Starter Speculation/Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

[Trudermark]

The Vanillite line is no worse than some of Gen. 1's unoriginal designs (Voltorb/Electrode, Grimer/Muk, and all that).

People just criticize it because it's the Gen. 5 is the current thing, and the only reason Gen. 1 can get away with unoriginal Pokemon design is because there was nothing to compare it to. Honestly, if the Vanillite line came out in Gen. 1, nobody would have cared, and nobody would be criticizing it today.

Give it time. After awhile, most people will forget it exists and remember the so-called "cool" Pokemon in Gen. 5, because that's just how things work.

EDIT: And am I the only one that actually prefers the Gen. 5 starters over these ones? :/ The only starter I like in this gen. is Froakie, whereas the only starter I hated in gen. 5 was Tepig.

You're right. If the Vanillite evolution line come out in the Gen 1, people wouldn't have cared. It's sad. :/

[spiller]

You're right. If the Vanillite evolution line come out in the Gen 1, people wouldn't have cared. It's sad. :/

i would still not like vanillite if it was released in gen 1 just like i dont like junx. everyone has a pokemon that they dont like and i dont like vanilite, the fact that it is pokemon has nothing to do with it i love every gen and in every gen there are a few designs i dont like

[Demon Kitsune Yoko Kurama]

i would still not like vanillite if it was released in gen 1 just like i dont like junx. everyone has a pokemon that they dont like and i dont like vanilite, the fact that it is pokemon has nothing to do with it i love every gen and in every gen there are a few designs i dont like

Not really. I don't dislike any Pokemon. No matter how silly that sounds, it's true. I like them all.

Okay, so how 'bout them Starters?

[spiller]

Not really. I don't dislike any Pokemon. No matter how cliche that sounds, it's true. I like them all.

Okay, so how 'bout them Starters?

you could say i like them all but some like the ones mention i just dont like when compared to my favorites

[Luxvan]

Lol, haters just jelly 'cuz their free ice cream didn't beat the champion.
Anyway, that was my point, we get some unique designs, and this is the result.

[Golden_Latias]

i would still not like vanillite if it was released in gen 1 just like i dont like junx. everyone has a pokemon that they dont like and i dont like vanilite, the fact that it is pokemon has nothing to do with it i love every gen and in every gen there are a few designs i dont like

Neither of us ever said people would "like" Vanillite if it came out in Gen. 1.

Merely that it wouldn't be bashed nearly as much as it is, if at all.

How many people do you see complaining about how poorly designed Grimer or Muk are or how the idea of making sludge Pokemon is stupid?

Unless Trubbish/Garbador is brought up, never. I rest my case.

[Luxvan]

Neither of us ever said people would "like" Vanillite if it came out in Gen. 1.

Merely that it wouldn't be bashed nearly as much as it is, if at all.

How many people do you see complaining about how poorly designed Grimer or Muk are or how the idea of making sludge Pokemon is stupid?

Unless Trubbish/Garbador is brought up, never. I rest my case.

Yeah, really. Gen1 honestly has some really weak designs.

[Ghosts of the Forums]

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking ("I never did!") to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
("all lies!")
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!
("I never!")

Hope you don't mind if I pinch that name to use for m'self if that's the case ;P

Not a'tall, not a'tall. I just put two spaces dunno why.

[LeoP2008]

Now, I DO NOT believe that Chespin looks anything like Oshawott (they're cute mammalian starters who could pass for PikaClones. That is ALL)....BUT, to play devil's advocate!!

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...if this happens in Gen VII....I may be inclined to change my stance on the Chespin/Oshawott debate.

But seriously though, saying Chespin looks like Oshawott is just as bad as saying Fennekin looks like Vulpix/Zorua/Glameow. It annoys the fans of both sides.

Chespin and Fennekin fans, why not drop the argument and direct our energy towards something more deserving: Making sure Froakie doesn't become more popular than our favorites. lol j/k, j/k

[Ghosts of the Forums]

Now, I DO NOT believe that Chespin looks anything like Oshawott (they're cute mammalian starters who could pass for PikaClones. That is ALL)....BUT, to play devil's advocate!!

