View Poll Results: Which starter would you use?

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  • Chespin

    845 26.83%
  • Fennekin

    1,329 42.19%
  • Froakie

    849 26.95%
  • NONE, Dunsparce looks better

    127 4.03%
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Thread: Starter Speculation/Discussion Thread

  1. #9326
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    @cascade, you missed my comment about Torterra...you do realize that Ground typing helps against Empoleon anyway? So the weakness advantage is kept intact.
    Exactly, the same could work with a starter that is a Dragon-Type. As I already stated in my previous post: it can be remedied by giving the other starter the respective secondary-type or move pool to counter them.


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    IMO, dragon types as a side typing for starters is kind of cheap. Dragon type is the most OP type in the entire Pokeverse, and it resists water, grass, fire and electric, and three of them are primary types. I don't think that having the rivalling Pokemon having an ice typing will help it, since gym leaders are part of a game, having a dragon mon would be much too op. That's why most dragons are rare (barring Trapinch/Swablu, both of which don't start out dragon anyways) and having a dragon starter is, IMO, too overpowered.

    Anyways, Charizard and Serperior is better off without a side dragon typing. Imagine if you chose Venusaur in Gen 1 *shudders*. As for Gen 5, it's hilarious how late you can find Ice Beam in the game. So if you choose a Samurott, you're pretty much toast. The ice types in the games are great either, Beartic, Vanilluxe, Cryogonal and Kyurem, which is find for both games, post-game.

    So either they have to nerf the dragon typing, or just don't give it for starters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    Exactly, the same could work with a starter that is a Dragon-Type. As I already stated in my previous post: it can be remedied by giving the other starter the respective secondary-type or move pool to counter them.
    Except, you missed one thing, compared to secondary typings from Gen IV, having a dragon typing already give you so many advantages from an offensive and defensive standpoint. You get a ton of resistances to common types, which will give you (potentially) an IMMENSE advantage against other trainers and gym leaders. This is why I said it defeats the symbolic purpose of Pokemon. What's the point of going on an adventure when you would just have literally one pokemon to pwn almost everything? Pokemon has always been about challenges (otherwise, we wouldn't be documenting our struggles with Miltanks/Kingdras/other gym leaders/elite fours etc.). A Dragon-type starter cheapens the feel IMO.

    Moreover, at least with the Sinnoh Trio, you're able to fight back against each other with either the primary or secondary typing, which was unique and awesome at the same time. With the Dragon-typing you're handcuffed from a design standpoint: you're left with two typings to specifically counter dragons...Ice and Dragon. Now based on the trends thus far, GF wouldn't give the same type to another starter type since it would be lazy and repetitive. Meaning you're left with Fire/Ice (which doesn't make sense IMO...) and Water/Ice (which is plausible as potential typing). Even then you're suffering from potentially lazy designing by having them both be Ice types...meaning that you'll have to rely on movepools for at least one of the types. Which isn't fair IMO, at least not compared to Sinnoh trio.

  4. #9329
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    I'l be picking Fennekin since he looks the coolest out of the three and since I like Dogs, Foxes etc.

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    i was gonna use chespin because it seems unpredictable, but i think i'm actually gonna choose froakie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    Except, you missed one thing, compared to secondary typings from Gen IV, having a dragon typing already give you so many advantages from an offensive and defensive standpoint. You get a ton of resistances to common types, which will give you (potentially) an IMMENSE advantage against other trainers and gym leaders. This is why I said it defeats the symbolic purpose of Pokemon. What's the point of going on an adventure when you would just have literally one pokemon to pwn almost everything? Pokemon has always been about challenges (otherwise, we wouldn't be documenting our struggles with Miltanks/Kingdras/other gym leaders/elite fours etc.). A Dragon-type starter cheapens the feel IMO.
    You seem to forget that Empoleon did not get it's Steel typing until it's final form, which is typically around Mid-late game. Steel-type is a very powerful type as well defensively, in fact it's one of the best types with it's 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Empoleon still got it. To add onto what I previously said they could also remedy that by making it so it's final evolution only gets the Dragon-Type.

    Moreover, at least with the Sinnoh Trio, you're able to fight back against each other with either the primary or secondary typing, which was unique and awesome at the same time. With the Dragon-typing you're handcuffed from a design standpoint: you're left with two typings to specifically counter dragons...Ice and Dragon. Now based on the trends thus far, GF wouldn't give the same type to another starter type since it would be lazy and repetitive. Meaning you're left with Fire/Ice (which doesn't make sense IMO...) and Water/Ice (which is plausible as potential typing). Even then you're suffering from potentially lazy designing by having them both be Ice types...meaning that you'll have to rely on movepools for at least one of the types. Which isn't fair IMO, at least not compared to Sinnoh trio.
    There is more to a pokemon than it's typing you know. There is stat distribution, move pool etc. There are plenty of ways to prevent it from becoming overpowered. That;s why i also stated they could give the other starter the respective move pool and/or stat distribution to counter them.

