Starter Speculation/Discussion Thread [Read First Post]

[Mr. Cuddles]

I think about chespin as sneasel, good attack and great speed but no defences.

[AzureNova]

I think about chespin as sneasel, good attack and great speed but no defences.

So like it would be the 2nd coming of Sceptile then.

[Yveltal96]

I think he might have decent defenses
But I do see him being fast and strong physically

[Shine]

yeah, I can see Chespin being the physical version of Sceptile.

the arguable unusability of Chikorita.

I don't think it's even arguable, it's kinda hard to use Chiko when the first two Gyms are killing it (they resist Grass move AND inflict SE damage to Grass), it has almost nothing other than Grass and Normal moves, and most of its moves are support-based, while all the other starters are offense-based. Also, in future Gens, the only time you can give it better coverage moves tends to be post-game.

Yes, I know Snivy's base stats is similar to Chiko, but at least Snivy has its amazing Speed, access to Coil (one of the best stat-up move in the game), and the first two Gyms didn't kill it (well in B2/W2, only the first Gym). And it can get Aerial Ace via TM, as well as Aqua Tail (in B2/W2), before you even reached the seventh Gym. Which means during the storyline it has slightly better coverage compared to Chikorita.

It's kinda sad, because I actually like the very feminine design of the Chikorita line.

[your boss]

yeah, I can see Chespin being the physical version of Sceptile.





I don't think it's even arguable, it's kinda hard to use Chiko when the first two Gyms are killing it (they resist Grass move AND inflict SE damage to Grass), it has almost nothing other than Grass and Normal moves, and most of its moves are support-based, while all the other starters are offense-based. Also, in future Gens, the only time you can give it better coverage moves tends to be post-game.

Yes, I know Snivy's base stats is similar to Chiko, but at least Snivy has its amazing Speed, access to Coil (one of the best stat-up move in the game), and the first two Gyms didn't murder it (well in B2/W2, only the first Gym). And it can get Aerial Ace via TM, as well as Aqua Tail (in B2/W2), before you even reached the seventh Gym. Which means during the storyline it has slightly better coverage compared to Chikorita.

It's kinda sad, because I actually like the very feminine design of the Chikorita line.

It should also be noted that it's nigh unusable against Silver as it's weak to five of his Pokemon, Kadabra/Alakazam being the exception, I hope none of the starters ever go down Chikorita's pathetic ever this generation.

[Mr. Cuddles]

Chikorita is actually my fav 2nd gen starter, but only because i don't like the designs of the other 2, But I agree that is it pretty weak compared to the other 2.

[Taodragon]

It should also be noted that it's nigh unusable against Silver as it's weak to five of his Pokemon, Kadabra/Alakazam being the exception, I hope none of the starters ever go down Chikorita's pathetic ever this generation.

Not just him or the first gyms either. Poor Chikorita is resisted by the fourth, sixth and eighth gyms on top of the first two, is only effective against the 7th due to all three Pokemon being weak to grass (and even then they have ice typing) and has to deal with Team Rocket and their legion of poison types. Honestly, GF must have been feeling sadistic when they were designing that game.

[adl222]

Not just him or the first gyms either. Poor Chikorita is resisted by the fourth, sixth and eighth gyms, is only effective against the 7th due to all three Pokemon being weak to grass (and even then they have ice typing) and has to deal with Team Rocket and their legion of poison types. Honestly, GF must have been feeling sadistic when they were designing that game.

like someone already said it has little offensive capabilities. Its movepool is very limited and its made to be nothing more than a wall. Which is ridiculous because it has the same stats as Venusuar except for def and sp.def being switched but lacks poison typing or any dual type to be as effective as venusaur

[Aurath8]

I absolutely loved the 5th gen starters, especially Serperior's utility, Samurott's mixed capabilities and Emboar's hard hitting attack. I disliked Gen 2 starters because of Cyndaquil being a statistacal ripoff of Charmander and the arguably unusability of Chikorita. I liked Todadile however because of his design, then again I like all Pokemon's designs.

On topic, I would like to see more Water/Dark Pokemon but personally I can't see Froakie fitting in that criteria.

