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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

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    BigLutz, do you have an argument that doesn't involve the phrase "3D printer," or are the facts that substantial change is needed actually so clear by now that even you can only disagree in increments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacho View Post
    (Might as well talk about US's approach to mental health issues, which is basically drugging people and hope it works...)
    Sure, we can talk about that too, but I'd prefer it not take up too much space here. As I said last page, it's not a mutually exclusive issue. We can improve gun control and mental health support. But right now we (and most of the country) are discussing gun control because it should be the most immediate concern for reasons I expressed one page back.

    That said, there's plenty of excellent talk all over the Internet now about how we treat our mentally ill and how we provide preventative care as well.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 3:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    BigLutz, do you have an argument that doesn't involve the phrase "3D printer," or are the facts that substantial change is needed actually so clear by now that even you can only disagree in increments?
    It is something that needs to be addressed as a functional gun has been created. But for the U.S. we can also focus on the fact we have a massive open border that has facilitated in the transportation of illegal goods for the last century. Banning drugs did not stop the black market, banning alcohol did not stop the black market. How are guns any bit different?

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    but seriously, to the people saying this isn't the right time to discuss gun control: when is? three weeks after the media circus dies down and nobody cares anymore? the days before the shooting when it didn't cross anyone's mind because there were no bodies with bullets in them? pray tell, were we one day away from sitting down and talking about the state of guns in America and now this shooter's restarted the fictitious clock you've installed to avoid having to take responsibility for the lack of proper gun control? i'm seriously interested in knowing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    No.

    Do you want to know why the country (my country, the United States, where you don't live) exploded with gun control talks Friday? Because after more than three mass shootings in less than six months, because after we witnessed a horrible tragedy no one wants to see again, the only thing to do is to ask why it happened and what can be done to prevent it in the future.

    Ezra Klein said it well in a Friday piece for the Washington Post: "Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. 'Too soon,' howl supporters of loose gun laws. But as others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t 'too soon.' It’s much too late."

    At any rate, it's Sunday now. Do you feel like continuing to be pedantic and contribute nothing to a discussion about another country's problems, or do you want to actually engage in some legitimate discourse?
    It wasn't when you posted.

    I don't think that pointing out the fact you are using the very recent (as in, when you posted the initial post of the thread less than 24 hours after they had died) deaths of 20 children to promote your cause is contributing nothing. In all honesty, I condemn everyone who has posted to argue either side of the argument in this case. It's nothing short of disgusting. I don't even think these children have had a funeral yet, but it's you who have sought to use their deaths at a time of heightened emotions to simplify a complex issue. You bear the brunt of criticism.

    I don't say this to argue either side of the debate.

    It wouldn't have taken much restraint for everyone in this thread who has sought to make arguments about the rights and wrongs of gun control in the light of events to wait a week or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cifala View Post


    but seriously, to the people saying this isn't the right time to discuss gun control: when is? three weeks after the media circus dies down and nobody cares anymore? the days before the shooting when it didn't cross anyone's mind because there were no bodies with bullets in them? pray tell, were we one day away from sitting down and talking about the state of guns in America and now this shooter's restarted the fictitious clock you've installed to avoid having to take responsibility for the lack of proper gun control? i'm seriously interested in knowing.
    ...I would agree with this. WHen is the right time?

    Granted I understand that there are many things going on, but to be quite frank we procrastinate on a lot of problems. Throwing them away and ignoring them. Prioritizing is a good thing, yet continuing to prioritize when we aren't getting crap done just leads to a standstill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    It wasn't when you posted.

    I don't think that pointing out the fact you are using the very recent (as in, when you posted the initial post of the thread less than 24 hours after they had died) deaths of 20 children to promote your cause is contributing nothing. In all honesty, I condemn everyone who has posted to argue either side of the argument in this case. It's nothing short of disgusting. I don't even think these children have had a funeral yet, but it's you who have sought to use their deaths at a time of heightened emotions to simplify a complex issue. You bear the brunt of criticism.

    I don't say this to argue either side of the debate.

    It wouldn't have taken much restraint for everyone in this thread who has sought to make arguments about the rights and wrongs of gun control in the light of events to wait a week or so.
    When no one cares anymore? Cool.