    Whether or not you feel using a Dragon-type starter is cheap that's your opinion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    You seem to forget that Empoleon did not get it's Steel typing until it's final form, which is typically around Mid-late game. Steel-type is a very powerful type as well defensively, in fact it's one of the best types with it's 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Empoleon still got it. To add onto what I previously said they could also remedy that by making it so it's final evolution only gets the Dragon-Type.
    Steel types don't have a great variety of moves though nor do they have many strengths so steel isn't nearly as strong as what dragon would be. Having only the final evo dragon could help a little but not much considering you get most final evo starters around mid game (except Johto) leaving you with ridiculous power for atleast 3 gym towns.



    There is more to a pokemon than it's typing you know. There is stat distribution, move pool etc. There are plenty of ways to prevent it from becoming overpowered. That;s why i also stated they could give the other starter the respective move pool and/or stat distribution to counter them.

    Whether or not you feel using a Dragon-type starter is cheap that's your opinion.
    Yeah you're right about what makes a Pokemon good but all starter Pokemon get atleast 2 good enough stat lines (as in attack, defense etc) and dragon types have ridiculous move pools. Can't every dragon learn flamethrower and water pulse as well as a lot of other different typed moves?

    I could see what your saying on an early Pokemon with the final evo being dragon but starters are good enough to old for themselves without a secondary type, so to add in the dragon type would make it so overpowered compared to anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golduck#1 View Post
    Steel types don't have a great variety of moves though nor do they have many strengths so steel isn't nearly as strong as what dragon would be.
    I said defensively Steel-type is one of the best types. So Steel-type is much more stronger than Dragon-type in that aspect.

    Having only the final evo dragon could help a little but not much considering you get most final evo starters around mid game (except Johto) leaving you with ridiculous power for atleast 3 gym towns.
    You're hyping up the Dragon-Type more than it is. At that point in the game there will be more powerful Pokemon. So no, you won't have "ridiculous" power for at least 3 gyms. Especially if they did make Serperior a Dragon-Type because in BW 7th Gym: Ice-type, 8th Gym: Dragon-Type. and Dragon moved to 7th gym in B2/W2

    Yeah you're right about what makes a Pokemon good but all starter Pokemon get atleast 2 good enough stat lines (as in attack, defense etc) and dragon types have ridiculous move pools. Can't every dragon learn flamethrower and water pulse as well as a lot of other different typed moves?

    I could see what your saying on an early Pokemon with the final evo being dragon but starters are good enough to old for themselves without a secondary type, so to add in the dragon type would make it so overpowered compared to anything else.
    You seem to missed the part where I said move-pool and/or stat distribution. That is huge in determining how powerful a pokemon can be. They can remedy this as well.


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  9. #9334
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    You seem to forget that Empoleon did not get it's Steel typing until it's final form, which is typically around Mid-late game. Steel-type is a very powerful type as well defensively, in fact it's one of the best types with it's 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Empoleon still got it. To add onto what I previously said they could also remedy that by making it so it's final evolution only gets the Dragon-Type.
    You do realize Steel is the worst offensive type in comparison to Dragon? Sure it has amazing defensive properties. But in offense, it has a downright terrible variety of moves and has mediocre offensive coverage at least compared to Dragons. If Golduck#1 is hyping dragons, then you're easily hyping Steel.

    Leaving it to mid-end game still means that you will be curbstomping through the game with little to no challenge (like golduck said...at least by 3 maybe more towns). Defeating the purpose of the game in the first place. Traditionally speaking, Dragons have always been a rare encounter/difficult to train and having one through a starter (or its evo) again cheapens the exclusivity of dragon type.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    There is more to a pokemon than it's typing you know. There is stat distribution, move pool etc. There are plenty of ways to prevent it from becoming overpowered. That;s why i also stated they could give the other starter the respective move pool and/or stat distribution to counter them.

    Whether or not you feel using a Dragon-type starter is cheap that's your opinion.
    I don't just look at the moves and stat distribution, I also look at overall design. I mean Fire already got shafted from Dragon type moves (with the exception of Arcanine and Charizard, who are the ONLY viable fire types that can learn some dragon moves). There could also be a case where a starter is given a worthless move like Outrage when it is specially offensive, which helps no one (imagine a Charizard if it hadn't gotten Dragon Pulse). I would rather have something like the Sinnoh trio where each type has a chance to beat the other.

