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Thread: Legendaries Speculation/Discussion Thread

  1. #6576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Going with the Norse theory and all... It can seem plausible to have a Pokemon inspired by a Valkyrie. Preferably a legendary Pokemon or even a trio of Valkyries. I always loved the idea of them. They can be half spirit creatures.
    An all female trio of Valkyries would be a good counter to the Kami trio


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  2. #6577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudster View Post
    An all female trio of Valkyries would be a good counter to the Kami trio
    Yeah I really agree! We dont not have a trio of females yet anyway. Maybe they can be based on Brynhildr, Hildr and Hrist/Gondul?
    Last edited by Seraphina; 10th April 2013 at 8:16 PM.

  3. #6578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Yeah I really agree! We dont not have a trio of females yet anyway. Maybe they can be based on Brynhildr, Hildr and Hrist/Gondul?
    So maybe Brynhildr could be Fire/Flying, Hildr be Steel/Flying, and Hrist being Fighting/Flying. That would be a cool valkyrie trio!
        Spoiler:- Just- lol:

  4. #6579
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenosectArceus View Post
    So maybe Brynhildr could be Fire/Flying, Hildr be Steel/Flying, and Hrist being Fighting/Flying. That would be a cool valkyrie trio!
    Well Hrist is most associated with the ground no? I think she would be Ground flying like Landorus. Also, Maybe something based on Odin since the Valkyries serve Odin? Yeah I am very fascinated in this stuff...
    Last edited by Seraphina; 10th April 2013 at 8:32 PM.

  5. #6580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Well Hrist is most associated with the ground no? I think she would be Ground flying like Landorus.
    I was just saying fighting so it wouldn't be a repetitive trio pattern since it would be a more female kami trio. Plus, I like tough girls. <3
    I just wouldn't want to encounter Hrist in a way we encountered Landorus! I don't want to have to need both Brynhildr and Hildr to get to Hrist. I never got Thundurus in Black so I just traded for a Landorus and never got Thundurus. I don't want it to be like that again.

    Furthermore, I would not want two trios this gen. It was good for 5th gen, but this gen I only want the valkyrie trio.
        Spoiler:- Just- lol:

  6. #6581
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenosectArceus View Post
    I was just saying fighting so it wouldn't be a repetitive trio pattern since it would be a more female kami trio. Plus, I like tough girls. <3
    I just wouldn't want to encounter Hrist in a way we encountered Landorus! I don't want to have to need both Brynhildr and Hildr to get to Hrist. I never got Thundurus in Black so I just traded for a Landorus and never got Thundurus. I don't want it to be like that again.

    Furthermore, I would not want two trios this gen. It was good for 5th gen, but this gen I only want the valkyrie trio.
    Ahaha I see what you mean. Yeah, I don't want another ground flying type either but it seems she would have a ground typing considering she is known as the earth shaker. Well yeah... I didnt really like the Kami trio anyway xD. I am with you on that.

  7. #6582
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozymandias_jones View Post
    Personally, I would define a God as a being which people worship as a God, which would make Arceus the only God in the Pokemon world (at least that we have seen so far). Mew and Mewtwo were not worshiped in any way, Groudon and Kyogre were only seen as the creators of Hoenn by dividing the land and sea, and to me it didn't feel as if they were actually worshiped, just seen as powerful beings. Similarly, Reshiram and Zekrom were powerful beings which assisted in the founding of Unova, similar to the Romulus and Remus legend, but still not really worshiped. Lugia and Ho-oh were arguably closer to being gods, as they were seen as guardians of their respective realms, but I still dont think they were seen as Gods, just powerful mystical beings.

    Arceus however, in Sinnoh, was definitely seen as a God, which can be seen from all of the NPC text you can read about him and his Dex entries which say he is believed to be the creator of the universe, and the church in Hearthome, which I don't believe was ever explicitly stated to be to Arceus, but I don't see what else it could be worshiping. If I recall correctly, this church is the only place of Worship we've seen in the games, which seems to suggest that Arceus is the only God.
    1) The church worships the relationship between people and Pokémon, not Arceus.

