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Thread: A Unova League Evolution (769)

  1. #351
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    Rewatched this epsiode because I was on a League binge. Christ this League was...disappointing to say the least. My fault for holding out too much hope for this battle, especially since Ash vs. Stephan was actually decent.

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  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor_Crow View Post
    I'm fine with the results. I don't mind Satoshi losing to Kotetsu as they're both best friends and then in the next round the person who is more tactical defeated the person who has a head-on battling style. Virgil defeated Kotetsu and that was the only result that would have worked, also it made Virgil not be pointless in this League which was a plus. No way was the ditz going to defeat the level-headed guy, so yeah, I am cool with the Isshu League.

    Also I don't really care for battle tournament arcs anyway and we all know Satoshi wasn't going to win the entire League. I'm just laid back on his loss.
    I'm in two minds about it. I'm sort of okay with Ash loosing to Cameron for two reasons. 1) Ash and Cameron are shown to have become very good friends. I like Cameron. He's energetic, fun and a little quirky but he's clearly a caring and kind warmhearted person. He's similar to Ash in so many ways that you get the feeling their kindred Spirits (I don't ship Ash and Cameron I ship Ash with Pikachu). They both put in their best and Ash lost and that's noting to be ashamed of. 2) I liked the fact Riolu evolved to help Cameron win the battle because it shows the very strong bond between the two of them given Riolu's evolve by friendship. Cameron and Lucario share the same sort of bond that Ash has with Pikachu. It's clear they both care and love each other very much and that means it was their bond that made the difference in the end and not an assertion of strength, which is the main thrust of the Anime anyway. Trainers achieve through love and friendship which is why Paul was inevitably a failure.

    However in some ways it was a disappointing end to the Unova league. Cameron did only bring 5 Pokémon to a full battle and still won decisively which may have left some people with the impression that Ash is weak or that his Unova Team was weak. It wasn't, I actually think Ash's best team was his Unova team. I maintain that this loss would not have been as bad if Ash had performed better in some of the tournament arches. I strongly feel he should have won the battle with Iris in the first BW series. The most disappointing thing is this result seems to have turned the fandom against Cameron, which is sad because he is a good character. They should have introduced him earlier and had him more involved in the plot of major episodes. I would like to have seen Ash and Cameron take on Team Plasma side by side.

    Virgil winning the entire league is a little bit of a stretch. He's entire team consists of Eevees. While I like Eevee and it's evolved forms because there cute, there not the strongest Pokémon in terms of defence or attack stats. I personally think given the chance Ash could have beaten Virgil in a battle with his Unova team. Think about it. Oshawott could take out Flareon. Snivy would beat Vaporeon. Scraggy would match up well against Umbreon. Krokodile would defeat Jolteon no problem. Pikachu against Espeon maybe and Pignite for Glaceon. Not sure about Eevee but either Pikachu or Scraggy.

    Personally I think having Ash win the League would have been a pleasant end to what was at times a rather poorly written series and would have made up for his losses in the other tournaments. I would have loved to see as accept the trophy at the ceremony. it would something like;

    Ash: I owe this to all my Pokémon. We did it Pikachu
    Pikachu: Pika Pikapi
    Then Oshawott pops out of his Pokémon, knocks Ash off his shoulder and cries out 'Osha Osha' proudly. Pikachu then tried to thunderbolt him but hits Ash instead. Maybe Ash could even have given Pikachu a kiss on the cheek. It would have been so cute.
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  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorde View Post
    That's what makes Ash's loss so much worse imo. He was facing someone who wasn't playing with a full deck of cards, if you know what I mean. And technically Cameron wouldn't have been able to participate in the tournament at all if Ash hadn't helped him register for the League before the deadline, which he almost missed. Ash practically held Cameron's hand throughout the tournament and he wasn't even mad when he lost. That's what really ticks me off. I've never been so disappointed with a Pokemon episode as I was with this one.
    I think your being a bit unfair. Cameron may be a bit of a scatterbrain and he didn't realise he had to register, but I think more or less he earned the win. He's is a strong trainer. He had a diverse and Powerful team of diverse and fully evolved Pokémon (though obviously a Pokémon does not need to evolve to be strong and I don't want to see the anime take on a evolution is nothing to be afraid of attitude). That fact Ash helped him shows what a kind person Ash is and how close he and Cameron became. Give the poor guy a break. And why should Ash be angry with his loss. He did his best and he lost to a good friend after a hard fight. I think it shows how much Ash has matured since the original series.
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  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorde View Post
    I only managed to watch half of the episode before I turned off the television and stormed off. I'm still so upset that Ash lost to Cameron like that. Like, it boggles my mind seeing a guy (Cameron) who didn't even follow the official full battle rules defeat someone (Ash) who went into the battle with a legit team and everything. It makes that "cheaters never prosper" idiom seem completely false and fabricated, and I for one am not pleased. My sister was so pissed off this morning after watching the episode. I knew she would take it hard (she's a huge Ash fangirl lol), but she went stark raving mad. She sat there on my bed and complained for twenty minutes straight and while I obviously agreed with everything she said, it was kind of sad seeing how much anger this one episode managed to cause. I can just imagine what other viewers thought and I wouldn't be surprised if the next couple of episodes get extremely low ratings. Anyway, I didn't catch the second half of the episode but since this League was rushed to begin with, I can assume that the ending was also rushed and that contrary to what people predicted, nobody got a proper send off in the end. Am I wrong?
    Cameron didn't cheat. He just made a mistake. If anything he and Lucario overcame quite a bit of adversity to win like that.
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  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkmbl View Post
    I couldn't help but feel mad, sad, glad, and angry at the same time after watching this in english...