    Yup. Let's just sit here and do nothing and wait till the next mass shooting occurs. Yahoo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cifala View Post
    but seriously, to the people saying this isn't the right time to discuss gun control: when is? three weeks after the media circus dies down and nobody cares anymore? the days before the shooting when it didn't cross anyone's mind because there were no bodies with bullets in them? pray tell, were we one day away from sitting down and talking about the state of guns in America and now this shooter's restarted the fictitious clock you've installed to avoid having to take responsibility for the lack of proper gun control? i'm seriously interested in knowing.
    Should we not talk about Gun Control when having such laws would prevent the shooting? The guy stole the guns from his mom, some one who by all accounts would legally be allowed to own such guns. Tacking gun control blindly to every shooting even when any change would not have stopped it, does a disservice to the real issue we should be looking at: How to help the Mentally Ill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    It wasn't when you posted.

    I don't think that pointing out the fact you are using the very recent (as in, when you posted the initial post of the thread less than 24 hours after they had died) deaths of 20 children to promote your cause is contributing nothing. In all honesty, I condemn everyone who has posted to argue either side of the argument in this case. It's nothing short of disgusting. I don't even think these children have had a funeral yet, but it's you who have sought to use their deaths at a time of heightened emotions to simplify a complex issue. You bear the brunt of criticism.

    I don't say this to argue either side of the debate.

    It wouldn't have taken much restraint for everyone in this thread who has sought to make arguments about the rights and wrongs of gun control in the light of events to wait a week or so.
    In light of the above post, I have to say that I at least believe that I'm arguing here because I believe it will help them ._...I'm a 17 year old with no party affilation yet, I'm doing it because I believe it will help them more in the long run then just moruning the deaths. And what Cifala and Manna says is true...when is? Once the emotion dies down, no one pushes anymore. Think of my actions as you will, but don't tell me I'm doing this to support a party or goal for myself or my friends. I'm doing it to hopefully prevent the problems or lessen them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    I don't think that pointing out the fact you are using the very recent (as in, when you posted the initial post of the thread less than 24 hours after they had died) deaths of 20 children to promote your cause is contributing nothing. In all honesty, I condemn everyone who has posted to argue either side of the argument in this case. It's nothing short of disgusting. I don't even think these children have had a funeral yet, but it's you who have sought to use their deaths at a time of heightened emotions to simplify a complex issue. You bear the brunt of criticism.

    It wouldn't have taken much restraint for everyone in this thread who has sought to make arguments about the rights and wrongs of gun control in the light of events to wait a week or so.
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    I'm not responding to this again.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 3:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    It wasn't when you posted.

    I don't think that pointing out the fact you are using the very recent (as in, when you posted the initial post of the thread less than 24 hours after they had died) deaths of 20 children to promote your cause is contributing nothing. In all honesty, I condemn everyone who has posted to argue either side of the argument in this case. It's nothing short of disgusting. I don't even think these children have had a funeral yet, but it's you who have sought to use their deaths at a time of heightened emotions to simplify a complex issue. You bear the brunt of criticism.

    I don't say this to argue either side of the debate.

    It wouldn't have taken much restraint for everyone in this thread who has sought to make arguments about the rights and wrongs of gun control in the light of events to wait a week or so.
    You know, part of me would have agreed with you if it wasn't for the fact that we would use the exact same argument for the Aurora shooting. I'm all for respect for the victims involved, but it's just from my experiences that if we don't discuss it when it happens and say that we'll "put it off a week" or whathaveyou, that we never actually get around to discussing it at all. I think that America is starting to understand that this discussion should have happened a long time ago, and while the timing is quite unfortunate for the victims involved, it's also because of the gravity of the situation that people are finally understanding that this is a situation that needs to be adressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    It is something that needs to be addressed as a functional gun has been created. But for the U.S. we can also focus on the fact we have a massive open border that has facilitated in the transportation of illegal goods for the last century. Banning drugs did not stop the black market, banning alcohol did not stop the black market. How are guns any bit different?
    3D printers aren't widespread and certainly not in the capacity to make a functioning gun yet, so the law would still work for now, at least.

    And it won't stop the black market, but it will certainly do a lot to stop mass shootings like we've seen twice this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorunt conservationist View Post
    I don't say this to argue either side of the debate.
    then why are you posting?

    it's obvious you're using Cipher's thread as an outlet to "shame" him or anyone that agrees with him and/or shut down any challenging discussion against your precious assault rifles

    what we're talking about is whether or not the right to own a gun, which has been used in three separate instances in the past week to kill indiscriminately, is a right on par with that of free speech or legal counsel. if you can't handle that without trying to cast anyone willing to discuss this as some kind of sick villain (you're even worse by the way for using their deaths and the cause of such as something to personally attack someone with) you should probably exit the thread. no one cares to read your pointless moral high horsing so quit while you're ahead.
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    If a levee breaks and floods half the town, are we going to wait a week or so before talking about the levee?