    Still, the point is that Serperior does not fit as a Dragon-type. Yes, it is a serpent, but many other serpentine Pokemon haven't gotten the dragon type slapped onto them, and they're fine...Serperior is fine then. Especially when it will have Contrary by the time DW Snivy is released. Therefore, from a balance and design standpoint, it doesn't need a dragon type slapped onto it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    I said defensively Steel-type is one of the best types. So Steel-type is much more stronger than Dragon-type in that aspect.



    You're hyping up the Dragon-Type more than it is. At that point in the game there will be more powerful Pokemon. So no, you won't have "ridiculous" power for at least 3 gyms. Especially if they did make Serperior a Dragon-Type because in BW 7th Gym: Ice-type, 8th Gym: Dragon-Type. and Dragon moved to 7th gym in B2/W2
    No I am not at all. Even though there will be more powerful Pokemon, you will infact be stronger and probably have an easy 6 or 7 levels above the trainers in the game not to mention about 9 or 10 levels higher than the wild Pokemon which will slowly decrease to the last gym, which is why I said 3 gym towns (meaning you get your final evo at the end of the fourth) and that's not including the storyline and other towns you will have to visit on the way to the final badge. So really you won't be challenged until the last gym seeing as you will indeed be higher leveled as well as the dragon typing.





    You seem to missed the part where I said move-pool and/or stat distribution. That is huge in determining how powerful a pokemon can be. They can remedy this as well.
    Nope I thought I covered it but I'll repeat. Dragon types have a ridiculous op variety movepool meaning straight away the Pokemon has a good move pool. It is also a starter meaning it will get good stats as well. So combinding both makes it even worse. How could they edit it to make it worse? Make it the only dragon Pokemon to have a bad move pool and the onlyy starter to have bad stats?

    Edit: To continue on, I agree wth BWK that just because it is a serpant doesn't mean it should be dragon and because it isn't as good as some other Pokemon, it doesn't warrant an OP typing.
    Last edited by golduck#1; 17th March 2013 at 7:49 AM.
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  11. #9336
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    You do realize Steel is the worst offensive type in comparison to Dragon? Sure it has amazing defensive properties. But in offense, it has a downright terrible variety of moves and has mediocre offensive coverage at least compared to Dragons. If Golduck#1 is hyping dragons, then you're easily hyping Steel.
    I wasn't referring to the offensive capabilities I was referring to the defensive capabilities. I am not hyping Steel. It's almost a given that Steel-type is better than Dragon-Type defensively. Also, the move pool has more to do with the Pokemon it's self rather than the type it has. There a some Steel type's that have good move pools as there are Dragon's that have bad.

    Leaving it to mid-end game still means that you will be curbstomping through the game with little to no challenge (like golduck said...at least by 3 maybe more towns). Defeating the purpose of the game in the first place. Traditionally speaking, Dragons have always been a rare encounter/difficult to train and having one through a starter (or its evo) again cheapens the exclusivity of dragon type.
    I already explained that at the point in which you could probably obtain the Dragon-type there will be more powerful opponents. By which point Dragon-Types are usually available. You won't necessarily be curb stomping anyone because there is more to a Pokemon than just their typing. Take Serperior for example it has pretty mediocre offensive stats. You honestly expect me to believe that it will be "curbstomping" almost everything in it's path? What? No. You are just hyping the Dragon-type to be more then what it is.

    Also, are starters not rare? I mean you can typically only obtain one in the entire region so I'd say having one as a Dragon-Type would fit the "rareness" factor. As for the hard to train, there's always an exception.

    Still, the point is that Serperior does not fit as a Dragon-type. Yes, it is a serpent, but many other serpentine Pokemon haven't gotten the dragon type slapped onto them, and they're fine...Serperior is fine then. Especially when it will have Contrary by the time DW Snivy is released. Therefore, from a balance and design standpoint, it doesn't need a dragon type slapped onto it.
    Well I was never arguing that Serperior should be a Dragon Type. I was just saying Dragon-Type for a starter Pokemon won't necessarily be as OP and broken as you all think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by golduck#1 View Post
    No I am not at all. Even though there will be more powerful Pokemon, you will infact be stronger and probably have an easy 6 or 7 levels above the trainers in the game not to mention about 9 or 10 levels higher than the wild Pokemon which will slowly decrease to the last gym, which is why I said 3 gym towns (meaning you get your final evo at the end of the fourth) and that's not including the storyline and other towns you will have to visit on the way to the final badge. So really you won't be challenged until the last gym seeing as you will indeed be higher leveled as well as the dragon typing.
    In fact be stronger? So I take it you account for every trainer then? Ok.
    Final evo by end of 4th gym? Wow you must be training a lot to get one at that point.