    I don't mind ash losing if it's for a good reason... Comparing the older leagues for example.


    Kanto: Lost in top 16 due to charizard being disobedient, kinda upsetting

    Orange: Won due to there being only one contestant and ash's strength's improving

    Johto: Lost in a very close match due to overpowered blaziken

    Hoenn: Never saw this, but he lost in a close round again

    Frontier: Won barely

    Sinnoh: Was in the top 4, and lost to a very close match against legendaries, which actually made it the best league.

    Unova: Lost in the top 8 (DROP RROM PREVIOUS), to a teen that really has no sense of thought and even forgot his watchog, because of a hydregion and Lucario... And then he got annihilated by Virgil afterwards, making it the worst league.

    I would rather have virgil beat ash instead of cameron... and the fact that Ash didn't care about it like he did for Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh and Hoenn made it really upsetting.

    Writers, I'm mad at you now. So mad I could go insane if it weren't for two of my favorite pokemon being in the league (Espeon and Liepard). The fact that Snivy and Scraggy didn't evolve when Pidove and Sewaddle did FULLY, and due to the bad tournament performances during the whole series... Made it bad, but not as bad of a series as Sinnoh.

    And a question about these leagues in general... Why does the reason for the loss always revolve around a BAD move?
    I don't think Snivy or Scraggy needed to evolve. For starter Snivy is a really strong Pokémon and has shown herself to be so, beating several Pokémon even when she had a type disadvantage and taking out nearly Ash's entire team when he tried to catch her. I think it's safe to say if she wanted to evolve she would have. A lot of Scraggy's personality and his friendship with Axew revolved around him being a Scraggy. He was one of the kids of the group and he would have had to grow up in order to evolve. This would have been too difficult for Axew. I'm generally of the opinion that there is no need for Pokémon to evolve simply to be strong and that evolution should not happen unless it is central to the plot line or develops the Pokémon's character in some way (like Tepig).

    I'm actually more mad at the Sinnoh loss than the Unova one. The fact that a trainer can enter a tournament with legendary Pokémon that doesn't even need to train just seems like cheating more than anything, especially as legendaries are regarded as Uber in the games and not allowed in certain tournaments. That was the biggest joke ever. And who was Tobias anyway. Big silent bloke who I thought was quite arrogant - "Look at me I have legendary Pokémon. You mere mortals can tremble at my feet. What's that. My Darkrai has been defeated. Oh dear. I shall have to take out my second legendary Pokémon. Please kill Pikachu quickly Latios. I'm going to be late my for a spot of Tea with the Governor-General."

    The fact that Unova was a drop from previous leagues isn't really unreasonable. You can't expect him to do well in every league. And Cameron is clearly a skilled and dedicated trainer who loves and cares for his Pokémon. He's certainly not dark mysterious I'm late for tea with the Governor-General Tobias with his Darkrai and Latios. Cameron is a way better character than Tobais. At least he's good natured and recognises he has fault and unlike Tobais has a strong bond with his Pokémon (Tobais never complemented Darkrai once). It's much more believable that Riolu would evolve and come through for Cameron than Tobais mopping the floor with Ash's team with his Uber Pokés on his way to tea at Government house.
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  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    Rewatched this epsiode because I was on a League binge. Christ this League was...disappointing to say the least. My fault for holding out too much hope for this battle, especially since Ash vs. Stephan was actually decent.
    I think your being a little bit harsh. The final showdown between Lucario and Pikachu was decent, particularly the way it came down to electroball vs aura sphere. Pikachu was just unlucky that aura sphere overpower electroball. If electroball had succeeded then Pikachu would have won. Both attacks could have exploded and both Pokémon faint. Ash's loss was disappointing yes but only because he had a number of unfair defeats in the rest of the series. To loss to Iris in the club battle in Nimbassa Town was way worse - I'm more upset about that than this loss. And in any case it was a way better finish than the loss to Tobias.
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  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRVEmaster View Post
    This episode, my gosh this episode was horrible!

