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Thread: The Bible: Reliability and Interpretation

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    Default The Bible: Reliability and Interpretation

    The Bible: Reliability and Interpretation
    This thread is on the topic of The Bible, whether or not it is accurate and reliable and if it is, then what does it really say?

    To start this off, myself and others have narrowed this debate down to three main arguments:

    1) Life is too improbable to have occurred naturally and so there must be another explanation.

    2) The Prophesies contained in the Bible provide evidence that the writers of the Bible had help from an "outside source".

    3) The Bible contains information that is way ahead of its time.


    Lets start with the first argument, Life is too improbable to have occurred naturally and so there must be another explanation.
    Now, what would we have to look at to conclude this? Well, scientists have a theory that states what they think is the way that humans got here on Earth. But it has many, many holes.

    Firstly lets take a look at the beginning of the universe. While most scientist agree that the world is just over 13 Billion years old, they still have no idea how it came into existence. So they do not know how nonliving matter came into existence.[source]

    Second we have the rise of life from nonliving matter. Science has never proven that this is possible. In fact in a study where there were perfect conditions for life to spontaneously arise, they only got part of what they needed for a cell to be created. [source] and there is quite obvious scientific fact that miraculously went out the window when he theory of evolution came into existence "Order cannot stem from Chaos". [source]

    And finally the evolution from randomly-created-single-celled-organism to what we see around us today. Scientists have basically two theories when it comes to how this happened: Random mutation and Natural selection. Are either of these possibilities viable? First, lets take a look at random mutation. The human body has over 7500 working parts in it, so lets say we need at least 1 random mutation for each working part. For the sake of this argument, lets say that each time there is a mutation, there is a 50/50 chance of being beneficial to the organism. (Several things to note: 1) in reality, the odds of a mutation being beneficial to an organism are way lower than 50/50 2) The odds of mutations happening period is extremely low. Very few positive mutations have been observed by scientist and almost all have been under forced conditions such as radiation and drugs 3) Mutations have never been recorded to effect the genetic code of an organism, (think a broken arm, it doesn't effect the DNA)) The odds of 7500 positive mutations happening with a 50/50 chance are 1 in 10^2000.(10 with 2000 zeroes after it) And that is just in modern day humans, we have the entire plant and animal kingdoms that would have to have gone through the exact same thing.[source]
    Now,what about natural selection? Natural selection is the idea that the weak organisms will die off and the strong will live....and eventually become stronger. Well, what have we observed? Science has observed that, yes species better equipped for certain scenarios will survive and those that are not not will die. But they have not observed them actually getting better at their given situation. The only one that comes close is the study of Darwin's Finches, which showed that beak changes changed in different areas after many generations, but there what most people care to ignore about this study is that the finches were not better, they were better for different parts of the year(seasons) and yet weaker in others.

    Now, lets take a look at the second argument. The Prophesies contained in the Bible provide evidence that the writers of the Bible had help from an "outside source".

    Well, lets take a look at a few prophesies:
    1)
    Prophecy: Isa. 44:24, 27, 28; 45:1-4: “Jehovah . . . the One saying to the watery deep, ‘Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up’; the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in my saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’ This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: ‘Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. . . . For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I even proceeded to call you by your name.’” (Writing by Isaiah was completed by about 732 B.C.E.)

    Fulfillment: Cyrus had not been born when the prophecy was written. The Jews were not taken into exile to Babylon until 617-607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem and its temple were not destroyed until 607 B.C.E. In detail the prophecy was fulfilled starting in 539 B.C.E. Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River into an artificial lake, the river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city, and Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. Thereafter, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild Jehovah’s temple there.—The Encyclopedia Americana

    2)
    Prophecy: Jer. 49:17, 18: “‘Edom must become an object of astonishment. Everyone passing along by her will stare in astonishment and whistle on account of all her plagues. Just as in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and her neighbor towns,’ Jehovah has said, ‘no man will dwell there.’” (Jeremiah’s recording of prophecies was completed by 580 B.C.E.)

    Fulfillment: “They [the Edomites] were driven from Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. by Judas Maccabćus, and in 109 B.C. John Hyrcanus, Maccabćan leader, extended the kingdom of Judah to include the w. part of Edomitic lands. In the 1st century B.C. Roman expansion swept away the last vestige of Edomitic independence . . . After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. . . . the name Idumća [Edom] disappeared from history.” (The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia) Notice that the fulfillment extends down to our day. In no way can it be argued that this prophecy was written after the events had taken place.

    3)
    Prophecy: Luke 19:41-44; 21:20, 21: “He [Jesus Christ] viewed the city [Jerusalem] and wept over it, saying: . . . ‘The days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.’” Two days later, he counseled his disciples: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw.” (Prophecy spoken by Jesus Christ in 33 C.E.)

