Gen V's legacy on the series

[Ciccone]

I don't think it'll have that much of a legacy to be honest. It was one of the shortest generations yet, and the games weren't that memorable in my opinion. They weren't groundbreaking or iconic like Red & Blue, and they weren't improvements on previous games either. It's actually funny because the only thing I'll remember this generation for is introducing the Dream World, but you access that through a computer or other similar device, so it's not really in the games themselves. As for what other people will remember Generation 5 for, I'm honestly stumped. I can't imagine that people will remember the Pokemon because quite honestly, almost all of them looked reductive. I think people will remember the arguments about some of the Generation 5 Pokemon more than they'll remember the Pokemon themselves.

[BCVM22]

It was one of the shortest generations yet

We've stated several times that it was equal in length to Generations I and II.

and the games weren't that memorable in my opinion.

And that's fine, but certainly you'd agree that any number of people would disagree with that.

they weren't improvements on previous games either.

Except they were.

almost all of them looked reductive.

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think people will remember the arguments about some of the Generation 5 Pokemon more than they'll remember the Pokemon themselves.

They'll remember both, incredibly enough. Claiming that people will remember an argument specifically over the aesthetics of something but not what that something was would be a tenuous claim, at best.

[Dragonquester]

These games were, no, are, so freakin epic!! I will never forget them.

[YellowHat's Revenge]

Triple battles and Rotations battles didn't really leave much of a mark, from where I'm standing.

[Zachmac]

Triple battles and Rotations battles didn't really leave much of a mark, from where I'm standing.

Well, personally, I think rotation battles are awesome, and one of the best things this gen brought, but most people don't seem to agree....

I still haven't seen a major battle simulator capable of preforming rotation battles. And that really sucks, since I find them to be the most exciting competitively, at least. Though casually, I can understand why they're less popular.

[YellowHat's Revenge]

Not to say I didn't like Rotation battles. Triple battles, no so much, but I found Rotation battles fun in-game (except for recently during my Black Nuzlocke when I lost my Palpitoad during a triple battle...)

That aside, the two new battle types really didn't take off, and I don't know how much of them we'll see in the future.

[Atratus]

Design: While it was controversial, I think it was a step forward from 4th gen. Sure, some were weird (Garbodorm etc.) but every gen has "bad" designs. Overall, the designs were great.
Story: Big step forward, and I hope gen 6 will carry on with it.
Gameplay: Reusable TMs, faster battle pace, fully-animated sprites, stronger pokemon in the tall grass and with more variety were all good. But above all is the fact that they finally changed that sounds it makes when your pokemon's HP is in the red.

[Victreebong]

Design: While it was controversial, I think it was a step forward from 4th gen. Sure, some were weird (Garbodorm etc.) but every gen has "bad" designs. Overall, the designs were great.
Story: Big step forward, and I hope gen 6 will carry on with it.
Gameplay: Reusable TMs, faster battle pace, fully-animated sprites, stronger pokemon in the tall grass and with more variety were all good. But above all is the fact that they finally changed that sounds it makes when your pokemon's HP is in the red.

Well said. I'm not really a huge fan of Gen V, Gen IV was and still is my favorite of the five so far. But your points are spot on. Gen V was all about improvement, and I think it did this to the degree that could be handled on the (now defunct) DS carts. I would have never had said that a year ago, but when Pokemon moves on, so does time.

As for it's mark on the scheme of things, I would rate V above III, II, and maybe even I, but definitely not IV. IV gave us a reason to buy the immense amount of DS Lites that were sold between 2006 - 2009. Gen V gave us a reason to not be mad about the price drop of DS consoles after the 3DS came marching along. And thus I'd rate Gen V as marginal by improvement. It sped things up, made great graphical improvements, revamped wireless game play, and tried to please a lot of folks at the same time on a system that was ultimately at it's time to pass, but even Nintendo saw a reason to release a new generation. (If only for the money grubbing.) Already this next series is looking to blow the current line-up off the pond, with cell-shaded frames, faster animation, and all of the benefits that a current handheld console has in a land of wireless communications.

(And for the record, Trubbish has an insane role in Gen V as far as locality. It's flanking each side of a major city! It's evolution is on a road filled with bike riders, next to a consumer driven shopping mall. Why do you guys not get this? It doesn't need to be Mr. Statistician, and it's design is relevant enough. Love for Garbador and friends!)

