Gen V's legacy on the series

[Unredemption]

Where to begin...

Someone said something about NinGF wanting to please fans. During GenIV, I heard a lot of people complain about unused type combos. GenV released the most PKMN with unique type combos. I could've sworn I saw Stoutland as a Fakemon on this site before GenV, and I made Fakemons with the same designs as Oshawott, Vinillish, Tribbish, and Garbador. Aside from that, the Pokemon had great designs. A Psychic Zubat with hearts! Polar Ursaring (also heard on this site)! The elemental monkeys were great (though I felt Pansear was a Chimchar clone, I was penultimatly wron). I still haven't started Black 2 (waiting on beating Black1), so I can't judge story.

TCG: they took away levels! I'm glad they lowered the power of Basic PKMN's attacks. All PKMN were OPized in GenIV, now if they can unpower evolved PKMN. But they gave us the Dragon-type!

Anime: I saw maybe 3 episodes: can't really judge. But from what I saw, not every attack needs anime backgrounds.

Manga: didn't read.

The Trubbish/Vannilite lines were actually good Pokemon.

Oh! Before I forget! Rotation/Triple battles are crap. Pokemon are free-moving, so why can't my Tackle hit Zoroark on 'the left'? And reusable TMz were not needed. And WHO CARES about competitive? That's not why we're here. And about DW: I don't get it.

Firstly, i think you mean "ultimately". The meaning of "penultimate" does not fit in here at all.

I highly doubt Game Freak would bother digging out Fakemon designs as inspiration. Since there are so many of these floating around, any of them that resembles actual created Pokemon would be just a mere coincidence.

Rotation and Triple Battles were a good way of promoting more strategy in-game by introducing new restrictions - especially the former. Granted, they might not really make sense, but hey it's a game and trainers CAN probably invent their own rules for battles like those seen in Triple Battles.

Reusable TMs extended the longevity of the game tremendously, regardless of whether I'm playing competitively. It allows players to have the freedom to experiment with movesets and Pokemon (especially post-game) without undue worry for whether they'd have enough TMs left. Now, at least I don't have to go through the entire game just to get another TM26.

[Bolt the Cat]

Not many positive changes. The storyline, Double Grass and Shaking Spots, the concept of true sequels (BW2), Habitat list for the Pokedex. That's about all I can think of, IMO it really did more harm than good.

[Italianbaptist]

Not many positive changes. The storyline, Double Grass and Shaking Spots, the concept of true sequels (BW2), Habitat list for the Pokedex. That's about all I can think of, IMO it really did more harm than good.

Why specifically would you say it did more harm than good? I disagree but would like more insight on your perspective.

I do have a feeling that this might end up as the generation that people argued about Pokemon designs like Garbodor and Vanilluxe, and that's a real shame But overall I think this gen contributed some very good things and some unforgettable pokes too, thanks in part to what the anime portrayed. In an overall weak anime saga, Ash's Snivy and Oshawott were standouts. Hoping Oshy pulls an Aipom and sneaks into Ash's backpack before the boat trip to France

[BCVM22]

That's about all I can think of, IMO it really did more harm than good.

Seriously?

I do have a feeling that this might end up as the generation that people argued about Pokemon designs like Garbodor and Vanilluxe, and that's a real shame

A generation ago, the evolutions from previous-generation Pokémon, i.e. Rhyperior and Magmorter and the like, were often the preferred target of the "these don't look like Pokémon!" set. The complaint of choice with those was often "these are overdesigned!" Similar complaints were often leveled at Dialga upon that design's reveal - "this is too complex! It looks like a Digimon!" and so on and so on.

There will be designs from every generation that catch the eye of "these don't look like Pokémon!" set. Garbodor and Vanilluxe are "in the spotlight" right now because it's Generation V we're seeing off. In four or five years when we're seeing off Generation VI, no doubt there will have been a handful of designs that are discussed in the same fashion. It'll always be the same melody, just with different lyrics.

[Bolt the Cat]

Why specifically would you say it did more harm than good? I disagree but would like more insight on your perspective.