    If you demand the right to the 2nd Amendment, am I not allowed the right to the 1st?

    If a restriction could reduce the number of terrible incidents, but not completely eliminate them, isn't it still worth it?

    (IIRC, a full functioning gun has yet to be created with a 3D printer, only a part or two. The 3D printer is still too far off a device to consider seriously at the present time.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Un0va View Post
    3D printers aren't widespread and certainly not in the capacity to make a functioning gun yet, so the law would still work for now, at least.
    For now, in ten years? Twenty? We cannot bury our head into the sand and say "Hey this will never happen" By the way they have already made functioning guns

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...3d-printed-gun

    http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/12/06/3...es-six-rounds/

    Quote Originally Posted by Un0va View Post
    And it won't stop the black market, but it will certainly do a lot to stop mass shootings like we've seen twice this year.
    Really? The latest one revolved around the guy STEALING his parents gun after being turned down from trying to buy one legally. If he was willing to do that, do you think he wouldn't go to buy one behind a 7/11?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Should we not talk about Gun Control when having such laws would prevent the shooting? The guy stole the guns from his mom, some one who by all accounts would legally be allowed to own such guns. Tacking gun control blindly to every shooting even when any change would not have stopped it, does a disservice to the real issue we should be looking at: How to help the Mentally Ill
    the idea of stricter gun laws is to have less guns for the mentally unstable to access. frankly I don't care if the mother had the legal right to own a gun - you can't justify to me giving the average jane access to assault weapons that can be easily taken by a mentally unstable psychopath
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    Look, the last time people said this was two days ago, when that guy shot up a shopping mall in Oregon. The last time before that was last month, when a man opened fire in a shopping mall outside Milwaukee. Time before that? a month earlier, in Minneapolis. Five dead. A month before that, the Oak Creek Gurdwara massacre. A month before that, James Holmes at The Dark Knight. The last four months alone have been marked by unspeakable violence. And each time we were told, "stop using this tragedy. It's not the right time."

    When is the right time? This is not trying to "push one's views." This is responding to a national tragedy in the only way that we, as horrified bystanders, should: by asking ourselves, how do we fix this? It was a mass murder. I've been crying for three hours straight. I can't imagine how those parents feel right now. And while they mourn, it's time for the rest of us to stand up for them, for the victims in the past, and for potential victims in the future.

    This is not a silly political issue. This is not some talking heads arguing on a 24-hour news channel. These are the bodies of children being carried out of what should be a safe place, and enough is enough. Now, while we are filled with sadness and anger, now is the time to stand up. Before we forget again, and before the next one happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cifala View Post
    the idea of stricter gun laws is to have less guns for the mentally unstable to access. frankly I don't care if the mother had the legal right to own a gun - you can't justify to me giving the average jane access to assault weapons that can be easily taken by a mentally unstable psychopath
    And if he had stolen the guns from his next door neighbor would you support taking away the guns from anyone living in the vicinity of someone deemed "Mentally unstable"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Really? The latest one revolved around the guy STEALING his parents gun after being turned down from trying to buy one legally. If he was willing to do that, do you think he wouldn't go to buy one behind a 7/11?
    This is stupid. Do you honestly not believe that having to make underworld connections "behind a 7/11" is not a bigger deterrent than having them in your own family home? Do you think it wouldn't cut down on all the non-mass shooting homicides? (Escalated arguments, muggings, accidents?)

    Even if it weren't, you're hypothesizing. We have evidence that shows a direct correlation between tighter gun control and decreased shootings worldwide. Address that or you're not addressing anything at all. Your best response this whole thread was the one in which you acknowledged black-market accessibility differences between Japan, the UK and the United States (although that still doesn't present a compelling counter-argument to following the precedent set by the statistics).