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...if this happens in Gen VII....I may be inclined to change my stance on the Chespin/Oshawott debate.

But seriously though, saying Chespin looks like Oshawott is just as bad as saying Fennekin looks like Vulpix/Zorua/Glameow. It annoys the fans of both sides.

Chespin and Fennekin fans, why not drop the argument and direct our energy towards something more deserving: Making sure Froakie doesn't become more popular than our favorites. lol j/k, j/k

Froakie is ok, I just prefer chespin.

[Ungoliath]

Well, I never liked half of the Pokemon there is to be honest. I hate when people blame a whole generation for some bad Pokemon. Because let's face it: Vanillite is not a good Pokemon. BUT Gen V had some GREAT Pokemon.

This generation, however, somehow feels different.

[Ampharoid]

Well, I never liked half of the Pokemon there is to be honest. I hate when people blame a whole generation for some bad Pokemon. Because let's face it: Vanillite is not a good Pokemon. BUT Gen V had some GREAT Pokemon.

This generation, however, somehow feels different.

we havent even seen anything for this generation apart from the starters and the cover pokemon haha

[Charmed]

Yeah, really. Gen1 honestly has some really weak designs.

It's funny how every time we get new Pokemon, Generation 1's Pokemon get bashed.

Chespin sucks and so does Fennekin. Why cant Nintendo design good Pokemon anymore?? Froakie's the only starter that looks good.

I agree with half of your statement sis; the Fennekin part is all wrong though. She's already the most popular, so Gamefreak clearly did something right there. Over all though, I'm not too thrilled with Gen 6's Starter Pokemon. There's a really good one (Fennekin), one that's sort of in the middle (Froakie), and one that's really bad imo (guess who). I wish Gamefreak could create a consistent trio of Starter Pokemon that all look good.

[Luxvan]

It's funny how every time we get new Pokemon, Generation 1's Pokemon get bashed.

Every gen gets bashed...

[Drohn]

I agree with most of this =D. Apart from the Chespin Scraggy(worst name in pokemon) resemblance =P. Everyone here will see different resemblances in starters, for example I think Chespin looks nothing like Oshawott, but that is my opinion, several others will think different.
Let's be honest guys, these starters probably exceeded alot of expectations after gen 5... It was terrible, with some terrible pokemon, but had a few nice ones (Reniclus, Zoroark and Volcarona!). So what these new starters MAY resemble old Pokemon. There are only a certain amount of animals they can base them on. But as said countless times prior to this, they will probably differ on evolution.
People should give them a chance or next thing we'll get a STRAWBERRY ice cream with SPRINKLES.

I don't think it looks much like Scraggy either, just the round head, and something on top of his head and similar-ish lower body :P But it really doesn't matter.. It would be stupid if we could only have one Pokemon with a round head or one Pokemon based on a fox.. People are complaining about it, but I don't get why.. If they become "original" for every single body part the next thing will be square heads or even worse.. I don't mind the starters have similarities with other Pokemon , because they have plenty of aspects that make them different.

[YellowHat's Revenge]

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking ("I never did!") to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
("all lies!")
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!
("I never!")

Hope you don't mind if I pinch that name to use for m'self if that's the case ;P

haha, I named my Escavalier Galahad as a Holy Grail reference.

[gliscor&yanmega]

Well, I never liked half of the Pokemon there is to be honest. I hate when people blame a whole generation for some bad Pokemon. Because let's face it: Vanillite is not a good Pokemon. BUT Gen V had some GREAT Pokemon.

This generation, however, somehow feels different.

Nothing wrong with Vanillite or it's evolutions. What is "bad" and "good" is completely subjective. There isn't anything wrong with any Pokemon, each Pokemon is liked, each Pokemon is disliked.

[Zachmac]

Nothing wrong with Vanillite or it's evolutions. What is "bad" and "good" is completely subjective. There isn't anything wrong with any Pokemon, each Pokemon is liked, each Pokemon is disliked.