Copy-pasted from the last time people asked me about this:

Certainly. I think the decision to reboot the franchise and focus on new features was a bad one. First of all, the timing for something like this was bad, we already had another reboot generation in 3rd gen, and it was too soon for another one. Second, many of the Pokemon are too similar to past gen Pokemon to the point that they could be considered ripoffs. If you want to justify the existence of a new Pokemon, they have to be unique, getting rid of past gen Pokemon only to replace them with similar Pokemon cheapens the idea of this being a reboot. Third, in rebooting the series they removed many useful features, such as the Vs. Seeker, that quite frankly should've been permanent additions to the gameplay. And the games certainly could've used such features. Fourth, they ruined the difficulty and pacing, and in general dumbed down the series to make it accessible for newbies while there were other options available. The Unova region is horribly linear and clustered, making the game short and rushed and leaving no room for exploration. To add insult to injury, they're constantly pointing out where you need to go. It's completely redundant to do both, if there's only one way to go there's no need for them to tell you where you're going. Furthermore, most of the gyms are one city apart, and despite the shortened distance between gyms, the gym leaders still have significant level gaps. This means you have to spend significantly more time grinding, which is even harder thanks to them screwing up the EXP system so that it gets exponentially harder to level up each time you gain a level. And the gym leader, Elite 4, and Rival rosters are absolutely pathetic compared to other games, for some idiotic reason they decided to cap off the gym leaders at 3 Pokemon and the Rivals (before post game) and Elite 4 at 4 Pokemon, no doubt to make it easier for newbies. However, they had a much more viable solution in BW2 when they introduced multiple difficulties, but their potential was wasted thanks to them only being accessible post game (not to mention version exclusive) unless you have a friend who's already gotten that far. The entire generation can pretty much be described by them trying to fix what wasn't broken and it's been riddled with bad design decisions that have provided a mediocre experience.

[BCVM22]

all that stuff he posted above

We can debate this block of text if you'd really like, but I feel like that wouldn't be tremendously productive for either of us. A lot of your complaints can be described as you complaining about design and structural decisions that you might not personally have made but that aren't actually an issue, objectively.

It seems like a lot of your anger comes from you having actually expected the generation to be a complete reboot, which it wasn't. Certain conventions are always going to be followed and certain archetypes are always going to be filled.

At any rate, to claim that Generation V did "more harm than good" is tenuous, at best.

[Roihu]

The Trubbish/Vannilite lines were actually good Pokemon.

I know, right? I keep telling this to every--

Oh! Before I forget! Rotation/Triple battles are crap. Pokemon are free-moving, so why can't my Tackle hit Zoroark on 'the left'? And reusable TMz were not needed. And WHO CARES about competitive? That's not why we're here. And about DW: I don't get it.

Get out.

That was probably the best gameplay addition to this generation.

[Zazie]

Just for fun:

First of all, the timing for something like this was bad, we already had another reboot generation in 3rd gen, and it was too soon for another one.

Personally I found Gen 4 to be a little unexciting, so I was glad to see another gen of big changes.

Seeing Second, many of the Pokemon are too similar to past gen Pokemon to the point that they could be considered ripoffs. If you want to justify the existence of a new Pokemon, they have to be unique, getting rid of past gen Pokemon only to replace them with similar Pokemon cheapens the idea of this being a reboot.

Every generation since Gen 3 has done this, I don't see how Gen 5 is unique in this regard.

Third, in rebooting the series they removed many useful features, such as the Vs. Seeker, that quite frankly should've been permanent additions to the gameplay. And the games certainly could've used such features.

Removing features like the VS. was pretty lame since they are just good to have.

Fourth, they ruined the difficulty and pacing, and in general dumbed down the series to make it accessible for newbies while there were other options available. The Unova region is horribly linear and clustered, making the game short and rushed and leaving no room for exploration. To add insult to injury, they're constantly pointing out where you need to go. It's completely redundant to do both, if there's only one way to go there's no need for them to tell you where you're going. Furthermore, most of the gyms are one city apart, and despite the shortened distance between gyms, the gym leaders still have significant level gaps. This means you have to spend significantly more time grinding, which is even harder thanks to them screwing up the EXP system so that it gets exponentially harder to level up each time you gain a level. And the gym leader, Elite 4, and Rival rosters are absolutely pathetic compared to other games, for some idiotic reason they decided to cap off the gym leaders at 3 Pokemon and the Rivals (before post game) and Elite 4 at 4 Pokemon, no doubt to make it easier for newbies.