    We can hem and haw all day, but do you think imposing tighter restrictions in even the smallest amount would have a negative impact in terms of safety? The only evidence we have says it wouldn't.
    Last edited by Cipher; 17th December 2012 at 4:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    And if he had stolen the guns from his next door neighbor would you support taking away the guns from anyone living in the vicinity of someone deemed "Mentally unstable"?
    yeah, i actually support taking away guns from everyone who doesn't have a need related to the kind of work too btw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    This is stupid. Do you honestly not believe that having to make underworld connections "behind a 7/11" is not a bigger deterrent than having them in your own family home? Do you think it wouldn't cut down on all the non-mass shooting homicides? (Escalated arguments, muggings, accidents?)
    If some one is willing to go to such extremes why would they give up on their homicidal plans just because they have to go buy a handgun in the same way some one goes to buy some weed or meth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    Even if it weren't, you're hypothesizing. We have evidence that shows a direct correlation between tighter gun control and decreased shootings worldwide. Address that or you're not addressing anything at all. Your best response this whole thread was the one in which you acknowledged black-market accessibility differences between Japan, the UK and the United States (although that still doesn't present a compelling counter-argument to following the precedent set by the statistics).
    How many of those countries have a massive open border with a country willing to supply illegal products? Answer that? You can throw what ever statistic out however the fact is that when the U.S. has tried to ban something those that want to get it have found a willing and waiting black market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    We can hem and haw all day, but do you think imposing tighter restrictions in even the smallest amount would have a negative impact in terms of safety? The only evidence we have says it wouldn't.
    I never said it wouldn't however I believe there comes a tipping point in which you create a active black market. Mind you this state has some of the tightest gun regulations in the nation and the shooter was not able to legally obtain guns, so he sought them illegally. That alone should prove my point that tightening restrictions will not stop psychopaths from finding a way to obtain firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cifala
    yeah, i actually support taking away guns from everyone who doesn't have a need related to the kind of work too btw
    And you will take the guns out of the hands of the law abiding citizens and create a black market of untraceable guns making it much harder to trace them in a shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    For now, in ten years? Twenty? We cannot bury our head into the sand and say "Hey this will never happen" By the way they have already made functioning guns

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...3d-printed-gun

    http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/12/06/3...es-six-rounds/
    The first one was only partially 3D printed, and the second fired several rounds and then fell apart.

    Oh, man, a gun where you can shoot six rounds before it breaks. Guess if people can make those bad boys, we shouldn't ban guns at all.

    Really? The latest one revolved around the guy STEALING his parents gun after being turned down from trying to buy one legally. If he was willing to do that, do you think he wouldn't go to buy one behind a 7/11?
    It's still harder to track someone down that sells guns in the first place, and I'm pretty sure it's a hell of a lot easier to steal a gun from your mom than to buy one from some shady underworld guy.

    What good could actually come of letting an average person have a semi-automatic weapon just laying around their house?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    How many of those countries have a massive open border with a country willing to supply illegal products? Answer that? You can throw what ever statistic out however the fact is that when the U.S. has tried to ban something those that want to get it have found a willing and waiting black market.
    hi,

    I'm from Canada

    we don't have nearly as much mass-murder caused by guns up here

    we have "a massive open border with a country willing to supply illegal products"

    we also have far stricter laws regulating the use and sale of firearms to the general population

    hope this helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Un0va View Post
    The first one was only partially 3D printed, and the second fired several rounds and then fell apart.

    Oh, man, a gun where you can shoot six rounds before it breaks. Guess if people can make those bad boys, we shouldn't ban guns at all.
    Yeah because obviously they will not improve on their design...

    Quote Originally Posted by Un0va View Post
    It's still harder to track someone down that sells guns in the first place, and I'm pretty sure it's a hell of a lot easier to steal a gun from your mom than to buy one from some shady underworld guy.
    If it is is hard to get something from a shady underworld guy then our drug problem should go away right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Un0va View Post
    What good could actually come of letting an average person have a semi-automatic weapon just laying around their house?
    If they are going to own it in a legal and responsible way why shouldn't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cifala
    hi,

    I'm from Canada

    we don't have nearly as much mass-murder caused by guns up here

    we have "a massive open border with a country willing to supply illegal products"

    we also have far stricter laws regulating the use and sale of firearms to the general population

    hope this helps.
    You are comparing the Canadian border with the one to Mexico? REALLY? Last time I checked massive cartels do not run unrestricted and control actual towns around the Canadian border to transport illegal materials in.

    Try Again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Yeah because obviously they will not improve on their design...
    And even then it'll still be a while before they get into the hands of the public.

    If it is is hard to get something from a shady underworld guy then our drug problem should go away right?
    I said it was hard, not impossible. It would be a hell of a lot easier to get drugs if they were available to purchase legally.

    If they are going to own it in a legal and responsible way why shouldn't they?
    Because it allows shootings like this to happen much more easily and the average citizen isn't going to be using it anyway.

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    You are comparing the Canadian border with the one to Mexico? REALLY? Last time I checked massive cartels do not run unrestricted and control actual towns around the Canadian border to transport illegal materials in.

    Try Again.
    you're the one using a kind of logic that implies even one less death caused by a gun isn't worth tightening up gun laws

    but uh, thanks for saying we should be completely passive regarding your countrymen's access through our borders!
    Last edited by Cifala; 17th December 2012 at 4:12 AM.
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