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Thread: United States Gun Control: Gun Control = Fascism Everybody!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    It was vague on purpose.



    1. Those don't work.
    2. Why?
    3. Wouldn't work for older firearms.
    It helps stem the influx of new weapons that are obtained illegally and used in crimes. So, I could infer that you are against not letting more illegally obtained guns on to the market. I know it won't stop it completely, but it will slow it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woot21 View Post
    It helps stem the influx of new weapons that are obtained illegally and used in crimes. So, I could infer that you are against not letting more illegally obtained guns on to the market. I know it won't stop it completely, but it will slow it.
    Explain how a non functioning bio lock would do this?

    Edit

    Or what's preventing someone from "hacking" said lock?
    Last edited by LDSman; 25th April 2013 at 3:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    Explain how a non functioning bio lock would do this?

    Edit

    Or what's preventing someone from "hacking" said lock?
    Make the bio locks work in such a way can not fire unless it has a registered owner, plus make the technology to register people be available at only licensed gun shops, and for replacements the original must be in shop still, if not the seller loses their license and has the guns seized and sent back to the manufacture to be sent to other sellers (and program the registration machines so they can be shut down remotely if they go missing or are taken out of the shop without a permit). As for hacking them, do you really think the guy holding up a 7-11 for crack money will know how to do that? Besides, I'm sure there is a way to program that deactivating the bio lock would trigger some kind of fail safe.

    As for the old guns I admitted it wouldn't solve that problem, but it would help prevent new ones hitting the streets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woot21 View Post
    Make the bio locks work in such a way can not fire unless it has a registered owner, plus make the technology to register people be available at only licensed gun shops, and for replacements the original must be in shop still, if not the seller loses their license and has the guns seized and sent back to the manufacture to be sent to other sellers (and program the registration machines so they can be shut down remotely if they go missing or are taken out of the shop without a permit). As for hacking them, do you really think the guy holding up a 7-11 for crack money will know how to do that? Besides, I'm sure there is a way to program that deactivating the bio lock would trigger some kind of fail safe.
    Such tech does not exist. So you want a gun registry. Good to know. The guy robbing the 7-11 might not know how to do that, but the guy selling stolen firearms probably would. People are adept at finding ways around locks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    Such tech does not exist. So you want a gun registry. Good to know. The guy robbing the 7-11 might not know how to do that, but the guy selling stolen firearms probably would. People are adept at finding ways around locks.
    By registration I meant registering the fingerprint to the bio lock. Though I do want a registry for inventory at gun stores. If there is a way to make the bio locks there needs to be a way to imprint on them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazios View Post
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    Fingerprint locks? What about the millions of people in America with guns already? What, you gonna go find them all and put locks on them? Then on top of that, you still have the black market and people manufacturing them themselves. I mean It's not rocket science to make guns. As long as the black market exists and people still manufacture them (knowing they have the right equipment for illegal gunsmithing operations), criminals will still have the up to date guns. Meaning, the gun can fire even in they're hands or they don't require locks at all. The only people the fingerprint lock would work on is the law abiding citizens. So no, it would be pointless because law abiding citizens are responsible, and they're the ones that follow the law. Criminals are the ones that cause crime, not honest citizens. You don't have to get a gun at a gun store, there's plenty of other ways.

    Guns are made illegally, imported illegally, sold privately to convicted criminals, there's no stopping the black market surrounding guns, anymore than there's a chance of stopping the drug market. Look at the illicit drug trade, drug laws haven't stopped anything. How many meth labs or green houses (to grow marijuana) do you think are in America alone?

    Like I've always said, gun control laws just restrict access to law abiding citizens, nothing more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFightingPikachu View Post
    You know, I don't know why it took me so long to realize how often you rely on straw man arguments to make your point.
    Luckily I realised a lot earlier how often you rely on technicalities to avoid making a proper response. It is not the first time that happened, you do it all the time. Stop hiding please. It is getting old.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
    May I ask, are you against guns? If so, why? If you're reasoning is because they kill people and used for killing then I'm not even gonna argue with you.

    They don't hand them a gun.. In most states it's actually "illegal" for an ex-convict to own a gun. No matter the laws a criminal will still get a gun I don't know why you guy's deny that. They don't get them at gun stores by getting a permit and all that. They get them illegally, you know the black market exists right? It's not a fantasy business, and they give the gun out for less money and no proof of legal ownership. Wow, you all don't know what you're talking about and you all are drinking the kool-aid.