I agree that Black and White was a little too tightly arranged. I liked Ruby and Sapphire's linearity, but that was because there were a bunch of towns with contests instead of gyms to stretch out the distance between gym fights. But I never had any issues with grinding. My pokemon got to proper level solely through trainer battles in the early mid game. I don't know about the late game because they gave me a lucky egg, which I abused like crazy. Personally I liked the elite four layout better, though I think the rivals probably would have felt more a bit more rivally if they had a team of six pokemon.

However, they had a much more viable solution in BW2 when they introduced multiple difficulties, but their potential was wasted thanks to them only being accessible post game (not to mention version exclusive) unless you have a friend who's already gotten that far. The entire generation can pretty much be described by them trying to fix what wasn't broken and it's been riddled with bad design decisions that have provided a mediocre experience.

There really isn't an excuse for how they handled difficulty levels. It's just an unessecarty hurdle. But it's still better than no difficulty levels and I hope they give it to you right out the bat in gen 6.

To bring this back to the thread subject, while quite a few of your criticisms are valid I don't think they necessarily are marking the direction the series is going in. (its a bit early to tell) I personally was not a big fan of Diamond and Pearl for it's single player design, but the issues in those games weren't repeated in Black and White. They even fixed issues in Platinum, so I am confident in their ability to learn from their previous games. I see no reason to be worried about the design of Gen 6 or later.

To be more specific:
In gen 1 Brock was a little too tough if you picked charmander. In Gen 2 they made sure you could get a super effective pokemon against Faulkner no matter your starter.
In gen 2 they had an issue with a messed up level curve and not properly highlighting the new pokemon. They fixed these issues in gen 3.
In gen 3 they had a long series of water routes that everyone hated, in gen 4 their were barely any water routes.
In gen 4 there was a lack of type disversity and slowish gameplay. They fixed these too.

[Cup of Tea]

So Nintendo is quite literally pregnant (9 months, eh?) with the new generation of Pokemon and Black/White/Black2/White2 will soon be delegated to the realm of "retro". What memories do you think this gen will bring?

This made me smile. Thank you. Well, it has affected the series by closing the first ... era? of pokemon. Gen VI is a new era, whereas Gen V was more of a closing for the first five generations. (Notice the similarities between Gen I and Gen V, done for the effect of nostalgia). Gen VI will be completely new.

[Bolt the Cat]

Personally I found Gen 4 to be a little unexciting, so I was glad to see another gen of big changes.

True, but this is all part of an even bigger problem of the games constantly alternating between these two kinds of generations, there's never any balance. At any rate, the point remains, rebooting the series so frequently is unhealthy for the series, I mean what's the point of making improvements in 5th and 6th gen if 7th gen is just going to remove most of them all over again?

Every generation since Gen 3 has done this, I don't see how Gen 5 is unique in this regard.

While it is true that past generations have had some ripoff Pokemon, it was usually limited to a handful of Pokemon. 5th gen took this to an extreme where a significant portion of them were.

[carboncopy]

This made me smile. Thank you. Well, it has affected the series by closing the first ... era? of pokemon. Gen VI is a new era, whereas Gen V was more of a closing for the first five generations. (Notice the similarities between Gen I and Gen V, done for the effect of nostalgia). Gen VI will be completely new.

You make feel so sad that I'm leaving Gen V so early. Had good memories of it. Totally new pokes and fun of a new discovery was really good. Seeing that first partrat and that amazing battle scene blew my mind away. Ah... I will miss you bw and bw2 ! I really hope Unova returns in Gen 6.
Unova has to be my best region, even beating Kanto and Hoenn. Glad I was part of it.

[Meowtastic]

The thing that I am glad it finally adressed, that most people have been bringing up way beforehand, is the whole 'how wrong it is to make pokemon fight' discussion. I like how team plasma is pretty much PETA of pokemon.