    2) Creator of the universe =/= God; and no, Arceus is never regarded as a figure of worship in any of the games. Most people don't even know he exists, and don't reference him in any way. Cynthia is the one who makes the big breakthrough about the three circles referring to the Spacetime Trio instead of the Lake Trio, with the larger circle referring to something greater than Dialga/Palkia.

    3) So basically, what you're saying is that if I get enough people to worship me, that automatically makes me a god? But what if I've just lied my way into that position? I'm not really transcendent, and I don't have any god-like powers (much to my chagrin), but supposedly just being worshiped is enough? So all of those Egyptian pharaohs and all of those Chinese/Roman/Inca/Japanese emperors, who were all deified by their respective cultures, actually were gods?

  8. #6583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    1) The church worships the relationship between people and Pokémon, not Arceus.

    2) Creator of the universe =/= God; and no, Arceus is never regarded as a figure of worship in any of the games. Most people don't even know he exists, and don't reference him in any way. Cynthia is the one who makes the big breakthrough about the three circles referring to the Spacetime Trio instead of the Lake Trio, with the larger circle referring to something greater than Dialga/Palkia.

    3) So basically, what you're saying is that if I get enough people to worship me, that automatically makes me a god? But what if I've just lied my way into that position? I'm not really transcendent, and I don't have any god-like powers (much to my chagrin), but supposedly just being worshiped is enough? So all of those Egyptian pharaohs and all of those Chinese/Roman/Inca/Japanese emperors, who were all deified by their respective cultures, actually were gods?
    That's deep man, I just want to play some Pokémon!

    I'm still hoping for an 'omega' Pokémon to counter Arceus, or at least another legendary with that base stat total - but one I want to use! Don't just give us one that is level 100 in an event - I only really use them when I'm levelling them up.


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    A god doesn't have to be worshiped to have god status. It simply must be a being with stong supernatural power and some sway over an aspect of the world.

    For example:
    Groudon creates the land
    Kyogre rules over the seas
    Rayquaza rules the skies
    Dialga has space
    Palkia has time
    Etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mew. View Post
    I guess you are a special one and do not fit under the "most people" category

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudster View Post
    That's deep man, I just want to play some Pokémon!

    I'm still hoping for an 'omega' Pokémon to counter Arceus, or at least another legendary with that base stat total - but one I want to use! Don't just give us one that is level 100 in an event - I only really use them when I'm levelling them up.
    I am hoping for an Omega pokemon as well. Glad to see you mention it. Yeah I agree though. You can always ev train them at level 100 I guess. That is better then nothing yeah?

  11. #6586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elnava View Post
    A god doesn't have to be worshiped to have god status. It simply must be a being with stong supernatural power and some sway over an aspect of the world.

    For example:
    Groudon creates the land
    Kyogre rules over the seas
    Rayquaza rules the skies
    Dialga has space
    Palkia has time
    Etc.
    Technically, all Pokémon have that. All Pokémon are gods? I don't think so. Some just have a greater control over various natural elements than others, but that's no different from one person being stronger or having more expertise in an area than another person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    I never said so. I just said IF. Yes I can clearly see the Shintoism links. I enjoyed the lecture before in case you did not notice. Yes I know that Arceus might not be all knowing and all powerful. I wont bother debating it anymore till we get official confirmation from the devs.
    I do apologize if I ended up seeming like I was lecturing you, I was just trying to make my point clear and it seems like I just overstated the previous point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Technically, all Pokémon have that. All Pokémon are gods? I don't think so. Some just have a greater control over various natural elements than others, but that's no different from one person being stronger or having more expertise in an area than another person.
    I'm not too sure that's really a good comparison, there's quite a difference between someone being a computer expert and a trainer compared to something controlling electricity and creating the universe.
    Last edited by Taodragon; 10th April 2013 at 11:06 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Technically, all Pokémon have that. All Pokémon are gods? I don't think so. Some just have a greater control over various natural elements than others, but that's no different from one person being stronger or having more expertise in an area than another person.
    No they don't. I'm not talking about control over elements specifically I said sway over an aspect of the world, big things like Groudon, Kyogre, Zapdos, etc. A pichu isn't holding any kind of power like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mew. View Post
    I guess you are a special one and do not fit under the "most people" category

