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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7 tyranitars View Post
    Al qaeda has (symphatising) people everywhere and in every country. It is rediculous to say they just come from Mexico. Some of them might even be people living in the US for their entire life.
    There is a massive difference between sympathizers and actually trained operatives. For al Qaeda it is much easier to get a trained terrorist cell that has been planning a complex attack with al Qaeda in Pakistan, over the Mexican border. Than it is having them come in through immigration and possibly have the whole cell captured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul
    However, that would be an exaggeration to use that to justify in halting immigration reform and the GOP can't alienate the minority bases any further. It's not worth doing that and you know it.
    What is worth halting ILLEGAL immigration reform, would be to have goals in place resulting in the capture of 90 to 100% of all illegals crossing the border before we even start amnesty. But honestly I cannot get why minorities are actually supportive of those that cross the border to break our laws. It would be like the Italians being supportive of the mafia in the 50s. It just gives the Hispanic community a bad name.

    Either way this side discussion as a whole is off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul
    And that's just it, money talks.
    You mean Corruption talks. That is what the goal of the Pro Gun lobby spokesman was.
    Last edited by BigLutz; 18th April 2013 at 11:49 PM.
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    It always amuses me when people scream about the NRA funding things, but it's great for Bloomberg and the Brady Campaign to pour their money into their ads.
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    I'm probably going to regret wading into this issue, but there's a question I want to put out there that has nothing to do with any particular bill or vote.

    I have seen quite a few people saying the solution is to 'deal with mental illness.' I would like to hear someone here describe in detail what a proposal/bill/whatever doing that would look like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Butler View Post
    I'm probably going to regret wading into this issue, but there's a question I want to put out there that has nothing to do with any particular bill or vote.

    I have seen quite a few people saying the solution is to 'deal with mental illness.' I would like to hear someone here describe in detail what a proposal/bill/whatever doing that would look like.
    it means "don't sell guns to people who have been diagnosed with some form of mental illness that results in instability"
    Last edited by moot; 19th April 2013 at 2:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Butler View Post
    I'm probably going to regret wading into this issue, but there's a question I want to put out there that has nothing to do with any particular bill or vote.

    I have seen quite a few people saying the solution is to 'deal with mental illness.' I would like to hear someone here describe in detail what a proposal/bill/whatever doing that would look like.
    Have mental health screenings in schools for students every 3 years, you can run it in the counselor's office and have it staggered to avoid having a glut of students. If the student shows signs of emotional problems they are moved on to get greater help, if that person thinks the person is a danger to his or herself or others, greater treatment can be recommended including seeking court ordered involuntary inpatient therapy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Have mental health screenings in schools for students every 3 years, you can run it in the counselor's office and have it staggered to avoid having a glut of students. If the student shows signs of emotional problems they are moved on to get greater help, if that person thinks the person is a danger to his or herself or others, greater treatment can be recommended including seeking court ordered involuntary inpatient therapy.
    So what's stopping some counselor with an axe to grind against a certain student or students from exaggerating the symptoms of said student or students, thus making their life a living hell and robbing them of their rights? And you do realize this would probably require the formation of a database of the mentally ill, further stigmatizing them within society, correct?

    And how exactly do you suggest this get paid for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Butler View Post
    So what's stopping some counselor with an axe to grind against a certain student or students from exaggerating the symptoms of said student or students, thus making their life a living hell and robbing them of their rights? And you do realize this would probably require the formation of a database of the mentally ill, further stigmatizing them within society, correct?
    Even if that one counselor were to have an axe to grind, why would the second one that the student is sent to for further testing have an axe to grind? Why would then the Judge also have an axe to grind?

    Also I do not see why we shouldn't have a database of the serverly mentally ill if they are a danger to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Butler View Post
    And how exactly do you suggest this get paid for?
    Your kidding right? It's not going to cost THAT much to pay for a few days of testing each year especially if you use the counselors already at the school. And for the secondary opinion counselors well.. who would dare come out and say they are charging tax payers their full rate to prevent school shootings? That would be a PR nightmare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz
    Even if that one counselor were to have an axe to grind, why would the second one that the student is sent to for further testing have an axe to grind? Why would then the Judge also have an axe to grind?

    Also I do not see why we shouldn't have a database of the serverly mentally ill if they are a danger to others.
    You're already leaving a wide open window for innocent students to have their lives broken by forcing them to go through the system of further testing in the first place.