    This really just feels to me the ONLY reason Ash lost is because Cameron's Riolu evolved into Lucario. That's it. Ash actually could have won this but no, they have to gave Lucario some more glory. Then Virgil proceeds to beat Cameron easily in the next round and goes on to be the champion. Seriously?!

    This episode basically justifies why Virgil was a pointless character. I feel he should have been the one to defeat Ash because at least he actually knows what he's doing. Cameron was and is an unlikeable idiot who should have never existed in the first place. Part of me wishes a different rival should have showcased Samurott *sigh*
    I don't think Lucario evolving like that is bad. Yes it is the only reason Cameron won but it does show how much Riolu/Lucario loved and cared about Cameron and wanted to come through for him. Riolu evolves from friendship after all. Ash was just unfortunate in this case. I think it's better to enjoy Cameron's victory rather than commiserate Ash's loss. Cameron totally earned it. He won because he had a strong bond with his Pokémon just like Ash has with Pikachu. that is what the anime and the games places the emphasis on anyway especially in Gen V. It's a way better ending than loosing to a mystery bloke with a Darkrai and Latios who is only there to beat the C*** out of Ash. I can't believe people are less upset about that than this. At least Cameron cares and loves Riolu where as Tobias is cold and heartless.

    And Cameron is not an unlikeable character. He's way better than Tobias. I thought he was quite a good addition. He's energetic, quirky, confident and a bit of a scatterbrain. He was shown to develop quite a strong friendship with Ash. They were kindred spirits as a I've said before. The only disappointment was that Cameron was not introduced early enough. He should have appeared in the early series and had more involvement in the plot line. I would liked to have seen him fight either Team Rocket or Team Plasma with Riolu alongside Ash.
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  8. #358
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    Default Cameron deserved the win

    Quote Originally Posted by Cresselia92 View Post
    That's actually a really good point. I heard a lot of people saying that Ash is grown up enough to not let losses piss him off (and that's quite ironic, considering the fact that the anime said that he still has 10 years), but the fact is... that he has become too void of emotions, imo.

    I remember in AG that he was quite mad that he lost to Brawly and in DP he was left reflecting about his loss against Paul in his first full battle. In BW, he simply shrugs off and say "Oh, I lost! I'll fare better next time!"

    I know, he should have fun, but I'm not saying that he should act all whiny and depressed. Just a bit sad about his loss (in the precise moment where he loses). Sure, they put a scene where he was shown a bit sad while on the plane, but they could have still put it while showing an initial reaction during the League.
    The fact that he was able to shrug off the loss shows how much Ash has matured and that he really is a good natured person. He and Cameron had formed quite a close relationship over the course of the league and I think part of him was really happy for his friend.

    The fact that Ash was angry when he lost to Paul in DP is more of a reflection that he really didn't like Paul. Paul is the worst character Pokémon has ever come up. He is literally the worst S*** in the entire anime (though Hunter J may give him a run for his money). He mistreats Pokémon, only values strength and riches and was nasty and demeaning to Ash and took pleasure in his humiliation and in injuring his Pokémon friends. The bloke deserves to be eaten by a Cofagrigus. So it's not unreasonable that Paul would make Ash feel bad, where as Cameron was very civil and sportsman like and he and Ash shook hands and left the stadium as friends. That's the sort of thing you want to see not depression.

    Also the point of the loss to Brawly was to showcase a great deal of immaturity in Ash's character. He lost that battle because he mistreated and expected too much from Treeko whom he later apologised to. He beat Brawly by learing the error of his ways. It's completely different to BW where he was shown to have grown up and treated his Pokémon with love and respect.

    If anything I'm surprised he wasn't more upset about his loss to the Sinnoh League. Tobias totally cheated and he was okay with it. I would have been livid if were him about loosing to a cheater with legendary Pokémon for goodness sake. And yet people give him a hard time over loosing a hard fought battle with Cameron who earned the win.
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  9. #359
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    This battle was atrocious. It really made not only Ash but Boldore, Unfezant, Oshawott and Snivy look horrible. Had Cameron used his sixth Pokemon and one of the four Pokemon I mentioned defeated it, I wouldn't have minded this battle so much.