[Jdrawer]

Where to begin...

Someone said something about NinGF wanting to please fans. During GenIV, I heard a lot of people complain about unused type combos. GenV released the most PKMN with unique type combos. I could've sworn I saw Stoutland as a Fakemon on this site before GenV, and I made Fakemons with the same designs as Oshawott, Vinillish, Tribbish, and Garbador. Aside from that, the Pokemon had great designs. A Psychic Zubat with hearts! Polar Ursaring (also heard on this site)! The elemental monkeys were great (though I felt Pansear was a Chimchar clone, I was penultimatly wron). I still haven't started Black 2 (waiting on beating Black1), so I can't judge story.

TCG: they took away levels! I'm glad they lowered the power of Basic PKMN's attacks. All PKMN were OPized in GenIV, now if they can unpower evolved PKMN. But they gave us the Dragon-type!

Anime: I saw maybe 3 episodes: can't really judge. But from what I saw, not every attack needs anime backgrounds.

Manga: didn't read.

The Trubbish/Vannilite lines were actually good Pokemon.

Oh! Before I forget! Rotation/Triple battles are crap. Pokemon are free-moving, so why can't my Tackle hit Zoroark on 'the left'? And reusable TMz were not needed. And WHO CARES about competitive? That's not why we're here. And about DW: I don't get it.

[randomspot555]

And reusable TMz were not needed.

Okay, they aren't needed. Why are they such a bad thing to you?

And WHO CARES about competitive. That's not why we're here.

Don't project your own opinion on others. A lot of people care about compeititve Pokemon. Otherwise, VGC wouldn't have lines out the door during regional tournaments every year.

And about DW: I don't get it.

What don't you "get"?

[Unredemption]

Where to begin...

Someone said something about NinGF wanting to please fans. During GenIV, I heard a lot of people complain about unused type combos. GenV released the most PKMN with unique type combos. I could've sworn I saw Stoutland as a Fakemon on this site before GenV, and I made Fakemons with the same designs as Oshawott, Vinillish, Tribbish, and Garbador. Aside from that, the Pokemon had great designs. A Psychic Zubat with hearts! Polar Ursaring (also heard on this site)! The elemental monkeys were great (though I felt Pansear was a Chimchar clone, I was penultimatly wron). I still haven't started Black 2 (waiting on beating Black1), so I can't judge story.

TCG: they took away levels! I'm glad they lowered the power of Basic PKMN's attacks. All PKMN were OPized in GenIV, now if they can unpower evolved PKMN. But they gave us the Dragon-type!

Anime: I saw maybe 3 episodes: can't really judge. But from what I saw, not every attack needs anime backgrounds.

Manga: didn't read.

The Trubbish/Vannilite lines were actually good Pokemon.

Oh! Before I forget! Rotation/Triple battles are crap. Pokemon are free-moving, so why can't my Tackle hit Zoroark on 'the left'? And reusable TMz were not needed. And WHO CARES about competitive? That's not why we're here. And about DW: I don't get it.

Firstly, i think you mean "ultimately". The meaning of "penultimate" does not fit in here at all.

I highly doubt Game Freak would bother digging out Fakemon designs as inspiration. Since there are so many of these floating around, any of them that resembles actual created Pokemon would be just a mere coincidence.

Rotation and Triple Battles were a good way of promoting more strategy in-game by introducing new restrictions - especially the former. Granted, they might not really make sense, but hey it's a game and trainers CAN probably invent their own rules for battles like those seen in Triple Battles.

Reusable TMs extended the longevity of the game tremendously, regardless of whether I'm playing competitively. It allows players to have the freedom to experiment with movesets and Pokemon (especially post-game) without undue worry for whether they'd have enough TMs left. Now, at least I don't have to go through the entire game just to get another TM26.

[Bolt the Cat]

Not many positive changes. The storyline, Double Grass and Shaking Spots, the concept of true sequels (BW2), Habitat list for the Pokedex. That's about all I can think of, IMO it really did more harm than good.

[Italianbaptist]

Not many positive changes. The storyline, Double Grass and Shaking Spots, the concept of true sequels (BW2), Habitat list for the Pokedex. That's about all I can think of, IMO it really did more harm than good.

Why specifically would you say it did more harm than good? I disagree but would like more insight on your perspective.