[randomspot555]

True, but this is all part of an even bigger problem of the games constantly alternating between these two kinds of generations, there's never any balance. At any rate, the point remains, rebooting the series so frequently is unhealthy for the series, I mean what's the point of making improvements in 5th and 6th gen if 7th gen is just going to remove most of them all over again?

The series has only been rebooted once, the break between 2nd and 3rd gen.

Gen 5 was not a gen full of "rip off" Pokemon. I hate to break it to you, but in the real world, there is more than one type of rock, more than one type of bat, and more than one type of cat. Zubat and Swoobat are based off of two entirely different species of bats and have many other differences in them as well, and that's one example of many. The fact that you see them as ripoffs says a lot more about you than it does about the Pokemon.

[Hidden Power]

Seriously?



A generation ago, the evolutions from previous-generation Pokémon, i.e. Rhyperior and Magmorter and the like, were often the preferred target of the "these don't look like Pokémon!" set. The complaint of choice with those was often "these are overdesigned!" Similar complaints were often leveled at Dialga upon that design's reveal - "this is too complex! It looks like a Digimon!" and so on and so on.

There will be designs from every generation that catch the eye of "these don't look like Pokémon!" set. Garbodor and Vanilluxe are "in the spotlight" right now because it's Generation V we're seeing off. In four or five years when we're seeing off Generation VI, no doubt there will have been a handful of designs that are discussed in the same fashion. It'll always be the same melody, just with different lyrics.

Well, it's more like a melody with longer lyrics after every generation. Generally not-so-appealing Pokemon don't miraculously become more popular just because they're out of the 'spotlight' with each new generation, and would have remained at the bottom of the ranking whether we're sorting by individual generation or a combined list. People just want to talk about their latest new found hatred since the earlier ones have been discussed/hated to death.

[YNCRN]

How can people say that the Pokemon in Gen V are recycled or have been done before?

Some of the most unique and visually appealing Pokemon have been in Gen V in my opinion.

Zoroark, Tirtouga, Braviary, Scolipede, Scrafty, Cofagrigus, Galvantula, Chandelure, Haxorus, Hydreigon and Volcarona just to name a few.

I think if someone's personal opinion is that they don't LIKE the new Pokemon, then of course they're entitled to that, but to say that GameFreak has lost a step or packed it in in terms of Pokemon design is ridiculous.

Without creating new Pokemon people would get sick and tired of the same old Pokemon, and if they always make remakes of games people will complain about remakes instead of new games.

I really enjoyed Gen V, not only because of the Pokemon but because of the new mechanics introduced and some seriously amazing Pokemon designs.

I think all gens will have their Pokemon that are weak, underused, underappreciated, etc, but in the end there's always going to be Pokemon that people like and dislike - they can't hit a home run with all 100 new monsters each time they release a new game.

[Firebrand]

The series has only been rebooted once, the break between 2nd and 3rd gen.

Gen 5 was not a gen full of "rip off" Pokemon. I hate to break it to you, but in the real world, there is more than one type of rock, more than one type of bat, and more than one type of cat. Zubat and Swoobat are based off of two entirely different species of bats and have many other differences in them as well, and that's one example of many. The fact that you see them as ripoffs says a lot more about you than it does about the Pokemon.

I gave up on this argument ages ago, because no one seemed to want to listen. The fact of the matter is, with the absence of pokemon like Zubat, Geodude, and Tentacool, other things will rise to fill their ecological niche, as seen in Woobat, Roggenrolla and Frillish. From a real-world standpoint, that makes a lot of sense. I think the biggest impact Gen V will have on the series is showing that taking risks works. In Black and White, GF added a much deeper storyline than previously (I mean, granted, it's not as deep as other RPGs, but it's a huge step up for pokemon), took risks with aesthetic appeal and even went so far as to ensure that no pokemon from previous generations appeared until after the player beat the elite 4. It showed that a region could stand on its own two feet, without relying on fan favorites from past generations to supplement the newly introduced pokemon.

[Bolt the Cat]

The fact of the matter is, with the absence of pokemon like Zubat, Geodude, and Tentacool, other things will rise to fill their ecological niche, as seen in Woobat, Roggenrolla and Frillish.