Huh, I found the Gen 5 starters to be quite lacking statistically.
Serperior is only good in BW2 thanks to the move tutors and even then I had to trade it to BW to learn Calm Mind. Otherwise it's movepool really sucks, and doesn't redeem itself elsewhere except with its speed. Samurott has decent stats and movepool but that's it. Decent. It doesn't have enough of anything to do anything. Not enough speed to sweep, not enough bulk to tank and no setup moves besides Swords Dance. Emboar has a bit of a mismatched typing and stats. Fire/Fighting screams fast offensive sweeper, and it has the right movepool to become another Infernape or Blaziken but Flame Charge isn't enough to redeem that speed. When it comes to the fire fighters it's as if the speed is directly proportional to viability.

Anyway, in the end the way I measure how good a starter is is how often I think 'I want to use that instead' as I go through the region. For example I'd pick Darmanitan, Chandelure, Magmortar and Arcanine over Emboar while going through White 2, which is at least 2 too many.

like someone already said it has little offensive capabilities. Its movepool is very limited and its made to be nothing more than a wall. Which is ridiculous because it has the same stats as Venusuar except for def and sp.def being switched but lacks poison typing or any dual type to be as effective as venusaur

Don't forget Bulbasaur was advantageous against the first 2 gyms. A starter is limited by or benefits from the region it's in. I'm sure Chikorita would be a bit better in Gen 1 than Gen 2 and vice versa for Bulbasaur.

[Shine]

I hope none of the starters ever go down Chikorita's pathetic ever this generation.

Yeah, hopefully Chespin, Fennekin, and Froakie won't suffer from the same bad fate, especially since this is the second Gen after the "reboot" on 5th Gen.....

Especially Chespin. One Grass starter and one Fire/Water starter suffering the same bad fate is still okay, compared to TWO Grass starters suffering the same bad fate.

[adamfitz]

Well I chose chickorita and yes it was thought at first but I loved it solo much, my favorite starter to date
I love the design and is good with the right strategy, As for gyms after that you should definitely have more Pokemon by then. I liked the challenge anyway....

____________

For those saying Chespin will be fast.
I can see it yes and would like it but he is based of a hedgehog and I can see him more becoming a bulky slow defender tank

I could see Chespin been fast is he was fighting
How about Chespin grass fighting, fennekin fire dark and froakie water psychic....
Just switching it up abit....

________

As for froakies bubbles, Chespin hat and fennekins ear fluff,
How do you think the designs will go?
These are their primary/main features
I don't want game freak to go overboard with them
Like covering froakie in foam all over.....

[Papousse]

Choosing Chikorita in HG or SS wasn't a challenge, either a disadvantage. I actually lived that sensation because Chikorita was my starter in this game and I was very happy of my choice.Chikorita was, I agree, not the best Pokémon against Falkner and Bugsy. But that's just the type that we count here.

Falkner, the first Gym Leader, had a Pidgey with... Tackle and Sand-attack. Surprise ! Chikorita can handle it ! Next, he had Pidgeotto, wich is much more challenging than a little Pidgey. This Pokémon had Gust, Roost and Tackle. Now Chikorita is a little bit in danger, but it's still possible. With hard training or potions, it's possible. Don't forget that you can have a Togepi to help you out, or other Pokémon such as Hoothoot, Pidgey, Bellsprout and even an Onix if you trade it for a Bellsprout in Violet City. Same goes for Bugsy.
Chikorita has the disadvantage type, yes, but it's not her, the problem, it's the team that you decide to use against the gyms. So don't tell me that Chikorita was crap just because miss wasn't the type advantage.

[JBreese]

Only just realised I can have a full team of starters of one particular type.

Also I've been looking up frogs and come across the poison dart frog, which is bright blue. Any chance froakie may become water/poison.
Further research/Wikipedia indicates the poison dart frog is one of the few frog species that currys its eggs on its back in a group of white bubbles.

[Demon Kitsune Yoko Kurama]

Choosing Chikorita in HG or SS wasn't a challenge, either a disadvantage. I actually lived that sensation because Chikorita was my starter in this game and I was very happy of my choice.Chikorita was, I agree, not the best Pokémon against Falkner and Bugsy. But that's just the type that we count here.