    Why should we infringe on the rights of the law-abiding majority by further stigmatizing them for the crimes of the minority, hm?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Butler View Post
    You're already leaving a wide open window for innocent students to have their lives broken by forcing them to go through the system of further testing in the first place.

    Why should we infringe on the rights of the law-abiding majority by further stigmatizing them for the crimes of the minority, hm?
    Lives broken? Having a secondary test is hardly life breaking, especially when the only people that know about it are two counselors, the kid, and that kid's parents. C'mon you act as if they are forcing the child to have a black mark on his record for the rest of his life!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    Lives broken? Having a secondary test is hardly life breaking, especially when the only people that know about it are two counselors, the kid, and that kid's parents. C'mon you act as if they are forcing the child to have a black mark on his record for the rest of his life!
    I infer from this comment that the very fact said student was sent into the system for the secondary testing wouldn't be noted on his record?

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    In my opinion, the outright ban of assault rifles would be much like the ban of alcohol was during Prohibition. People are always going to find a way to get them, no matter how illegal it is. However, that doesn't mean it should be as easy as it is now to obtain one. People with mental disorders, people who obviously don't understand how a firearm works or functions, or have never owned a firearm before should certainly not be allowed to own one. And, it should be mandatory that all firearms, regardless of their killing potential, should be kept locked away in a safe or something similar, out of reach of children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    You mean Corruption talks. That is what the goal of the Pro Gun lobby spokesman was.
    Let me guess, federal gun registry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    It always amuses me when people scream about the NRA funding things, but it's great for Bloomberg and the Brady Campaign to pour their money into their ads.
    Well, the firearms industry have been making a lot of profits so where do you think the money is coming from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Butler View Post
    I infer from this comment that the very fact said student was sent into the system for the secondary testing wouldn't be noted on his record?
    Why should it be? The secondary testing is merely to act as a backup check before any further treatment is suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul
    Let me guess, federal gun registry?
    No, as the article says, the Pro Gun Lobbyist wanted to use money to buy off Senators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul
    Well, the firearms industry have been making a lot of profits so where do you think the money is coming from?
    What does that have to do with what he said? I mean it is true there is a double standard. When the NRA puts out ads or a grading list, Liberals seem to freak out at their power. But the Pro Gun Lobbyist suggests Senators votes could be bought off, what do you hear? Silence.
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    I'm asking this unbiased of party politics, not to mention I don't own a single gun so I'm clueless about them in general...but why exactly do people not support more background checks for guns, yet there's always big pushed for stuff like voter id? It just seems weird to me.
    Last edited by HoennMaster; 19th April 2013 at 5:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoennMaster View Post
    I'm asking this unbiased of party politics, not to mention I don't own a single gun so I'm clueless about them in general...but why exactly do people not support more background checks for guns, yet there's always big pushed for stuff like voter id? It just seems weird to me.
    The idea I think with the bill is the talk of creating a national database with the background checks, which theoretically would help the Government round up anyone that has guns. That atleast was one of the big reasons why the ACLU was against it. On the other hand voter ID really does not have the possibility of massive right infringement and actually helps safe guard our elections.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWatersGreatGuardian View Post
    Good.
    I'd like to highlight this piece:
    However, a majority of Americans also fear that increased background checks would lead to a federal registry of gun owners that could allow the government to take away legally owned weapons.
    White House spokesman Jay Carney called any claim that the Manchin-Toomey plan would lead to a federal gun registry and confiscation of firearms "absurd and false and wrong."
    ------------
    This is exactly my fear. Of course they say that it wouldn't lead to that. But it is a step in that direction whether they are willing to admit it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLutz View Post
    The idea I think with the bill is the talk of creating a national database with the background checks, which theoretically would help the Government round up anyone that has guns. That atleast was one of the big reasons why the ACLU was against it
    Yes, a bill that outlaws the creation of a national gun registry would definitely create a national gun registry.
    On the other hand voter ID really does not have the possibility of massive right infringement
    Except for the fact that it forces you to purchase ID, and potentially keeps poor Americans for voting.
    and actually helps safe guard our elections.
    Considering the fact these these are intended to stop voter fraud, which doesn't actually happen, I have to disagree with you here.
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    Actually there is a rather large loop hole involved.