    Of course if you over level you will really have no challenge regardless of type. -_-
    And no the Dragon typing does not contribute to you being OP

    Nope I thought I covered it but I'll repeat. Dragon types have a ridiculous op variety movepool meaning straight away the Pokemon has a good move pool. It is also a starter meaning it will get good stats as well. So combinding both makes it even worse. How could they edit it to make it worse? Make it the only dragon Pokemon to have a bad move pool and the onlyy starter to have bad stats?
    Typically Dragon-Types have good move pools but not all do. You can't group them all together. The move pool has more to do with the Pokemon it's self rather than the type it has.
    Last edited by cascadethewarrior; 17th March 2013 at 8:16 AM.


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  12. #9337
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    In fact be stronger? So I take it you account for every trainer then? Ok.
    Final evo by end of 4th gym? Wow you must be training a lot to get one at that point.
    Not really. Kanto, Sinnoh, Hoenn and Unova are all pretty easy to get your levels up. It's not like I trained just one Pokemon either, I always have a team of 6. I'm sure almost a lot of people have a Charizard/Blastoise/ Venusaur by Erika, Infernape/ Torterra/ Empoleon by Wake and etc. It's really not that hard and requires little training.

    Of course if you over level you will really have no challenge regardless of type. -_-
    And no the Dragon typing does not contribute to you being OP



    Typically Dragon-Types have good move pools but not all do. You can't group them all together. The move pool has more to do with the Pokemon it's self rather than the type it has.
    Actually all dragon types have good move pools (if we are of course only counting final evos/ only evo's to back up your point). While I'll agree some have to do with the Pokemon itself, giving the Pokemon a dragon typing pretty much allows more moves to be added (Altaria with flamethrower and EQ, Flygon with giga drain and signal beam).
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  13. #9338
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    Quote Originally Posted by golduck#1 View Post
    Not really. Kanto, Sinnoh, Hoenn and Unova are all pretty easy to get your levels up. It's not like I trained just one Pokemon either, I always have a team of 6. I'm sure almost a lot of people have a Charizard/Blastoise/ Venusaur by Erika, Infernape/ Torterra/ Empoleon by Wake and etc. It's really not that hard and requires little training.
    Of course this could be argued by changing the level distribution. In any case, having the Dragon-type does not = Win. There are still more factors to take into account.


    Actually all dragon types have good move pools (if we are of course only counting final evos/ only evo's to back up your point). While I'll agree some have to do with the Pokemon itself, giving the Pokemon a dragon typing pretty much allows more moves to be added (Altaria with flamethrower and EQ, Flygon with giga drain and signal beam).
    No actually...it doesn't...

    All move pools have more to do with the Pokemon itself rather than it's typing. Being a Dragon-type does not guarantee more moves to be added.


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    Anyone who thinks that any Dragon is automatically a powerful Pokemon has never seen a Druddigon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayze Darr View Post
    Anyone who thinks that any Dragon is automatically a powerful Pokemon has never seen a Druddigon.
    There is an exception to every rule. Doesn't change the fact that most Dragon types are usually very powerful compared to other types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hankka View Post
    There is an exception to every rule. Doesn't change the fact that most Dragon types are usually very powerful compared to other types.
    Well,this gen the whole "Dragon type is mystical" thing will change when Froakie evolves into a Water/Dragon.You'll see!You will all see!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nacreous View Post
    Well,this gen the whole "Dragon type is mystical" thing will change when Froakie evolves into a Water/Dragon.You'll see!You will all see!!!
    I can't even imagine what a dragon frog would look like lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hankka View Post
    There is an exception to every rule. Doesn't change the fact that most Dragon types are usually very powerful compared to other types.
    We aren't talking "most." The argument seems to be whether or not a starter can be a Dragon and not be OP. Druddigon proves that Dragons can, in fact, not be OP.
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    even Druddigon has its own strength. It has 120 base Attack, decent defenses (77 base HP along with 90 base Def and SDef), decent movepool, three decent abilities (especially Sheer Force and Mold Breaker), and it even performs well under Trick Room due to its low Speed.