    Better yet. Does the prison sentence stop rapist, murder's, hackers, people from detonating bombs, drunk driving and killin someone, etc? No, and it wouldn't be the same for guns? Yea keep dreaming. Gang members, they don't care and they cause most of the crime. But I'm just way over my head and gang members don't own black markets....
    I am in favor of strict gun controll. And I am in favor of it because the look so ugly. Are you kidding me? What else reason can people have to be against guns.. so saying you are not going to argue is simply hiding.

    And I never said that people can't get them illegaly, I was simply stating that you should not make it easier for them to get it.
    Last edited by 7 tyranitars; 25th April 2013 at 11:17 AM.
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    [QUOTE=7 tyranitars;15932510]Luckily I realised a lot earlier how often you rely on technicalities to avoid making a proper response. It is not the first time that happened, you do it all the time. Stop hiding please. It is getting old.




    I am in favor of strict gun controll. And I am in favor of it because the look so ugly. Are you kidding me? What else reason can people have to be against guns.. so saying you are not going to argue is simply hiding.
    Wow, that's you're argument? You're easy too fool.... No, I'm not arguing with someone that knows very little about god given rights and manufacturing, importing, and selling gun's illegally. Which is you. Stricter gun control, yea yea, doesn't work in New York, doesn't work in California, doesn't work in Illinois, doesn't work in the UK, doesn't work in Switzerland, doesn't work in Australia, etc. America has more gang members than any other country (most likely)and that's why it's crime is higher than most countries. The gun laws are good as is, only law abiding citizens according to the laws in most states (the rest are banned) will follow the permit law. The rest of the population, will ignore it and get them from illegal importing and sold to them privately "illegally". Then when they get caught, they go to jail. There's no need to throw them in prison for life over a gun owned illegally because you can't prove they killed someone even if they're a gang member.

    And I never said that people can't get them illegaly, I was simply stating that you should not make it easier for them to get it.
    Once again, either way regardless of the laws, criminals will still get them. No matter the laws, it's still easy for them to get them. As I said before; illegal manufacture of guns, illegal importing of guns, and illegally selling guns privately to convicted felons is how they get them. Criminals don't get them at guns stores, gun stores isn't the only business capable of selling firearms. If I had the right gunsmith equipment, I could easily manufacture guns illegally, drive into the hood with a box trailer and sell them guns illegally. That's how easy it is to sell guns illegally. So, try answering that one, sounds pretty easy to me.
    Last edited by ShinyUmbreon189; 25th April 2013 at 12:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
    The only people the fingerprint lock would work on is the law abiding citizens. So no, it would be pointless because law abiding citizens are responsible, and they're the ones that follow the law. Criminals are the ones that cause crime, not honest citizens. You don't have to get a gun at a gun store, there's plenty of other ways.
    Guns are never stolen, ever. There are never guns that are stolen that are used in crimes. Also, the Boston Marathon bombers used guns they obtained legally, despite being on the terror watch list.

    As for the illegal gunsmithing regulate black and smokeless powder better. I know having a registry is something that gun advocates are against but it would help, would allow checks to see if a person buying a ammo has the type of gun they are buying ammo for. I have never once said it would stop illegal guns, but it would slow the tide, which would be a big thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woot21 View Post
    Guns are never stolen, ever. There are never guns that are stolen that are used in crimes. Also, the Boston Marathon bombers used guns they obtained legally, despite being on the terror watch list.

    As for the illegal gunsmithing regulate black and smokeless powder better. I know having a registry is something that gun advocates are against but it would help, would allow checks to see if a person buying a ammo has the type of gun they are buying ammo for. I have never once said it would stop illegal guns, but it would slow the tide, which would be a big thing.
    Regulating the powder wouldn't do much. Heck, crude black powder can be made from urine, sulfur, and charcoal; and I'm sure anyone with some basic knowledge of chemistry could make much more refined gunpowder with just household chemicals. Same goes for guns, crude homemade guns can and have be made from everyday garbage and a metal worker could easily make any parts needed to assemble a more modern firearm. That's another problem with gun control,it's not so much restricting firearms as it is trying to restrict a technology that's hundreds of years old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woot21 View Post
    Guns are never stolen, ever. There are never guns that are stolen that are used in crimes. Also, the Boston Marathon bombers used guns they obtained legally, despite being on the terror watch list.