    Fulfillment: Jerusalem revolted against Rome, and in 66 C.E. the Roman army under Cestius Gallus attacked the city. But, as Jewish historian Josephus reports, the Roman commander “suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City.” (Josephus, the Jewish War, Penguin Classics, 1969, p. 167) This provided opportunity for Christians to flee from the city, which they did, moving to Pella, beyond the Jordan, according to Eusebius Pamphilus in his Ecclesiastical History. (Translated by C. F. Crusé, London, 1894, p. 75) Then around Passover time of the year 70 C.E. General Titus besieged the city, an encircling fence 4.5 miles (7.2 km) long was erected in just three days, and after five months Jerusalem fell. “Jerusalem itself was systematically destroyed and the Temple left in ruins. Archaeological work shows us today just how effective was the destruction of Jewish buildings all over the land.”—The Bible and Archaeology

    Now, that's well and good, but what about prophesies about our time?
        Spoiler:


    It also predicted that the League of Nations would not remain destroyed:[source]

    Now lets take a look at the last argument: The Bible contains information that is way ahead of its time.
    Many of these can be found here. (agreed, a lot of these are straw grasps, but a good chunk are still valid)

    Now, an obvious question arises: If there is all this evidence to suggest we can trust the Bible, why do so many not want to?
    The answer to this question is quite simple actually. People want to decide for themselves what is right and wrong and they don't want to be told by anyone what they can and can't do. This is the question that arose in the Genesis account. "Whose way of life is better, God's, or Man's?" Well god let humanity see what it was like under their own rule and it isn't good. The world is filled with crime, war, violence, famine, disease and death.

    So the next question is: Why would I want to follow the Bibe?
    The answer to that question again, is simple.
    God put Adam and Eve on Earth for a reason, he wanted them to live forever.
    So, eventually this is what he will do again, he will put the earth back to the conditions of eden.

    List (1)
    “The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live
    forever on it.”
    Psalm 37:29

    “The earth remains forever.”
    Ecclesiastes 1:4

    “He will swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign
    Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.”
    Isaiah 25:8

    “At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, and
    the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. At that time
    the lame will leap like the deer, and the tongue of the
    speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth
    in the wilderness, and streams in the desert plain.”
    Isaiah 35:5, 6

    “He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death
    will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor
    pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
    Revelation 21:4

    “They will build houses and live
    in them, and they will plant
    vineyards and eat their fruitage.
    They will not build for someone
    else to inhabit, nor will they
    plant for others to eat. For the
    days of my people will be like the
    days of a tree, and the work of
    their hands my chosen ones will
    enjoy to the full.”
    Isaiah 65:21, 22

    Now what is required of us to attain this? Really, not much.

    SHUN WHAT JEHOVAH HATES
    List (2)
    Manslaughter.—Exodus 20:
    13; 21:22, 23.

    Sexual immorality.
    —Leviticus 20:10, 13, 15, 16;
    Romans 1:24, 26, 27, 32;
    1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.


    Spiritism.—Deuteronomy 18:
    9-13; 1 Corinthians 10:21, 22;
    Galatians 5:20, 21.

    Idolatry.
    —1 Corinthians 10:14.

    Drunkenness.
    —1 Corinthians 5:11.

    Stealing.—Leviticus 6:2, 4;
    Ephesians 4:28.

    Lying.—Proverbs 6:16, 19;
    Colossians 3:9; Revelation 22:15.

    Greed.—1 Corinthians 5:11.

    Violence.—Psalm 11:5;
    Proverbs 22:24, 25; Malachi 2:16;
    Galatians 5:20, 21.

    Improper speech.
    —Leviticus 19:16; Ephesians 5:4;
    Colossians 3:8.

    Refusal to provide for
    one’s family.—1 Timothy 5:8.


    Use of tobacco or
    so-called recreational
    drugs.—Mark 15:23;
    2 Corinthians 7:1.

    Misuse of blood.
    —Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:20, 28, 29.

    So, to put it simply, we do not do the second list and we get the first list, plain and simple.

    Now, what about all the Religions of the world?
    Well, to put it quite bluntly, not all of those religions who profess to be Christian actually are. Since the death of Christ, Christianity has melded with Paganism, resulting in a lot of teaching that are found nowhere in the Bible, like the Trinity, Hellfire, Immortality of the Soul, Cross worship, The fact that Jesus was born of December 25th and more.


    Now, there is much more to this topic, and that is what we will be discussing.

    Side notes:
    @ The Mods: If you wish to shut this, I totally understand. But there is the fact that this is an important topic, and it really does need to be examined. But if things get insulting and the like, yeah, please close this.

    @ The Federation: I am hoping to continue our debate in this thread. I tried to address all your points from your lat post, but I'm sure I missed some. I'll be sure to address those eventually.
    #AlphaSapphire
    I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
    If you have a question about my religion, or wish to discuss my religion, the Bible, or anything related to this topic, feel free to PM or VM me, take a look at the information in my profile or visit our official website.

  2. #2
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    It's been a while since we had a Bible debate. It's very easy to say that the Bible predicted something that already happened. Can you show something the Bible will predict?

    You're saying that something can't come out of nothing, then where did God come from?
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

    Werster is without a doubt the Pokémon Master.

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    No. You've submitted this thread like 3 different times when we were under thread moderation, and it never got approved. You then asked me if it was because of the OP or the constituents of the debate itself, and I said it was the latter.

    I'm just baffled that you submitted this. I'm almost regretting taking off thread moderation jesus christ. (Haha get it because it was a bible debate)

    PM me if you wanna work something out. I'm not entirely unreasonable. Also Bible interpretation is the current tangent in the tangent thread |:

    Star-Lord

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