    Still, I don't think we'll get a Dragon starter anytime soon. It seems like Game Freak already decided that Dragon will always be a mythical rare and powerful type, and they're not going to change the decision anytime soon (otherwise Gyarados would have been changed into a Dragon by now).
    Even Druddigon is available only near the end of the storyline, despite not being as powerful as other Dragons in terms of total base stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayze Darr View Post
    Anyone who thinks that any Dragon is automatically a powerful Pokemon has never seen a Druddigon.
    Every pokemon has is powerfull.
    Name a pokemon and I will EV train it and it will kill ya team :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadethewarrior View Post
    Of course this could be argued by changing the level distribution. In any case, having the Dragon-type does not = Win. There are still more factors to take into account.
    It could be done that way but with 1 out of 6 generation of games (whatever you want to call BW2) making it actually hard to train at all it's hard to make that arguement. No dragon does not equal automatic win but it just causes a lot of things to fall into it's favour, a lot more than what a starter Pokemon should have.




    No actually...it doesn't...

    All move pools have more to do with the Pokemon itself rather than it's typing. Being a Dragon-type does not guarantee more moves to be added.
    For some moves it does but tell me why Garchomp can learn Poison Jab, Altaria flamethrower, Dragonite thunderbolt, Haxoras Grass knot and Flygon giga drain. Then give me a reason why this dragon starter should also have a a pretty good movepool as well with a variety of moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayze Darr View Post
    Anyone who thinks that any Dragon is automatically a powerful Pokemon has never seen a Druddigon.
    I dunno, 372 attack isn't to be taken lightly, especially ingame. Also it has a good enough movepool to become pretty powerful as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golduck#1 View Post
    It could be done that way but with 1 out of 6 generation of games (whatever you want to call BW2) making it actually hard to train at all it's hard to make that arguement. No dragon does not equal automatic win but it just causes a lot of things to fall into it's favour, a lot more than what a starter Pokemon should have.
    Not really, it would have just as much chance as the other starters. Each starters has it's advantage and disadvantage compared to the other. This would be no different. For example, in Johto Chikorita has a disadvantage for the first 2 gyms compared to choosing Cyndaquil and Tododile.


    For some moves it does but tell me why Garchomp can learn Poison Jab, Altaria flamethrower, Dragonite thunderbolt, Haxoras Grass knot and Flygon giga drain. Then give me a reason why this dragon starter should also have a a pretty good movepool as well with a variety of moves.
    ...What? They learn the moves they learn because those moves are in their move pool not because they're Dragon-type...


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    Quote Originally Posted by golduck#1 View Post
    For some moves it does but tell me why Garchomp can learn Poison Jab, Altaria flamethrower, Dragonite thunderbolt, Haxoras Grass knot and Flygon giga drain. Then give me a reason why this dragon starter should also have a a pretty good movepool as well with a variety of moves.
    Garchomp: Big Claws= Poison Jab

    Altaria: Dragons Breath Fire=Flamethrower

    Dragonite: Thunderbolt=Dragonair seems to have some kinda control ever weather. (I believe it can learn all four weather changing moves.)

    Haxorus: Nearly every thing and it's mother can learn this. It's how I got past Wake on a Chimchar/Monferno/Infernape solo run.

    Flygon-Based on Insect-Insects suck and drain things.

    Any Pokemon can have wide movepools, it's mostly based on their design, not type.

    Back on Topic:

    I can see Fennekin having a wide movepool, as Fire-Type starters usually do, and if it turns part Psychic it'll be Ninetales done right probably have a wider movepool, as Psychic Pokemon control special energy to make special attacks (I believe this is the only time a Movepool is based with Type>Design in mind.)

    Froakie... Water types usually have Ice Beam, so that and Water moves are already a good coverage. Add in Fighting moves, (still believe Froakie used Close Combat!) and we have a nice coverage already!

    Chespin... I could see it learning X-Scissor for some reason.... Meh, It's the first mammalian Grass Starter, so maybe (w/ the exception of Dual Types) it'll be the first Grass starter w/ a good movepool?
    Last edited by MidnightFennekin; 17th March 2013 at 10:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightFennekin View Post
    Chespin... I could see it learning X-Scissor for some reason.... Meh, It's the first mammalian Grass Starter, so maybe (w/ the exception of Dual Types) it'll be the first Grass starter w/ a good movepool?
    Sceptile has a great movepool. Though yes, most of the moves are physical, even though its base stats leans more towards a special attacker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shine View Post
    Sceptile has a great movepool. Though yes, most of the moves are physical, even though its base stats leans more towards a special attacker.
    Maybe Chespin could be a better Sceptile

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