I do have a feeling that this might end up as the generation that people argued about Pokemon designs like Garbodor and Vanilluxe, and that's a real shame But overall I think this gen contributed some very good things and some unforgettable pokes too, thanks in part to what the anime portrayed. In an overall weak anime saga, Ash's Snivy and Oshawott were standouts. Hoping Oshy pulls an Aipom and sneaks into Ash's backpack before the boat trip to France

[BCVM22]

That's about all I can think of, IMO it really did more harm than good.

Seriously?

I do have a feeling that this might end up as the generation that people argued about Pokemon designs like Garbodor and Vanilluxe, and that's a real shame

A generation ago, the evolutions from previous-generation Pokémon, i.e. Rhyperior and Magmorter and the like, were often the preferred target of the "these don't look like Pokémon!" set. The complaint of choice with those was often "these are overdesigned!" Similar complaints were often leveled at Dialga upon that design's reveal - "this is too complex! It looks like a Digimon!" and so on and so on.

There will be designs from every generation that catch the eye of "these don't look like Pokémon!" set. Garbodor and Vanilluxe are "in the spotlight" right now because it's Generation V we're seeing off. In four or five years when we're seeing off Generation VI, no doubt there will have been a handful of designs that are discussed in the same fashion. It'll always be the same melody, just with different lyrics.

[Bolt the Cat]

Why specifically would you say it did more harm than good? I disagree but would like more insight on your perspective.

Copy-pasted from the last time people asked me about this:

Certainly. I think the decision to reboot the franchise and focus on new features was a bad one. First of all, the timing for something like this was bad, we already had another reboot generation in 3rd gen, and it was too soon for another one. Second, many of the Pokemon are too similar to past gen Pokemon to the point that they could be considered ripoffs. If you want to justify the existence of a new Pokemon, they have to be unique, getting rid of past gen Pokemon only to replace them with similar Pokemon cheapens the idea of this being a reboot. Third, in rebooting the series they removed many useful features, such as the Vs. Seeker, that quite frankly should've been permanent additions to the gameplay. And the games certainly could've used such features. Fourth, they ruined the difficulty and pacing, and in general dumbed down the series to make it accessible for newbies while there were other options available. The Unova region is horribly linear and clustered, making the game short and rushed and leaving no room for exploration. To add insult to injury, they're constantly pointing out where you need to go. It's completely redundant to do both, if there's only one way to go there's no need for them to tell you where you're going. Furthermore, most of the gyms are one city apart, and despite the shortened distance between gyms, the gym leaders still have significant level gaps. This means you have to spend significantly more time grinding, which is even harder thanks to them screwing up the EXP system so that it gets exponentially harder to level up each time you gain a level. And the gym leader, Elite 4, and Rival rosters are absolutely pathetic compared to other games, for some idiotic reason they decided to cap off the gym leaders at 3 Pokemon and the Rivals (before post game) and Elite 4 at 4 Pokemon, no doubt to make it easier for newbies. However, they had a much more viable solution in BW2 when they introduced multiple difficulties, but their potential was wasted thanks to them only being accessible post game (not to mention version exclusive) unless you have a friend who's already gotten that far. The entire generation can pretty much be described by them trying to fix what wasn't broken and it's been riddled with bad design decisions that have provided a mediocre experience.

[BCVM22]

all that stuff he posted above

We can debate this block of text if you'd really like, but I feel like that wouldn't be tremendously productive for either of us. A lot of your complaints can be described as you complaining about design and structural decisions that you might not personally have made but that aren't actually an issue, objectively.

It seems like a lot of your anger comes from you having actually expected the generation to be a complete reboot, which it wasn't. Certain conventions are always going to be followed and certain archetypes are always going to be filled.

At any rate, to claim that Generation V did "more harm than good" is tenuous, at best.

[Roihu]

The Trubbish/Vannilite lines were actually good Pokemon.

I know, right? I keep telling this to every--

Oh! Before I forget! Rotation/Triple battles are crap. Pokemon are free-moving, so why can't my Tackle hit Zoroark on 'the left'? And reusable TMz were not needed. And WHO CARES about competitive? That's not why we're here. And about DW: I don't get it.

Get out.

That was probably the best gameplay addition to this generation.

[Zazie]

Just for fun:

First of all, the timing for something like this was bad, we already had another reboot generation in 3rd gen, and it was too soon for another one.

Personally I found Gen 4 to be a little unexciting, so I was glad to see another gen of big changes.

