody needs to stop mentioning assault rifles. It is illegal to carry a FULLY AUTOMATIC assault rifle. If fully auto ones were legal, so much more people can die since if you just have to hold down the trigger, spraying would be a lot easier. It is, however, legal to own a semi-automatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test. Because as had happened with this shooting, merely having laws preventing these people from buying guns will only cause them to get them through the black market or to merely steal them.
    I agree; we should be doing more to support individuals with mental health issues.

    Too bad Republicans cut funding for their support at every turn.


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    @BigLutz 1) Never gonna happen cos we have strict gun laws and stupidity isn't part of our constitution. 2) You completely missed my point. Concealed gun laws are completely irrelevant cos whether the gun is hidden under a shirt or in a purse once it has been pulled out -the attacker will react faster because of experience and because their gun is already loaded. Leaving the victim a sitting duck. 3) As the first post shows many guns that are used in school shootings etc were bought legally. Besides the issue of legality doesn't hide the fact that guns were conceived to be used as weapons -no matter how much Americans like to paint a more rosey picture. There's nothing rosey about the deaths of 20 innocent young people.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 17th December 2012 at 2:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test.
    I wouldn't place this as the sole priority but this is a suggestion worth considering and discussing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    I agree; we should be doing more to support individuals with mental health issues.

    Too bad Republicans cut funding for their support at every turn.
    Oh, yeah. Democrats (the ones pushing america towards socialism) are the white knights. You know the answer is not always blaming the other party.

    back on topic. Somehow I knew the outcry for gun control would get louder after this. Gun control would not have stopped this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid87 View Post
    I agree; we should be doing more to support individuals with mental health issues.
    I see that as much more of a long term solution. And we also need stats on just how many people who killed have mental problems, just to be safe that we know what we're doing. Not saying its not worth doing though. :P

    Putting a restriction tends to ease it up on some people, and likely we would see a result a bit quicker. Obviously though gun control by itself doesn't mean crap if it doesn't end up working.
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    I see that as much more of a long term solution. And we also need stats on just how many people who killed have mental problems, just to be safe that we know what we're doing. Not saying its not worth doing though. :P

    Putting a restriction tends to ease it up on some people, and likely we would see a result a bit quicker. Obviously though gun control by itself doesn't mean crap if it doesn't end up working.
    All gun control would do is make it harder for law abiding citizens to get guns. You take away our guns, a massive, thriving black market will spring up. Gun control is an illusion.

    Keep your hands off my 2nd amendment rights government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    All gun control would do is make it harder for law abiding citizens to get guns. You take away our guns, a massive, thriving black market will spring up. Gun control is an illusion.

    Keep your hands off my 2nd amendment rights government.
    Thats when you entirely ban it like we did with alcohol back during prohibition. We're not entirly banning it. ._.

    To be frank, I'm not for no access to guns. But restricting it is for security reasons is very much something that can be done.
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    You're politicising an issue (this post originally having been written on the day of the shootings) which is far more complex than "some guy killed 20 today". You wished to do so while the bodies were still warm.

    Shame on you.
    No.

    Do you want to know why the country (my country, the United States, where you don't live) exploded with gun control talks Friday? Because after more than three mass shootings in less than six months, because after we witnessed a horrible tragedy no one wants to see again, the only thing to do is to ask why it happened and what can be done to prevent it in the future.

    Ezra Klein said it well in a Friday piece for the Washington Post: "Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. 'Too soon,' howl supporters of loose gun laws. But as others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t 'too soon.' It’s much too late."

    At any rate, it's Sunday now. Do you feel like continuing to be pedantic and contribute nothing to a discussion about another country's problems, or do you want to actually engage in some legitimate discourse?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz
    How about working instead to help those with Mental Health problems, I mean I think we all agree they shouldn't hold guns but we may be needing to work on reporting and helping those with troubled behavior from early on and maybe placing them on a "No Fly" list for guns in which they can only obtain them after a certified test. Because as had happened with this shooting, merely having laws preventing these people from buying guns will only cause them to get them through the black market or to merely steal them.
    Why does working to help those with mental health problems have to be an "instead?" Improving mental health support and decreasing easy access to guns aren't mutually exclusive, and it's obvious they're both huge parts of the problem.

    However, gun legislation is more immediate, both in terms of feasibility and safety. So that's where you see a lot of discussion right now. It's not THE fix -- it's just the most pertinent and the most, to some degree, achievable.

    You're right that there are always other ways for even "no fly" individuals to obtain them, but why shouldn't we make it more difficult? And not just for them, but for everyone, to reduce saturation.