That doesn't mean they have to reuse the same species and types, though. There's more unique ways of filling those niches, they don't need to constantly reuse the same bats, rocks, bugs, etc.

[randomspot555]

That doesn't mean they have to reuse the same species and types, though. There's more unique ways of filling those niches, they don't need to constantly reuse the same bats, rocks, bugs, etc.

They didn't reuse the same species.

As I said to someone else, the fact that you can't see the difference between a Pokemon based on a vampire bat and a Pokemon based off of a heart-nosed bat says more about you and how simplistic you are than anything about the series.

If you think having more than one type of bat exist is uncreative, then mother nature is uncreative and has run out of ideas for having created several different breeds of dogs, dozens of breeds of cats, millions of species of ants, etc....

[Grim Heaper]

That doesn't mean they have to reuse the same species and types, though. There's more unique ways of filling those niches, they don't need to constantly reuse the same bats, rocks, bugs, etc.

Well Zubat was based off a more general representation of bats. Woobat is based off an actual species of bats, more specifically, the Honduran White Bat. Geodude is just a rock, Roggenrola was based of a geode. So in a way, you can't exactly say they're reusing the same species. While Gen I covered a species as a whole, Gen. V went into the specifics of every species.

[nsac91]

don't mean to interrupt but... how many posts do i need to post a new thread?

[Endolise]

Well Zubat was based off a more general representation of bats. Woobat is based off an actual species of bats, more specifically, the Honduran White Bat. Geodude is just a rock, Roggenrola was based of a geode. So in a way, you can't exactly say they're reusing the same species. While Gen I covered a species as a whole, Gen. V went into the specifics of every species.

Like how Audino is a rabbit and Chansey is an... egg... thing...

Okay, bad example. But it does prove that not every niche-filler was taken from the same species as its Gen I counterpart.

[randomspot555]

don't mean to interrupt but... how many posts do i need to post a new thread?

There's a 120% chance that if you have to ask, you probably don't need to post a new thread.

EDIT: I don't think Zubat is a "generic bat". It is a Vampire bat and that's kind of shown in its moves such as Leech Life and Bite.

[Bolt the Cat]

They didn't reuse the same species.

As I said to someone else, the fact that you can't see the difference between a Pokemon based on a vampire bat and a Pokemon based off of a heart-nosed bat says more about you and how simplistic you are than anything about the series.

If you think having more than one type of bat exist is uncreative, then mother nature is uncreative and has run out of ideas for having created several different breeds of dogs, dozens of breeds of cats, millions of species of ants, etc....

True, but the fact of the matter is that they don't need to follow real life perfectly. There's plenty of other more unique cave dwelling animals they could choose from which are completely different from the usual bats and rocks that we usually get. What about an earthworm? A spider (okay, we did get that, but it only appeared in one cave in the game)? A bear? There's any number of things they could've done which would've been more unique than a slightly different looking bat.

[randomspot555]

True, but the fact of the matter is that they don't need to follow real life perfectly.

No, but they also shouldn't disqualify something just because they did something vaguely related before.

Tell me what logical justification should there be to never ever ever create any further Pokemon based on bats, even though there are hundreds if unique species of bats?

There's plenty of other more unique cave dwelling animals they could choose from

And they did!

A vampire bat and a Heart-nosed bat are not the same thing!

Do you think a Great Dane and a German Shepard are the same thing?

Yes, Zubat and Swoobat are only "slightly different" if you...you know, ignore the huge differences between them and only briefly look at them from very far away while blinking.

[BCVM22]

True, but the fact of the matter is that they don't need to follow real life perfectly. There's plenty of other more unique cave dwelling animals they could choose from which are completely different from the usual bats and rocks that we usually get. What about an earthworm? A spider (okay, we did get that, but it only appeared in one cave in the game)? A bear? There's any number of things they could've done which would've been more unique than a slightly different looking bat.

Zubat and Woobat look almost nothing alike aside from both having, appropriately, bat wings, and they're completely different mechanically.

Tynamo, Ferroseed and Drillbur were also new cave-dwelling Pokémon with no real counterparts found in the past.