Seeing Second, many of the Pokemon are too similar to past gen Pokemon to the point that they could be considered ripoffs. If you want to justify the existence of a new Pokemon, they have to be unique, getting rid of past gen Pokemon only to replace them with similar Pokemon cheapens the idea of this being a reboot.

Every generation since Gen 3 has done this, I don't see how Gen 5 is unique in this regard.

Third, in rebooting the series they removed many useful features, such as the Vs. Seeker, that quite frankly should've been permanent additions to the gameplay. And the games certainly could've used such features.

Removing features like the VS. was pretty lame since they are just good to have.

Fourth, they ruined the difficulty and pacing, and in general dumbed down the series to make it accessible for newbies while there were other options available. The Unova region is horribly linear and clustered, making the game short and rushed and leaving no room for exploration. To add insult to injury, they're constantly pointing out where you need to go. It's completely redundant to do both, if there's only one way to go there's no need for them to tell you where you're going. Furthermore, most of the gyms are one city apart, and despite the shortened distance between gyms, the gym leaders still have significant level gaps. This means you have to spend significantly more time grinding, which is even harder thanks to them screwing up the EXP system so that it gets exponentially harder to level up each time you gain a level. And the gym leader, Elite 4, and Rival rosters are absolutely pathetic compared to other games, for some idiotic reason they decided to cap off the gym leaders at 3 Pokemon and the Rivals (before post game) and Elite 4 at 4 Pokemon, no doubt to make it easier for newbies.

I agree that Black and White was a little too tightly arranged. I liked Ruby and Sapphire's linearity, but that was because there were a bunch of towns with contests instead of gyms to stretch out the distance between gym fights. But I never had any issues with grinding. My pokemon got to proper level solely through trainer battles in the early mid game. I don't know about the late game because they gave me a lucky egg, which I abused like crazy. Personally I liked the elite four layout better, though I think the rivals probably would have felt more a bit more rivally if they had a team of six pokemon.

However, they had a much more viable solution in BW2 when they introduced multiple difficulties, but their potential was wasted thanks to them only being accessible post game (not to mention version exclusive) unless you have a friend who's already gotten that far. The entire generation can pretty much be described by them trying to fix what wasn't broken and it's been riddled with bad design decisions that have provided a mediocre experience.

There really isn't an excuse for how they handled difficulty levels. It's just an unessecarty hurdle. But it's still better than no difficulty levels and I hope they give it to you right out the bat in gen 6.

To bring this back to the thread subject, while quite a few of your criticisms are valid I don't think they necessarily are marking the direction the series is going in. (its a bit early to tell) I personally was not a big fan of Diamond and Pearl for it's single player design, but the issues in those games weren't repeated in Black and White. They even fixed issues in Platinum, so I am confident in their ability to learn from their previous games. I see no reason to be worried about the design of Gen 6 or later.

To be more specific:
In gen 1 Brock was a little too tough if you picked charmander. In Gen 2 they made sure you could get a super effective pokemon against Faulkner no matter your starter.
In gen 2 they had an issue with a messed up level curve and not properly highlighting the new pokemon. They fixed these issues in gen 3.
In gen 3 they had a long series of water routes that everyone hated, in gen 4 their were barely any water routes.
In gen 4 there was a lack of type disversity and slowish gameplay. They fixed these too.

[Cup of Tea]

So Nintendo is quite literally pregnant (9 months, eh?) with the new generation of Pokemon and Black/White/Black2/White2 will soon be delegated to the realm of "retro". What memories do you think this gen will bring?

This made me smile. Thank you. Well, it has affected the series by closing the first ... era? of pokemon. Gen VI is a new era, whereas Gen V was more of a closing for the first five generations. (Notice the similarities between Gen I and Gen V, done for the effect of nostalgia). Gen VI will be completely new.

[Bolt the Cat]

Personally I found Gen 4 to be a little unexciting, so I was glad to see another gen of big changes.

True, but this is all part of an even bigger problem of the games constantly alternating between these two kinds of generations, there's never any balance. At any rate, the point remains, rebooting the series so frequently is unhealthy for the series, I mean what's the point of making improvements in 5th and 6th gen if 7th gen is just going to remove most of them all over again?

Every generation since Gen 3 has done this, I don't see how Gen 5 is unique in this regard.

While it is true that past generations have had some ripoff Pokemon, it was usually limited to a handful of Pokemon. 5th gen took this to an extreme where a significant portion of them were.