    Also, what happened to Attract?


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  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridiculous Reuniclus View Post
    This battle was atrocious. It really made not only Ash but Boldore, Unfezant, Oshawott and Snivy look horrible. Had Cameron used his sixth Pokemon and one of the four Pokemon I mentioned defeated it, I wouldn't have minded this battle so much.

    Also, what happened to Attract?
    I sort of agree. Ash's best Pokémon went down rather easily. It could have been a lot better. Having Snivy taken out so easily was a disappointment given she is easily his strongest. I guess Lucario was just too much.

    Overall it's not that bad a result. To have pulled this off it shows Cameron is a strong competent trainer as good or better than Ash. I wonder why people struggle to accept that.
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  11. #361
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    That was cool how the end of the episode was like the end of the league arc in the OS.

    Even though I saw Ash getting defeated coming, I still thought, for just a moment, he was going to pull a win out of his butt right at the last second. Then that Aura Sphere hit Pikachu, and it was all over.



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  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    Overall it's not that bad a result. To have pulled this off it shows Cameron is a strong competent trainer as good or better than Ash. I wonder why people struggle to accept that.
    Actually it kind of was a bad result. A strong competent trainer would know where the Pokemon league is to be held and to bring six with him. Cameron is just an unrealistically overpowered trainer who doesn't know his left from his right.

    He acts like someone who just got his first Pokemon. There is no way he should be stronger than Ash.


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  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridiculous Reuniclus View Post
    Actually it kind of was a bad result. A strong competent trainer would know where the Pokemon league is to be held and to bring six with him. Cameron is just an unrealistically overpowered trainer who doesn't know his left from his right.

    He acts like someone who just got his first Pokemon. There is no way he should be stronger than Ash.
    In fairness to Cameron he did have a team of 6 fully evolved Pokémon excluding Riolu and had managed to capture or train hydrigon. Given in the games they evolve at Lvi64 and are characterised as being brutal, this was clearly not an easy feet. And Cameron did show he was able to battle competently against Marlon and in the first stages of the league. As to knowing where the Pokémon league is held or how many Pokémon to bring - his character is forgetful and has trouble with numbers. That doesn't mean when it comes to actually battling he can't put up a decent strategy. He was able to beat Ash despite being one Pokémon short so it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing. Even gym leaders make relatively stupid errors. In AG Tate and Liza nearly lost the battle to Ash because they couldn't work together and behaved very unprofessionally given gym leaders are suppose to be strong and competent. Even when Ash was partnered with Paul in heart home tag competition they were able to coordinate better than Liza and Tate. So it's impossible that even strong trainers can make foolish errors. Ash wouldn't have know anything about the gyms or places in Unova had he not had Iris and Cilan. Cameron travelled with no one.

    The result was disappointing but Cameron is still a great character and I've stated before I think he should have been introduced earlier in the series and been involved more often. People are being way too hard on Cameron for some of the mistakes he makes. It's worst remembering that Pokémon is still a children's show regardless of how much of a cult following it has and that younger audiences are likely to find someone like Cameron funny. His exploits are comic relief there is no need to take them so seriously. He's no more stupid than Team Rocket were in the first four generations or even Ash himself in the original series (he went into his journey knowing nothing and did not obtain his first few badges through an actual battle). In any case, we've seen a number of situations where one of Ash's or another main character's Pokémon has evolved in order to turn the tables on a battle (e.g. Ash's Tepig). Therefore it's not unreasonable to see another character's beloved Pokémon evolve to get them out of a bad situation. Hardly unreasonable given Riolu evolve through friendship. It just so happened in this instance that Ash was on the receiving end of the power of the bond between trainer and Pokémon when usually he is the one benefiting from it. I actually think the reason the result was disappointing was mainly because Ash had fared poorly in competitions prior to the league and that the story line of BW was weak.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 26th January 2015 at 12:41 PM.
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  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Taidow_ View Post
    I feel the same way. If Ash and co. didn't correct him on the 7 badges thing, he wouldn't have been eligible to enter the tournament in the first place. He would have been in Johto. I dislike Cameron more than Ritchie because at least Ritchie had common sense.
    Morrison had the same problem in AG. He has to rush to get his final badge and nearly missed registration. Ash really wanted his friend to be able to compete and helped him get in. Nothing wrong with that. Cameron put the effort in to get the badges. He deserved to compete. There's no reason to dislike Cameron. He's a nice person with an energetic upbeat personality and a few comical traits. No different to the TRio.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 28th January 2015 at 1:25 AM.
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