    And I want to be clear right now: This is not an indictment of gun-owners or hobbyists. This is not a cry to ban guns entirely. This is, however, a debate about whether substantially increased gun control would limit gun-related homicide and mass shootings, which every piece of statistical evidence seems to suggest is true.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 3:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    Keep your hands off my 2nd amendment rights government.
    Well technically,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmical El Amarna View Post
    What the second amendment says about 'gun ownership' was written nearly a century before the first semi- automatic weapon was made and before anyone even had the conception that a fully-automatic rifle with 20+ pieces of death in it would be purchasable by pretty much any adult.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    Key word here being Militia. Rarely do you see people buying and amassing weapons for non military and non police groups to keep their communities safe. What we do see instead is that mostly every time it is individuals buying and using weapons. Another key word here also would be regulated. Its referring to groups and organizations, not just people as in anybody and everybody. The second amendment almost never, ever applies when talking about gun use or ownership by individuals. It applies only when talking about individuals within an organized militia owning weapons.
    Last edited by Cosmical El Amarna; 17th December 2012 at 3:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmphaticPikachu View Post
    Thats when you entirely ban it like we did with alcohol back during prohibition. We're not entirly banning it. ._.

    To be frank, I'm not for no access to guns. But restricting it is for security reasons is very much something that can be done.
    If you are going to restrict it, force more gun safety protocols, stringent background checks, etc before you allow someone to purchase guns. But again, that won't do any good for people who don't abide by the law. Like I said, gun control is an illusion. it would not work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    If you are going to restrict it, force more gun safety protocols, stringent background checks, etc before you allow someone to purchase guns. But again, that won't do any good for people who don't abide by the law. Like I said, gun control is an illusion. it would not work
    Not entirly an illusion. My gosh, if you think about it, SO many things could be done in the world that have laws for them. The difference is how hard it is to get them, and the consequences waiting for them. Thats what effects their thought process. If they already didn't care about the fact they're gonna die or something afterwards, or that its THAT hard to get a gun, then they're gonna get one anyway.

    We're trying to lessen the problem here. Its obvious that stricter gun control laws have worked other places. So there's validity to the thought AT LEAST am I right?
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Which is going to be rather obsolete in about 20 years from now when you have wide spread 3D printers that can print out guns.
    you're aware people can build guns even without the advent of your Star Trek replicators right
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    Like I said, gun control is an illusion. it would not work.
    Why has it statistically correlated with lower gun-related homicide rates and fewer mass shootings worldwide then?

    Guys, if you feel like you really have a differing opinion to contribute, please do. But if you're just going to be contradictory and not even respond to the links in the first post, don't bother. I don't want to keep responding to the same cliche arguments with the same pieces of evidence over and over again, but I will.

    Your opinion has been noted and addressed in the opening post. Please read and educate yourself, and come back if you still think you have something new to say.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 3:21 AM.

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    So

    How about both a ban on semi-automatics

    and make it more difficult for people with mental health problems to obtain guns

    I doubt anyone here thinks either of these two ideas would increase shootings, would they? Ineffective, maybe, but not outright negative.

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    (Might as well talk about US's approach to mental health issues, which is basically drugging people and hope it works...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacho View Post
    (Might as well talk about US's approach to mental health issues, which is basically drugging people and hope it works...)
    ...that is a very interesting subject.

    do elaborate.

    I'm curious.
    When refering to learning..."In other words, groups are not where ideas are born. Groups are where ideas are evaluated."
    My eyes! (my eyes!) are filled with curiosity! You think! (You think!) that you have power over me! In this life! (This life!) There’s no room for you and me! So turn around and face the day with me!
    Such a sexy song. Urgh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    @BigLutz 1) Never gonna happen cos we have strict gun laws and stupidity isn't part of our constitution.
    And how will either of those prevent a person from making a gun through a 3D printer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    2) You completely missed my point. Concealed gun laws are completely irrelevant cos whether the gun is hidden under a shirt or in a purse once it has been pulled out -the attacker will react faster because of experience and because their gun is already loaded. Leaving the victim a sitting duck.
    A: The attacker cannot focus in 360 degrees, he or she has no idea where the Concealed Gun is. B: Concealed Guns are already loaded. C: Those taking Concealed Gun classes are trained on how to shoot them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless123 View Post
    3) As the first post shows many guns that are used in school shootings etc were bought legally. Besides the issue of legality doesn't hide the fact that guns were conceived to be used as weapons -no matter how much Americans like to paint a more rosey picture. There's nothing rosey about the deaths of 20 innocent young people.
    No there isn't, but nor is there anything rosey about banning guns under the law while allowing a black market of guns to thrive.

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