    As for the illegal gunsmithing regulate black and smokeless powder better. I know having a registry is something that gun advocates are against but it would help, would allow checks to see if a person buying a ammo has the type of gun they are buying ammo for. I have never once said it would stop illegal guns, but it would slow the tide, which would be a big thing.
    What does it matter what type of ammo I buy? People buy ammo for friends or buy ammo in prep to buying that caliber of gun. Gun registry of any kind, including powder, is wrong and wouldn't apply to criminals. The whole 5th amendment deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woot21 View Post
    Guns are never stolen, ever. There are never guns that are stolen that are used in crimes. Also, the Boston Marathon bombers used guns they obtained legally, despite being on the terror watch list.

    As for the illegal gunsmithing regulate black and smokeless powder better. I know having a registry is something that gun advocates are against but it would help, would allow checks to see if a person buying a ammo has the type of gun they are buying ammo for. I have never once said it would stop illegal guns, but it would slow the tide, which would be a big thing.
    Guns aren't stolen my ***, I don't know where you heard that from unless you're just trying to argue with a point that's invalid to look good. I live around the hood, and I know exactly what they do to rob guns and I wont give out the whole process. They pretty much knock on you're door, owner answers, they shove the door so it smacks you in the face (if the chain isn't in place), walk in, and raid you're house looking for guns. Usually it's a 2 to group man job knowing the owner will call the cops, so they hold the owner or owners down while one raids the place. That's how criminals get guns when they're stolen. If you lived in or around the hood you would know. So yes, stolen guns are used in crimes, but more crimes are with illegal ownership of guns through the black market or someone manufacturing them for profit themselves.

    What's you point with the ammo? They don't just sell guns illegally, they sell ammo in bulk illegally as well. They have pistol ammo to explosives on the market. It's obvious a criminal couldn't walk into a gun store and buy any ammo and explosives but the black market has explosives. Usually it's just grenades but every now and then (very rarely) you can get C-4 explosives through the black market as well. It's not rocket science that the black market has everything from ammo to explosives, just a little bit of knowledge and you could of avoided this post, js.

    No, fingerprinting would not slow anything down knowing there's no stopping the black market and at home manufactures. As someone else said, with just the right tools, equipment, and chemistry knowledge someone could easily make guns and ammo both. Once they get everything made, they can get a box truck drive into the hood and sell they're products, without asking the criminals questions. Illegal gun selling is legit, it's not a fake business.

    But next time you decide to argue with a point that makes no sense, make sure you think before posting. Because you are no doubt, losing this argument, I have you left, right, north south, up down, east, and west. Don't reply back with an argument unless you for sure know what you're talking about instead of talking out you're *** because you have very little knowledge about anything I just posted.
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    You know the one thing they can do is pass a law that pervents the buying and selling firearms online to anyone. Cause who knows who is behind the computer screen.

    Also a thing to think about if we do ban all guns how are we going to collect them all?! You really want the feds to go into every home,gun shop, Pawn shop( they trade in firearms too;mostly very one ones) and force the owners to hand them over?!

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    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/single...ry?id=19028841

    So far, only a single gun has been recovered. No word on how many guns they were thought to have. The gun had its serial number destroyed. One brother was too young to buy a gun and the othe brother had a domestic abuse charge and had not obtained a "permit to buy" card. So any guns they had, they had illegally.

    Internet gun sales have to go to a licensed gun dealer for the transfer or be done face to face.
    Last edited by LDSman; 25th April 2013 at 7:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildHennaCharizard View Post
    You know the one thing they can do is pass a law that pervents the buying and selling firearms online to anyone. Cause who knows who is behind the computer screen.

    Also a thing to think about if we do ban all guns how are we going to collect them all?! You really want the feds to go into every home,gun shop, Pawn shop( they trade in firearms too;mostly very one ones) and force the owners to hand them over?!
    ldsman already answered this for me. When buying online it must be sold to a legit registered business for legal reasons and usually face to face for obvious reasons. So it's impossible for someone to buy guns through the internet illegally without going to a store just to get turned down. But there is other ways around it.