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    I'm not too sure that's really a good comparison, there's quite a difference between someone being a computer expert and a trainer compared to something controlling electricity and creating the universe.
    Just because Arceus has one special power (which boils down to "creating matter") doesn't mean it's a god. It manipulates matter in the same way that, say, Slowking manipulates water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elnava View Post
    No they don't. I'm not talking about control over elements specifically I said sway over an aspect of the world, big things like Groudon, Kyogre, Zapdos, etc. A pichu isn't holding any kind of power like that.
    Yes, they do. Tons of Pokémon can learn Rain Dance, and even Politoed can have the Drizzle ability. On the other hand, Kyogre has a greater amount control over rain than those Pokémon do. There's no proof that it "created the oceans" or whatever, so that could just be a mythical exaggeration of its unusually pronounced abilities (which, in regards to the Spacetime Trio, is an interpretation supported by Cynthia). For comparison, Zoroark has a unique ability that allows it to disguise itself as another Pokémon. Does that make it a god of illusions? No. It just has a special power is all.

    Besides, those "aspects of the world" aren't metaphysical concepts; they're material elements just like the fire and electricity that other Pokémon manipulate. Reshiram and Zekrom are good examples of this. Neither of them is a "god" over their respective element, but they're strong enough to the point where they can manipulate those elements in ways that other Pokémon cannot (Fusion Flare, Bolt Strike, etc.)

  15. #6590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Just because Arceus has one special power (which boils down to "creating matter") doesn't mean it's a god. It manipulates matter in the same way that, say, Slowking manipulates water.



    Yes, they do. Tons of Pokémon can learn Rain Dance, and even Politoed can have the Drizzle ability.
    Politoed can only have the ability through the dream world. Only a politoed that a pokemon dreams of seeing has the ability to manipulate rain like Kyogre. It is not even a decent comparison to Kyogre because politoed can never manipulate rain normally.

  16. #6591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Politoed can only have the ability through the dream world. Only a politoed that a pokemon dreams of seeing has the ability to manipulate rain like Kyogre. It is not even a decent comparison to Kyogre because politoed can never manipulate rain normally.
    I say again, it can learn Rain Dance. The only difference there is that Kyogre's control is greater.

  17. #6592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Just because Arceus has one special power (which boils down to "creating matter") doesn't mean it's a god. It manipulates matter in the same way that, say, Slowking manipulates water.
    Creating matter from nothing is much more metaphysical and "godlike" then any other Pokémon can achieve. The comparison between two normal people with different lifestyles is nothing in comparison to something manipulating water to creating matter.


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  18. #6593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    I say again, it can learn Rain Dance. The only difference there is that Kyogre's control is greater.
    Even non water type pokemon can learn rain dance. It is a move that makes rain fall for a little time. Talking about permanent rain here. Politoed can never do that unless it is from the dream world.

  19. #6594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    Creating matter from nothing is much more metaphysical and "godlike" then any other Pokémon can achieve.
    It's not metaphysical though. It's just creating a bunch of particles. And once again, every Pokémon can do that, because how else would they perform special attacks? The matter has to come from somewhere. Arceus is just better at it.

    Celebi can travel through time; it's not a god of time.

    Reshiram can make exceptionally powerful bursts of fire; it's not a god of fire.

    Zoroark can create illusions; it's not a god of illusions.

    Arceus' power to create is just that - a power. It's not divine in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Even non water type pokemon can learn rain dance. It is a move that makes rain fall for a little time. Talking about permanent rain here. Politoed can never do that unless it is from the dream world.
    And Kyogre can only create permanent rain (which it isn't, since it can be replaced with other weather conditions very easily; an Abomasnow can overcome it with its own ability; I guess that makes Abomasnow a god of snow?) because it has a proficient amount of control over water.
    Last edited by Endolise; 10th April 2013 at 11:34 PM.