Exactly. I hate Garbodor, but I don't complain about it since there are people out there who like it. I've seen people who hate Chespin, yet it's my favorite out of the three so far.

[Ungoliath]

Nothing wrong with Vanillite or it's evolutions. What is "bad" and "good" is completely subjective. There isn't anything wrong with any Pokemon, each Pokemon is liked, each Pokemon is disliked.

A poor design, an awful defense (Since Fighting is strong against it's not something that you can call "good" or efficient )and It has an extremely shallow movepool. When it comes to design, the whole line evolution is only an abuse of the original concept repeated without any good twist about it. I actually like Vanillite, Vanillish is a good evolution when it comes to design but...Vanilluxe is just one more body attached to it. Which is awful.

In that regard, it's why I never liked other Pokemon with such characteristics anyway. I think Electrode, Magnemite, Klink line and even Sololosis line sucks because they couldn't take the concept further and explore the shape a bit more. With this I mean...We could have lived without Duosion, Magneton, Klang, Voltorb, or Vanilluxe and you wouldn't miss anything. Because the other missing stages, the final ones, doesn't bring anything interesting to the table when it comes to design.
Anyway, at least Magnezone is damn useful.

And yes, there is something wrong. Obviously, taste is something we shouldn't discuss because there is something for each one. But design is a bit more of a fine matter and it can be discussed with technical terms.

[Ironfish]

Now, I DO NOT believe that Chespin looks anything like Oshawott (they're cute mammalian starters who could pass for PikaClones. That is ALL)....BUT, to play devil's advocate!!

    Spoiler:- Trend??:

Show Spoiler

 

 

...if this happens in Gen VII....I may be inclined to change my stance on the Chespin/Oshawott debate.

But seriously though, saying Chespin looks like Oshawott is just as bad as saying Fennekin looks like Vulpix/Zorua/Glameow. It annoys the fans of both sides.

Chespin and Fennekin fans, why not drop the argument and direct our energy towards something more deserving: Making sure Froakie doesn't become more popular than our favorites. lol j/k, j/k

I'm with you all the way

A poor design, an awful defense (Since Fighting is strong against it's not something that you can call "good" or efficient )and It has an extremely shallow movepool. When it comes to design, the whole line evolution is only an abuse of the original concept repeated without any good twist about it. I actually like Vanillite, Vanillish is a good evolution when it comes to design but...Vanilluxe is just one more body attached to it. Which is awful.

well of sure it's a pokemon designed by James Turner not by mr. Sugimori. Turner isn't bad he did designed Golurk and Mandibuzz

[Zachmac]

A poor design, an awful defense (Since Fighting is strong against it's not something that you can call "good" or efficient )and It has an extremely shallow movepool. When it comes to design, the whole line evolution is only an abuse of the original concept repeated without any good twist about it. I actually like Vanillite, Vanillish is a good evolution when it comes to design but...Vanilluxe is just one more body attached to it. Which is awful.

In that regard, it's why I never liked other Pokemon with such characteristics anyway. I think Electrode, Magnemite, Klink line and even Sololosis line sucks because they couldn't take the concept further and explore the shape a bit more. With this I mean...We could have lived without Duosion, Magneton, Klang, Voltorb, or Vanilluxe and you wouldn't miss anything. Because the other missing stages, the final ones, doesn't bring anything interesting to the table when it comes to design.
Anyway, at least Magnezone is damn useful.

And yes, there is something wrong. Obviously, taste is something we shouldn't discuss because there is something for each one. But design is a bit more of a fine matter and it can be discussed with technical terms.

And, what if, someone liked to have it work out like that. The point of evolution is to become stronger. I honestly like Magneton better then Magnemite.

Yeah, we can get technical with design all we want, but that doesn't change the fact that rather a pokemon is good or not is opinion based. I could argue that ghastly is an awful design just because it's a floating ball with a face, and no other real significant features to it's design, and yet, I'm sure that you'd still argue that it's a good pokemon.