    If the gun bans in the US went through, it would be a TON of crime. Lot's of murders, I mean LOTS of murders. Walk up to the wrong house have an NRA dude in there and blow you're head off you're shoulders. Lot's say, only from my cold dead body. When saying this, they aren't joking, they will be damned if someone trys to take they're god given right and if it happens, it will be like a Civil War. They will fight for they're rights, this will be one event that will cause America to snap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    All semi-autos fire as fast as you pull the trigger, so your "RPMs(?), don't matter.
    Depends on the recoil, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
    If the gun bans in the US went through, it would be a TON of crime. Lot's of murders, I mean LOTS of murders. Walk up to the wrong house have an NRA dude in there and blow you're head off you're shoulders. Lot's say, only from my cold dead body. When saying this, they aren't joking, they will be damned if someone trys to take they're god given right and if it happens, it will be like a Civil War. They will fight for they're rights, this will be one event that will cause America to snap.
    I doubt even the NRA is that insane. The CSA did fight for their rights in the Civil War, but those "rights" were very different from gun rights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    I doubt even the NRA is that insane. The CSA did fight for their rights in the Civil War, but those "rights" were very different from gun rights.
    Keep thinkin that buddy. I wouldn't blame them, "God given right" is civil liberties. It's a right that cannot be taken away from us.. That's like them banning other religions saying you can't believe in a certain "God". Not saying banning religion would cause a major war or nothing but banning guns is completely different. They will be doing it for a purpose, not because they're "mentally unstable", but because they know it's a right and will fight to keep that right. Knowing they may, or may not make it out alive.
    Last edited by ShinyUmbreon189; 25th April 2013 at 11:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
    Keep thinkin that buddy. I wouldn't blame them, "God given right" is civil liberties. It's a right that cannot be taken away from us.. That's like them banning other religions saying you can't believe in a certain "God". Not saying banning religion would cause a major war or nothing but banning guns is completely different. They will be doing it for a purpose, not because they're "mentally unstable", but because they know it's a right and will fight to keep that right. Knowing they may, or may not make it out alive.
    Oh you mean how the staunchest defender of the 2nd amendment in the media, FOX News, wants to take away the entire Bill of Rights from not only the captured Boston Marathon bomber, but from the dead one's wife? As for my guns are never stolen comment, it was sarcastic.

    I also noticed how the only argument against gun control I've really seen in this thread is that it wouldn't stop all criminals, therefore it must not be done. I hate to do this, but I'll make the same argument with murder then. It still happens, and only criminals commit it, so why have laws against murder?

    As for the ammo thing, if you start regulating black and smokeless powder you can at least take a few sellers or producers of illegal ammo off the market. Same with the registry. If someone buys 500 rounds for a caliber of gun they don't own that should raise a red flag. You don't do anything about the first time, but if it keeps happening I think that falls under probable cause to investigate. And how the hell is having to register your guns denying you the right life, liberty, or property?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
    Keep thinkin that buddy. I wouldn't blame them, "God given right" is civil liberties. It's a right that cannot be taken away from us.. That's like them banning other religions saying you can't believe in a certain "God". Not saying banning religion would cause a major war or nothing but banning guns is completely different. They will be doing it for a purpose, not because they're "mentally unstable", but because they know it's a right and will fight to keep that right. Knowing they may, or may not make it out alive.
    Especially since a number of other gov'ts banned and confiscated guns just prior to a large number of civilian deaths that were caused by said government.


    Quote Originally Posted by woot21 View Post
    Oh you mean how the staunchest defender of the 2nd amendment in the media, FOX News, wants to take away the entire Bill of Rights from not only the captured Boston Marathon bomber, but from the dead one's wife? As for my guns are never stolen comment, it was sarcastic.

    I also noticed how the only argument against gun control I've really seen in this thread is that it wouldn't stop all criminals, therefore it must not be done. I hate to do this, but I'll make the same argument with murder then. It still happens, and only criminals commit it, so why have laws against murder?

    As for the ammo thing, if you start regulating black and smokeless powder you can at least take a few sellers or producers of illegal ammo off the market. Same with the registry. If someone buys 500 rounds for a caliber of gun they don't own that should raise a red flag. You don't do anything about the first time, but if it keeps happening I think that falls under probable cause to investigate. And how the hell is having to register your guns denying you the right life, liberty, or property?
    Could you cite where Fox News has advocated taking away the "entire Bill of Rights"? I've seen articles in various places by various people saying they could and should have questioned him for 48 hours under a 1980 law about terrorist conspiracies before they had to Mirandize him, but I haven't seen what you are claiming.

    Laws about Murder punish people for committing murder. Punishment for an intentional act. Gun Control laws punish people who haven't committed a crime up until that law was passed. They seek to criminalize owning an inanimate object. See the difference? Nice strawman though.