  20. #6595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    It's not metaphysical though. It's just creating a bunch of particles. And once again, every Pokémon can do that, because how else would they perform special attacks? The matter has to come from somewhere. Arceus is just more apt at doing it.

    Celebi can travel through time; it's not a god of time.

    Reshiram can make exceptionally powerful bursts of fire; it's not a god of fire.

    Zoroark can create illusions; it's not a god of illusions.

    Arceus' power to create is just that - a power. It's not divine in any way.
    As you said, matter has to come from somewhere. There's a tangible source for manipulating electricity, water, fire, etc. You can't say the same thing for creating 6 Pokémon and the universe out of nothing.

    There's a difference between the powers you're suggesting. Creating illusions, traveling through time and manipulating fire have rarely been powers only associated with the gods, Arceus' ability is much more unique in that regard because it is something we do associate with creation dieties and the like and is looked upon with much more awe and wonder. Same with some of the more unique legendaries like Palkia and their abilities, they have something that's more outside the realm of normal abilities that we can see and thus that is why most people see them as "godlike."
    Last edited by Taodragon; 10th April 2013 at 11:49 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    As you said, matter has to come from somewhere. There's a tangible source for manipulating electricity, water, fire, etc. You can't say the same thing for creating 6 Pokémon and the universe out of nothing.
    Energy. I'm sure Arceus has it, as pretty much everything else in existence does.

    But, say a Pokémon uses flamethrower while there aren't any flames around. Where do the flames come from? The most obvious answer is, again, energy. There's really no difference. One simply has a greater amount of control over the energy in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    You seem to be neglecting that there's a difference between the powers you're suggesting. Creating illusions, traveling through time and manipulating fire have rarely been powers only associated with the gods, Arceus' ability is much more unique in that regard because it is something we do associate with creation dieties and the like and is looked upon with much more awe and wonder. Same with some of the more unique legendaries like Palkia and their abilities, they have something that's more outside the realm of normal abilities that we can see and thus that is why most people see them as "godlike."
    Maybe not illusion, but time and fire have been god-stables for millennia.

    If we automatically assume that something with seemingly-extraordinary powers is a god, then that's our own fault. In Platinum, Cyrus operated under the assumption that Giratina was the very embodiment and ruler of the Distortion World, and that by capturing or defeating it, the Distortion World would collapse because Giratina, supposedly, was the Distortion World. That was proven incorrect, as Cynthia's hypothesis (that the Distortion World would continue to exist without Giratina) turned out to be true. Cynthia being the very person who said:

    "A long time ago, I wonder what sort of person painted this? Dialga's Roar of Time...Palkia's Spacial Rend...To the people back then, those Pokémon really must have appeared to rule over time and space. Seeing them must have shaken the people to their very core. This painting represents those feelings of awe, wonder, and everything else. It passed that memory to countless people, eventually becoming a myth..."

  22. #6597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endolise View Post
    Energy. I'm sure Arceus has it, as pretty much everything else in existence does.

    But, say a Pokémon uses flamethrower while there aren't any flames around. Where do the flames come from? The most obvious answer is, again, energy. There's really no difference. One simply has a greater amount of control over the energy in question.



    Maybe not illusion, but time and fire have been god-stables for millennia.

    If we automatically assume that something with seemingly-extraordinary powers is a god, then that's our own fault. In Platinum, Cyrus operated under the assumption that Giratina was the very embodiment and ruler of the Distortion World, and that by capturing or defeating it, the Distortion World would collapse because Giratina, supposedly, was the Distortion World. That was proven incorrect, as Cynthia's hypothesis (that the Distortion World would continue to exist without Giratina) turned out to be true. Cynthia being the very person who said:

    "A long time ago, I wonder what sort of person painted this? Dialga's Roar of Time...Palkia's Spacial Rend...To the people back then, those Pokémon really must have appeared to rule over time and space. Seeing them must have shaken the people to their very core. This painting represents those feelings of awe, wonder, and everything else. It passed that memory to countless people, eventually becoming a myth..."
    Possibly, but then we get into the whole "conservation of mass" and all that jazz. It takes more to create something of that magnitude then it would to make a flamethrower for instance.