Likewise, the Vanniluxe line gets it's appeal from being kind of silly. Pokemon isn't meant to be taken too seriously, and some people really like goofy designs like living ice cream. And Vanniluxe is a significant change. It's got two heads and a straw, which actually makes it look quite a bit different. Vannish has the large, pointed cone and an all around less infantile appearance.

And ice isn't a bad typing because of fighting alone, it's that it has a lot of weakness and only one resistance. If you end up against a fighting type, just swap out. Most competitive players at least will agree that steel is an excellent type because of all it's resistances, and yet, it's weak to steel. But I don't think type matchup is a fair thing to bring up when discussing concepts.

[Ungoliath]

well of sure it's a pokemon designed by James Turner not by mr. Sugimori. Turner isn't bad he did designed Golurk and Mandibuzz

There are concepts of Sugimori that don't work either xD Anyway, I don't bash on them. I just think it ended wrong.

And, what if, someone liked to have it work out like that. The point of evolution is to become stronger. I honestly like Magneton better then Magnemite.

A million of people can like Justin Bieber as well. We could argue that its matter of tastes, but technically speaking He doesn't offer that much to music.

Yeah, we can get technical with design all we want, but that doesn't change the fact that rather a pokemon is good or not is opinion based. I could argue that ghastly is an awful design just because it's a floating ball with a face, and no other real significant features to it's design, and yet, I'm sure that you'd still argue that it's a good pokemon.

Good or Bad are awful terms. Let's just change them for "bad design" and "good design" for now. And well, you could argue it but you've to look the context first. If the objective is to reach Gengar then Ghastly accomplish it without being repetitive. See all I wrote in the previous post to see why I don't think Vanilluxe has "good design" before we continue to argue.

Likewise, the Vanniluxe line gets it's appeal from being kind of silly. Pokemon isn't meant to be taken too seriously, and some people really like goofy designs like living ice cream. And Vanniluxe is a significant change. It's got two heads and a straw, which actually makes it look quite a bit different. Vannish has the large, pointed cone and an all around less infantile appearance.

I don't care for appeal in this discussion. And well, we have another subjective matter here. Why not to take seriously? Please, answer honestly.
And tow heads doesn't make something more interesting. Let's look at Deino line: There you can see an interesting development of multiple heads. Hydreigon is not just a Zweilous with another head, the design follows the concept while adding new elements that complete the whole idea of dark puppeteers.

And ice isn't a bad typing because of fighting alone, it's that it has a lot of weakness and only one resistance. If you end up against a fighting type, just swap out. Most competitive players at least will agree that steel is an excellent type because of all it's resistances, and yet, it's weak to steel.

Ice is not a bad typing if done accordingly. For Vanilluxe, the fact that He's bulky and remains on NU speaks a lot of how GF did not made it interesting for competitive players.

[Ironfish]

Ice is not a bad typing if done accordingly. For Vanilluxe, the fact that He's bulky and remains on NU speaks a lot of how GF did not made it interesting for competitive players.

and it's the only type immune to hail another perk

[Zachmac]

Good or Bad are awful terms. Let's just change them for "bad design" and "good design" for now. And well, you could argue it but you've to look the context first. If the objective is to reach Gengar then Ghastly accomplish it without being repetitive. See all I wrote in the previous post to see why I don't think Vanilluxe has "good design" before we continue to argue.

You're trying to define what's good and bad, when the definition is really different to everyone. Especially when speaking about a design.

There is no direct definition to what is a "good design". It has a different meaning to everyone. To you, it has to change enough through evolution to be good, but isn't that just you? I see nothing wrong with Vanilite evolving into Vanilish, even if they are the same concept. You might, but no matter how technical you get, good is still based on opinion, even if another word is stuck to the end.

[Ungoliath]

Now we're going relativists? Ok, we just can't discuss, Can't we?

In that case allow me to say something: Let people complain if they want to, since each person's taste is different from others. So if I say I don't like Vanilluxe for multiple and listed reasons and you can only answer that taste is subjective, then it's better to remain silent.
Because you wont be answering, you'll only make another example of the Strawhat fallacy.

EDIT: Something you should think: Good design is DEFINED as the one that works well and it's efficient. So...