    Ammo. Here's a scenario: You and a friend are going shooting. He's busy and asks you to buy a case of ammo for him as you both plan to shoot targets, using his guns, for a few hours. Why should that get you in trouble? People who shoot regularly can go through a few thousand rounds in an afternoon.
    The powder regulations will, again, only affect the law-abiding! Those that shoot antique weapons or reload their own bullets. Those that already break the law, won't be stopped!

    Amusing fact about gun registries. The Supreme Court has ruled that criminals don't have to register their weapons as it is self incriminatory. a 5th Amendment Violation. As demonstrated by newspapers, that information is also subject to FOIA requests. Which lets criminals know who they should target if they want a gun. It also lets interfering busybodies know who to target. Someone doesn't like you, the file an anonymous complaint with DHR. "Our records show you own a gun. Guns shouldn't be around kids, so we are demanding you let DHR inspect your home whenever we want."
    Last edited by LDSman; 26th April 2013 at 12:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
    Keep thinkin that buddy. I wouldn't blame them, "God given right" is civil liberties. It's a right that cannot be taken away from us.. That's like them banning other religions saying you can't believe in a certain "God". Not saying banning religion would cause a major war or nothing but banning guns is completely different. They will be doing it for a purpose, not because they're "mentally unstable", but because they know it's a right and will fight to keep that right. Knowing they may, or may not make it out alive.
    I wouldn't say that banning guns is equivalent to banning religion. This is from the second amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Clearly the right to bear arms was made with a militia in mind, which, of course, is no longer needed. Religion, on the other hand, is part of one's culture and is very personal, unlike weapons.

    With all this said, I am in no way saying that I believe guns should be banned, I'm just saying that I doubt anyone would start a war over the ownership of guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    I wouldn't say that banning guns is equivalent to banning religion. This is from the second amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Clearly the right to bear arms was made with a militia in mind, which, of course, is no longer needed. Religion, on the other hand, is part of one's culture and is very personal, unlike weapons.

    With all this said, I am in no way saying that I believe guns should be banned, I'm just saying that I doubt anyone would start a war over the ownership of guns.
    I disagree about the need for a militia. Look at Katrina. The locals in some areas formed what could be considered a militia to defend their homes against looters. The Right to self defense is a part of my culture. The anti gun people seem to be willing to start a war over gun ownership.
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  22. #947
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    Actually the right to bear arms is set to protect us from a tyrannical government. But yea look at Katrina, as lsdman said.
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  23. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsman View Post
    The Right to self defense is a part of my culture.
    I don't see how that can be part of your culture. People from around the world have different religions, and your religion often defines you and your heritage because of that reason. Religion establishes a spiritual bond between you and God and urges people to be morally righteous. Yes, self-defense is something that everyone practices, but you cannot say that not owning a gun leaves you completely defenseless and affronts your culture. Comparing the right to bear arms with freedom of religion is not a strong argument.

    But on the other hand, I see what you mean about wanting to protect yourself with your own power, even if there is law enforcement and the military. Again, I'm not arguing against the second ammendment, I'm just saying that you can't say that ownership of a gun and the right to practice a religion are the same.
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  24. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    I don't see how that can be part of your culture. People from around the world have different religions, and your religion often defines you and your heritage because of that reason.
    Culture and religion are two different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    but you cannot say that not owning a gun leaves you completely defenseless and affronts your culture.
    As an American, I have the Right to bear arms. That is part of the American Culture. Not being able to own a gun hampers my self defense capabilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    Comparing the right to bear arms with freedom of religion is not a strong argument.

    But on the other hand, I see what you mean about wanting to protect yourself with your own power, even if there is law enforcement and the military. Again, I'm not arguing against the second ammendment, I'm just saying that you can't say that ownership of a gun and the right to practice a religion are the same.
    How is it not a strong argument? Are both not Rights in the Constitution? And remember, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away. And per the Supreme Court, under no obligations to protect you."
    I never said they were the same thing. They are the First and Second Amendments. If one can be taken away, how long till another comes under attack? Being able to own a firearm does lend itself to defending ones freedom of religion though.
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  25. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneyy View Post
    I wouldn't say that banning guns is equivalent to banning religion. This is from the second amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Clearly the right to bear arms was made with a militia in mind, which, of course, is no longer needed. Religion, on the other hand, is part of one's culture and is very personal, unlike weapons.
    We have already been over this in the last page in terms of the Militia and how it was really in reference of the people.

    As for the Guns and Religion angle, I must remind you that with out the Second Amendment, none of the others, including Freedom of Religion means absolutely nothing as there is nothing stopping the Government from taking it away.

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