    I mean that fire and time travel aren't exclusive to them, gods have definitely used them but there have been legends, folklore and modern tales that have both of them used by things that aren't gods.

    I'm not saying that should be an automatic response, the thing is that (at least as far as the dragon trio and Arceus are concerned) everyone's debating hypotheses in and out of the games. They're Pokémon with abilities that are much stronger then most Pokémon are portrayed. I will admit that it's definitely possible that they are "mythstaken" as Cynthia hypothesizes but another thing is that just because Giratina faints (canonically it's never confirmed that any legends are caught) doesn't mean that the world would fall apart even if it was a god, hypothetically it could just go on without it, we have no proof that says otherwise. Ultimately, it seems to come down to a debate of interpretation for me, if you believe that those Pokémon whose abilities are more outside the norm are gods or at least godlike if not gods then that's a different interpretation from those who derive their interpretation from Cynthia's hypothesis. Both use information from the games, they just seem to put more stock in a different source.


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  23. #6598
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taodragon View Post
    I'm not saying that should be an automatic response, the thing is that (at least as far as the dragon trio and Arceus are concerned) everyone's debating hypotheses in and out of the games. They're Pokémon with abilities that are much stronger then most Pokémon are portrayed. I will admit that it's definitely possible that they are "mythstaken" as Cynthia hypothesizes but another thing is that just because Giratina faints (canonically it's never confirmed that any legends are caught) doesn't mean that the world would fall apart even if it was a god, hypothetically it could just go on without it, we have no proof that says otherwise. Ultimately, it seems to come down to a debate of interpretation for me, if you believe that those Pokémon whose abilities are more outside the norm are gods or at least godlike if not gods then that's a different interpretation from those who derive their interpretation from Cynthia's hypothesis. Both use information from the games, they just seem to put more stock in a different source.
    Alright, alright; I suppose that's true. However, I don't really mind the term "god-like," because it's non-specific and can even be accurate. There are gods of all sorts of things. Several people in this thread have cited Shinto mythology, and that's a good comparison. All I'm saying is that calling them legitimate gods, with the implication of divinity, is a leap that requires more explanation than simply assuming that they are Pokémon with extraordinary amounts of power does. To revise a previous point, Groudon and Tyranitar are both very powerful and both have the ability to summon persistent weather conditions; the difference between the two is that Groudon is stronger and is spoken of in mythology. As far as we know from the games themselves, the situation with Legendary Pokémon is exactly as Ghetsis put it: "A Pokémon, even if it is revered as a deity, is still just a Pokémon." And that's just it - we do know that every Pokémon is a Pokémon, but they've never outright stated that any given Pokémon is truly and inherently a god, so all we can do on that front is speculate.
    Last edited by Endolise; 11th April 2013 at 1:09 AM.

  24. #6599
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    If one has greater control over matter or energy or whatever than another toba point where its godlike....then it godlike and can be considering a god.

    Gonna use a marvel reference here. Spiderman has superhuman strength. So does Hercules. He is the god of strength. He can shatter planets and move manhattan. Whole different ballpark.

    Sorry if its too no pokemonish off topic

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    Quote Originally Posted by LusterPurge View Post
    If one has greater control over matter or energy or whatever than another toba point where its godlike....then it godlike and can be considering a god.

    Gonna use a marvel reference here. Spiderman has superhuman strength. So does Hercules. He is the god of strength. He can shatter planets and move manhattan. Whole different ballpark.

    Sorry if its too no pokemonish off topic
    Yes, but Hercules actually is a god (or is at least half-god); he's a divine entity, but that isn't simply because he's strong. Being strong doesn't make him a god. His divinity is inherently a part of his being because he is the offspring of a deity. I might be able to bark, but I'm not genetically a dog, and being able to bark doesn't make me a dog.

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