Falkner, the first Gym Leader, had a Pidgey with... Tackle and Sand-attack. Surprise ! Chikorita can handle it ! Next, he had Pidgeotto, wich is much more challenging than a little Pidgey. This Pokémon had Gust, Roost and Tackle. Now Chikorita is a little bit in danger, but it's still possible. With hard training or potions, it's possible. Don't forget that you can have a Togepi to help you out, or other Pokémon such as Hoothoot, Pidgey, Bellsprout and even an Onix if you trade it for a Bellsprout in Violet City. Same goes for Bugsy.
Chikorita has the disadvantage type, yes, but it's not her, the problem, it's the team that you decide to use against the gyms. So don't tell me that Chikorita was crap just because miss wasn't the type advantage.

Haha, now that's a way of defending your Starter Pokemon. I loved using my Chikorita as well in the Johto games.

[Yveltal96]

Not just him or the first gyms either. Poor Chikorita is resisted by the fourth, sixth and eighth gyms on top of the first two, is only effective against the 7th due to all three Pokemon being weak to grass (and even then they have ice typing) and has to deal with Team Rocket and their legion of poison types. Honestly, GF must have been feeling sadistic when they were designing that game.

And the only gym chikorita is useful in is Brock and mistys gym in SS

[Ninfia-Fan]

I would much rather it be like this:

Chespin - Grass/Fighting 5 weaknesses
Fennekin - Fire/Psychic 5 weaknesses
Froakie - Water/Dark 4 weaknesses

Why would you guys want Chespin to end up as a Grass/Dark? it would have 6 weaknesses there is a reason why we haven't had a Grass/Dark pokemon since 3rd Gen for a reason. The reason many people don't even choose the grass starter or rather just a grass type pokemon is because they get screwed over and they don't have any good moves aside from a couple of moves like Energy Ball, Leaf Blade and Leaf Storm. A Grass/Fighting pokemon would be able to take out more pokemon thanks to the fighting moves against Dark, Ice, Normal and Steel types. In addition to Grass moves against Water, Ground and Rock. This would give Chespin in total 7 advantages. If Chespin ends up as a Grass/Dark it would only have 5 measly advantages while it has 6 weaknesses does that seem like a pokemon you would want in comparison?

Fennekin would also have 7 advantages while having 5 weaknesses. Fire against Grass, Bug, Ice and Steel. While Psychic against Poison, Fighting and Ghost.

Froakie would have 5 advantages and 4 weaknesses. Water against Fire, Ground and Rock. While Dark against Psychic and Ghost.

Hold on. If we have the types being like what are at the top of the quote, then Cespin will be doubly weak to fennekin, Fennekin doubly weak to froakie and Froakie doubly weak to chespin. That unbalances the starter triangle. which i why it makes most sense if the pokemon types become this:

Chespin: Grass/Dark
Fennekin: Fire/Psychic
Froakie: Water/Fighting

So that way, each will be strong but also weak to the other Pokemon.

[stevencloser]

How would doubling the weakness each of the starters has unbalance the starter triangle? Everything stays the same only that you can choose which STAB move to hit the weaker one with.

[Pochie ~]

About that Chikorita discussion...

She may not be the best pokémon against Falkner and Bugsy, but it's not like pokémon is a hard game. Bayleef can handle Falkner easily, and even if you see him as a challenge, you can catch a Mareep or another pokémon of your choice. n_n

I love her design and I think she's a great starter. I don't pick a starter thinking about the gym leaders, I pick the one that I like the most. :3

[Ninfia-Fan]

Example:

Chespin: Grass fighting. Fire beats grass/Psychic beats Fighting
Fennekin: Fire/Psychic. water beats Fire. Dark beats psychic.
Froakie: Water/dark. Grass beast water. Fighting beats dark.

If they were like this:

Chespin: grass/dark/ Grass beats water, but fighting beats dark.
Fennekin: Fire/Psychic. fire beats grass but dark beats Pschyc
Froakie: Water/Fighting. Water beats ire, but Psychic beats fighting

If this is confusing, sorry. But it's ho I understand it.

[adl222]

Example:

Chespin: Grass fighting. Fire beats grass/Psychic beats Fighting
Fennekin: Fire/Psychic. water beats Fire. Dark beats psychic.
Froakie: Water/dark. Grass beast water. Fighting beats dark.

If they were like this:

Chespin: grass/dark/ Grass beats water, but fighting beats dark.
Fennekin: Fire/Psychic. fire beats grass but dark beats Pschyc
Froakie: Water/Fighting. Water beats ire, but Psychic beats fighting

it still forms the same triangles as grass > water >fire > grass.
the second set you posted gives the opposing type a chance to defeat the other.