    "(c) PROHIBITION OF NATIONAL GUN REGISTRY.-
    Section 923 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:
    ”(m) The Attorney General may not consolidate or centralize the records of the-
    ”(1) acquisition or disposition of firearms, or any portion thereof, maintained by-
    ”(A) a person with a valid, current license under this chapter;
    ”(B) an unlicensed transferor under section 922(t); or
    ”(2) possession or ownership of a firearm, maintained by any medical or health insurance entity.”."

    YAY no Gun Registary! Well... unless someone else other than the Attorney General is tasked with creating a centralized gun registry. Whoops.

    Kind of like that whole "If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it" BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    Except for the fact that it forces you to purchase ID, and potentially keeps poor Americans for voting.
    It forces you to purchase a ID? I believe a ID is given to you at birth in the form of a Social Security Card. You know the card that you are required to have if you wish to attend college, get a job, get a divers license, and practically do anything in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by WizardTrubbish View Post
    Considering the fact these these are intended to stop voter fraud, which doesn't actually happen, I have to disagree with you here.
    Well as I showed in the other thread as how fraud does happen in smaller less national elections that really does not hold up. But since this is a 2nd Amendment thread, I will also point out that just because large scale election fraud hasn't happened yet, does not mean it won't.
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    So basically, federal gun registry is the new death panels as it DOESN'T EXIST and Politifact ruled Obama's statements on the bipartisan background check plan outlawing any gun registry True.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...k-plan-outlaw/

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    So, why is nobody supporting to most obvious method, which is to require a licence to buy a weapon, and for a bill of sale to be held by both participants in a transaction?

    This cuts out most of the red tape, ensures that firearm owners are safe, and assures whoever is selling that the buyer has passed the requirements (including a background check, drug testing, psychiatric screening, safety classes, etc.) to own a specific type of firearm, or to carry it for a specific purpose?

    This solution is so blindingly obvious I'm dumbfounded that nobody ever considers it.
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    Politifact is biased. The bills, as written, denied the Attorney General from making a registry. They didn't ban anyone else from making a registry and calling it something else. Heck, Pelosi wants a yearly tax on firearms! How would they track who to tax every year?

    As for "Death Panels?" They won't be called that. It just won't be cost-effective to treat certain people under Obamacare.


    So, why is nobody supporting to most obvious method, which is to require a licence to buy a weapon, and for a bill of sale to be held by both participants in a transaction?

    This cuts out most of the red tape, ensures that firearm owners are safe, and assures whoever is selling that the buyer has passed the requirements (including a background check, drug testing, psychiatric screening, safety classes, etc.) to own a specific type of firearm, or to carry it for a specific purpose?

    This solution is so blindingly obvious I'm dumbfounded that nobody ever considers it.
    Because gun ownership is a Right and not a privilege? The few states or cities that require a license to own a gun, use that license as a means to block gun ownership. I wouldn't mind people being advised to keep a bill of sale. Advised only, not required. I don't need a reason to own a weapon of any kind.
    Last edited by LDSman; 19th April 2013 at 8:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
    So basically, federal gun registry is the new death panels as it DOESN'T EXIST and Politifact ruled Obama's statements on the bipartisan background check plan outlawing any gun registry True.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...k-plan-outlaw/
    It outlaws the Attorney General from creating it, it does not outlaw other officials from creating it. That is a fact that comes straight from the bill.
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    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...comment-932773

    This will start off as a way to prevent bombings and then will get ammo tacked on to it.

    And you can expect Executive Orders that may be Constitutional Violations. Can't get the votes in Congress? Time to be a Dictator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    Politifact is biased. The bills, as written, denied the Attorney General from making a registry. They didn't ban anyone else from making a registry and calling it something else. Heck, Pelosi wants a yearly tax on firearms! How would they track who to tax every year?

    As for "Death Panels?" They won't be called that. It just won't be cost-effective to treat certain people under Obamacare.
    Yes, yes... We will not let fact checking get in the way of the conservative agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
    Yes, yes... We will not let fact checking get in the way of the conservative agenda.
    So you ignore the actual language of the bill? Who is not letting fact checking get in the way of their agenda again? Because this is a bit of a Pot calling the Kettle Black thing going on if you ignore the actual language of the bill.
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    Here. List of sites for Politifact Bias.


    http://www.bing.com/search?q=politif...st=9&FORM=PERE

    Discuss how the bias shows.
    http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/3...n-left-really/
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